westcoast, JP Jones is a professional in the field of electronics. (I don't know exactly his degree level; he could be an EE or a physicist.) Until recently, he ran a business (Fidelis Analog) dedicated to the care and feeding of Technics DDs. It was my good fortune that he agreed to look at my "broken" Victor TT101, where he found a trivial but near invisible problem (a crack across a tracing in a PCB hiding under a blob of solder and causing a maddening intermittent speed problem) that eluded several other smart guys, and he fixed it. As you may know, he designed and built a PCB using discrete parts that replicates the function of the unobtainable chip that governs speed of the SP10 and lower level series of vintage Technics tables, and yet is small enough to directly replace the chip in the power supply (MN8042 is the chip designation, going only on my memory of the alphanumberic code). Therefore, he was able to test performance of the tables to a level and using methods that I don't completely understand. I bought my SP10 Mk3 in NOS condition, and I did not need to replace the chip, but I did it anyway, because JPs PCB outperforms the OEM chip out at the 4th or 5th decimal place where it probably does not matter much. So I take his comparative analysis of the 10R vs the 10 Mk3 seriously. He owns both.
Tomic, yes the platter is both a virtue and a potential Achilles heel of the Denon DDs. (If anything should happen to damage the tape glued to the inside rim of the platter, I think it's curtains for the TT.)
|
@alexv Thanks for the starting formula. i was an indentured servant in a pattern shop, i am fluent in adjusting for shrinkage…
The armboards on my dual arm plinth are 30 mm Aero grade hardened / anodized aluminum. in the well on the plinth i’ve added Kinetic sand. I’ve got a few wood armboard in work including Ebony root and purpleheart and Panzerholtz. i have a lot of respect for Franz as i run his imo lovely sounding CAR-40.
@lewm i believe a good deal of the magic of the big Denon are due the split platter and the magnetic pulse speed control system on the inside rim of the platter. Glad you mentioned platter. I should probably get an SP-10 of some ilk and muck about with that…
best to all in music
|
@lewm +1 “JP Jones owns both and conducted a meticulous comparison test, using measurements not “I like it”. He shared some data with me, showing no significant differences between the two."
I hear very small, both direction, mostly record and cartridge driven difference, between: SL1200MK4/SL1200GAE/SL1000MK2/SP10R..
SP10R with EPA100MK2 arm wins clearly only on excellent quality records.. for so-so records, there is no difference! as of measurements, it’s the same story, precise/low-noise-dist test vinyls is hard to find, mostly I have are lower quality than best music vinyls..
|
Raul, I more or less agree with your sentiments, but the OP specifically asked about vintage Japanese DDs. Thus he’s receiving opinions about vintage Japanese DDs. As to the SP10 mk3 vs the SP10R, JP Jones owns both and conducted a meticulous comparison test, using measurements not “I like it”. He shared some data with me, showing no significant differences between the two.
|
I love my JVC QLY66F. I bought it a few years ago. At first, I thought it was horrible. It howled like a banshee at higher volumes. I replaced the feet and stuffed as much plasticlay as I could inside the plinth and now it sounds and looks beautiful. It was my main table for some time and is what I've been using with a Denon DL-301 MK2 for the last two years or so to play grade all of my records. I've probably played well over 2,000 records on it now and am on my second DL-301 MK2. When it was in my main system I put some much better carts on it and it responded well to those. It has great drive and dynamics.
|
Dear @laaudionut : I own/owned the Denon 80/75 several Technics SP10 and JVC.
You ask for better sound but TT per sé must has not any sound, it will be " dead silence ".
Now, the Today Technics motor design is a better design that any of its vintage brothers due that the motor drive is acoreless one that not even the SP10MK3 had.
I can't understand wwhy you are looking for vintage DD where you don't have any warranty that be in perfect operation condition and where is really a " pain in the ass " fix any trouble on it when a new today Technics IMHO is a way better option.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
@laaudionut, "resembling DJ decks, which is not my preferred look, however. "
Yes, that is unfortunate and has caused lots of confusion for those looking at Technics products. In fact the original SL-1200 was introduced in 1975 as a home audio product. Through the years upgraded versions were introduced until the time where CDs severely impacted sales. I've read Technics considered discontinuing that model, except sales suddenly increased because it was discovered by DJs which created a new market. As a result the SL-1200 family became known informally as DJ tables due to their dominance in that field. Now many consider it something designed for DJs rather than different purposed home audio applications.
So I considered it very unfortunate when Technics introduced the newly revised SL-1000/SP-10/SL-1200GAE a few years ago that they didn't redesign the overall appearance to differentiate it more from the older AL-1200 series. That also seemed to drag along the DJ connotations, even while a much different design.
I overcame my own "look" prejudices more than a year ago and bought a SL-1200G. I'm very pleased with the build and performance.
|
JVC (Victor) QL7 incorporates their TT71 motor/chassis, which is their third from the top of the Victor commercial line, which was the TT101. Yes, I think it does use a coreless motor, which I like too, but the DP80 was Denon's top of the line commercial TT (excluding the DP100, etc, which were for studio use). Its iron core motor was optimized by Denon for smooth running and very stable speed. Further, the Denon has the split platter which isolates the LP from bearing noise. I would not dismiss the DP80 compared to the QL7/TT71 just based on the coreless motor in the latter. I also own a TT101, and I do like it also. I cannot compare the TT101 to the DP80, because the Victor drives my Beveridge system (alternating with Lenco) whereas the Denon drives my Sound Lab system (alternating with SP10 Mk3 and Kenwood L07D).
|
"why not buy a new Technics or comparable unit” ..because of x2/x3/x4 price vs well performing/built vintage? Also, some fellow audiophiles want to spend some time building systems, aka hobby.
|
Armboard with epoxy/bentonite will be too damped.. Frank Kuzma told me that even polycarnonate amboard would suck out LF from his arms. You can try epoxy/steel balls mixture which would be easier to work with and you should be able to increase loading as balls have much lower surface area than bentonite.
I used polyester epoxy with 1% catalyst and 60/40 bentonite/epoxy ratio. To get an optimal ratio you should cast small samples and watch for shrinkage, carcks and curing. Once you find the otimal range it is very easy to cast.
What do you use on your Technics? Ulike other Denon plinths Dk300 is made from engineerd wood and it is quite stiif. I've tryed to make an armboard out of Al as that time I had only table saw and it did not make much difference to my ears. Carbon steel or bronze would be probably better options.
|
PbN built DP-80 motors / incredible plinths for Lyra… as in Lyra Japan. Those are formidable.. I would say before i upgraded my Triplaner to the CF armwand , etc, especially silver wire the 505 was in many ways the equal… nits…
|
Ba know I. The day I had my choice of Technics or JVC tables and settled on the JVC QL-7. Hands down better tonearm, better motor technology. Also better looking. A Denon DP-80 seemed kina spendy, and there was no dealer within 300 miles. Lots of miles and turntables later, I've got a VPI Prime Scout. It's the only one I thought was the equal of that JVC. I'd buy another in heartbeat if I found one. The biggest difference was in the tonearms. The JVC was simply better in no small part because it was significantly longer and more adjustable. Rumor it was the table used to develop the Shibata stylus whose thin profile made it subject to 'chattering ' on inner groves from tracing error when mounted in the standard 9" (229 mm) tonearm. That geometry was true then, true today.
|
I agree that the DK300 plinth is holding back the DP80 a bit. I use a custom made slate plinth. But the nicest plinth on the professional level is the PBN Audio version. It ain’t cheap however. What one could do with the DK300 is to brace it along the bottom with heavy pieces of aluminum and replace the armboard by all means with something stiffer and with more mass. Here is the PBN Audio plinth.
I happen to have a Triplanar mounted on my DP80 but I would not short change the DV505, which is one of two tonearms mounted on my Lenco.
|
Understand. What ratio are you using and resin family ? i might cast a trial armboard … fun. The Triplaner is significantly better than the 505 and should be… the 505 is an amazing headshell arm imo…
Best to you in music
|
@tomic601 This is why I suggested DIY epoxy bentonite plinth. Epoxy+bentonite has much higher damping ratio than treated wood of DK300.
Does triplanar sound much better than DV505?
|
@llg98ljk This is certainly a consideration as well. Technics appears to offer so many turntables in their current lineup that it is a bit overwhelming. Most resembling DJ decks, which is not my preferred look, however.
|
Instead of all the fretting and worrying about parts availability and service on vintage, why not buy a new Technics or comparable unit. I tend to favor Technics as they have proven to know a thing or two about turntable building.
Well within your budget is the Technics SL-1200GR. Available from numerous online sellers for $2200 delivered (plus tax). No fuss. no bother and will likely last practically forever, given the history of the previous 1200 series.
|
@westcoastaudiophile I appreciate your contribution to the thread and will consider all suggestions as I perform my own due diligence and cull down my list.
@tomic601 Agreed! Far too many times as late have I seen posts on this forum go off the rails and off subject and devolve into some grade school behaviors. My only concern is that this conversation hasn't piqued the interest to the point where gear that I might consider is quickly taken off the market.
|
Nice to see the vintage Japan DD fans weighing in here….this IMO is what Agon is for….
|
@lewm Ha…i knew you and i shared that. I worked at a Beveridge dealer during the end of the golden years. We carried KEF and i’m definitely a fan of the B-139 in Cantata an IMF alignments..i expect your TL is fantastic. I also knew RM and hold everything he touched in high regard. i hope to be back in SE PA for a reunion in June… will yell if that planetary alignment happens ! best in music to you.
|
@laaudionut from your list I would recommend to look at sl1000mk2. Without tonearm you may find one in good shape, with clear dustcover, fitting into your budget. There are plenty relatively cheap arms’ easily adoptable to it’s original plinth. Advantage of this approach is excellent reliability+performance of SL100MK2 deck!
Smaller (similar to DP80 setups) excellent ’n’ "audiophile rated” DD oldie deck is Technics SL1200MK4, which definitely will be in your budget range. Advantage of that deck is in titanium tonearm, which I think is still one of the best for SL1200 platform. MK4 is capable 78/45/33rpm speed, and nice RCA connectors on the tonearm base helping to check phono cables.. MK4 was sold only in Japan, and you may need small step-down transformer (such as inexpensive TP-811 japan made one), or replacing original power transformer with any SL1200MK2/3/5 US 117V transformer (obtainable).
|
Come on over, Tomic. I am running a pair of Beveridge 2SWs in my second system. Same size as the model 2 and still direct driven by the built in amplifiers but designed for higher SPLs than the 2, so they go down only to 80Hz and require woofer augmentation. For that I use a pair of full size transmission line woofers that I myself built 50 years ago to match the specs published in Wireless World for a functional TL using the KEF B139 woofer. A la the IMF Monitor speaker. I daresay that after 10 years, I have dialed in and stabilized the Beveridge direct-drive amplifiers.
|
@lewm ah we all have a white whale… mine is the Big Beveridge…. on a private pirate audio board my moniker is
callmeIshmael
ha…
|
@alexv has the formula and order correct but depending on room and system bandwidth / SPL ( the op has at present 2x JL subs ) i would add isolation. my plinth is 70# on a 300# rack, speakers in room flat to 20 and spring isolation require d at moderate spl. 90 db peaks. i’ve got 4 arms to choose from on the DP-75 tables, Triplaner Ultimate, Dynavector DV-505, Ortofon 309 Japan geometry 12”, and Infinity Black Widow. Does OP have a target cartridge in mind to steer our inputs ..?
i don’t necessarily agree w shop cosmetics… some parts are as Lew said unobtainable.. PbN charges $75 for platter and about $700 for recap and chip preservation wizardry. I know Peter and always include some beer $$$… hence my fuzziness on pricing.
Yes Japan is supercool. used to get there for work and visit my Sensei… Sounds to me like a sorted or high functioning TT from @alexv is a prudent course…
|
|
@laaudionut In Japan they often mate DP75&80 with SME or SAEC and from my experience both are decent choices. There are other choices and it also depends on what cartrifges you have or planning to use. I like FR arms but they have resonance issues so they need some modifictions. PM me and we will talk.
![]() ![]()
|
I would seek a seller who is willing to provide a history of service and to guarantee that the DP80 is in perfect working condition. Second, bear in mind that most likely any DP80 you find will have been built for 100V AC supply. That is zero problem here in the US. Just buy a 120V to 100V step down transformer of which there are many suitable ones on eBay. 50W capacity is more than sufficient. I think I paid less than $100 for mine. I actually have two such step down transformers; the Kenwood L07D also requires 100VAC input. Do not try to operate a 100V TT off our 120VAC mains without a step down. That leads to burning up unobtainable chips inside.
|
Lewm, I used to travel to Japan for work at least twice a year and I had a customer in Kyoto (I don’t think it could get better than that :) who was an audiophile and he introduced me to a to a friend, used equipment dealer/collector in the area. I was offered P3 at least on 3 occasions and I pulled the plug twice, unfortunately the first time UPS totally trashed it so the second time I took it with me on the plane. Unfortunately, my employer exited electronics business and it was not done gracefully so I'm no longer in contact with these guys. I had some other contacts so I will try to find them and PM to you. When I was in Japan after Covid in 2023 I did only vinyl shopping in Tokyo and it was not the same: the selection and the quality went down big time. It probably did not help that it was August, but I did vinyl shopping in summer before.
One thing that I actually never saw in Japan was L07D. One day we should do a shoot out between your L07D and P3 as I think we live within 2 hour drive.
|
@tomic601 Thank you for the kind sentiments regarding my system. However, it is going through a bit of a metamorphosis at the moment, and I am hoping to retain as much of its sonic bliss.
@timlub The SP 10 MKII is certainly in play...the MKIII is out of my budget at the moment. Micro Seiki DD8's are available out of Japan for less than $1K...what are your thoughts on the MS DD 100 listed here domestically?
@billstevenson You are likely correct, but fussing is part of our esoteric hobby.
@alexv I have seen a few DP 80's listed on eBay/Japan that look like good candidates, and there is a gentleman out of Ontario, Canada that has some listed as well. Is there a particular tonearm, Denon or otherwise (SME for one), that are great pairings for this table? I will likely reach out to you privately to discuss matters further, if you are not opposed.
|
Alex, the Pioneer Exclusive P3 is my great white whale. I’ve always wanted one. We visit Tokyo annually because our son lives there. I’ve never seen one in the flesh and for sale even in Tokyo. Even on Hifido. If you have an idea where I can find one, I’d appreciate it.
Meantime we completely agree on the excellence of the DP80.
|
At $2500 or less, from your list, I would go for the SP10 MKII. Very enjoyable table. If it were me, these days I think I'd just chase a Micro Seiki DD8 in the best shape that I could find. That's maybe $800 and drop a great cartridge on it. This table performs excellent at its price.
|
I’ve got following DD tables Technics: Sl1200, SP15, SP10 MkII and MkIII, Pioneer Exclusive P3, Yamaha GT 1000 and GT2000, Denon Dp 75 and DP80 and a bunch of belt driven tables. When it comes to price/performance ratio I can’t think of anything that can touch P3 and Dp80. P3 is not expensive if you know were to buy in Japan but it will cost at least 3 times more here but D80 is still dirty cheap. In my books the performance of DP80 is not that far behind the one of Sp10MKIII and exceeds the one of SP10 MKII. You can get Dp80 in DK300 plinth or DK2300 (two arms plinth) for less than $1200 which is the basement bargain price for the extraordinary good table. There are cheaper Denon plinths available, but their construction is not very good. DK300 is a very decent plinth but a better option would be to mold your own plinth using epoxy and bentonite. It is not difficult to build one and it will cost you less than $400.
Sl1200 will blow TD160 ( I've got one in my collection and I grew up with TD125 which I replaced with SL1200 and never looked back) out of the water so any DD table that you listed would be a big step up. Luxman is not in the same league as DP80, Sp10MK II or GT2000. GT2000 is another option that you should consider) as it come with a decent arm and you can have it for $2500.
I’ve got a couple of DP80s with plinths. PM me if you are interested.
|
If it were me and I had to get a DD with that budget I would make it a Denon DP80 and get the most cosmetically perfect one I could. You can always get the table serviced, you can never repair the cosmetics on these vintage tables. Some of the Japanese sellers do a recap on them before listing. Then find one of the Denon bases and be willing to sand and refinish. I could see these two pieces coating $1000 to $1200. Now you have 1200 or so for a tonearm. You might be in the range for an Audiomods Series Six. You can see what the used market holds for something like a Groovemaster, maybe you find a Schick, perhaps a Clearaudio. You should get a serviceable table that way.
|
Cost is one reason why I recommended a Denon DP75 or 80 instead of an SP10 Mk2 or other, and in this case I would additionally recommend to this OP that he purchase from a reliable source who is willing to guarantee operating condition and shows a history of prior service or restoration. In fact, I would check out PBN Audio, although the cost of one of their DP80s may be out of reach for the budget.
|
I have a Technics SP10Mk II, completely rebuild, custom plinth, etc. etc, took far more than $2500 to get it to the point I considered it to be a finished product. I could never go back to a belt drive, went through the VPI belt drives, modified Thorens and others. The drive, slam, dynamics, transients far better with my Technics vs the belts with it's 100lb mass loaded plinth, Stillpoints, and 100lb mass loaded stand.
|
Lenco made belt drives at one point in its existence, just to say the Bogen may be a re-badged Lenco belt drive, or not. (I just cannot recall for sure.)
Mea culpa. See here.
|
I looked at your system photos…. wow… sublime… I have the smaller TAD ME and a JL sub on the way. With the care / thought you have put in… a measured pursuit is a good idea.
|
I think you are making this too hard. Any, that is ANY, Japanese DD turntable would be a good choice for you.
|
Bruce at Stereo Unlimited has a few Denon and other DD / belt tables… normally about 20 used IF you fancy a drive to San Diego.
I am in Carlsbad Winters.
|
@tomic601 Thank you. I did just see that someone local here in SoCal has a Bogen, which he claims is a Lenco L70 that looks in amazing condition and has the look that I like. I may see if I can see and hear it in person.
|
agree w Lew on Lenco…wishing the OP all the best on this adventure…
|
@lewm, I am aware that those mentioned in my previous post are belt, which I originally thought I would steer clear of. But as I peruse the online ads, I could pick up something more turn-key. I will actively seek out the Denon as well as a Lenco.
I appreciate your comments!
|
The TTs on your list above are all belt driven types. In my opinion if you want to get closest to the idler drive sonics of the Garrard 301, direct drive is your best bet. Another option is Lenco, which I happen to believe can be made to sound as good or better than a 301 for less money. In my opinion also, the Lenco idler design is inherently mechanically quieter than that of the 301. Re the Denon, as far as I was ever able to determine, the DP75 is not different from the DP80 in any important way, and those two are the models worth seeking.
|
I will not tag all with whom have provided much valued information, but I will state that I have read and re-read them all, digesting each bit your experiences.
I did see the Micro Seiki that was suggested and that is certainly one to consider outside of those I referenced in my original post.
Additionally, I believe that all of you are correct that a vintage DD may require more time and money that I have budgeted. I spent some time earlier this morning on a couple of used gear sites and for my budget took note of the following turntables,
Pro-ject The Classic
Pro-ject Xtension 12
Dr. Feickert Volare
Rega P3
Linn LP 12-however I see that Linn, for whatever reason, is a bit of a polarizing brand and more people speak ill of them than sing their praises.
|
@laaudionut, I don't have the broad experience like some (lewm) but hopefully can offer some helpful information.
First, if at all possible I would encourage you to find a way to keep your 301 long enough for a direct comparison with whatever replacement you find. I've never had a 301/401/etc. but they are the top choice for many. Others prefer a quality DD, so you need to determine which you like.
Second, there is great potential with some of the Japanese DDs such as you've mentioned. But because of age any of those need to be "refreshed" (parts and calibration) by a knowledgeable technician if that was not done recently. And sometimes parts can be difficult as with the Denon and SP-10 Mk 2(A). Some of those motor units may not come with a proper plinth or a tone arm. So depending on what you find used the costs can quickly add up.
Third, given the potential cost for an upgraded vintage Japanese DD, are there any new options that might be simpler and cost less? Technics has introduced several upgraded models over the past few years, and there is a new Denon, though I don't know anything about it.
Good luck.
|
OP
My system and speakers are very revealing, but I don’t hear differences between each different TT or Tonearm once setup properly. At 76 years old, I can still hear differences in cartridges, thus the TT/Tonearm is out of the way enough, doing things right, that’s all I want. Ease of tonearm/cartridge change/setup is important. Perfect speed, immediately and forever please. Accept and hold adjustments please.
My choices, including QLDD for TT, are based on solving/avoiding problems, sensible science, features, for myself and others. Like others here, that path has been partially steered by gifts and inheritance, as well as luck, great buys, friends and random acquaintances, and my ’hands-on mr. fixit’ personality. I am a retired Interior Designer, I specialized in Corporate Office Space, so appearance is important.
I have experience hearing speed variations. Both my prior Thorens TD124 Idler Wheel and current Mitsubishi LT-5V Belt Drive TT in my office require adjustments to speed: let them warm up, adjust, play, check every once and a while, the room temperature might affect the speed. QLDD, on/play all day and night/off.
Sensible science: I believe in the science of a longer arm, which is why I was drawn to my Blackbird which is 12.5" effective, however I would not say I hear a difference, I would prefer it had the features of the Mitsubishi 505L, in fact I may buy one, my right side arm-board can be rotated 180 degrees, I can resurrect the 270mm hole in it (from a Victor 7082 arm, that has a 45 adapter in in now). Both arms are 270/282mm 11-1/8" effective.
I have a second AT160ml on the way here, after I compare it to the one I just got one will go in the 12.5" long arm, other in the 9" acos lustre, and I'll get some younger ears over here.
|
I sold Denon in the heyday… not much sonic difference between the 75 and 80 but w best arms and carts, the 80 is better. You can look at my reference system and see 2x DP-75. The factory plinth can be improved of course, especially w better isolation feet - i use an Italian MAG Lev on the single arm TT. The bespoke dual Arm DP has a constrained layer plinth and a full on HRS isolation system.
Lew is correct about chips, etc. Ive had both of my motor / platter units gone thru by Peter of PbN audio. The Denon is a very unique split platter w internal springs and damping, the latter normally requires replacement. Peter is imo a sen master at this.
As a reference, i have a Brinkman bardo in another system… i won’t say the DP-75 is the equal… but for $$$ imo the 75 / 80 can be insane value…
|
I moved from a 301 set up like you to a less expencive system. After messing around with a VPI, that was a let down, I ended up with Accoustic Solid out of gremany. very nicely made, not DD but very well made and looks the part. i'd look at the classis wood models for something vintage looking.
|
I find this Micro Seiki a good combo of QLDD, separate power supply if you value that, and it has the Long Version of their 505L Arm. Check how the dust cover is wider than the plinth, only a small part rests on two fittings on the sides up front, must have been some testing involved to choose that.
Micro Seiki QLDD Turntable, 3 speeds, outboard controller
I wondered what the holes in the side were for, I found this:
"In 1976, a Hi-End model of the DD100 class appeared in retail. The device had a massive and heavy table, a heavy disk. The DD100 weighed 26 kilograms. A new generation tonearm - MA505 was installed. It was possible to install two more tonearms, including 10 and 12 This was done using bases that were attached to the sidewalls of the case. Five different A-series bases were developed."
I know OP is not interested in more than one arm, just fun facts. I like my arms under the dust cover, not outside as they would be. In any case, the 505 arm has both a removable headshell and the arm tube fitting is adjustable for azimuth, excellent thinking, faster and easier to get right than an adjustable headshell with allen head set screw.
|
Chakster had a wealth of opinions that would not let facts stand in their way. But I miss him too and hope he’s ok.
|
