Vinyl***What If***
@inna Agreed. Nothing wrong with anyone wanting to be or being deep into vinyl and all that entails. I just think it is important to understand that the hi-fi hobby in general verges on the ludicrous and that serious vinyl is at the tip top of that wacko pyramid. Vinyl or not, what we all do here is a little nuts. Some of us are a little more nuts than others. And the thing that makes us look even more nuts is trying to defend it. All of this applies to just about any passionate hobby. When average people look at my system, ask me about auto racing, making my own pasta from scratch or my pricey camera gear I pretty much just tell them its a disease. |
n80"the hi-fi hobby in general verges on the ludicrous and that serious vinyl is at the tip top of that wacko pyramid...what we all do here is a little nuts. Some of us are a little more nuts...the thing that makes us look even more nuts is trying to defend it...I pretty much just tell them its a disease." You sound like someone in need of serious expert counseling, therapy, and analysis and I hope you seek such solution, remedy, and resolution of you're disturbance which sounds alarming to me. |
Another + to Bill. While not as committed as you Bill your last sentence sums it up nicely for those that grew up with records and love analog sound. I like the sailboat analogy as well, latch on to a vinyl freak and bang the drum slowly, no need to rush into it. PS My vinyl rig is clearly better than my digital to everyone that listens but would the differences be enough for most in your situation to start from scratch? It will require a greater committment than 300.00. |
@inna- no doubt on tape. The problem is source material and cost. I'm in it for more music, not necessarily always the 'tippy top' best at this point, so I guess I lose a few rank privileges on my audiophile badge. So be it. I'm getting past the point of acquisitiveness, partly because I'm past my big earning years and partly because --while not exactly complacent- I've got other things I want to spend my money on than gear (or crazy priced records). But, alas, that siren call.... My philosophy (not that you asked): if it isn't fun, stop doing it! :) |
Bought an old Aragon pre-amp (with phono stage) for about £350 a few years ago, and more recently upgraded my Rega TT with an old Nottingham Analogue Interspace that came with an RB300 arm on eBay for £400. Added a Goldring 1042 cartridge on special offer at £230. The Knosti anti-stat cleaner was about £60 and does a perfect job - you don’t need to spend a fortune on record cleaners. Other components bought for digital (speakers and power amps) cost a lot more than this, so I know what sounds good, and this pre-loved vinyl set-up sounds awesome and cost £1k ($1.3k). But then comes the vinyl... That’s where the money can go... But vinyl is always my first choice media now. |
Yeah, tape is very tough. I would want mostly but not exclusively what in fact was never released, but there are recordings, I know that. Concerts by certain artists. But I will get reel-to-reel deck soon enough anyway, I will listen to compilations recorded off the vinyl I have and whatever master tape dubs I can get. Good for me that I am quite selective and don't need many tapes or records. I only listen what I like best. As far as upgrades, I do it rarely but when I do it I try to jump as high as I can. Sure, there are other things to spend money on too or simply save it just in case. |
Do i think there are good values out there to get magic or near magic? Sure - in vintage TTs. An old AR XA, with the bearing replaced and a universal arm mount machined onto it (there are lots), can be very high quality. Old arms, can be had sorta cheap, but the cheapest are (duh) the fiddly ones. I have a Syrinx. Awesome. Impossible. The market speaks. Another great old table is a Logic DM101. better IMO than a Linn LP12. But you need a good arm for it. or, get a bargain basement Linn. Find a dealer with a used complete setup (TT, arm, cart) for say $1000. They exist, i bought one as a backup. I have no idea if you feel that is affordable, but for an excellent table, arm and MC cartridge, its pretty cheap. I hear Schiit plan to introduce a "turnkey" table too, with a uni-pivot arm. Mike knows his stuff. Company can be a little hard to deal with, but hey. Now, might you find a freind with such a beast stored in the attic that he/she might loan to you so you can find out for yourself? Of buy a well-sorted system that you can sell for what you paid if you decide its not worth it. But, especially if you have a closetful of records, and a decent system, you will find that it is. |
@clearthink said: "You sound like someone in need of serious expert counseling, therapy, and analysis and I hope you seek such solution, remedy, and resolution of you're disturbance which sounds alarming to me." You are probably correct, but there is an old saying amongst us old physicians (I do a lot a psychiatry) and it goes something like this: "You can't cure a man who enjoys his disease." |
“There is something about the whole ritual of finding a record cleaning it playing each side through that’s somewhat more satisfying then skipping through tracks with a push button or finger swipe. You put a record side on and tend to listen through the whole side discovering tracks you never knew about. You tend to listen in a more involving way, then with tidal for example. You don’t tend to skip parts of a song or the last 20 second to get to the next like you may do with digital (mostly I find I do that sort of stuff when streaming).” this right here, it’s the experience which makes it more enjoyable than the steady stream of sonos background music playing through my home and office all day. |
The reason I love vinyl (apart from the artwork, feel, smell, history of previous owners, used finds) is because in almost every case, my original vinyl copy sounds far better than the CD or Tidal hi-fi. My collection is mostly older originals. But even newer vinyl like First Aid Kit and Aldous Harding sounds better on vinyl. |
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I have two nieces who wanted to try records, and both (independently) bought the U-Turn turntable. They are both very happy with their choice. As they are both just out of school and have limited means it was a good financial choice. I also sent them each a vintage amp to get started. Don’t worry about the naysayers; start low on your budget, and if you catch the fever you just keep upgrading. It’s all about the music. |
@jkreidler, there is nothing about CD or digital that requires one to skip around or cut songs short. It is an option. So too is having digital music droning on in the background. The thing is, there is nothing wrong with either of those things if that's what you like to do. (I don't). I tend to listen to whole CDs straight through......if they were produced as cohesive 'albums' and not just a random collection of songs....in which case I often shuffle them for a change. To me one of the great things about digital, all sound quality preferences aside, is the ability to occasionally skip a song altogether. There are a few bands, The Police come to mind, who produce great albums that are punctuated by one or even sometimes two really awful songs that I can hardly stand to listen to. The song "Mother" on Synchronicity and "Behind My Camel" on Zenyatta Mondatta are two prime examples. Also, "Les Boys" on Dire Strait's Making Movies. Really nice not to have to listen to those without having to get up and lift a tone arm. |
I have posted this before but my partner and I built an expensive phono stage 3olb separate power supply. It is just stunning. I am not a vinyl guy but it crushed our DHT DAC. What a natural sound. Funny thing is we are using a TT with a MM middle of the road shure cartridge on a. get this, JC Penny TT. As I am told, CEC build the TTs back in the day even for Marantz but we were smiling and laughing when we noticed that. Happy Listening. |
John Darko of Darko Audio just released a podcast where he discusses this very topic with Jeff Dorgay of Tone Audio Magazine. Everyone on the fence about getting into vinyl should listen to this. https://darko.audio/2019/02/darko-audio-podcast-14-vinyl/http:/ |
If that link doesn’t work It’s podcast #14 It’s still on his home page as it quite new. https://darko.audio/ |
Hi Freediver You're seeing more people heading toward one source systems these days. One reason is because having one input is better sounding than multi inputs. The other reason is systems are designed to favor one input over the others. Meaning if you tweak your system to work it's best with your vinyl it will not sound as good with your tapes, cds or streaming. Every source requires it's own system setting to get the most out of it, just like every recording is different. MG |
michaelgreenaudio ... having one input is better sounding than multi inputs ... systems are designed to favor one input over the others. Meaning if you tweak your system to work it’s best with your vinyl it will not sound as good with your tapes, cds or streaming.I’d agree that this was once the case, back when LP was the dominant music format and every preamplifier included a phono section by definition. But these days it’s not necessary - or desirable - to tweak a system to offset a deficiency in the source. Instead, problems with a specific source should be resolved at the source, and its connection to the preamp. My system includes many sources: CD, LP, tape (reel and cassette) FM and streaming. And their best, each source sounds remarkably similar to the others. I know that sounds like heresy to some, especially the analog crowd, but once you reach a certain level of performance, differences between the best of the various technologies become smaller and smaller. In my system, the variation in the quality of recordings means that not every source always sounds its best. But the problems lay with the source recording. I’m not going to tweak my system to accommodate bad recordings. |
Yeah, @michaelgreenaudio and @cleeds- I haven't found that to be the case either. My system, which is 'mature' in that I have been using roughly the same basic components in the primary audio system for about 12 years, was set up for vinyl only until quite recently, when I added digital and I didn't have to tweak the system to make it sound better- it was just fine on digital and I didn't go all spendy either, compared to the vinyl front end. I think digital is way more cost effective based on my limited experience with it as a serious medium (as opposed to using it as background, in cars, etc.). I didn't expect it to be as good as it is, but it is still very source material dependent in terms of sound quality; true of both media. |
Howdy freediver. Here is a viable answer to your question. A Bang & Olufsen (B&O) BG 8002 with an MMC1 or 2 Cartridge will put you right there. One great iconic piece of gear for under $2,000.00. No "fiddling", & "easy setup". Plug it in, slide the Tracking weight adjustment to 1.0 gr, push play and kick back. It will make you smile. |
Very nice installment of “The Vinyl Press”, Bill. Thank you. Not meaning to go off topic too much, but re your impressions of the Monster AG1000: The Monster Sigma Genesis 2000 retains all that you like about the 1000 and more; plus the midrange fullness and refinement that you are missing. Fantastic cartridge that seems to like linear trackers in particular. They come up for sale occasionally. My favorite cartridge on the ET2 when my system configuration could handle .2 mv output. |
Try you can get many recordings on CD that you can’t get on vinyl which at least on acoustic ,aka jazz and classical music, is always better . Not to mention if you haven’t gone to at least a few hundred live music concerts you don’t really know what music really sounds like anyway . A rock concert is not live music . |
@schubert : "A rock concert is not live music" I just love statements like that. I've been to symphonies, indoors and out, I've been to opera (in Italy), I've been to chamber music series in tiny rooms in Charleston, SC, I've been to live jazz performances, I've been to live blues shows in dives and sketchy haunts in Clarksdale Mississippi and I've been to a few rock concerts. Take my word for it, they are live. Sure, you can go to a bad one but that's true with all of the above. And yes you can see one in a stadium which to me is pointless. But a good rock show in a small to medium venue is as good or better, to me, as any of the above. Maybe you haven't been to a good show? |
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I just think it is important to understand that the hi-fi hobby in general verges on the ludicrous and that serious vinyl is at the tip top of that wacko pyramid" Thank You (LOL). n80, I love your posts. billstevenson, I sound like you have a wonderful analog set up. Just wondering what $2K digital set up you have that equals or betters it? |
I have an old San Jose bandmate (Todd Philips, who has worked with David Grisman, Tony Rice, Jerry Douglas, Ricky Skaggs, Stephane Grapelli, Joan Baez, and many others, and also as a member of PsychoGrass and The New South) with whom I jammed again just a few years back (after not seeing him for many years). He plays a 3/4 scale 18th Century German-made upright bass (it's huge; 6' tall, taller than Todd!). Mounted on the bridge (that the strings run across) of the bass is an electronic pickup, for situations requiring amplification; the bass can be played purely acoustically (it sounds incredible!), or a cord can be run from the pickup into an amplifier and speaker. How is Todd playing his bass acoustically "live" music, and playing it amplified not? The same can be asked about singing. So, a singer with no microphone is making "live" music, but a singer singing into a microphone is not? I don’t think so. |
Hey Schubert is entitled to whatever view he wants to take on the subject of music. I worked with a colleague some years ago who didn’t listen to any music after the beginning of the 19th Century- and we worked together on catalog and masters, etc. for such luminaries as Bob Marley. I did OD on Marley after a while just cause it was 24/7, but talent? The guy was gifted and took that reggae thing (with Chris Blackwell’s help) to a whole other level, making it popular with rock audiences. My colleague- couldn’t stand any of it. We used to tease him about it. Don’t dig rock- no skin off me. To each his own. I do, however, listen to classical, jazz and all kinds of other stuff, though, truth be told, I like the excitement of a good hard rock band, rock n’ roll, and the passion of well-played, heartfelt blues (most of which is electric, pretty hard to find rural blues played on acoustic instruments these days, but there’s some). Wasn’t Charley Christian the guy who first amplified his guitar to take it from rhythm to lead in a big band? (I’m sure there were others who went ’electric’ before him). Remember what a controversy it was when Dylan ’plugged in’? Joe Boyd has a good story about that- he was the poor stage hand who literally plugged him in. Do what you like. Oh, I forgot the punchline. For my friend’s Birthday, I hired an impersonator to come up to his office as Marley and sing to him. He was really pissed at me. |
Schubert, electric let alone electro-acoustic guitar can sound great, we should not I think take purist perspective to the point of absurdity. Singing in microphone can also be great. Yes, it is better without it, I compared many times. Bill, I like your friend already, reggae is a one tune one rhythm all the time, it's more of a dance than music. And no-one I am aware of plays art rock like Pink Floyd, used to play I mean. Authentic blues, yeah, but I get bored quite quickly, good for the right mood. |
The real point is that it is all a matter of taste. We all like what we like but I'm not going to write something like "jazz isn't live music" just because I don't like jazz or because someone used a microphone. I'm also not going to set a quality standard (for myself) that recorded music sound just like it does live. That can be a fleeting capricious standard not to mention that a great deal of music isn't recorded 'live'. Again, if someone else wants that to be their standard they are welcome to it. There's just no need to denigrate someone else's music genre. |
I did not say it can’t sound good , I said it is NOT live music . Point is , if your system is set for symphonic music in a hall, the hardest thing to replicate in audio , then the advice of less that 2% of the people on Planet earth is of much use to you . I don't like rock because I was grown before it existed and I know it has been bad for both the level of music and society in general . This will never change so hear what you will . |
👍👍 2 thumbs to all that mentioned the entire experience. It is fun to hunt fkr them on a weekend at thrift stores and auctions or on holiday. The albums become prised and cared for possessions. Listening sessions become just that and not background music. It's cool to talk about vinyl with friends. Vinyl is a physical thing and not something in the air like streaming is. You may like it or not ut give it a try. As others I suggest start out simple but with some quality. Rega P3 MM cartrige. You wont need step up transformer Clean records. Have fun with it or not. You will figure out which way to go from there. |
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Regardless of genre, if music is being performed by a human standing on a stage (or a floor, or the back of a flatbed truck) the music is "live". If the human is playing an unamplified acoustic guitar, violin, mandolin, piano, or upright bass, and is singing into no microphone, the music is live. If the guitar, violin, mandolin, piano, or upright bass has a microphone on it that is plugged into an amp, and the person is singing into a microphone, the music is still "live". Whether or not the resulting music is created by purely acoustical instruments and voices is immaterial, for gosh sake! Is the term "live" being used pejoratively? Of course, that is true ONLY if you are at the live appearance. If you hear music only on recordings, there is NO live music, purely acoustic or otherwise! |
@freediver, For your budget, try to find a Technics SL-10. You will never regret it. If you find one with the original cart in good shape, you have a winner. It comes with a step-up preamp built-in so it will work with your MM input. This is a TT you will never fiddle with and it'll get you hooked on vinyl and also, you will never loose your money, they sell like hotcakes. @N80, yeah, we're all nuts! |
Yea BACK ON SUBJECT people.... Still researching,I think it’s the gear that has me interested & not the experience but I'm still curious... The Project Elemental has caught my eye..$230.00 delivered & ready to play with Ortofon OM5E cartridge...QUESTION... Is the interconnect just a standard RCA analogue interconnect & what is the maximum length the cable can be? |
Is the interconnect just a standard RCA analogue interconnect & what is the maximum length the cable can be?Yes, it's a standard RCA That table comes with a cable, try it first and if you need something longer, look at Blue Jeans Cables. Cables for your turntable should have low capacitance and be as short as possible. If you need a longer cable, Blue Jeans LC-1 has very low capacitance. I find all the comments in this thread about whether you should or shouldn't get into vinyl interesting. It's good that people are pointing out things that might not be readily apparent like the cost of the vinyl itself or that you won't really get the "vinyl experience" without making more of an investment than you are, record cleaning, etc. I think your approach is good, you'll figure out if you enjoy vinyl or not without spending too much money. If you do enjoy it, you will most likely find yourself wanting to improve the "experience" and you can then go down the rabbit hole. What I would not do is try to upgrade that turntable or any entry level (around $200-$300) table too much. If you decide you'd like to pursue better sound quality, you can take a big step up buying a used table for $500-$1000, and you can start to get to that "vinyl sounds better than digital" point around $2K (IMHO), and then of course the sky is the limit from there. When you get into higher end tables you don't have to fuss around too much if you don't want to as long as you have a decent hifi shop near you. They mount cartridges and set up your table for you if you get into something more high end. There are some pretty decent higher end "plug and play" options available that aren't fussy, the Clearaudio Concept is one that comes to mind. There are a number of other options. |
