It would appear that there is really very little to be heard between 20 and 40 Hz. Yet having true "full range" speakers is often the test of a great speaker. Does anyone beside me think that there is little to be gained by stretching the speakers bass performance below 30-40 cycles? My own speakers make no apologies for going down to only 28 Hz and they are big floor standers JM Lab Electra 936s.
It is commonly said that a large driver, say 15", is "slow" because its cone is so heavy. Nonsense! My 15" drivers have huge magnets and 4" voice coils, and the strength of that "motor" greatly exceeds the effect of increased cone mass.
Pressurization in lowest octave is what your trying to achieve. Once experienced in your system its hard to enjoy one that doesn't pressure lock. Most all do not and most subwoofers will not pressurize your listening space. One needs massive bass systems multiple subs or the best way massive bass horns. But this pressure is what brings excitement gestalt to your system can stand the hairs up on your neck. think about it like this is a stampede produces lots of infra sound as do earthquakes and trains would these sound or feel as impressive if limited to 40hz?
I'm sure sound without bass would not be very enjoyable, not sure that was Larryi's recommendation - certainly a speaker that produces clean bass down to 35- 40hz (-2db) is sufficient to reproduce "sound with bass", in fact there are many world-class speakers (many British)that do just that and are rightly considered "HiFi" and ideal for most domestic-sized rooms.
I disagree with Larryi, The trade off is what you hear without deep bass not what you hear with deep bass. Sure, you might hear some interesting detail in the mids and highs when the system is lacking deep bass, but is it right?
HiFi means reproducing sound as near to the original sound as possible. It does not mean reproducing sound without bass.
Great thread! I have heard deep bass live but not well done with home systems. The bass I have heard in home systems has been somewhat boomy and difficult to integrate. Also, the price for great home bass has always seemed prohibitive and difficult to crowd into a shared living room(WAF)and difficult to tune in. That said, what drew me to audio was crystal clear mids and highs... and the stand up bass of Christian McBride and others and the kettle drum of Hotel California and a great woody cello of Bach's solo sonatas. I have found that for me a 40-45 hz speaker like the Triangle Celius with a tubed amp can do great highs and mids and, for me, satisfying lows. I do turn up the volume if I want to hear the kettle drum, however. The novelty of gut thumping bass has worn off for me as I have gotten older (62). The pain of turning on and off a sub has become less interesting as well. (Thanks, Elizabeth). I may have become more of a romantic and will need to turn in my guy credentials but have come to love the mid and high registers of solo piano and violin. I am satisfied for now. That could change but it seems now like too much trouble to try to reproduce the low end... and I have more money to buy good music and attend symphonies and live performances. I suppose it becomes more about contentment. NRCHY once said here in 04/02/2005 "Perfect sound is not attainable. Many have written long posts on whether live music is a good objective standard. In my opinion it is not. The only time a system will sound great is when the owner/listener has determined to be content. The concept of contentment is a little esoteric or nebulous to many people. Contentment is a choice and not the result of a great system. People may choose an ideal they can never obtain while ignoring contentment which everyone can possess. The same concept applies to many facets of life... choosing an ideal not obtainable while ignoring contentment." ( Expensive cars, deep bass, relationships, physical attributes, and all the other things that have been listed.). John
Just saw this interesting thread. Mechan, you are basically correct, as are Elizabeth and Shadorne (who I must agree with in particular - what way too many audiophiles call "deep bass" is actually distortion). The vast majority of music happens within what audiophiles refer to as the "midrange." Almost none of it, especially if we are talking acoustic instruments, happens below 40Hz. That said, Mapman and Tvad are also correct about the physical impact of an extremely low bass tone, for instance the organ at the opening of Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra. In a great concert hall, this will have a very physical impact - even up in the nosebleed seats, in a hall with really good bass response. However, this experience cannot be replicated in a home system, no matter how good it is, or how low the bass goes - unless you happen to live in the concert hall. You have to buy a ticket to experience that kind of truly deep bass.
Several posts up I think someone mentioned that larger drivers are not as effecient as smaller drivers which make them require a much larger amp.
I have always thought that larger speakers are more effecient, like compare a JL 8w7 at 82.7db to a JL 13w7 at 86.3db
Or a Exodus Audio 12in sub at 85.1db vs their 21in driver at 89.6db......
Seems like the days of effecient drivers are over
The larger drivers do have a bit more mass to get moving however they also do not have nearly as far to travel to reproduce the same sound of the smaller driver.
A friend plays the pipe organ, I often attend his practice sessions. No reproduction even come close to the power of such an instrument, however-the organ produces enormous amounts of noise. There is the air rushing through the pipes, the sounds of the mechanical opening and closing of swell doors,not to mention the opening and closing of valves, the operation of compressors..... An orchestra on stage is also the venue of extraneous noises. At a concert we ignore these noises, yet they can make up an important part of the experience we remember. Until recent years I did not realize how many of the noises were recorded and reproducible on modern equipment. Sometimes they add a great deal to the sense of realism- sometimes not. Those of us fortunate enough to not have to worry about our neighbors hearing our systems have a real advantage in this area.
i believe the lower the frequencies go in a loudspeaker, providing it does it cleanly w/out distortion, adds body and foundation to all music. frequencies have fundamentals that are lower then the frequency itself. you mentioned your speakers go down to 28 htz, at how many db's down? distortion and sound pressure levels play a role in low frequencies. for example: my speakers with a 2.5 watt electric input will generate 100db sound pressure level at 4 ft. second harmonic distortion at 40htz 0.5%.
I think Mapman's quote re:T-Rex was illustrative. My point was that, if you hear an elephant or hippo in the 'hood, it would be a good idea to go the other way - as these animals will cause damage to your person. Rhinos, not so much.
If "predator" was too narrow a noun, mea culpa. In any event, I was just speculating on the origins of a phenomenon that many report.
The reason most hifi home audio gear has almost always been spec'ed from 20hz-20000khz is because that covers the useful range in the audio spectrum that people can generally hear.
Individual hearing ability varies though. Many cannot hear this full range and some may be able to hear even more, but these are fairly rare and extreme outlier cases.
Many recordings have little or no content towards the extremes. Some good ones do though.
Put the common limits of human ears and the recordings played together and the cases where a low end of consequence exists, can be heard and the listener actually cares are relatively few.
If you care, in general you will pay a premium of some sort generally to enable it in a home system in a quality manner that does not negatively impact all the other good stuff.
I see the value in having clean bass down to 20hz, and I agree that much of the value comes from the sense of venue that those very low frequencies can provide, and if could have it without tradeoffs that would be great, but there are tradeoffs indeed and Larryi articulated them very well. It took me a long time to break away from the obsession and accept that in many ways the Merlin VSMs with a brick wall at 28hz and a sharp drop off at 32hz were more musically satisfying that my previous speakers that were +/-3db at 20Hz. I would take that extra bass if I would not loose that Merlin midrange and resolution and the ability to run with a relatively low-power OTL, but I have not found a speaker like that. The benefits of deep bass are real, but so are the liabilities that come along with speakers that can do the deep bass thing. Perhaps with some price-no-object gear you can have it all, but at relatively real world prices I would seek to compromise some of that deep bass for other values. The fact that I listen to acoustic jazz 90% of the time I'm sure has something to do with that perspective.
In my glance, I noticed that nobody mention SPL levels. Just because a speaker can go down to 30hz, does not mean it can do so with any authority or cleanly at listening levels. I can build a 5 1/4" subwoofer that will go down to 20hz, but it will only do it at 60dbs or so. To get 100 dbs at 40hz takes at least a single 12" subwoofer with pretty good excursion.
Many high end speakers at decent volume levels will play the 2nd order harmonic nearly as loud as the first. So often what people mistake as hearing as 30hz bass is the 60hz harmonic. In most acoustic music there isn't a lot of bass below 40hz,but you do get ambience from the sub bass of the room when you have speaker that reproduce it.
As far as obsessed, you haven't seen anything. Go over to the AVS forums and see what those nutballs are doing. Most want to be able to produce 115dbs at 20hz and some are getting 120dbs at 10hz. They are now pushing below the 10hz level, some as low as 5-6hz. Whatever you do over there, don't mention anything about amps sounding different or cables, you will get piled on.
Why the obsession? Everything discussed in this forum is about obsession.
I like deep, but not too deep bass. In fact I like to have a upward tilt in frequency response below 40Hz. It sounds good to me. But what I have discovered from looking at countless spectrograms of popular music recordings is that there really isn't that much information below about 40-60Hz. As long as the harmonics are present, the ear/brain fills in the "missing" fundamental. However, if the recording actually has true low frequency content, then I like to hear it.
My system goes down to 25Hz and then steeply drops off. Are some people saying that there's musical info below 20Hz?
One last point, humans had not evolved when dinosaurs existed. Human hearing is not at all sensitive to low frequencies, witness the Fletcher-Munson curves. Humans are most sensitive to upper midrange sounds. Think about it.
As far as the lowest octave, Cmon general question for all of you.
How many of you actually got into this in the beginning the very begining. You didnt hear airy and transparent highs and glorious midrange that got you in when you were a kid. It was the bass right. Playing your music LOUD rocking out.
Who can say they honestly didnt go wow, a speaker can do that, no freakin way!!!
I can honestly say that what I believe you are describing here did not impress me as a kid, and I was not interested in speakers that had copious distorted bass, vs those that offered some sense of clarity, honesty and what I now would call musicality (though back then I would have said they just sound more 'real'). The first time I recall being really wowed by a speaker was a pair of Quad 57's which were hardly capable of the bass we're talking about here. So I guess I'm a freak.
My experience is a limited one, but here it is: I had a pair of Kef Reference IIIs for several years, and loved them; I think the floor on them is something like 40 hz. Very fine controlled bass. Then I got a pair of von Schweikert VR4 gen iiis., which have a floor of 20 hz. What I noticed was, as Tvad suggests, something nearly physical, in particular when listening to, say, the acoustic bass of Arild Anderson: it's the thud under the low notes that I really heard--or felt--for the first time. Then there is the orchestral/choral music of Arvo Part. In any case, I can't be sure whether it was the 20hz that made the difference, the speaker design apart from the 20hz floor), or the different flavor of the two speakers from 40hz and higher. But the vrs broadened the lower spectrum, and I'm speaking as someone who doesn't go in for cranked up bass that smears everything into a mess.
I just want to emulate my first car system that had 2 12's in a tiny saturn, Later a competition 15" sub where it sounds good (I thought it sounded good back then)
Football, fast cars, big tits, curvy ass babes, big stereos, "hard' rocking bass
This is what this all about. I dont care what anyone says, Its a little of showing off to ourselves more than anyone. Sure its an awesome hobby but I dont care how into SET amps you are we all look at the Mcintosh gear with the green lights and go thats purty. I personally like big black "ugly" boxes that I think are beautiful, Luckily I have still been able to keep "Curvy ass babes with big tits" around, they always want to change everything when they move in but I always stand my ground, never mind I once settled on a Pathos integrated, She wanted me to get the 3 watt shangling CD Reciever and use it by itself WITH 3 WATTS!!! I guess I won and lost that battle (She eventually moved out)
As far as the lowest octave, Cmon general question for all of you.
How many of you actually got into this in the beginning the very begining. You didnt hear airy and transparent highs and glorious midrange that got you in when you were a kid. It was the bass right. Playing your music LOUD rocking out.
Who can say they honestly didnt go wow, a speaker can do that, no freakin way!!!
As a card-carrying male I agree with Elizabeth, I'm happy to be considered a stereotype:
Football, fast cars, big tits, curvy ass babes, big stereos
Amen!!
Sub sonic bass? Not my thing, I'm all about an accurate/holographic mid-range for the most part. Get the vocals right and most other things fall into place.
"My idea of really bad low frequency is driving, then hearing some morons' thumping crap subs from five cars away at a stoplight, and being stuck till' the light turns green. "
Yes, I agree. That IS the worst!!!!
Some of the things I have heard in Best Buy and other stores that target the masses are close behind.
I used to sell car stereos at Radio Shack years ago. I am proud to say I managed to always resist the urge to sell car stereos and make commissions by cranking up distorted bass. I did OK though despite by just trying to keep focused on quality, not quantity.
"Imagine the impact of the tympani had you been sitting closer."
I can only imagine, but I would propose that it is possible the impact could be less sitting closer if sitting on a more rigid floor or foundation. Its possible that being higher up and further away yet in an elevated balcony transmitted some of that bass energy through the structure, ie "the place was literally rocking" maybe.
Also, the balcony was elevated with the tympani in direct line of sight so I suspect it took a direct hit from the soundwaves, whereas the floor is closer but below the stage, so the sound waves transmitted might be lesser as well.
YEs, Tvad, we audio kooks are an anal bunch indeed....
I will never forget the visceral sound of that particualr tympani in that particular setting though. It was almost an "out of body" experience that seemed to defy physics. I was left disoriented for a moment and trying to figure out how what I just heard actually happened?
ISn't that the kind of thrills we misguided audio head cases seek,afterall?
"A distortion is the alteration of the original shape (or other characteristic) of an object, image, sound, waveform or other form of information or representation."
So if it is in the source but not heard, it is an alteration and can be considered a form (by omission) of distortion.
How acceptable is it in those terms now, audiophiles?
This is truly how I look at it personally and why I find I cannot be satisfied fully (despite being satisfied greatly still though in practice ) by even excellent smaller speakers otherwise that punt by design and chose to omit the lowest octaves in order to achieve greatness.
When I had my Nelson-Reed 1204s [4 12" drivers a side] subs set up my favorite demo record was "Ancient Dances of Hungary" on Harmonia Mundi. The weight of the low strings was felt much more even though the 12" woofer in my main speakers went down well below their range.
"removal of the lowest source frequencies (requiring the greatest energy) from an upper bass driver and the main amplifier"
That is usually a good thing and common with a good sub setup.
Also true with good full range one box designs that are not undersized and do not ask small or lesser bass drivers to do too much alone.
I am of the opionion that a well executed Walsh bass driver like those found in modern OHM Walsh line speakers, is an inherently optimal approach for delivering balanced coherent, and extended bass from a single driver.
A couple of responses mention lower overtones. This is not correct. An overtone is a frequency above and some multiple of a fundamental frequency. Thus the first couple of overtones for the 42 Hz of an open E string on an acoustic bass are 84 and 168 Hz. There is no 21 Hz overtone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone
From demonstrations I've heard, the most important benefit of a subwoofer (or bi-amped full range speaker if the bass crossover is low enough) is improved clarity and definition in the upper-bass, lower-midrange. I think this results from removal of the lowest source frequencies (requiring the greatest energy) from an upper bass driver and the main amplifier. I've found this case no matter what type (frequency range) of music is played.
I'll go out on a limb and propose that many that like good sound and do not like low bass need to hear it done well and not like it is done most of the time.
"Electronica artists have the freedom to create music without the limitations of traditional instruments. They can be creative in any octave they want and I don't want to miss out."
Very good point!
Those that shun anything electronically produced will likely be less affected by missing the lowest octave.
Those that care about sound quality and listen to electronically produced music will care more if it is not there.
"Sit mid hall or balcony and you won't experience the visceral impact of low bass."
Often but not always true.
Sitting at Dress Circle balcony level in Carnegie Hall, I felt the visceral impact of the tympanis when struck to the greatest degree I recall at recent live concert events.
If I go back there or elsewhere and do not hear and feel it, I will now know for sure I am missing something.
I'd guess that a big part of it is people not really appreciating just how little musical info there is in the bottom octave, because they think that what they're hearing is lower in pitch than it actually is. From posts I've seen over the years, I'd bet that many folks here would guess way low if asked to ID the frequency of a bass sound played for them. But that misimpression may - in one sense - be useful.
The upper half of the next octave (60hz-80hz)is critical to lots of music and speaker specs are misleading. As Bob astutely points out, those anechoic FR graphs manufacturers provide do not usually include distortion numbers - presumably because they'd suck. Also, room effects are wreaking havoc with the signal throughout the bass region.
Bottom line, it's very tough to predict in-room bass performance from manufacturer's specs. It might not be a bad rule of thumb to focus on 20hz to 40hz with the hope that a speaker designed for critical performance in this sub bass region will be better than average in the octave above. No guarantees, but probably not a bad rule of thumb. Personally, I use room corrected subwoofers, but that's a different thread.
As to the gut impact and spacial cues provided by the actual deep bass, I agree that there is something to this, too. Some recordings have significant energy in the 35-40hz range and you will "feel" this in the gut.
The spacial thing is interesting in that info in this range is impossible to localize, so you'd think it wouldn't help with staging, imaging, etc. However, it's easy to see why even very low level info in the 20+hz range MIGHT provide spacial clues. Think of a predator's footfalls - very low level, very low frequency. Very useful to prey if they can use that info to better understand the environment they're in. Obviously speculative on my part, but - at least - not as counterintuitive as it might seem at first.
I never thought low bass was a "male" thing...new concept to hear someone say that.
One need only attend a single show, look around at a dealer, or pay attention to who is posting here in these and other audiophile forums, to know that this is by far and away a "male" hobby. The percentage of women who care about this stuff is extremely small in my estimation and in my direct experience for over 35 years. Present company (at least one of us) being part of the minority.
My own experience of well-reproduced bass is that it brings with it a fuller appreciation of what is on the recording, the space it was recorded in, the instruments themselves (assuming they do reach those lower octaves). In that sense music becomes more engaging. It is like adding a fuller palette of hues to a visual reproduction of a painting: with more limited hues, say a coarse screen magazine reproduction in People magazine, the image of a painting with tremendous range and contrast would do adequately in conveying what the painting generally looks like. Reproduce the same painting with state of the art stochastic printing and at 600dpi resolution and you will have a far greater understanding of the what is actually there, and arguably a greater potential to enjoy what the artist put on the canvas.
As far as the high end of the spectrum, which is certainly important as well; I wonder how many people hear anything at all above 17khz. I doubt many of those posting here do.
The logic involved in intentionally limiting frequency extension is similar to the logic which would say it's advantageous to limit one's visual field. Perhaps glasses should have a black strip at at the bottom to block vision looking through the lowest portion of the glasses? Big advantage, right? That's what is being done with speakers which limit the frequency response. Big advantage, eh?
Someone intentionally wants a truncated representation of something? Fine, good for you. Not me; I'll take the full experience. As long as finances and space permit there's going to be a true full range reference speaker in my home.
Listening levels are not dictated by frequency extension. If you have ever heard a solo vocal piece played with and without a subwoofer you know immediately what LF adds to a system's performance, including clues to the spatial nature of the recording venue. It's misinformation to suggest that persons pursuing LF are just doing so to get the gut punch.
I believe I am not alone in that I care not terribly much the degree of shake/rattle/boom my system has. Instead, I want supreme quality of two channel in all music genres without unnecessary limitations. In terms of pursuing the best sound attainable, when a rig has little bass extension beyond 40Hz it's been seriously compromised.
interesting thread, some like low bass and others do not....I like full range including top end....my speakers go to 20hz and I have the room size to support that low tone...in live venues I've noticed big bass waves "hit you in the chest" with a physical impact...but I like balanced sound unless the artist likes to push the low end...I never thought low bass was a "male" thing...new concept to hear someone say that.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
