Vintage Japanese DD Consult and Suggestions Please

I helped my friend find/buy/install a Luxman PD-444, I became so impressed with it, I recently added info about it on this site. Option for a second arm, (one can be long), makes it a terrific choice if you have the extra width it needs. Dust cover down/up/easy to remove

Luxman PD-444, high tech within elegant simplicity

We put long and normal length Micro Seiki 505 arms on his, I may buy one for myself I like it so much, it’s headshell fitting is adjustable for azimuth. The Micro Seiki arm height is easy, hand tightened lever similar to my Acos Lustre GST-801, the wonderful SME arms in the photo are not, allen head set screws are used like my other two arms, Blackbird from NewArtVinyl in Russia and a very compact Mission branded Jelco.

To fit my very long effective 12.5" arm, I chose JVC Victor TT81 QLDD Quartz Locked Direct Drive in a seven layer CL-P2 Plinth which needs more depth, heavy acrylic dust cover lifts off

I highly recommend at least one arm with removable headshell, my rear Acos Lustre GST-801 9" arm has that and unique magnetics, the easiest/smoothest height adjust while playing. Headshell with azimuth adjustment is helpful.

You mentioned SP-10, Yesterday I checked all alignments of the Technics SP-15 I gave my friend years ago, with the EPA-BP500 Base that enables optional arm wands. One option, his, is the S arm with removable headshell, like this:

It has a clear dust cover that can be played up/dn/lifted off

ps, luckily as it turns out, my SUT has inputs for 3 arms; one advantage of the Luxman PD444 is it incorporates a switch for either arm, so only one ’phono in’ is needed for 2 arms.

A very nice QLDD option is Mitsubishi Linear Tracking, with auto start/stop or hands free manual features. LT-22, (other versions exist). Solidly built, I have the Vertical Version LT-5V in my office, it is belt drive, auto start/stop is a treat.

Mitsubishi LT-22 needs repair, just to see it

I helped another friend find/buy one. I had it shipped here, refined all the adjustments, and gave him the option to buy it or I would keep it, he loves it. It sounds darn good. We put a new AT540ml MM cartridge on it. A solid and easy TT, worthy of cartridge upgrade when ready, he went to 15 IPS Reel to Reel, OMG, they blow my pre-recorded 7-1/2 IPS R2R away. You hear what the musicians were hearing in the Studio while making decisions.

Denon DP80 in a DK-300 Plinth is a simple solid option, there is enough availability/competition, a few people have chosen different arms, or you change to ......... I have only read about them.

Thank you for the information. I do not foresee the need for multiple tonearms. 

Hard to discern, but would you state that you prefer the sound one over the other between the Luxman, Denon, and Technics? If so, what are the qualities that make one stand out over the others?

I currently own and use four different Japanese DD turntables (Kenwood L07D, Technics SP10 Mk3, Victor TT101, and Denon DP80), and in the past i owned a few others (especially Technics SP10 Mk2 and Mk2A).  Since cost is an object, I would recommend the Denon DP80 as best bang for the buck. It has two Achilles heels. First, there is a chip that governs speed.  That chip is rare if not unobtainable, so make sure the sample you buy is working well. Push come to shove, I have a few spare chips that I bought several years ago and would part with one.  Most were built for 100V for use in Japan. It is my impression that the chip was damaged in many units used in the US due to running at 120V; it's just a guess. The DP80 also used some discrete transistors that are known to be problematic, but there are modern equivalents that work much better. Best to find a tech with some experience working on them.  Sadly, Bill Thalmann, who lived in my area and was in my opinion the best of the best, passed away a year or two ago.  You might contact his business, Music Technologies in Springfield, VA. Maybe they still have a guy for DD TTs. With any of these TTs, it is wise to have help. In my. opinion also, the SP15 is not in the same league with the others discussed here. I am not saying it is a bad unit, just not as good as the others mentioned, which are all among the best of that era.

@lewm, I am grateful for this information, and thank you for the offer to part with one of your chips should it become necessary. In the event that cost were no object, or my budget was stretched, would the recommendation change at all? 

Once my 301 sells, I will certainly consider reaching out to Music Technologies for their direction and suggestions on this matter.

So you still have the 301. It is my opinion that you should not let it go. Sell the arm off it and replace it with a good basic vintage one for the time being. A Fidelity Research FR 24, an Audio Technica, a JVC, or maybe even an ADC. Sell the cartridge too if its a higher end piece and go with a basic Denon DL 301 II or an Audio Technica. You will never replace that 301 for what you get out of it. Also you are going to sink real money into a SP10 MK II or Denon DP80 to have it restored to where its like new to you. Heck I would even let the phono stage go and use a Darlington, Sota Pyxi, or something along those lines before parting with the table. 

@neonknight, Trust me, I have toiled over this decision and have considered other means and ways to hold onto the 301 in some form. I am resolved to any replacement, Denon or other, to pale in comparison as it relates to aesthetics...sonic performance will take precedence over how new or restored it looks. 

You can get a rebuilt DP80 off of yahoo auction japan through a service like buyee or others, just be aware that shipping costs are high.

a dk-110 or 300 can also be found there.

a dp75 motor unit could be an option, some say there is no sonic difference between the two. (I have never heard a 75) but you can get a 110 volt version. not so with the 80.

I have in various rooms, a Kenwood KD990, a Denon DP60L, a Denon DP47F, a Denon DP59L, a Denon 55K, and a JVC QL-Y7. Keep in mind, most all of this is original JVC technology with various bells and whistles. I also have a half a dozen various others "on ice." First, you have to decide if you want autolift. Then if you want play with various arms--such as the 55K lets you do (or the 80 you are considering) (I have a Unitrac on my 55K, perfect match I think) and if you want a lot of cartridge swapping. And what sort of cartridges. I like lightweight cartridges on most of the Denons. Such as Denon 303, or some MMs, or Grados. But, the 59 and 60 have swappable S-arms to let you use heavier, more modern cartridges. The JVC and Kenwood have removable headshells, as do some of the Denons. The Kenwood has a heavier effective mass arm allowing for some heavier modern cartridges. The Kenwood cuing, arm motion, and build are all very nice. I put it against an expensive VPI for 6 months and sold the VPI (the only belt table I've kept, among many, is the Merrill Superpolytable and a DIY one, both with smaller footprints). The 60, while not quite the arm of the 59, is a nice, steady performer. Footprint matters to me. The 47 and the 60 can get in tighter spaces. As for the JVC, I have a Benz Micro cartridge on it and it has played maybe 15 hours a week  for two years flawlessly, so if you get a good one I assume it will run well for a long time. Some of my many Denons I bought at bargain prices and those needed some form of minor tweaking. Intermittent buttons, or tonearm stickiness, or VTA adjustment/shimming, mis-calibrated VTF, all easily done in less than fifteen minutes. The others have been perfect for years.

Too bad Chakster is no longer on Audiogon as he was a wealth of information on older direct drive turntables and cartridges. You may want to look through his older posts, a wealth of information there.

Chakster had a wealth of opinions that would not let facts stand in their way. But I miss him too and hope he’s ok.

I find this Micro Seiki a good combo of QLDD, separate power supply if you value that, and it has the Long Version of their 505L Arm. Check how the dust cover is wider than the plinth, only a small part rests on two fittings on the sides up front, must have been some testing involved to choose that.

Micro Seiki QLDD Turntable, 3 speeds, outboard controller

I wondered what the holes in the side were for, I found this:

"In 1976, a Hi-End model of the DD100 class appeared in retail. The device had a massive and heavy table, a heavy disk. The DD100 weighed 26 kilograms. A new generation tonearm - MA505 was installed. It was possible to install two more tonearms, including 10 and 12 This was done using bases that were attached to the sidewalls of the case. Five different A-series bases were developed."

I know OP is not interested in more than one arm, just fun facts. I like my arms under the dust cover, not outside as they would be. In any case, the 505 arm has both a removable headshell and the arm tube fitting is adjustable for azimuth, excellent thinking, faster and easier to get right than an adjustable headshell with allen head set screw.

I moved from a 301 set up like you to a less expencive system. After messing around with a VPI, that was a let down, I ended up with Accoustic Solid out of gremany. very nicely made, not DD but very well made and looks the part. i'd look at the classis wood models for something vintage looking. 

I sold Denon in the heyday… not much sonic difference between the 75 and 80 but w best arms and carts, the 80 is better. You can look at my reference system and see 2x DP-75. The factory plinth can be improved of course, especially w better isolation feet - i use an Italian MAG Lev on the single arm TT. The bespoke dual Arm DP has a constrained layer plinth and a full on HRS isolation system.

Lew is correct about chips, etc. Ive had both of my motor / platter units gone thru by Peter of PbN audio. The Denon is a very unique split platter w internal springs and damping, the latter normally requires replacement. Peter is imo a sen master at this.

As a reference, i have a Brinkman bardo in another system… i won’t say the DP-75 is the equal… but for $$$ imo the 75 / 80 can be insane value…

OP

My system and speakers are very revealing, but I don’t hear differences between each different TT or Tonearm once setup properly. At 76 years old, I can still hear differences in cartridges, thus the TT/Tonearm is out of the way enough, doing things right, that’s all I want. Ease of tonearm/cartridge change/setup is important. Perfect speed, immediately and forever please. Accept and hold adjustments please.

My choices, including QLDD for TT, are based on solving/avoiding problems, sensible science, features, for myself and others. Like others here, that path has been partially steered by gifts and inheritance, as well as luck, great buys, friends and random acquaintances, and my ’hands-on mr. fixit’ personality. I am a retired Interior Designer, I specialized in Corporate Office Space, so appearance is important.

I have experience hearing speed variations. Both my prior Thorens TD124 Idler Wheel and current Mitsubishi LT-5V Belt Drive TT in my office require adjustments to speed: let them warm up, adjust, play, check every once and a while, the room temperature might affect the speed. QLDD, on/play all day and night/off.

Sensible science: I believe in the science of a longer arm, which is why I was drawn to my Blackbird which is 12.5" effective, however I would not say I hear a difference, I would prefer it had the features of the Mitsubishi 505L, in fact I may buy one, my right side arm-board can be rotated 180 degrees, I can resurrect the 270mm hole in it (from a Victor 7082 arm, that has a 45 adapter in in now). Both arms are 270/282mm 11-1/8" effective.

I have a second AT160ml on the way here, after I compare it to the one I just got one will go in the 12.5" long arm, other in the 9" acos lustre, and I'll get some younger ears over here.

@laaudionut, I don't have the broad experience like some (lewm) but hopefully can offer some helpful information.

First, if at all possible I would encourage you to find a way to keep your 301 long enough for a direct comparison with whatever replacement you find.  I've never had a 301/401/etc. but they are the top choice for many.  Others prefer a quality DD, so you need to determine which you like.

Second, there is great potential with some of the Japanese DDs such as you've mentioned.  But because of age any of those need to be "refreshed" (parts and calibration) by a knowledgeable technician if that was not done recently.  And sometimes parts can be difficult as with the Denon and SP-10 Mk 2(A).  Some of those motor units may not come with a proper plinth or a tone arm.  So depending on what you find used the costs can quickly add up.

Third, given the potential cost for an upgraded vintage Japanese DD, are there any new options that might be simpler and cost less?  Technics has introduced several upgraded models over the past few years, and there is a new Denon, though I don't know anything about it.

Good luck.

I will not tag all with whom have provided much valued information, but I will state that I have read and re-read them all, digesting each bit your experiences. 

I did see the Micro Seiki that was suggested and that is certainly one to consider outside of those I referenced in my original post. 

Additionally, I believe that all of you are correct that a vintage DD may require more time and money that I have budgeted. I spent some time earlier this morning on a couple of used gear sites and for my budget took note of the following turntables,

Pro-ject The Classic

Pro-ject Xtension 12

Dr. Feickert Volare

Rega P3

Linn LP 12-however I see that Linn, for whatever reason, is a bit of a polarizing brand and more people speak ill of them than sing their praises.

The TTs on your list above are all belt driven types. In my opinion if you want to get closest to the idler drive sonics of the Garrard 301, direct drive is your best bet. Another option is Lenco, which I happen to believe can be made to sound as good or better than a 301 for less money. In my opinion also, the Lenco idler design is inherently mechanically quieter than that of the 301. Re the Denon, as far as I was ever able to determine, the DP75 is not different from the DP80 in any important way, and those two are the models worth seeking.

@lewm, I am aware that those mentioned in my previous post are belt, which I originally thought I would steer clear of. But as I peruse the online ads, I could pick up something more turn-key. I will actively seek out the Denon as well as a Lenco.

I appreciate your comments!

agree w Lew on Lenco…wishing the OP all the best on this adventure…

@tomic601 Thank you. I did just see that someone local here in SoCal has a Bogen, which he claims is a Lenco L70 that looks in amazing condition and has the look that I like. I may see if I can see and hear it in person.

Bruce at Stereo Unlimited has a few Denon and other DD  / belt tables… normally about 20 used IF you fancy a drive to San Diego.

I am in Carlsbad Winters. 

I think you are making this too hard.  Any, that is ANY, Japanese DD turntable would be a good choice for you.

I looked at your system photos…. wow… sublime… I have the smaller TAD ME and a JL sub on the way. With the care / thought you have put in… a measured pursuit is a good idea.  

Lenco made belt drives at one point in its existence, just to say the Bogen may be a re-badged Lenco belt drive, or not. (I just cannot recall for sure.)

Mea culpa. See here.

I have a Technics SP10Mk II, completely rebuild, custom plinth, etc. etc, took far more than $2500 to get it to the point I considered it to be a finished product. I could never go back to a belt drive, went through the VPI belt drives, modified Thorens and others. The drive, slam, dynamics, transients far better with my Technics  vs the belts with it's 100lb mass loaded plinth, Stillpoints, and 100lb mass loaded stand.

Cost is one reason why I recommended a Denon DP75 or 80 instead of an SP10 Mk2 or other, and in this case I would additionally recommend to this OP that he purchase from a reliable source who is willing to guarantee operating condition and shows a history of prior service or restoration. In fact, I would check out PBN Audio, although the cost of one of their DP80s may be out of reach for the budget.

If it were me and I had to get a DD with that budget I would make it a Denon DP80 and get the most cosmetically perfect one I could. You can always get the table serviced, you can never repair the cosmetics on these vintage tables. Some of the Japanese sellers do a recap on them before listing. Then find one of the Denon bases and be willing to sand and refinish. I could see these two pieces coating $1000 to $1200. Now you have 1200 or so for a tonearm. You might be in the range for an Audiomods Series Six. You can see what the used market holds for something like a Groovemaster, maybe you find a Schick, perhaps a Clearaudio. You should get a serviceable table that way.

I’ve got following DD tables Technics: Sl1200, SP15, SP10 MkII and MkIII, Pioneer Exclusive P3, Yamaha GT 1000 and GT2000, Denon Dp 75 and DP80 and a bunch of belt driven tables. When it comes to price/performance ratio I can’t think of anything that can touch P3 and Dp80. P3 is not expensive if you know were to buy in Japan but it will cost at least 3 times more here but D80 is still dirty cheap. In my books the performance of DP80 is not that far behind the one of Sp10MKIII and exceeds the one of SP10 MKII. You can get Dp80 in DK300 plinth or DK2300 (two arms plinth) for less than $1200 which is the basement bargain price for the extraordinary good table. There are cheaper Denon plinths available, but their construction is not very good. DK300 is a very decent plinth but a better option would be to mold your own plinth using epoxy and bentonite. It is not difficult to build one and it will cost you less than $400.

Sl1200 will blow TD160 ( I've got one in my collection and I grew up with TD125 which I replaced with SL1200 and never looked back) out of the water so any DD table that you listed would be a  big step up.   Luxman is not in the same league as DP80,  Sp10MK II or GT2000. GT2000 is another option that you should consider) as it come with a decent arm and you can have it for $2500.

I’ve got a couple of DP80s with plinths. PM me if you are interested.

At $2500 or less, from your list, I would go for the SP10 MKII. Very enjoyable table. If it were me, these days I think I'd just chase a Micro Seiki DD8 in the best shape that I could find. That's maybe $800 and drop a great cartridge on it. This table performs excellent at its price.

Alex, the Pioneer Exclusive P3 is my great white whale. I’ve always wanted one. We visit Tokyo annually because our son lives there. I’ve never seen one in the flesh and for sale even in Tokyo. Even on Hifido. If you have an idea where I can find one, I’d appreciate it.

Meantime we completely agree on the excellence of the DP80.

@tomic601 Thank you for the kind sentiments regarding my system. However, it is going through a bit of a metamorphosis at the moment, and I am hoping to retain as much of its sonic bliss.

@timlub The SP 10 MKII is certainly in play...the MKIII is out of my budget at the moment. Micro Seiki DD8's are available out of Japan for less than $1K...what are your thoughts on the MS DD 100 listed here domestically?

@billstevenson You are likely correct, but fussing is part of our esoteric hobby.

@alexv I have seen a few DP 80's listed on eBay/Japan that look like good candidates, and there is a gentleman out of Ontario, Canada that has some listed as well. Is there a particular tonearm, Denon or otherwise (SME for one), that are great pairings for this table? I will likely reach out to you privately to discuss matters further, if you are not opposed. 

Lewm, I used to travel to Japan for work at least twice a year and I had a customer in Kyoto (I don’t think it could get better than that :) who was an audiophile and he introduced me to a to a friend, used equipment dealer/collector in the area. I was offered P3 at least on 3 occasions and I pulled the  plug twice, unfortunately the  first  time UPS totally trashed it so the second time I took it with me on the plane. Unfortunately, my employer exited electronics business and it was not done gracefully so I'm no longer in contact with these guys. I had some other contacts so I will try to find them and PM to you.  When I was in Japan after Covid in 2023 I did only vinyl shopping in Tokyo  and it was not the same: the selection and the quality went down big time. It probably did not help that it was August, but I did vinyl shopping in summer before.

One thing that I actually never saw in Japan was L07D. One day we should do a shoot out between your L07D  and  P3 as I think we live within 2 hour drive.

I would seek a seller who is willing to provide a history of service and to guarantee that the DP80 is in perfect working condition. Second, bear in mind that most likely any DP80 you find will have been built for 100V AC supply.  That is zero problem here in the US. Just buy a 120V to 100V step down transformer of which there are many suitable ones on eBay.  50W capacity is more than sufficient.  I think I paid less than $100 for mine.  I actually have two such step down transformers; the Kenwood L07D also requires 100VAC input. Do not try to operate a 100V TT off our 120VAC mains without a step down.  That leads to burning up unobtainable chips inside.

@laaudionut In Japan they often mate DP75&80 with SME or SAEC and from my experience both are decent choices. There are other choices and it also depends on what cartrifges you have or planning to use. I like FR arms but they have resonance issues so they need some modifictions. PM me and we will talk.

@laaudionut  When it comes to turntable SQ it depends on 1)cart, 2) tonerm, 3) motor, 4) plinth. 

I've seen a few comparisons when people did it right and matched all components. You can make an educated guess by comparing published specs.

Below it the link to the table that I made a while ago with the spec comparsison of some DD motors that you are considering. 

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/technics-sp-10-mk-ii-and-denon-dp-80-vs-yamaha-gt-2000-kenwood-kp1100.985266/

@alexv has the formula and order correct but depending on room and system bandwidth / SPL ( the op has at present 2x JL subs ) i would add isolation. my plinth is 70# on a 300# rack, speakers in room flat to 20 and spring isolation require d at moderate spl. 90 db peaks. i’ve got 4 arms to choose from on the DP-75 tables, Triplaner Ultimate, Dynavector DV-505, Ortofon 309 Japan geometry 12”, and Infinity Black Widow. Does OP have a target cartridge in mind to steer our inputs ..?

i don’t necessarily agree w shop cosmetics… some parts are as Lew said unobtainable.. PbN charges $75 for platter and about $700 for recap and chip preservation wizardry. I know Peter and always include some beer $$$… hence my fuzziness on pricing.

Yes Japan is supercool. used to get there for work and visit my Sensei… Sounds to me like a sorted or high functioning TT from @alexv is a prudent course…

@lewm ah we all have a white whale… mine is the Big Beveridge….  on a private pirate audio board my moniker is

callmeIshmael

ha…

Come on over, Tomic.  I am running a pair of Beveridge 2SWs in my second system.  Same size as the model 2 and still direct driven by the built in amplifiers but designed for higher SPLs than the 2, so they go down only to 80Hz and require woofer augmentation.  For that I use a pair of full size transmission line woofers that I myself built 50 years ago to match the specs published in Wireless World for a functional TL using the KEF B139 woofer.  A la the IMF Monitor speaker. I daresay that after 10 years, I have dialed in and stabilized the Beveridge direct-drive amplifiers.

@laaudionut from your list I would recommend to look at sl1000mk2. Without tonearm you may find one in good shape, with clear dustcover, fitting into your budget. There are plenty relatively cheap arms’ easily adoptable to it’s original plinth. Advantage of this approach is excellent reliability+performance of SL100MK2 deck! 

Smaller (similar to DP80 setups) excellent ’n’ "audiophile rated” DD oldie deck is Technics SL1200MK4, which definitely will be in your budget range. Advantage of that deck is in titanium tonearm, which I think is still one of the best for SL1200 platform. MK4 is capable 78/45/33rpm speed, and nice RCA connectors on the tonearm base helping to check phono cables.. MK4 was sold only in Japan, and you may need small step-down transformer (such as inexpensive TP-811 japan made one), or replacing original power transformer with any SL1200MK2/3/5 US 117V transformer (obtainable). 

@lewm Ha…i knew you and i shared that. I worked at a Beveridge dealer during the end of the golden years. We carried KEF and i’m definitely a fan of the B-139 in Cantata an IMF alignments..i expect your TL is fantastic. I also knew RM and hold everything he touched in high regard. i hope to be back in SE PA for a reunion in June… will yell if that planetary alignment happens ! best in music to you.

Nice to see the vintage Japan DD fans weighing in here….this IMO is what Agon is for….

@westcoastaudiophile I appreciate your contribution to the thread and will consider all suggestions as I perform my own due diligence and cull down my list.

@tomic601 Agreed! Far too many times as late have I seen posts on this forum go off the rails and off subject and devolve into some grade school behaviors. My only concern is that this conversation hasn't piqued the interest to the point where gear that I might consider is quickly taken off the market.

Instead of all the fretting and worrying about parts availability and service on vintage, why not buy a new Technics or comparable unit. I tend to favor Technics as they have proven to know a thing or two about turntable building.

Well within your budget is the Technics SL-1200GR. Available from numerous online sellers for $2200 delivered (plus tax). No fuss. no bother and will likely last practically forever, given the history of the previous 1200 series.

@llg98ljk This is certainly a consideration as well. Technics appears to offer so many turntables in their current lineup that it is a bit overwhelming. Most resembling DJ decks, which is not my preferred look, however. 

@tomic601 This is why I suggested DIY epoxy bentonite plinth. Epoxy+bentonite has much higher damping ratio than treated wood of DK300. 

Does triplanar sound much better than DV505?

Understand. What ratio are you using and resin family ? i might cast a trial armboard … fun. The Triplaner is significantly better than the 505 and should be… the 505 is an amazing headshell arm imo… 

Best to you in music

I agree that the DK300 plinth is holding back the DP80 a bit. I use a custom made slate plinth. But the nicest plinth on the professional level is the PBN Audio version. It ain’t cheap however. What one could do with the DK300 is to brace it along the bottom with heavy pieces of aluminum and replace the armboard by all means with something stiffer and with more mass. Here is the PBN Audio plinth.

I happen to have a Triplanar mounted on my DP80 but I would not short change the DV505, which is one of two tonearms mounted on my Lenco.