Someone previously posted that most comments on GAN were not using higher end non-GAN amps as comparison.
This morning I took the Peachtree GAN400 down to the much larger Livingroom where I have the amazing Yamaha NS5000 speakers. Here is what I heard compared to the CODA #16:
- the slight hardness on top with the GAN400 is even more noticeable with the NS5000. The preamp upstairs is the Holo Serene and the NS5000 downstairs uses the Benchmark LA4. It is not the preamps that are making the difference. It is the better sounding NS5000 that is letting me hear the hardness on top.
- the sound stage on the GAN400 is not as expansive as with the CODA#16.
- The thump from the low end cannot compare to the CODA #16
Overall, the sound is about 8/10 and the CODA #16 is a 9.5/10. If the CODA #16 had the same top end as the Benchmark AHB2 I would give it a 10/10
The CODA #16 with my LRS+ in the smaller office
- the hardness is totally gone witth the LRS+, same as when paired with the NS5000
- the speaker hits harder with the #16 but not as noticeable as with the big woofers on the NS5000
- the overall amp sound differences are less noticeable with the LRS+ compared to the NS5000. The NS5000 is a better speaker.
I am keeping the GAN400 for a while. Maybe until the next iterations of Class D of GAN come out. This would be for the LRS+.
If anyone is interested, I would be willing to sell the modded GAN1 since it is no longer used. Though a warning, using it is not for the faint of heart. It is bit more complicated.
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This is Not a fair comparison...The CODA #16 is $13,000 W/O meters and $16,000 with meters....and you’re trying to compare it to a $2,000 amp and you say it’s Better...I should hope so...The Peachtree is one heck of an amp for 2K.....But use a Tubed pre amp....I get no harshness at all and a soundstage that's deeper and wider than my Tube amps.
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I never said I was going for a comparison by price. Though price is really BS in audio these days. I just laugh at some of the prices. My comparison is of one of the best GAN amps I have owned vs one of the best Class A + AB amp I have owned. For example, the $3300 Benchmark AHB2 is better on the top end than the CODA #16.
The PeachTree GAN1 after Rics mods is almost as good as the CODA #16 on the LRS+ and KEF LS50 Meta. Not so close on the Yamaha NS5000. That amp cost me $1500 + $600 for mods. The reason I am not using it is I want my analog tuners to be used. The GAN1 has no preamp just 1 streaming SPDIF digital input. The elimination of so much circuitry and cables plus Rics mods make $1500 almost equal $15000 (Coda raised prices).
Of course, better to me may not be better to you.
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I am very sensitive to hardness.....me no likey. I bet my mods to the Peachtree amp would not only address that issue but make it sound better in many ways. Since I modded its cousin, the LSA Voyager couple of years ago, I have come up with a couple more mods to do to the output board (changing the output filter caps to my modded Wima caps and also removing some parts it does not need). Would love to see how far this $2000 amp could sound with a $500 mod.......Who will be the first?
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OK Ric, I will send you the GAN400. I paid $1200 for it.
I had a modded Voyager 350 GAN before. It was much better than stock and did not have the hardness on top. It did as stock. The deficiency with the 350 GAN was the lack of real grunt on the low end. I listened to that amp with the Thiel CS3.7 in my small office (treated). Maybe that low end issue was due to power supply? The GAN400 seems more powerful than the 350 GAN. (LRS+ and Thiel CS3.7 are not easy to drive)
Ric, when I get the modded GAN400 back from you I am going to listen to Sinead O’Conner’s Troy back-to-back on the GAN400 and the CODA #16. That will be my goosebumps test.
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@ricevs.......I'll also go for your GaN 400 mod.....How do we do this.
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The Fezz Audio Tube amps for the $$$ . I have the Silver Luna El. 34 tubes very nice and reliable and easy to use . Can"t go wrong check them out .
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@mc1969 Clearly you don't understand what putting quotes around a word means. The Technics is a GaN FET amp as opposed to so much in this thread which is not.
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So far nobody has produced any concrete evidence that any product discussed is the best. Just more this one sounds good or better to me judgements, which are fine but everyone has an opinion. In that case it just boils down to who do you trust most to help make a decision and then what products do you decide to try based on recommendation.
I’m with @atmasphere in that my experience tells me I can typically correlate good measurements with resulting sound to a useful extent. It’s never a 100% guarantee but I find it good enough to help me make better informed buying decisions. Of course in the end one cannot know what any one component is capable of until it is heard doing it in a particular system. Even then the resulting sound is always a team sport among the gear in play, the room, annd even the ears listening and some teams will perform better than others even if perhaps a superstar or two are in the game.
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@mapman
In the 1980's all the best measuring equipment was supposed to sound the best and now we know that was not true, maybe in 20 years all the current best measuring equipment will not be considered the best sounding equipment.
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@invalid, when I look at measurements, specs, or other objective information, I’m looking as much if not more for red flags ie clear problem areas as I am which measure best. I don’t necessarily need the best measuring thing but I definitely do not necessarily want to pay top dollar for products that have demonstrable flaws or even are not able to justify the asking price objectively.. Nor do I want to pay top dollar for advertised abilities (specs) that don’t measure up. That’s just me. Lots of factors to consider including operational features desired for a particular application. Lots of things sound “good” to me. What is harder is to make smart decisions that maximize value. The bigger the investment, the more careful I will be in order to justify the expense. I think that is a relatively normal thing to do.
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Just buy all the stuff ASR approves of then, measurements don't always correlate to sound quality, some equipment that doesn't measure good can sound very good.
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@invalid No need to be so absolute. I’ve bought many items just because I had a chance and liked what I heard. I’ve also heard many things that sound uniquely good but don’t measure well. If you can’t hear something you have to go with whatever info is available In order to be able to make an informed decision. Otherwise it’s pure guesswork and the chance of expensive mistakes goes up.
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The first person in the world to hear a modded Nilai amp gave me a little feedback today.
" I know I have a lot of break in to go on this one but so far am liking what I'm hearing (replacing a very nice tube amp; too hot in PHX for that right now)".
The Nilai amp is the latest and best amplifier tech from Hypex.....measures very similar to Purifi (both mosfet amps....no Ganfets). It is available as a kit or assembled. Lots of great class D right now. The stock Nilai has terrible wires, output connectors and AC inlet, extra wires and switches and stuff it does not need.....I do other stuff too. You can see the pic of his modded Nilai amp on my site. I will be adding more pages this week for the different amps I mod.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1exMwmlvRg
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However, the majority are still rather sterile and lacking in dynamics.
I am wondering what is meant by 'dynamics'. IME, most of the time when audiophiles talk about 'dynamics' they are really talking about higher ordered harmonic distortion. Dynamic contrast should come from the recording, not anything else.
In the 1980's all the best measuring equipment was supposed to sound the best and now we know that was not true, maybe in 20 years all the current best measuring equipment will not be considered the best sounding equipment.
@invalid FWIW Dept.: you're talking about measurements made 35-40 years ago or so. Just as any other field of technology, the measurement world has vastly improved. IME sometime in the 1990s, we crossed a threshold where we could finally measure a lot of stuff we were hearing that we could not measure prior. But many audiophiles are still making decisions based on how things were back before that!Imagine trying to surf the web on an Apple 2 of an IBM PC...
The problem we have now is almost as bad: most people including those that make the measurements, fail to understand their significance WRT how the ear/brain system perceives sound.
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Dr. Choueri will approve Atmasphere observation for sure...😊
For me the advise of two experts is enough...
The problem we have now is almost as bad: most people including those that make the measurements, fail to understand their significance WRT how the ear/brain system perceives sound.
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@mapman… “@invalid, …when I look at measurements, specs, or other objective information, I’m looking as much if not more for red flags ie clear problem areas as I am which measure best…”.
In this post I think you did an excellent job of rationally stating what an experienced audiophile with a bit of leaning towards measurements would do. Measurements are just one of many sources to learn more about a component, not by a long shot the only. There are things to be learned, but the bottom line is, what does it sound like. Your views are not remotely ASR like.
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I had a Peachtree Nova 300 in the past. Most recently went from my 805a powered tube amp to a set of the class d Atma-Sphere's and life is wonderful. If anyone wants to send me some of their class d's to evaluate/compare to the Atma-Sphere's I'll be glad to do it.
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For design and for synergy measures are fundamental...
Psycho-acoustic is based on measures not only electronical but physiological etc...
To tune a room and to refine a system we need to learn how to listen...
Our ears are also a tool...
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I heard the Atmasphere Class D amps at CAF last year and was very impressed with what I heard. It was a sound I think I could easily live with, at least driving the big and I suspect very efficient Classic Audio speakers, which I suspect are a fairly easy load given their affinity with OTL tube amps, , but do not know for sure.. Then I heard the Atmas OTLs briefly after that and the sound was more similar than different from initial impression. I have not seen any measurements yet to assess, but I would be unhappily surprised if measurements turned up anything of generally significant concern with the Atmas Class Ds. No doubt @atmasphere has tons of experience and knows good sound when he hears it.
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Ok, just for tracking purposes, these are all the amps I’ve seen people list out:
- Orchard Audio Starkrimson Stereo Ultra (as well as their others)
- Peachtree GAN400 (as well as GAN1 and Carina)
- Atma-Sphere Class D
- LSA Voyager 350
- AGD Productions amps (Audion, Tempo, Solo, Duet, Gran Vivace)
- Technics SU-R1000 integrated
Are these pretty much all the highest regarded GaN amps out there or are we missing any from this list?
Since this thread has started, I’ve looked into a few amps. The fully-upgraded Starkrimson Ultra 2.0 seems appealing, as well as Atma-Sphere Class D monos and the AGD Solo monoblocks. I would love to be able to demo one or more of these against my reference electronics, which would be the $40K T+A A 3000 power amp with the T+A PS 3000 HV power supply. This combo has been very difficult for me to best with anything else, though I have found a few more affordable amps that simply have a completely different but almost equally as enjoyable presentation. The T+A stack is one of the most natural sounding amps I’ve ever heard with some wonderful bloom considering it is solid state. It has similar richness to a high powered, big tube SET amp I owned years back, but it outperformed in many other ways in that it isn’t rounded at the frequency extremes and can control just about any speaker out there regardless of load. I love this amp so much that T+A became the first brand I sought when I decided to start my dealership business.
More recently, I have been incredibly surprised with the Cambridge EDGE A integrated amplifier that I got for my floor in June. Its performance is incisive, yet still musical, and it does a wonderful job of presenting a deep, holographic stage. Over prolonged listening, it becomes more obvious that it doesn’t control speakers as well as the T+A stack. There is less bloom, and music at times can sound just a tad more clinical - but to many, it may still may be on the warm side of neutral. For $6500 including a built-in DAC, this unit is a sleeper that I could probably live with.
I’ve compared both these units to numerous other amps, though I haven’t had a ton of Class D amps in possession. The two I’ve played with are a Mivera PurePower SE which uses the ICEpower 1200AS2 board with quality parts and chassis, and the T+A A 200 amplifier, which is the perfect mate for the renowned T+A DAC 200. The ICEpower amp is as expected - incredible control at the frequency extremes with a slightly thin midrange and clinical to borderline fatiguing top end. And despite its power, the output gain doesn’t match some of my other amps. The T+A A 200 is a different beast for being Class D. Built around Purifi modules, the customizations result in the amp having a very organic, but somewhat forward presentation. This amp has more warmth and density to it than a Primaluna EVO 400 amplifier, but I wouldn’t go the distance of calling it colored. It is an incredibly linear amp, and my only wish is that it took better control of hard to drive speakers (T+A does make the M 200 monoblocks now) and that the amp does a better job with depth.
Oh, I did also own a custom Class D amplifier that ran on a very robust linear power supply made with Russian PIO caps, and it was good in my second system when I had it, but it wasn’t a match for other amps I owned at the time. I found out later that Class D amps and linear power supplies don’t really go hand in hand, for reasons I forget why.
I suppose the only way I will know whether one of the GaN amps out there can sway me from what I’ve heard already is to try a few. I’ll admit that the efficiency and control that Class D offers is quite appealing, but I haven’t found any other amps that combine the control and natural presentation of that of the T+A HV series electronics.
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Technics SE R1 plus its SU-R1 digital front end.....someone A/Bed it with the Su R1000 and said it was noticeably better. It has giant linear power supply. The first GaN amp available and maybe still the best? This baby uses GaNs and switches at 1.5 meg.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/technics-r1-reference-system/
You have the Merrill GaN amps.....not much noise from them lately.
Java hifi in New Zealand
https://www.javahifi.com/home
Linear power supplies are fine with class D amps......Atmasphere uses linear power supplies.
Modified Purifi and Hypex amps are great too....and they use mosfets on the output.
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If you buy Atma-Spehere class D mono blocks, do yourself a favor: bin the stock power cables and purchase 2 Shunyata Venom V10 NR power cables. You can thank me later. More/better bass. Speakers disappear easier, improved vocals.
“Cool Blue Reason” from the band “Cake” is a trip. The intro spins around my room and now goes behind my head. Awesomeness!
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Thanks guys. I’d love to be able to demo the Atma-Sphere monos before. Not sure if I mentioned on this thread, but I’ve owned Ralph’s MA-1 and S-30 OTLs in the past and both were quite good. He’s only about 30-35 min from me, so I’ll try to ping him and see what might be possible.
@ricevs In your experience, given your mods, have you found GaN amps to be more accessible to mod vs other ICEpower, Hypex or Purifi modules? In listing the mods you apply, the one that seems to be done on the power supplies or boards themselves are the cap replacements, and everything else seems to be wiring and chassis mount parts, is that correct?
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I found out later that Class D amps and linear power supplies don’t really go hand in hand, for reasons I forget why.
@blisshifi
There isn't a reason. The kind of power supply makes no difference if its properly designed. We use a linear supply in our amp.
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All power supplies have a sound. "Properly designed" is not a static thing. The more you know (by listening tests) the more you know that changing one cap or diode or whatever on a power supply makes a serious difference in sound.....as I stated before, how you mount a linear power transformer makes a sonic difference. One advantage of linear power supplies is that they are simple (especially, if unregulated). So there is less listening tests to do. Switching supplies are lighter and take less space....they also run at higher frequencies so there is no 60 hz ripple to filter but they need high frequency filtering....hence, usually an inductor is series with the output.
I learned a lot about how parts effect sound in the early 80s when designing a power supply for the Sota turntable.....this was a 30 volt pre-regualtor. There was already a 12 volt regulator inside the turntable and all it was doing was spinning a belt with a motor. But every single thing I did to this 30V pre-regualor changed the sound.....even the power cord.......what was really interesting was all 4 power transformers I tried had completely different sounds. What a crazy game this is. So, what is properly designed? Is it something you do with theory or do you have to listen like crazy?.......only to find out later in time there is even a better way to get better sound......it never ends.
The best amps to mod are the ones that sound the best stock. I modded the latest IcePower IceEdge ones.....but would not recommend it or any other IcePower modules......they are not bad....just not as good as: the VTV amps using the Purifi modules or latest Hypex NCX500 modules, the VTV D300 GaN amp, the new Nilai amps, the Orchard amps, the LSA Voyager and all the Peachtree GaN amps. All these sound great stock......and much better modified. Of course, the Atmasphere amps would sound much better modded but usually if someone spends that kind of money they are afraid of mods.....plus they would not be manufacturer approved.
The two main types of mods I do are parts replacement and also parts removal (most gear has parts that are not needed that mess up the sound....for instance, all the hardware on a toroidal transformer........or extra switches, connectors, and wire, etc. not needed). I also damp things, add mass and also can add modified Wima bypass caps on the power supply....etc.
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Im using the NAD M23 love it!!
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How do these various GaN amplifiers perform at low volume (ideally, when paired with speakers known for low volume performance, e.g. horns, BBC monitors, etc).
Full disclosure: as I mentioned in another thread, I heard and very much liked the R1000 driving TADs at low volume, but I suspect that machine, because of Panasonic’s capacity and the Technics brand’s relative lack of cachet, is something of an outlier (and therefore likely a bargain too).
Thanks in advance for any info.
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@oceanandmountains I have a number of customers using my 150W amps with speakers that are 100dB plus, I think one guy even has speakers that are ~110 dB.
I have only heard good things from these customers.
@rajugsw uses my 500W amps with Cornwall IV’s... it’s a room-shaking sound when loud and sounds very good at low volumes too, I can personally comment on this one as I have heard his system myself. Here is a picture of it:
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@orchardaudio Thanks for the info on demoing your unit. That said, it’s the Rev 1.0 unit. I almost bought a similar one from Mark, who contacted you with details earlier this week. I may sign up to evaluate it, but I’d be more interested in trying out your maxxed out Rev 2.0 given the stated benefits you’ve documented on it. I’ll contact you direct to learn more about the differences and see if it’s still worth evaluating the demo unit. Much appreciated!
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@atmasphere Do you think you’ll offer optional upgrades to your Class D amps in the same way that you do for your OTLs? If not, I’d be curious to hear your reasons (e.g. you feel they are performing optimally regardless of cost).
@ricevs Thanks for providing context on your mods. I myself have performed a number of mods, mostly across tube-based equipment with great success. I’ve done similar things as you list - replacing caps or adding bypass caps, upgrading wiring and chassis connector parts / IECs. The reason I ask on the ease of the GaN modules over others was that I saw you mostly modded GaN amps and wondered if ease was a reason, but it seems you prefer to start with quality, and that makes sense.
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Actually, @atmasphere I was just reading the other A’Gon thread on your amps and came across a post on why certain upgrades aren’t made largely because they won’t be audible due to the high amount of feedback you run through the amps. If that’s the primary reason, no further need to elaborate, but if you do have suggestions on upgrades you do offer or consider offering, let us know.
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@oceanandmountains I have a Peachtree GaN1 driving Spendor S3/5R2 speakers in a small room (12'x15'). I love to listed to vocals at low volume - think Melody Gardot - at night with the lights low and a snifter of scotch. Actually, to my surprise, the GaN1 with the Spendors is magic at low volumes. Very precise, but the opposite of fatiguing. In fact, they draw me into the music; attention is very pleasantly rewarded. Best of luck.
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How do these various GaN amplifiers perform at low volume (ideally, when paired with speakers known for low volume performance, e.g. horns, BBC monitors, etc).
I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't work just fine. For starters class D amps tend to be low noise. I run mine on speakers that are 98dB and they work fine at low levels.
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I can’t think of a reason why they wouldn’t work just fine. For starters class D amps tend to be low noise. I run mine on speakers that are 98dB and they work fine at low levels.
My findings concur with that. All my Class D amps are dead quiet, perhaps all teh quietest I have ever owned in 50 years, from my largest and most costly in teh Cambridge Evo 150 (Hypex Ncore) to the smallest in my little $80 Fosi integrated (TI chip) and everything in between including a somewhat older Bel Canto c5i and the 4 in my Vanatoo Transparent One active speakers. Even the oldest and most costly BEl Canto ref1000m 500w/ch monoblocks the Evo replaced were always dead quiet and all excellent at low volumes, though perhaps just a tad rolled off in the high end. These are all with typical average not high efficiency speakers which typically are more sensitive to any noise in the signal.
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I would think low-volume performance in Class D amps is not solely reliant on low noise (albeit that being a huge factor), but also the amount of attention in delivering the appropriate quality and control in those first few watts?
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I would think low-volume performance in Class D amps is not solely reliant on low noise (albeit that being a huge factor), but also the amount of attention in delivering the appropriate quality and control in those first few watts?
The first few watts are always the best...then its always down hill from there as the volume goes up.
Playing at low volume does not require a lot of watts so most any good quality amp should do well.
As I think mentioned earlier, human hearing and Fletcher-Munson is teh key issue for good sound at low volumes in most cases. FInding an amp at most any realistic cost that can deliver enough power for low volume is just not practically a problem.
Now in teh case of high efficiency speakers, where the effects of just a few watts gets magnified, it is more of an issue perhaps but so also is noise.
Easy cases like low volume is where measurements are your friend in particular. That is the only way to truly know what performs best OBJECTIVELY or better than others. Subjectively, anything is possible. A poor quality overly bright amp may sound better at low volume due to aforementioned Fletcher-Munson, but crank up teh volume and be prepared for greater chance of ear bleed.
Fletcher Munson Curves
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Ralph is in in the room. Cool. Met him at Axpona. Great guy with great stories. Thanks to jeffseight for introducing me to Ralph.
As an update. I'm still running Orchard Audio on my Center and Surrounds. I got a killer deal on a pair of Black Ice F100's that I couldn't pass up.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9Te5RTN1NUyC9G3NA
I've also listened to a pair of Atmas-Phere Amps that Ralph designed on a pair of PS Audio FR30's. They are a good match.
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If we're talking THE BEST, regardless of price...Aavik and T+A.
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I tried orchard starkrisen, if you never compare it you’ll like it it is very good but my Hegel h360 is much better
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@nickintroy Which one did you try, Rev 1.0 or Rev 2.0? Did you have one with an upgraded power supply? In what ways is the Hegel better?
Earlier in this thread I mentioned I was impressed with the Cambridge EDGE A. There has been more than one review where it compares that amp to a Hegel H590 which is $12K or so, and it seems the Cambridge outperforms the Hegel. If you’re saying an even lower tiered Hegel beats the Starkrimson, that’s eye-opening and makes me want to drop it from my consideration set.
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I found @nickintroy’s evaluation surprising as I have a number of customers that replaced their H390s with the Ultras.
@blisshifi
The configuration that he used was a V2 with a single power supply and upgraded capacitance ($3050 MSRP)
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Thanks @orchardaudio. I submitted an inquiry through your contact form yesterday, FYI.
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If we're talking THE BEST, regardless of price...Aavik and T+A.
@mbmi What is the sound of these 2 that make it the best. I only know the T+A HV amps (and stack). Slightly warm sound but my ears like my CODA #16 more. I would assume the T+A Class D Purifi based amp is not at the same level as the T+A HV amps.
I never heard the AAVIK.
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@blisshifi looks like T+A makes those class D M200 amps in monoblocks and they sell for $10k. I'm going for Atma-sphere's class D first, but these t+a have peaked my interest to compare them for sure.
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@j-wall I did mention the M 200 monos earlier in this thread. I am a T+A dealer and also have the A 200 amplifier on the floor. I may add the M 200 for my floor in the near future. The A 200 does not sound like a typical Class D amp. It is quite musical, very big sounding, with a wide stage despite it being incredibly linear. Like much T+A equipment, it does a good job of refining the top end and having a very involving midrange. My only qualms with the A 200 is that 1) the presentation is slightly more forward than other amps, and I’ve found it harder to get truly great depth way past the speakers with them (perhaps additional positioning could solve for this), and 125wpc into 8 Ohm isn’t enough to drive some of the more demanding speakers on my floor. The M 200 might be a good solve for this as the extra power may improve the control at the frequency response, which tends to result in a better capability of depicting the sense of space.
For me, I just want to have hands-on experience with some of the later developments in GaNFET amp design. I’m not expecting to be mind blown, but I am prepared to be surprised, especially for the cost-to-performance ratio.
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