Aceofhearts what does your system look like now and are you going to replace your speakers? |
No stereo component functions alone, or at its best with just any others, so always best to consider the key component inter dependencies, especially when dealing with SS versus tube based gear.
Assuming you have a good system already, and are looking to add another built around tubes, I would set a budget for the new system that is built around tube amplification of some sort and go from there.
How that might best play out would then be determined by what your goals are for the system sound wise. Room size, types of music listened to, volume to be listened at, all the usual factors should be considered up front.
If you are just looking to add some tubes into an existing system, a tube source like tube DAC is the most practical place to start. Tube rolling in a tube DAC will provide opportunity to experiment easily with different tubes to tweak the sound and learn initially.
What speakers do you have currently? That would be a big factor in determining whether a change to a tube amp or integrated is a good investment alone.
A tube pre-amp is another option, but I would consider input impedance specs of whatever power amp was to be used with it first before doing that, and only if a analog pre-amp is needed, ie in case of both digital and analog (like phono) inputs. 30Kohm power amp input impedance or higher is probably a safe bet for good performance with most tube pre-amps.
No right or wrong way to start. Just some more likely to work out better sooner rather than later if you always consider the big picture before making a move. |
Studio 1,
You raise some good points for the OP as far as distinguishing in general pentode vs triode tube amplifier options. I like many who ventured from SS amplifiers to tube amps went the route of pentode initially, (triodes came later). These are predominantly push pull and often class AB configuration. This genre offers much flexibility in price, power and many brands and models and can provide very good sound quality when executed well.
Triode specifically directly heated triode (DHT) is another niche, examples are 300b, 2A3, 45, 211, 845 etc. These are used often as SET(class A by default) but also class A push pull. These amplifiers will as a rule have lower power output but offer a different sonic presentation that some will find very natural and life like. Both categories of tube amps have their admirers. Speaker selection is a critical aspect when considering a given amplifier.
Aceofhearts, I'd recommend that you do some reading on DHT and pentode tubes and certainly listening to these different types of tube amplifiers to help determine which type will please you the most.
Charles, |
Revisiting this thread after a couple of days what jumps out at me is how passionate we tube lovers are about our music reproduction.Because tubed equipment "gets" the soul of the music IMO.Do the diehard ss folks gush like we do?Aceofhearts,go out and audition if possible and see if you feel it!Best of luck on your journey. |
Friend
There is descent tube equipment, and then there is spectacular tube equipment. The first thing to do is find a reputable dealer in your area and audition what they carry. I can tell you that there are two main types of Output Tubes - Triode and Pentode. About 80% of all dealers carry Pentode Amplifiers. Other than how the tube is designed - the difference is Triode Amplifiers typically output between 1.5 and 25 WPC whereas Pentode Amplifiers usually start at 40 WPC and can go up into the hundreds of WPC.
The difference in sound in my opinion is that Triodes sound best but due to their low output have less loudspeaker choice. Coming from solid-state it would probably be best for you to look at Pentode Amplification. Pentode can sound great. Just stick with Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, and the other big companies that have been doing it for a long time.
As far as going all tube equipment - it would be a win-win as long as you stick with companies again that know what they're doing. The music just sounds more natural and real. Of course, I cannot cover everything in a post, so first things first - go audition. |
Relax and don't be stupid (get a reasonably powered amp with outputs at 8 and 4 ohms, plug it in, enjoy). Regarding reliability, there are FAR more tube guitar amps than hifi amps out there and they're often mercilessly dragged around, including combo amps with the speakers in the same physical space as the amp, tubes mounted upside down so all the heat goes up into the chassis (nearly every Fender amp ever made), and being used by people who don't care about the amp's inner workings as long as it powers up and doesn't quit in the middle of Louie Louie (more important than your listening room, how many tube amps quit at concerts with 15,000 plus people? Nearly zero...for years and years). Very similar circuits as hifi amps in most cases, but hifi gets the "precious/cautious" baggage attached. I recently had a new "Boutique" Class A hand wired all tube guitar head dropped by UPS so hard it bent the entire corner of the amp (heavy "lunchbox" style steel case) and after getting the kinks sorted with vice grips the amp works perfectly with no tube damage or any other damage. The myth of tube amp failure issues continues, and if you're too weak (disabled and extreme geezers excepted) to schlep a dead amp in for repairs or package it in the original box you should have kept, you're a wimp. Period. |
Relax and don't be stupid (get a reasonably powered amp with outputs at 8 and 4 ohms, plug it in, enjoy). Regarding reliability, there are FAR more tube guitar amps than hifi amps out there and they're often mercilessly dragged around, including combo amps with the speakers in the same physical space as the amp, tubes mounted upside down so all the heat goes up into the chassis (nearly every Fender amp ever made), and being used by people who don't care about the amp's inner workings as long as it powers up and doesn't quit in the middle of Louie Louie (more important than your listening room, how many tube amps quit at concerts with 15,000 plus people? Nearly zero...for years and years). Very similar circuits as hifi amps in most cases, but hifi gets the "precious/cautious" baggage attached. I recently had a new "Boutique" Class A hand wired all tube guitar head dropped by UPS so hard it bent the entire corner of the amp (heavy "lunchbox" style steel case) and after getting the kinks sorted with vice grips the amp works perfectly with no tube damage or any other damage. The myth of tube amp failure issues continues, and if you're too weak (disabled and extreme geezers excepted) to schlep a dead amp in for repairs or package it in the original box you should have kept, you're a wimp. Period. |
"1. Would most people recommend an all tube system, or do you recommend starting with only a tube component or two.
2. What are the relative merits and disadvantages of placing tubes at various stations in a system CD-->pre amp --> amp ?"
The only way to answer those questions is to go out and listen for yourself. If you do otherwise, you'll probably waste your money. |
Most of the tube units that come in for repair from my experience have failed because of poor design. Sometimes not enough room inside, sometimes poor circuit board thickness, and poor overall design to handle what a component should be able to deliver without breaking down. Even some of the higher priced units I see are made poorly.
Happy Listening. |
I would start with a tubed pre-amp or a self-biasing integrated amp. You will be able to roll tubes to experiment with little technical skill. Also Wolf Garcia's suggestion of Jolida which is easy to bias. |
Newbee,
We are all just sharing our individual experiences which surely will differ.
Amp- speaker match is of course a factor, but this applies to "all
amplifiers" not just tube models. Any solid state amp just can`t be
tossed into a system without some thought and consideration.Perhaps my
experience with tube amps were less problematic than yours or things
worked out differently for what ever the reason. I do agree that some
degree of research is necessary to get the right match. I however don`t
believe tube amps are some exotic beast that must be handled carfully
while SS amps have no concerns at all and just work with any speaker,
they don`t. Anyway we`re just two guys trying to be helpful with our
different perspectives, we both mean well. Sorry about your problem with
boat anchors-
high power tube amps, personally I much prefer the low and moderate
power tube amps with efficient easy to drive speakers.
Charles, |
Fair comments Newbee.
I've owned ARC tube gear for almost 10 years. Perhaps I'm lucky, but the only maintenance issues I've experienced related to blown bias resisters. Fortunately, there's an ARC authorized service tech near my house who also happens to make house calls for a small extra fee.
Can't speak about other tube amp models, but I think ARC gear is extremely well built and dependable. So except for the periodic replacement of tubes and occasional bias adjustments, no problems.
Your point about electrical matching has been a vertical learning curve for me. For others who may be interested in tube gear, pull some of my more recent posts. I've raised most of the relevant questions. And our more tech knowledgeable and savvy members have explained in plain English most of the key issues and theory.
Let me at least respond to one point you just raised. It's true that electrical impedance matching between a tube amp and speakers is a key consideration. Having said that, at least ARC uses some local negative feedback (partial cathode follower) to achieve low'ish output impedance.
For example, in the case of my amp, the ARC Ref 150, output impedance off the 4 ohm taps is just .55 ohms; and 1.1 ohms off the 8ohm taps. That corresponds to relatively tight output voltage regulation: +/- .4 ohms off the 4 ohm taps; and about +/- .8 ohms off the 8 ohm taps.
What that means in plain English is that my tube amp can perform somewhat like a SS amp. According to Ralph Karsten's white paper, SS amps typically have very low output impedances and present a constant voltage source to the speakers, a/k/a Voltage Paradigm amps. They produce power by generating current, have high damping factors and tight voltage regulation.
So, going back to my example illustrating the ARC Ref 150, while not a true low output impedance, constant voltage source type amp, it performs somewhat like one. Hence, the Ref 150 may have greater utility in driving a wider range of speakers than a tube amp that has higher output impedance, a low damping factor and a wider range of output voltage regulation.
So ..., as Newbee says, a little more homework is needed when going the tube route.
Happy Holidays.
Bruce |
Charles, Your experience has been fine, but is by no means universal. A major hurdle, IMHO, is matching the tube amps output impedance (curve) with the speakers frequency response. Not a simple issue for most, but especially for a tyro who has no experience with the wide range of possibilities available to him and can easily chose an amp that will sound like crap just because it is a tonal or electrical mismatch. He will need guidance by some one familiar with his speakers, his environment, as well as what he expects tonally. Just determining the type of amp he will enjoy most is no small task. A 300b amp is just one of many possibilities which will work fine.
Maintenance wise, the only really major issue, apart from the quality of the units themselves and their ability to provide long service with out premature failures, is, if one is not a techie and has an amp which blows out a resistor when he has a power tube failure has to truck the amp off to a repair shop or mail it somewhere for repairs. Simple repairs, not too expensive, but many tube amps are very heavy and a PITA to haul about. Now if he were a techie he could simply replace the resister himself. No big deal.
I think telling someone to just 'jump in, the waters fine', should only be given to someone to who has learned about the water, i.e. its depth, temp, and any hidden currents, so they will not just find themselves over their head and freezing after they jump in. :-)
FWIW I have several high power tube amps which are or have been, ultimately, fine boat anchors. ARC, Sonic Frontiers, Mesa, Cayin, and some I've probably forgot.
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I believe the talk about tube amplifier maintenance is often over stated. They are actually quite simple to own based on my ownership of various models the past 20 years. My current 300b SET amp has been utterly a piece of cake to have and is fuss free. Auto bias and just three tubes per mono block. Jump in the water`s fine. |
I bought a new factory upgraded Jolida 502P for a little over a grand, it requires almost zero maintenance (you don't HAVE to tube roll, and the bias adjustment screws are easy to get to on the top of the amp), and sounds fabulous right out of the box. RCA and XLR ins, 4 and 8 ohm speaker outs...all user friendly. Don't be frightened...it's easy...come on in... |
For someone who is not familiar with tube components and their issues, the best place to start is with a tubed pre-amp (IMHO).
However if you're up to getting the most/biggest differences from using tubes, a tubed CD source (or phono pre-amp for that matter) or, especially, amp is best. The source is easiest, just like a pre-amp. It is closer to maintenance free. But an amp is not for the faint hearted. It takes some knowledge in selection and maintenance to make it work for you. The lazy need not apply! :-)
Personally, I would, and for that matter do, use a tubed pre-amp and tubed amp matched to speakers which are easy for a tube amp to drive. My sources are selected independent of the ss/tubed issue and I can enjoy both. A good tubed integrated can also be an excellent choice. I've used them successfully for all but the most demanding 'audio' situations. |
I agree with the above responses, in my experiences tubes have the most impact on the sound when working from the speakers backwards. In other words, a tube amp will give you more tube 'flavor' than a tube preamp or tube source. Now a tube amp also usually requires more maintenance than line level tube products, which is why many use a tube preamp or source with solid state amp. |
Tube power amps can open the door to "even harmonic" slam and are often interesting to look at. I like a seemingly unadulterated, clean as possible SS Class A balanced preamp signal into a tube power amp as that combo seems to work for me, and gives me all the tube rolling I need. Get a transistor and put it next to a tube...note the differences...small dead looking black silicon plug with tiny things in it you can't see, or large glass object with soul and possible craftsmanship you CAN see. Meaningless maybe, but tubes are simply cool and hot at the same time. |
My system is tubed from source to amps,and as Charels1 said the amp has the biggest impact.The speaker/amp matching is vital.I like the flexibility of changing out tubes here and there to improve the performance,no need to swap equipment.Good luck in your search! |
Dan, that was very well said and I agree with your thoughts concerning SET amplifiers. In my experience tube power amps contribute a greater change than just going with a tube preamp(though this is not a bad choice by any means). Get a speaker that mates well with a tube ampand I believe you`ll be pleased. |
I have never had a tubed source, but I've had tubed pres with ss amps and vice versa. I'm most comfortable with tubed pre and amp, but if you have been all ss and want to experiment by dipping your toe in the water, go with a tubed pre as it will have less tube impact. But a tubed amp and ss pre will provide more of what the tube devotees hear. |
My reply is, for the most part, good tube and good SS have more in common than not. In my case, I use a transformer-based passive line stage, a tube phono pre, and tube power amp(s).
It was not until I built suitable speakers for SET amps, that I really noticed the difference between tubes and SS, and push-pull tube amps.
The musicality of the 300B tube has opened up a richer connection with music than I've experienced before. It's something I recommend you experience. If you have a friend, or dealer, that has equipment that does justice to music as done by high-sensitivity speakers, and SET amps, go have listen.
Happy Thanksgiving, regards,
Dan |
