Vandersteen Forum

I haven't gotten my robe yet if that's what you mean.

Speaker design and opinions about speakers (sound quality) vary greatly. To say the least. What you like or don't like about the used 2CE may be that you don't care for the sound, you didn't have them set up properly, they were damaged , they didn't have enough power driving them or so many other factors. The 2CE has a stellar reputation that goes back decades and Richard is a well respected speaker designer. Glad you like B&W but someone who replaced those same B&W speakers with Klipsch, Revel, Sonus Faber or another brand might say they are inferior??? To each his own...

brand specific sites tend to accumulate fanboys and girls... helpful for tips if one has committed to that brand, perhaps less useful otherwise 

that said vandys and b&w's are at opposite poles of sound character... so if someone likes one it's hard to imagine they'd like the other

I’m on my 2nd pair of Vandy 2CEs... the latest Signature III. I wanted the Treo CT to replace my 20 year old pair of Vandy 2CEs but couldn’t spend $9k. I guess you could say I like the Vandersteen sound, and Richard has sold over 100,000 pairs of the 2 (that success has generated some envy among rivals, I suspect). So, there are a lot of happy V owners, many of whom have moved up to the Treo CT, Quatro CT, Kentos, 5’s, and the amazing 7. I have a short list of other brands which I would consider if I had $20-40k to spend, of course. Or, if I could afford 2 good systems, there are also some 2-way monitors that I would own too for a different experience.

It’s not a cult... they just make a great speaker (and imo they are a good value) if you like the sound. I have not found a US-made full range floorstander that comes anywhere close to the 2CE in performance for $3400. Not even close. They really shine with true bi-wiring and excellent amplification with enough power. I’ve heard them with a $20K Audio Research stack and they shined, rising to the challenge.

The 2 and the Treo are on this list:
50 Greatest Bargains in High End Audio

The OP was on the Vandy forum and posted some very critical posts-mostly to the effect of how can the speakers be redesigned. He was told in no uncertain terms that he could modify the speakers to his heart’s delight, but the forum would not be party to it. Hence, he is on Audiogon trying to make the Vandy Forum sound ’cult-like’.

Far from it. The forum is for Vandersteen owners to share experiences and learn things they might not have known about. Yes, most forum posters are Vandy fans, we are those that find time and phase correct speakers to provide that ’je ne sais quoi’ that other speakers don’t. If you find ’25 year old Vandersteen technology’ to be so bad, why waste your time complaining?

@2psyop , posted a great reply, as did the other repliers.

@geworthomd ,

Sorry the Vandy’s didn’t light your fire, but at least you found something that does.

And, to answer your question:

Yes, it is just you.

Bob

@gdnrbob 

👍🏼

Garbage in = Garbage out, some speakers are designed to be more accurate(polite) these speakers are heavily influenced by source, amplification, quality of recording, and room they are placed in. Some speakers are just more forgiving making everything that passes threw them sound good or better with little thought to room placement or room treatments the SCM-1 sounds like, pun intended, to be a better fit for your room and your gear "Cheers".

what i've long admired about the "vandy" sound is that they seem to commit sins of omission only. i can live with those. the ones i heard [in an acoustically perfect room, meaning large] were not the last word in definition but they made everything [including old recordings of mediocre sound quality] sound at least tolerable if not 100% shiny. their imaging quality [head-in-vise] was better than average, i could easily get a palpable sense of depth on good stereo recordings. mono recordings came from a very narrow "wodge" between the speakers, that when i moved my head back and forth, smoothly transitioned between the speakers with no lumpiness. i just wished they sounded like that in smaller rooms. 

As a vandersteen owner I will admit there can be a cultish quality to vandersteen enthusiasts. What I will also say is that if you liked B&Ws better that your probably not someone that digs the vandersteen sound. B&Ws tend to be very bright to my ears. Yes, they will sound glittery and detailed but after some time they start to fatigue my ears. They tend to pair well with really tubey warm stuff like Macintosh. For me the vandys are more natural, more real. But this is just my opinion. You have your opinion. Ultimately , in hifi, we each have our own. It doesn't mean something is good or bad, its just our preference. I loved my old 2ce and love my quatros. Vandersteen for life!

I once criticized the frequency response of a past version of a Vandersteen model. Someone called dad to tell on me, which was weird. Poor Richard. 

rmdmoore,

My Vandersteen history goes back to 1991, when I bought a pair of 3A's. At that time, I had the  honor of meeting a very (as I) young Richard Vandersteen. He actually helped load them in my Suburban. The 3A's were upgraded to Signature in 1997. All Vandersteen's must be setup properly and take considerable break-in time  - a properly proportioned listening room also helps! 

I agree with you! My 3A's are very natural sounding and pair well with my old MC240 and C11. I've tried several other high watt amp/preamp combos but keep going back to the 57 year old Macs, eventhough, Vandersteen recommends 100W per channel! Simply put, it's a sound that suits my musical tastes, much as a vintage Oregon Pinot Noir. When I want to really chill-out, I put an LP on my old Thorens TD160, turn up the volume and immerse myself in my private concert hall!

BZ

My first Vandys were the 2CE Sigs.  I don’t know how old they were but I found the sound absolutely gorgeous.  They were the “comfort food” of the speaker world to me.

I totally get when the manufacture’s sound isn’t to one’s liking, but the way you describe them, I’m guessing they are totally f’d up somehow.

So you went to a forum for one particular brand of speakers and they defended and talked them up? Wow. Shocking. 

+1 @gdnrbob 

If your speaker is broken, send it back to Vandersteen to fix it.   Even though its an older model, it will produce very musical sounds.  The Vandersteen website can be intimidating....many on that site have systems that approach a million dollars.  Richard will talk to you for advice and help restore your speaker to new aural delights.  Call him.

O man... the more he posts, the more his credibility suffers.

@stringreen 

Richard will talk to you for advice and help restore your speaker to new aural delights.  Call him.

Richard responded to the OP’s questions on the forum. 

As far as the forum members, which I am one, being intimidating, nothing could be further from the truth, but we do believe in keeping our Vandy’s original, and setting up and using as designed.

And no, I don’t believe there is any member that has a million dollar system, including Richard. Heck, not even @tomic601  😁

Hey bkeske.....you seem a bit touchy.....if you have a system on which you have spent 2 dollars ....you are approaching a million dollar system.  If you actually read what I wrote it was complimentary to the Vandersteen brand.

No, I’m the opposite of ‘touchy’. I tried the best I could to help @geworthomd on the Vandy forum. Others did as well.

Not really worth my time but…….of course we are enthusiasts on the Vandy forum. Most of us seek to learn and help  most of the time, but not always..because we are after all just human, do get gruff.

Lets get somebody’s back and brain back into alignment… How does it go “ physician heal thyself “.

Lets start with 2022 Magnet size…. Here its a bit helpful to have actually paid some attention in Electrical Engineering class. Wondering what’s more important? Guass in the gap or magnet size, or those mysterious Thiele small parameters ? Wondering how that jacked magnet works with a filter network w antitanking and driver resonance control features. Also wondering how those 2022 woofers work with the acoustic coupler ? A mass loaded narrow bandwidth active driver acoustic couple is a pretty rare bird. Not something a catalog engineer will come across often… How will those jacked magnet 2022 woofer blend with the all important midrange driver in a design that pays special and costly attention to time alignment?

Lets be brutally frank, you couldn’t even find the RMA form or sock replacement links and videos on the website.

You got excellent advice; Fill out RMA and send it along w damaged or suspect driver to Vandersteen for repair. Get repaired driver back, setup 2’s per the manual and evaluate sonics. If they are not your cup of tea, sell them.

You got some blunt feedback about what you paid for your 2’s, got your manliness offended round the campfire….and are now here…whining…

Audiogon ; What would you make of a pair of Vandy 2ce on Ebay for $3k and $1k shipping ? Not many valuation arguments to be won round the campfire citing that…

It was hardly WW3…. 

But……sure, i am a cult member…no wait, i guess it’s cults plural.

Quad, Thiel, ATC, Apogee, Totem, ARC, NAIM, Brinkmann, HRS, Aesthetix, Lyra, Triplaner, McIntosh ( 1961 ), Herron

well at least not at the Elk and Pheasant and Steelhead campfires i frequent…

oh yes and Vandersteen, just two pair and the amazing liquid cooled hybrid tube and solid state high pass M7 amplifier…

@bkeske God, i hope my wife doesn’t read this thread, i’m not even close to point five $ M

"In 2022 almost anyones speakers sound better than 25 year old Vandersteen technology."

I guess I should have known we might be dealing with a bulb that is not the brightest on the Christmas tree.

I bought an older pair of Vandersteen 2Ce and did not like them. Found out one woofer was crackling (what I did not like was poor tweeter and midrange). I went onto the Vandersteen forum to see if changing a component or two would better the sound than 25 year old speakers. In 2022 almost anyones speakers sound better than 25 year old Vandersteen technology. 
The replies raised my eyebrows. I was just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with that forum and did they find it cult-like or is it just me?

My set of 2C are about 38 years old now, and they sound fine.

In addition to the other posts about the RMA, your saying that you spent $4k for a used set that and being told that it was too much probably was not well received.

I am on a few of the various cult fora… Here, Vandy, ASR, and others.

I am not sure about your chiropractic work, but you did seem to put a few people noses out of joint.

Anyone want to buy some 2Ce’s really cheap?

Where are they at, and how much?

"In 2022 almost anyones speakers sound better than 25 year old Vandersteen technology."

And… there are many speakers that do not sound as good.

One would think that starting with more knowns would be an easier starting place, but it is amazing how many modern speakers have cabinet issues and a host of other kindergarten problems, that were known and solved 40 years ago.

The 2C are not perfect, but their flaws are strengths are pretty well known.

reading through all these posts on this thread, must say a few elements are surprising/amusing

-- if someone knows they have a blown/malfunctioning driver in a well respected speakers (even a NOT well respected one), why would they not have that repaired first and foremost -- before making ANY assessment or comment?

-- why talk anywhere about redesigning such a speaker without ever hearing it working as it should be, much less go to the brand followers’ forum to complain?

-- all this from a purported MD/medical professional?

man o man...

"i drove around in this porsche i just bought with a flat tire, geez it just drives like crap, so i went to the porsche forum, asked people can this car be made to drive better if i went to jrz coilovers instead of the stock bilsteins... and man, those people had nothing useful to say, just told me to fix the flat, don't modify anything, and wouldn’t engage on anything else.... what jerks..."

"i drove around in this porsche i just bought with a flat tire, geez it just drives like crap, so i went to the porsche forum, asked people can this car be made to drive better if i went to jrz coilovers instead of the stock bilsteins... and man, those people had nothing useful to say, just told me to fix the flat, don't modify anything, and wouldn’t engage on anything else.... what jerks..."

 

Pretty good analogy....

B

"i drove around in this porsche i just bought with a flat tire, geez it just drives like crap, so i went to the porsche forum, asked people can this car be made to drive better if i went to jrz coilovers instead of the stock bilsteins... and man, those people had nothing useful to say, just told me to fix the flat, don’t modify anything, and wouldn’t engage on anything else.... what jerks...

I think that it is even worse than that @jjss49, as the OP was suggesting replacing the one driver with a JBL… so it would be like running the Porsche on 3 Michelins and 1 Pirelli.
But maybe he was talking about using all JBLs?

In your car analogy, I guess that the JRZ coilovers would analogous to the crossovers? So I think one may want to tune the suspension to the tyres?

I cannot see any easy way to do that. I only see finite options:

1. The RMA approach.
2. Going full DIY and wiring each driver in an active crossover scheme.
3. Or totally reworking the passive XO from scratch.

#3 is way beyond my skill.

I feel for the OP, as I would be upset if I spent 4K on used speakers and a driver was blown. And knowing I could have got them brand new for $5350.
But that decision process was not the fault of the V forum.

It is possible that it might have been your tone that set people off?

As an idea I’ll add “a #4” to my previous list of 3 finite possibilities:

1: Speaker driver:

What I would suggest is to get a Parts Express DATS. Remove the driver from the speaker that works. Then once you have measured its T/S parameters, you can find a good candidate for a replacement.

Whether what matches best is that JBL, a ScanSpeak wu18, or something else like a Peerless or Seas, is unknown… but at least it would be a way to select a driver that does its best to work with the existing crossover.

2: Crossover:

You could move the crossover left to right to determine whether, in fact, it sounds the same in the existing good speaker.

MY speakers were $800 plus $400 for shipping. That isn’t as good as one guy who paid $175 but better than the eBay guy who wants $3000. It was Sir Vandicream that was the one who said I paid too much for my speakers so he himself does not value them at $800. Why the heck should I fork-out $400 to $500 to send them to the Vandersteen Factory (including 2 way shipping? Is it not my choice?

I think your post over there may have been interpreted as you spent the $3000 and $1000 in shipping… which was at least how I had read it. Maybe other’s did not come to a similar conclusion.., “I dunno”.

BSPKE is a nice man. He offered good advice and was a gentleman.

Agreed… and I’ll strive to try to be more like @bkeske and Gentleman Jim @tomic601 .

Best of luck with the effort.

It is possible that it might have been your tone that set people off?

duh... 

my oh my...

OP.

With your last rant, what was your intention? Head off global hunger, promote world peace, further humanity, or what???

You seem to have a severe case of "little man syndrome."

Taking haymaker swings at forum members here will get you nowhere. 

Are we being trolled by geoffkait?

Every second 10,000 sine waves are arriving to your ear That is 29,979, 245, 800,000 nanometers in a vacuum If one of the speakers is one inch farther away at 10,000 hz do u realize how ignorant it is to try to put those two signals in-phase?

Something geoffkait would say right?

Just buy the 2CE Sig III and be done with it. Enjoy the sound. The Vandersteen speaker brand and 2CE model would not around for decades if it were not for the fact they are well designed and sound very good even in 2022.

I guess one could argue they are a better speaker engineer than Richard and replace his woofer with a Bose woofer and not ever hear the difference?

The OP likes his B&W speakers, so leave him alone.

We tried to help him, but he had other ideas which are fine and dandy. As Sir Vandicream said to you, as well. 

I just don't get the reason for the issue here.

Yes, they are your speakers, and you are free to do as you wish to them. But, to go on a forum for that brand and expect others to agree with your desire to 'modify' them, and then lash out against them when they disagree, seems a bit strange.

Bob

Restore them to their original condition and then decide.
Vandersteens need a lot of power, by the way. Very sensitive to room placement.

I've had 2CE, 3A and now have Model 5s which are breathtaking, according to most people. And me. 
I called Vandersteen with a question about replacing the batteries in my crossovers and I was told someone would call me back. About 45  minutes later, Richard Vandersteen called me. I was thrilled.

Vandersteen speakers have a sound. I love it. Some people don't. That's why they make different speakers. It's all good. 

Have fun!

As a public service announcement:

Pretty much any driver in a Vandersteen speaker built since 1977 can be rebuilt or replaced by contacting the factory in Hanford CA. There are a few exceptions to this, the model 4 ( note NOT the same as Quattro ! ) , and the custom matched drivers in Treo and up. Treo and up definitely require a call to factory. For a Model 2, as was the DIRECT input given by the inventor, “send the suspect driver in w RMA form, and we can rebuild it.”

Lets also take a moment to clear up some factual errors;

Yes, Richard is extensively involved in designing elements of drivers, including many unique drivers partially fabricated in CA by Vandersteen Audio. He ( not Scanspeak, etc ) holds the Vandersteen unique patents. For fun have a look at the Vandy website, the 5A and 7 mk2 use a Vandersteen designed push pull titanium subwoofer driver, lots of tricks there… Vandy owns the tooling to produce it.

Hopefully all are enjoying the music and beating the heat !

back to my day job improving Quantum computing…. well, for a few hours a week…anyway….

thanks jim, well said, well timed comment... 

 

Lets also take a moment to clear up some factual errors;

I’m unsure whether the OP cares about facts or factual errors.

Yes, Richard is extensively involved in designing elements of drivers, including many unique drivers partially fabricated in CA by Vandersteen Audio. He ( not Scanspeak, etc ) holds the Vandersteen unique patents. For fun have a look at the Vandy website, the 5A and 7 mk2 use a Vandersteen designed push pull titanium subwoofer driver, lots of tricks there… Vandy owns the tooling to produce it.

The OP was stating how easy it would be stuff his drivers in there, and end up with a better speaker

And as I recall RV told him it is a free country and if he wanted to make better speakers he was free to do so.

So I am doubting that the OP is overly enthusiastic about sticking to facts.

Every second 10,000 sine waves are arriving to your ear That is 29,979, 245, 800,000 nanometers in a vacuum.

I hate to be another bearer of facts, but light travels at ~3^8 meters/second.
Giving all the significant digits of resolution and precision is great… but let’s dumb it down to approximations.
- Light travels about 1 foot per nanosecond.

However sound is known to travel only at the speed of sound... which is not the same as the speed of light.

Sound travels about 1 foot per millisecond in air… so it is a million times slower than light, and sound also doesn’t travel well in a vacuum.

I believe that using the correct speed of sound may be an important concept for designing speakers, or improving upon your model 2 speakers.

(Maybe the 2C has the C part referring to the speed of light?)

Just wanted to mention that YouTuber Steve Gutenberg said he'll be reviewing some Vandersteen speakers (didn't say which ones) later this year. Should be interesting. 

He mentioned that he liked previous ones and has known the owner for years and years and years. 

Any forum has its regular Joe’s, don’t worry, just keep at it.

every,forum I started at, was hazed, belittled, poked fun of for punctuation, the brands I like,  their just having fun, just keep writing there, you will fit in.

 Hell,avs, Conrad Johnson, Cerwin Vega, audio circle, all had some smart butt things, it will pass. Enjoy. Cheers.