Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Its always a fair question to ask how one knows how a particular component in an audio system is contributing to the end results.

Listening to a system only indicates what each of the components used is CAPABLE of doing in that particular configuration, not how the individual parts sound in general.

Its useful information but one should be careful about jumping to general conclusions about specific components. Turntable A may be the winner in system A. That probably is a good indicator that it is a strong competitor but does not mean that it will perform equally well in system B.

An analogy is that a baseball player may lead the league in batting in stadium A, but fall well behind the leaders in stadium B. IF they are among the leaders in multiple stadiums (the more the merrier), however, that is probably a good indicator that the player is pretty good.

Dev, I apologize. I should not have stuck my nose into the conversation between you and Win. Win is more than capable of defending himself, if he should choose to do so. I guess I took some umbrage at the tone of your questioning, rather than the questions themselves. Similar to the tone of your response to me, rather than its content, and then to Mike Lavigne.

It's probably fair to say that Win does not "make" the motor to his turntable. He freely admits he did not design or make the motor controller. And I am sure someone else cuts the slate pieces from blocks of slate, and some water-jet facility probably makes the final shapes and holes. Perhaps Win only assembles and calibrates those discrete parts. OK? Point taken.

Dear administrators, my original post has been posted 3 times instead of intended one.
Could you please fix it?

Thank you

"Having owned many good turntables in my audiophile life I am still wondering why not one of the modern designs of the last 20 years is able to beat the sound qualities of an EMT 927."

There is not much difference in "sound quality" of one well constructed table versus another IMHO.

What will result in sound quality differences is all that goes into getting a good table arm and cart set up well, and all that goes into selecting flavor of cart to sound best with all the rest. Which actually might or does is largely subjective.

Spinning a record quietly with good sound is not rocket science. It just has to be done right. DO it right and there are many possibilities regarding which will be determined by who to beat the others.

Mikelavigne,

Sorry but I really just don't understand your reply and below are my reasons why.

How do you or anyone for that matter of fact able to go to a show and hear a set-up that involves numerous pces that you are not familiar with as a whole paired up together, never mind the room or others things going on but able to come to a conclusion suggesting the sound is the result of one specific pce of gear within what ever has me at a loss.

Gotta love it though :-)

How would you know what the Saskia table has to offer in general if not put in your own system and directly compared towards the Dobbins Garrard 301 you make reference to.

Sorry but this just isn't possible.

I don't know Mosin and have no knowledge about his marketing and/or product.

in 2008 Mosin did have the Saskia turntable at RMAF and it did sound wonderful. great propulsion to the music and very quiet and refined. as well as looking like a million bucks too.

anyone who has seen it has desired it.

at that time i owned a Dobbins Garrard 301 with the Loricraft power supply which i liked alot. the Saskia was a few levels beyond that for sure to my ears. it's a great turntable.

i would be very surprised if the 927 was in that league....but of course, it's possible.

i know that Mosin put a huge effort into the development of the Saskia. sometimes the talent and effort to create magic is not matched on the marketing side for whatever reason. maybe Mosin is too humble for his own good.

TTweights, technology itself, hoewever advanced, does not gurantee anything. The unfortunate marketing figures of merit "W&W below 0.0000000x%", "axis polished to xx um", etc are useless in on their own. We've learne that lesson with THD in amps. Sonic resluts are important, not technologies.

TTweights, technology itself, hoewever advanced, does not gurantee anything. The unfortunate marketing figures of merit "W&W below 0.0000000x%", "axis polished to xx um", etc are useless in on their own. We've learne that lesson with THD in amps. Sonic resluts are important, not technologies.

Dev, I will for you to please stop before you make an a** of yourself.
Quantity nor popularity does not determine the sonic superiority of a turntable over another. The man stated the man hours it takes to make one.
If you are trying to tell us how many different people are involved in the production of the turntable and it sound that easy and simple to you, then produce only one for yourself and be happy.
Do not degrade a fellow member and pretend to be sincere in your peanut reasoning.
You do not see anybody attacking Thuchan for the statement about the EMT 927.

Lewm,

excuse me when you suggest I should lay off and say he told me that every table is hand-made by him, where did he say that?

Are you 100% sure about this statement you made? or is Win designing and having pces manufactured by this and or that person/organization to his spec and then assembling.

I have nothing against Win, nor of his design nor am I attacking him as a person.

Just asking questions for clarification, sorry but I'm just not privy to all the stuff that's gone on. I'm only referring to reading a little of this or that over the past years "appears mainly from 2008" involving OMA and what was wrote on the 6moons thread.

Win was the one whom referred me to search the archives so I did, oops!

This is an open forum for discussion right so why so defensive and why are you answering for him, I did not put the question forth to you.

Business wise I wish him well but your rant doesn't assist specially if the information is not 100% correct. ;-)

Dev, In case Win has lost interest in this thread, I would take up his defense. As he told you, each table is hand-made by him (not ever by OMA; his association with OMA was terminated a few years ago, but they never built anything related to the table). Each table weighs on the order of 140 lbs, and if you buy one, Win shows up at your house to set it up, much as is the case with Lloyd Walker. For Win, it's a labor of love, and I really don't think he is interested in selling hundreds or thousands or maybe even tens of turntables, even it it were physically possible for him to put that many turntables together per year. I think he sells as many turntables as he wants to sell, by word of mouth alone. The motor and drive system in the Saskia is surely more advanced than that of the EMT927, but that alone does not necessarily mean that the Saskia is superior sonically, altho I personally suspect that it is at least quieter. Regardless of that, you won't find a more honest and sincere guy in this hobby, pro or amateur, than Win (Mosin). For that reason alone, it would behoove you to lay off.

TTweights, technology itself, hoewever advanced, does not gurantee anything. The unfortunate marketing figures of merit "W&W below 0.0000000x%", "axis polished to xx um", etc are useless in on their own. We've learne that lesson with THD in amps. Sonic resluts are important, not technologies.

Hi Mosin,

Thx for that information, I'm sure Thuchan and others would be up to the task to compare one of your tables so are you up to that task.

Ya unfortunately searching the archives provides very limited information about your table which are vague anyways, I have read discussions in the past years where you were asked specifically more technical questions about your design but have declined saying you want to keep such as a secret.

The only information I have gained was written in a 6moons blurb; showed a picture of a table saying it was a new OMA product blah! blah! patent-pending with the motor controller done by Mark Kelly. The deck being designed by you Win Tinnon, machining by Colby Lamb and that OMA did the slate fabrication.

That was all talked about back in 2008, then you have member Robyatt posting also back in 2008 and wrote; "I heard the Saskia Idler drive TT at Oswalds Mill Audio the other day"

Care to comment!!!


My following comment is not be taken personally but if your table is that great and if I was you I would put this question to myself "why aren't there more owners of my tables out there"

Dear Henry, Before man started to wear diamond earings Patek Philippe was 'the' jewel for man. So it is not about technology but about fashion and riches. However the connection is showing off with what we own.

Regards,

Dev,

They are $36,000. It takes many, many hours to build even one, so I make very few of them. No tonearm comes with the turntable.

I do not sell through dealers, but I may make it to RMAF this year. If you search the archives here, you will find comments of Audiogon members who have heard the Saskia turntable. I am proud to be able to say that their comments are extremely favorable. Admittedly, it is a rare beast.

Mosin,

said; I would like to believe that at least one beats it. :wink:

Only way to find out is to compare and even then that's subjective on it's own specially if one has never actually heard a EMT 927 and comparing.

I have yet to come across any of your tables locally in a system nor on the forums from other user's commenting, why is this. Is there a lack of your designs out there, I have vaguely read they are very costly but really not sure of the actual cost so how much does one of your table designs actually go for and what's included and where can one see-touch and listen to in a system.

Ttweights,

I would have to disagree with your assessment, this coming from a manufacture kindly do provide more in depth details specifically.

In this specific thread the table in reference is a EMT 927.

Do you feel any on your current table designs are superior or even of equal? If so kindly list in detail.

I have heard numerous tables of yours and sorry but nothing was exciting. One guy's system one could clearly hear the noisy motor and this person commented you had changed it out numerous times, also table could not hold an accurate speed even though this is something that you seem to specifically market which really left me scratching my head.

Nothing personal but no one that I know who has heard your tables or even in the forums feels your tables are anything special.

"Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?"

No one has countered with the question, "Why does the EMT sound the way it sounds?" Yet, many are all too willing to dismiss it out of hand. Personally, I have never heard an EMT 927, so I have no firsthand experience with it. I have studied it's design, however, and I am convinced that EMT did build a superior piece when they produced the 927. Is it the best? Tuchan thinks so. As a turntable manufacturer, I would like to believe that at least one beats it. :wink: Like everything else, your mileage may vary, and so it goes.

There are other issues here that are displayed by the notion of some that we have nothing to learn from history because it produced no true performers. To lump all vintage pieces into a single category based on age alone, and to lump all modern ones into another category for the same reason is folly, in my opinion. It would be like saying that all modern turntables are the same, and we all know that isn't true. The same goes when it comes to drive types, too.

Some turntables from the past are stellar by any measure. The Mitchell Cotter turntable is one example. It looks like a DIY project, but most modern turntable manufacturers can't begin to rival it on their best days. (That's my opinion, but not necessarily Tuchan's. LOL) The Fairchild Studio 750 is another example of a vintage force to be reckoned with. I'm sure there are others.

So, when it comes to turntables (or other equipment for that matter) we should ask why it's good, or why isn't, rather than making hasty generalizations based on age, or whatever.

That's my two cents on the subject, anyway.

Comparing the technology in turntables with that of cars is dubious at best?
The physics and functioning of the turntable system has been pretty well understood for decades.....and in the case of idler drives and direct drives....there are few current or modern designs which can compete...let alone match........the top of the line designs from the 70s and 80s.

A fairer comparison of the art of turntable design I feel....would be with analogue watches.
Ask yourself whether a 2013 Patek Philippe wrist watch is technologically better than a 1930s, 1940s or 1950s Patek Philippe?

The older designs are very good but as it has been noted they are not close to current technology, the drive used today did not exist, the software to run them, and the machining accuracy.
I always use this as a reference...I own and have raced my 1969 Firebird with a 426 pushing upwards of 650 HP...but you can go buy a factory car with more power, better brakes, better handing and the list goes on.
I have been lucky in my position to test All of the Garards/Lencos/Sp-10 and at the end of the day they are just like the 1969 firebird.

I know with a $100K investment in the firebird I can keep up with the new cars...but they cost 40k.....

That is simply a hobby of love and looks NOT TRUE PERFORMANCE.

This is the same as the table comparisons..simply not fair 40 years technology vs current.....
Cheers
Larry

While I like Art Dudley, based on his "attitude" to this hobby and its importance in the grand scheme, I would not choose him as an arbiter of my own thinking or actions in the context of the hobby. He has a decided bias in favor of devices that color the sound to his liking, to include the Shindo electronics, the TD124, his choice of speakers,etc. That's perfectly all right, but it tells me that he and I are dissimilar in our tastes and goals. So, while I am a "Lenco lover", I do not love Lencos exclusively, and I would hardly say that idlers are in the ascendency.

Art Dudley wrote a very good article in the June issue: "Idler days are coming".

Omsed,

ya for sure these forum's can be addictive :-)

you wrote;

A teacher used to say to us "open your mind, something might drop in". I'm here trying to do that.

REALLY! I don't really see it that way, you seem to be side stepping simple questions put forth to so I'll ask again.

Please do share by providing a list of what you feel are "Great table" along with "State of Art tables" from your own experience.

If you want to add a brief description along with each outlining why would be great also.

Peterayer,
I mean by sound quality also in comparison with other idlers like Garrard and Lencos. I know my experience might raise resistance by 301 and Lenco owners like Tbg but why not express one's opinion clearly.

On top of that if you compare prices of the (so called) Top-class TTs like Caliburn or TechDas or some others with a also expensive 927 you will end up with a kind of bargain (not really, is still a lot of money).

Thuchan, could you clarify your opinion? Are you saying that you believe the EMT 927 is the best turntable jusged by sound quality alone, as you state in your original post, or are you saying that when you factor in the price, it offers the best value like you seem to suggest in your 5/17 post "If you compare sound quality/prices of the oder designs with with the modern designs you will agree with me that an EMT 927 beats them all...."?

I would find it very helpful and I think the thread would benefit from a discussion about the merits and the deficiencies of the 927 compared with the best modern designs as described by those who have a lot of experience with these tables.

Tbg,
do you have a problem, you don't have to participate if you are finished?

thanks

Thuchan, thank you for your previously stated opinion.

Omsed,
agree with you on your experience-description. Of course the topic is very complex and it is also a matter of personal preferences.
You're right when stating there are so many modern and rebuilt TTs of over 10.000 out there which are not worth the money at all. Nevertheless these designs sometimes reach a kind of hardcore group defending the product after their shopping tour like following a church curriculum. This is not my philosophy and also not my experience.

What I wanted to express - and of course I am bit provoking - that having seen so many designs I am really surprised of the qualities of the EMT. This is not an assessment of the moment. Much more this table keeps me captured.

A good 301 or Lenco is as nice as I described it. But it doesn't give me the kick - which is also a very personal assessment.

The Forum community comprises many different groups, not everyone has seen so many tables like you and me and we might get tired reading one and one and another thread about "the same modern 10.000 table". As we also need to understand one has to make his own experiences as we all did it is my wish that people start going on their individual "table journey" rather than believing and defending their 10.000 table for the next 40 years.

At Munich High End I have listened to the TechDas for the first time many people talk about at the moment. This might be one of the interesting modern designs. It is also compared with the Caliburn/Criterion of Continuum as a high quality phono product. Nevertheless I am not sure what it additionally offers to me in comparison to my Micro SX 8000 II.
If you compare sound quality/ prices of the older designs with the modern designs you will agree with me that an EMT 927 beats them all... :-)

Going to try to be bowing out from the forums now guys. I see that they are addictive to me! Wow, it takes a lot of time to try to be clear, and I have my real job, research and design to do.

Try to remember, when you think you know it all start looking for your mistakes! You'll find them. When I run an experiment and results turn out different than my expectations I get more excited than when I'm right. When I'm wrong it is a huge opportunity to delve into the science and experiment to find out just why I'm wrong......and then I'll know a lot more, that = excitement and progress!

Thucan, you said "you also stated that the Garrard 301 is one of yor likes."

Yes, that's true. But when I say "like" it is totally different than my saying something is state of the art. "Like" means I find it pleasant, easy to listen to, does not hurt my ears.

As far as being "great" or "state of the art", it is way, way far away from that. It is missing much too much detail and layering to be anywhere near state of the art. When I put my best turntable in after the Garrard I end up saying "Wow, WHERE did all that depth, detail, layering, low level sonic cues come from?" I find no advantage in any area whatsover (dynamics, drive, stability of tone, actual tonality, decay, attack, convincing of the real event ability) over my best turntable. But it is nice, and I would way rather listen to it than many current turntables.

The very, very best (and that does not mean the very most expensive) turntables have moved forward, but the whole market has not IMO. There are plenty of very poor turntables out there, even costing as much as $10,000 or more, and I would rather listen to the Garrard or SP10 than any of those poor ones.

Thucan, we could talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about different tables and their sound with the same arms and cartridges - which is the way I make EVERY comparison. Then you or someone else could say that I did not use the right arm due to synergies of tables/arms (which is a far, far overblown thing). This could spawn more hours and hours and hours of conversations.

In the end, few have tested so many combinations as scientifically (in methodology) as I have. Let's remember, nearly all the tables were in my place, my system.

Additionally, I am looking for, and devising experiments for, the most direct players and arms in terms of getting what is off the record with as little editorialization as possible. Just talking about those experiments would take pages and pages. It would be fantastic fun for me to go through all this. But the time.....the endless posts describing things, just to have some guy with one year of experience in analog having owned 2 tables start debating with me. It's a losing proposition on forums.

I'll tell you my purpose for being here: to have something to do during a coffee break, and to try to point out that it is very hard to say that there is just one correct answer.

Most forums are full of guys who have heard 10 things or fewer (of the component type being discussed) and are declaring an absolute best, a winner, a black and white conclusion. I'm trying to make folks aware that even with many many times the experience, having a strong technical background to understand what is happening technically, having the best test equipment, and devoting a lifetime to it, things are still complex and declaring a single winner is not clear cut. Even declaring a winner on the best drive system is not clear cut. I'm still buying things with different drive technologies to test....looking for some potential advantage to a particular drive technology that I don't really believe in.

A teacher used to say to us "open your mind, something might drop in". I'm here trying to do that.

I know a guy who have never raced cars. Does not follow car racing. He's never excelled at a high amateur level of any type of motor sports competition. But he feels he has a gift for the "feel" of vehicles, so he feels he could be a NASCAR race winner if he got some experience. Now, I feel NASCAR oval racing boring and the skill is not apparent to me. BUT, I know that there is a very high degree of skill needed. It is just not so obvious to me when guys are going "round and round". I know my good friend is deluded.

This is the same way I feel when I see a consumer saying "This is the best (technology, or model, design) ever made" when I know that even with education, design experience at high tech levels, then a career of decades doing this, I can't make such blanket statements.

This discussion for me has reached its end. It is now just personalities.

Omsed,
I try to get some better understanding about your position or your preferences as well. You said that "idlers don't impress you anymore" (hope i did not get you wrong here) and you also stated that the Garrard 301 is one of yor likes. As I also believe the Garrard is a good table it lacks some of the qualities of the EMT 927. I did compare both designs (excellent, well serviced units) by using the same SME 3012 (first series) and same carts.
The Goldmund Reference I is also a good table but it does not reach the sound qualities of an EMT 927.
You have heard so many tables. It is fun discussing the different assessments we all have. I realized that many audiophiles praise Lencos or prefer special versions like the Shindo. Honestly while I listened to some good Lencos, also rebuild versions of Oma etc. they all have something and they play music in a very dynamic and soemhow attractive way.
Returning from the EMT I usually miss the balance and the smoothness paired with pressure and strenght of these idler designs.

Thanks for your lengthy response, Omsed. You have a lot of experience with tables and arms. I'm still curious. Which of the modern tables do you prefer and why.

Further up the thread in a post you inferred that technology has progressed and that the best of the new tables are better than the best of the older ones. Or am I misunderstanding your post?

This thread is about tables being better or worse than the EMT 927. You seem to think that some modern designs are better. Which ones and why?

The open-mindedness is astounding:

ttweights: "Yes there is no replacement for torque and direct coupling"

I guess no further thought required!

Omsed, Maybe everyone else here knows you, but I don't. If you have as much industry experience as you say, you or your products must be at least moderately well known. Can you identify yourself or your professional affiliation? Thx.

Kiddman, None of us fully agrees with any other one of us, so why be concerned about presumptuous overstatements?

Direct Inner rim drive was our first design, we now have the direct outer rim drive and this design is the most powerful and yes it requires a custom motor like we use.
Yes there is no replacement for torque and direct coupling with a high rpm smooth motor,Larry

Further to my last post, note that I have not said any one brand is positively best, or any one technology is certainly best. Contrast that to one of the posters, with much less experience than me, who said, in another thread:

"My reaction is that ONLY someone with a well done horn system can truly evaluation many components."

Now read some of the dogmatic statements in this thread again, including the starter. Can you really believe anyone making such posts

Replying to Peterayer:

Peter: Omsed, Do you have a preference for drive type or arm type? I'm curious about which modern top tables you do like.

Omsed: After extensive comparisons the best sound I have heard is off of a belt drive turntable. However, that does not mean I am stuck on belts. Even with technogies that seem to defy physics a bit, I am all ears and always expecting revolutionary performance, in some regard, for everything I plug in and am ready to listen to. I'm always expecting that the next thing I try will beat my own designs in some regard. That certainly keeps me from adopting the attitude "anything not done here can't be good". That N.I.H. (Not Invented Here) attitude is very prevalent in audio, and I rail against it. So is the "I don't own it so mine blows it away" attitude prevalent.

Peter: Have you heard the Dobbins Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Rockport direct-drives, Walker, Basis, SME, Continuum, Kronos or TechDas? I'm sure there are others.

Omsed: No on Dobbins, Yes on Wave K., yes on Rockport, yes on Walker (many times and locations including here), Yes on Basis (many times and locations including here), yes on Continuum, Kronos, and TechDas.

When you say say "I'm sure there are others", certainly over 100 in my own systems. Merrill, VPI (many models), SOTA (all models except Comet), Kuzma (many), Rega (all), Versa (both models), Forsell, Goldmund Reference and Studio, Micro-Seiki (many), Thorens 124, 125, 126, Garrard 301, 401, Linn Valhalla, Linn with Trampolin and Linngo, AR original, AR newer version, Oracle (many), Transrotors, JA Michelle.......now that I've counted that starter list I see it is well over 100, and I have not even gotten into a lot of current brands. But in 3 decades of business it adds up. Arms over 100 also.

One thing I've learned: design TYPE, of any product, (i.e., gimbal bearing, knife-edge bearing, unipivot, belt drive, direct drive) most often tells little about the final performance. It's the design QUALITY and execution QUALITY (sorry for caps, not shouting, but don't know how to italicise) that matter most. The best designers, the best physicists, their minds are usually very open about new or different ideas, and rarely say one way is the absolute best way to do it. It gets me crazy on these forums when folks have to say things like "this is the only way"....", "horns are the only way", "Horns are all bad", "ONLY Vandersteen and Thiel speakers are good (an above dogmatic poster said that in a thread), "only direct drive", "only idler"....."

Dev, the Nantais Lenco Reference, which I am getting has a 25 pound heavier plinth and several other innovations. I know of people with Classics who are thinking about moving to the Reference.

I know from the use of the SP Ultra Fives under my Tidals that backing off the Ultra Fives sound better backed off a little. Unfortunately, I cannot do that with the BMC Arcadias. Basically the threading is inserted into the shaft drilled into the base of the speakers. Backing off from contact merely pressed the threading further into the speaker. I could put a washer on the bolt but that would keep it from the threading.

Omsed, kindly enlighten us further and do share what you like and why.

I'm an open minded end user and to date with my own personal first hand ownership of some tables am truly amazed with what they add or not to the music as a whole.

Tbg, your last posting the statements are interesting but at the same time subjective when you suggest one table

"greatly out-performed everything with which I compared it, including the Shindo."

So you are suggesting the Ref JN Lenco is that much better but you don't even actually have it yet. That's confusing, kindly enlighten us further with more details of what you found to be different.

I would think the platter it's self on these specific tables to be an important part of the design offering ...

I have even read JN has been working on a all out assault table which actually includes such but will be too costly for most, in communication with him he is way too busy making money with the Ref tables. More affordable.

When looking at another company it appears that they already offer this different platter.

Do share what knowledge you have gained about these designs in general.

Omsed, Do you have a preference for drive type or arm type? I'm curious about which modern top tables you do like.

Have you heard the Dobbins Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Rockport direct-drives, Walker, Basis, SME, Continuum, Kronos or TechDas? I'm sure there are others.

Tbg, you may very well have the same opinion if you heard an array of turntables here, moving the same arm and cartridge (not just the same model, the same serial numbers!) in a system where I can demo any number of really great (and using various technologies) speakers and headphones. At the very least it might cause you to think a bit about your position. What part of the country are you in?

But this is not a case of one-up-manship. It's a case of it not being fair to begin with. This is my job 7 days a week. Designing and testing is part of that job. And if I am curious, I but what I am curious about to test different ideas/technologies/execution levels.

What do I like? Goldmund Reference is nice. Linn (pre DC motor) had great speed stability. Basis Inspiration is my cup of tea.

For old stuff, I like the Garrard 301 best. Easy to listen to, cuts out the harshest part of the record. But, there is a price for always sounding rich and easy. That's a coloration that does not allow the deepest levels of detail to come through. It's beautiful, perfect condition, a really cool working antique that reminds me of times I often feel I liked better. But I know what it is and is not. And it is not anywhere near state of the art. Nor are my other antique turntables. But I can admit that and still love them. I find in audio, when someone loves something they usually say "THIS IS BEST". Yes, shouting indicated on purpose.

My goal may be different than most folks. I am looking to get exactly what is on the record. No smoother, no rougher. No more bass, no less bass. My philosophy is that this will result in the most clear sound with the best records. Some will fall on the thinner side, some the thicker side. And the best will shine gloriously.

Part of the goal is that except during testing I do not want to be listening to the components, I want to listen to the music. In my experience, the lower distortion the components, the easier that is to do.

Omsed, had I your tastes I too might share your opinions. Evidently, however, I don't. I'm not about to get involved with your attempt at one-up-manship, but I have had 14 tt in my 47 years as an audiophile. The last before the Lenco was very modern, the Bergmann SIndre, which was bought because it greatly out-performed everything with which I compared it, including the Shindo.

I know what I hear and know you like what you hear. End of discussion for me.

Dear Omsed, So I know what you don't like. What DO you like among modern "state of the art" turntables? The breadth of your experience may exceed all of ours combined. I can say I prefer my very highly tweaked Lenco (only the original motor and platter remain from an L75) to a Nottingham Hyperspace and to my Jean Nantais Lenco. Both of those however were far superior to a SOTA Star Sapphire III. I have two other DD turntables that I prefer to my present Lenco, by small increments and for different reasons.
Please share your experience. I don't think your analogy between a 67 Camaro and a new Corvette is at all relevant to the discussion, by the way.

Omsed,

I own a modern high performance table, the Basis Debut V with vacuum clamp and outboard motor control unit, and I like it very much. However, I have also heard Lenco, Garrard and Thorens tables that sound VERY good too,with different strengths and weaknesses vis-a-vis the Debut and other tables. The sound from these tables is very lively, upfront and "present," though they do have more rumble and a less refined sound. You take your pick of compromises with all tables. The closest to a have it all table I have heard is the BIG and EXPENSIVE Audionote table that has three 2 hp motors and three huge power supplies for the motors, plus a speed control unit. The size of the power supplies and the PRICE were non-starters for me.

Yes, Tbg, I've only been designing in audio for 30 years, only tested (analytically and listening)about 150 turntables, only designed several dozen audio products, so I bet I would throw away everything I've learned upon having another Lenco!

Funny thing, for even the very worst products I've tested I've had people tell me that they are the absolute best they've ever heard.

If they make you happy, whether they be Lenco, Garrard, Thorens, Technics SP10, or others, fantastic. Pleasure is what it is all about. Even inanimate objects that have no function other than adornment (jewelry grade diamonds for instance) give folks pleasure. But posting that nothing has equaled a Lenco is really over the top.

Cool representation of a gone by era, surely.

Fun to own, definitely.

Emotional attachment after one finds one and fixes it up, unquestionably.

Lots of personal feelings and pheromones running around about it due to the above attachment, certainly.

And, enough noise to mask a lot of detail that the very best modern table and arm easily uncover? Bet your life on it.

.....And the guys with their Lencos, and the guys with their Micro-Seikis, .........on and on with the great discoveries of how great the old stuff was. Funny all the best sounding turntable makers who knew the most went out of business. Bad luck I guess.

Definitely the love of these old things with all their moving parts has nothing to do with that they allow the owner to rebuild them and become "one with them", that they are nostalgia inducing, and that they are often unobtainium. Silly of me to wonder that.

Omsed, I guess I thought like you until I heard the JN Lenco Classic, not even the Reference that I have coming.