Being a tube person who is trying to put together an active loudspeaker setup , I have come across the problem of choosing the best driver for the midrange and upper bass i.e.80Hz to 2.5 KHz. I would like to try a panel such as a Magnapan but am told that they are rather power hungry. Therefore, I would be grateful if fellow Audiogoners could share your experience in relation to the best powerful SS amps that would not be out of place in a "tube-ophile's" system. Thanks
I second the Redgum rec made earlier. I'm a confirmed tube-o-holic, and very few SS amps can hold my attention. I have owned the 35wpc and 120wpc integrateds and they are excellent. Their sound is smooth, refined, palpable, detailed, and most importantly, engaging!
I sold the 120 watter to a buddy, and he loves it on his Soliloquy 6.2 spkrs. I use the 35 watter in my BR system. Strapped to my DeVore Gibbons monitors, a rich, fluid and relaxed sound results that is just beguiling.
Redgum is in Australia and I believe they've lost their lease and are offering some bargains. Check their website.
I think the Threshold SA-1 monos may qualify. Some guy posted a pair for 15K saying that's how good they sound. I bought a pair two years ago and though I need the storage space, I just can't get myself to list them. They sound so good and 3D like tubes, without any solid state grain.
Mrtennis, your timing of when you heard the BAT amps is off. Before BAT went into business, one of the founders was a customer of ours. They were seen for the first time at CES in 1995. Their SS amp followed some years later; its likely you heard that comparison in '98 or '99.
more on the topic: The most 'tube like' (meaning to me: musical without artifact, detailed, I can listen to it all day and not think about the sound of the amp, just listening to the music) transistor amp is the Ridley Audio amplifier. No other transistor amp is even close; it is better than many tube amps I've heard. It also costs about $100K and employs a heater circuit to heat the output section- it runs as hot as any triode class A tube amp of the same power. IMO, for Maggies, you are better off with actual tubes. Fortunately, they are easy to drive.
second the Redgum rec made earlier. I'm a confirmed tube-o-holic, and very few SS amps can hold my attention. I have owned the 35wpc and 120wpc integrateds and they are excellent. Their sound is smooth, refined, palpable, detailed, and most importantly, engaging!
I sold the 120 watter to a buddy, and he loves it on his Soliloquy 6.2 spkrs. I use the 35 watter in my BR system. Strapped to my DeVore Gibbons monitors, a rich, fluid and relaxed sound results that is just beguiling.
Great to have another Redgum team mate:)
I have a RGi120enr integrated and 120enrm power amplifier infact i have built up a nearly complete Redgum system including RGCD5 dac/cd player and their Rgph2 signature phono stage along with their speaker cable , speakers are a pair of Triangle Antals. I highly recommend them and they are a pleasure to deal with . Lindy ( sales and promotions) and Ian Robinson ( Chief designer) are the best. Cheers Phil.:)
IÂ’m an old Infinity guy. If you mean a tube sound that has a warm bloom, a palpable silky sound with that continuous rounded sound, then many new tube amplifiers do not sound that way. Here is what I have used on the Infinity RS 1B and RS 2B. I use a Audio research LS 15 with two stereo power amplifiers, one being a Parasound for the bass; here, I just need good fast slam, a Bryston 4SST would be best for the RS 2B. The midrange and high I have a Class CA 200, which is not the best, but it is warmer than the Bryston or Parasound. B&K would be an ideal choice so would the Lamm, although Lamm are very expensive and not all that powerful. The problem is you need to think about if your speakers need to draw more power when part of the bandwidth has lower impedance. The solid state high current amplifier is best here because it will offer this. Consider the Nelson Pass products put out double power when impedance is half. The best amplifier solid stake does have this ability to double power and impedance double downs.
The Magnapan newer models I do not know much about. I am similar with the old ones and they were not that hard to push, but if they need this high current ability, then you have to choose a solid state amplifier that will increase power as the impedance drops. Consider the old solid state McIntosh amplifiers; they have taps that you set by the impedance you need, thus they do not have the ability to produce a higher current at less impedance. The only way around this is to use an amplifier that has the most power you need. I think the VTL 250 would be plenty of power unless the speaker you have are very inefficient or you like very loud music. Two amplifiers that I have actually owned that were beasts are the Threshold T 400 and the Krell KSA 250; they hold to class A at a very high wattage, more than the newer ones and they also get very hot and used a great amount of power even at idle.
If you like the more musical not at all grainy sound, the VTL and ARC are good choices, but so are the high current solid state amplifiers. If you want the warm bloom and palpable sound, which I see as tube-like, then The older Marantz and McIntosh is best, even some old tube receivers, such as Fisher is great. Conrad Johnson is what I found closest to this as are any single ended tube amplifier, but they are not current flexible. If you can afford it, try the VTL, the ones that you can run in triode and ultralinear. Consider the cost of some of these amps!
Hifisoundguy - I have heard that about the Marantz from a well-respected industry professional (not a reviewer) who has no association with Marantz. I have also heard good things about their digital. Based on my own experience, I have to stick with my recommendation for the Lamm amps as I posted previously, but I would like to hear the new Marantz reference series.
The most tube-like ss amps in my experience were the wonderful Herron M150 Monos. Great amps, and so liquid and efforless. I would check out Keith Herron's newer M1s too. The Herrons are sweet but not euphonic, and will take control of the Maggie's bass. They just sound like music.
I also love and second the rec for the VTL 450 tube amps.
I am a tube person, but, more specifically, I like low-powered triode tubes (I run a SET 2a3 amp in my system). There is nothing quite like a SET amp to get all the beautiful harmonics and texture of instruments right and to get notes to bloom naturally into space and decay naturally. To me, a lot of amps get the attack of the notes wrong, leading to a brittle or mechanical sound. Many of the worst offenders are actually tube amps, particularly, high powered pentode amps. Solid state amps that attempt to temper the artificial edginess can end up sounding a bit dull and lifeless, i.e., a tradeoff. But, realistically, very few systems can be served by low-powered amps.
For my money, if I need more power than an SET amp can provide, I would first look at OTLs. These are very fast and dynamic, but somehow, manage to avoid sounding sterile and mechanical.
That said, I can, and have lived with all manner of amps. Although I would not say that any solid state amp sounds like a good triode SET or pushpull amp, many are very good, just in different ways. I generally like amps made by Ayre and the few BEL amps I heard also sounded quite good. I thought the Hovland Radia was very good too, though, it was a touch on the dynamically dull side. I've only heard the DartZeel at shows, but, that amp shows some promise too.
I've only had limited exposure to Class D amps (Bel Canto and Rowland). I heard a $14,000 Rowland amp in the systems of two friends. While the sound was not bad, in absolute terms, it was not good either for the money. The top end seems to abruptly shut off at some point and there was something weird about the tonal or harmonic relationships (hard to say what I was hearing, except to say it sounded a bit unnatural). Still, this was an early example of a class D amp, so I would say the technology shows early promise.
Accuphase E202 integrated is quite nice. It has a speaker dumping switch 50, 5, 1(soft) which helps with speaker matching and taste. It was made between 1974-1979. Build like a tank.
I've owned the Lamm M1.1s and thought they were very tube-like,suppose it is the input tube and "class A" operation.I wouldn't see why the 2.1/.2 wouldn't fit the bill.I don't believe it is necessary to go to the .2 units,if money is an issue.I bought these because the ATM-3s were out of their league (best in triode-mode) driving the VSA VR-6 and the low impedance of the woofers.
Disagree on Clayton. At least the S-40, which leans more toward neutrality with a touch of warmth. Certainly not tubey. I've not heard other Claytons. Dave
Spectron Musician III SE mkii with Bybee filter. The Bybee adds the magic - holographic and with a natural warmth that makes me not miss my KR tube amps.
"The Bybee adds the magic - holographic and with a natural warmth that makes me not miss my KR tube amps."
Yes of course, we know it but..... why only with Spectron amps??? Mike Garner of Tweekgeek.com has a licence from Jack Bybee and will install, for money, on any amp.
Alternatively, look Audiogon.com - Tweak sections ,today I saw a few Bybees plug-in which can be used, obviously, with any amplifier
in the context of current production tube amps, perhaps, excluding low wattage sets, a ss amp which does not evince the objectionable characteristics ascribed to the sound of transistors, would connote a tube-like sound.
the "modern tube" design more closely resembles the sound of many solid state amps, than the earlier so-called "classic tube designs".
my experience with solid state amps points to an impression that most solid state amps have an annoying presentation of frequencies above 1000 hz.
while annoying is imprecise, it would seem that when generating spls exceeding 85 db, solid state amps, especially with panel speakers, exhibit an aggressive upper mid/lower treble presentation.
the only time i have actually enjoyed solid state equipment,was the combination of the early avalon ascent or avalon eclipse, mated with rowland amps and preamps. however, i suspect that the avalons, were solid ss friendly.
thus, i would be more concerned about the speaker than the ss amp. selecting a ss friendly speaker may render the selection of a ss amp, much easier, e.g., some of the vandersteens.
Every time I have had the Bybee products in a piece of gear,I have removed them.It does some subtractive tricks,but diminishes from the over-all sound. If you should decide to "try" these,make sure they can be removed. I believe that HP/TAS remarked on this very same subject.
my point regarding the difference between solid state and tube amps is that there is a sonic signature which is evident when listening to solid state amps, which makes it possible to identify the amplifier as solid state. the region, 1000 hz to 3000 hz, is the range which disintguishes the sound of many solid state amplifiers from many tube amplifiers.
there are two questions, how to precisely describe the difference and what parameters to measure.
one of the challenges of audio is the correlatation of (subjective) listening experiences with the appropriate quantifiable variables. i can not specify what to measure, only to suggest that the range covering upper midrange and upper treble fundamental frequencies and their harmonics may be worth measuring.
perhaps, i would hypothesize that there are measurable differences between the harmonic envelopes based upon the aforementioned frequency range which can distinguish a tube amp from a solid state amp.
if so , it may be difficult to find a solid state amp that is tube like. of course, what tube amp would be used as the benchmark ?? would it be a design from the 60's through the 1980's or a current production tube amp ?
i am afraid i have raised more questions than have answered them.
i will conclude by saying that the quest for a tube-like solid state amp, requires very spefici facts, which have yet to be mentioned, including, what tube amp sconstitutes the benchmark for "tube-like" quality, or would there be more than one tube amp, since there are differences between tube amps, and what is the criteriaon for "tube-like character " ?
you can blame tvad fror my rambling. thanks again tvad for reminding me of my principles. i sometimes fall into subjectivity--sorry about that.
Hello Tpsonic, I also experienced some small artifacts in first generation of Bybees products - certainly not with the latest Super Effect Bybees. Did you have experience with SE BYbees? Thanks
I'd like to chime in with Electrocompaniet gear. I use a pair of AW 220's with an Electrocompaniet 4.7se preamp and find the combination to be open and detailed without the sometimes harsh edge of solid state.
I could easily recommend the Odyssey Stratos. Quoting one reviewer the Stratos has weighty bass but more importantly it has a smooth grain free treble and a distinct lack of the upper midrange glare often found in affordable solid state products.
the idea that a solid state amp could sound "tube like" obscures the intrinsic sonic signature(s) of both tube and solid state amplifiers.
its like saying what apple is like an orange.
amplifiers can be recommended which are not offensive but regardless of the sound of an amplifier, it does not have the sonic signature of classic tube amplifiers.
Tvad, I agree, there is no such thing as a solid state amp that sounds like tubes but there are a handful of solid state amps that are less offensive. Can you tell me if you have come across an ss amp that sounds like a tube amp, if so I would love to hear about it.
Personally I will never own a tube amp, tube preamps are the exception. The idea that they are wearing out as soon as they are powered up I find unacptable. If I had ten of the best tube amps ever made I would be more than happy to sell each and everyone of them to the first taker. Solid state has improved to such a degree that there is no need to look at alternatives. I just want to find the best tube preamp & ss amp that work well together
tvad, you make a good point regarding the concept of "tube" sound.
perhaps we could be more specific about what we are looking for, using nouns, rather than adjectives.
if one is looking for a solid state amp having specific sonic attributes, why not state what the adjectives may be rather than use an ambiguous adjective ?
while i would own several tube amplifiers, i have heard several solid state amplifiers. i object to the upper midrange/treble response . i think it is odd order harmonic distortion. i'm not sure exactly what is the cause, but unless there is a change in design, i find solid state amps and panel speakersa not synergistic.
have wavelength's 300b's mono's 45 tube's mono's ,have mcintosh mc-402 now,tube sound lots of air under voice's,its one of a kind very high quality amp here,and no tube's you have to deal with,the best soild amp that i have has in my house,and will not sale this one,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,playing with jbl l-300 speakers
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