Dear Peterayer: I have no doubt that what you experienced in Viena listening at near source field live music was the most enlighted, learning and full of enjoyment of any other music experiece you had on your life.
I assumed because I had that kind of full experiences too in several ocasions. This is IMHO the best music reference we can have and a must to live it.
So, you understand very clear what means: low distortions and certainly what's right or wrong and that's al about.
Btw, looking to your system and even that your system place/room is not a big one but due that your magico's 7 inch. drivers are handling a wide frequency spectrum I can tell you that you could be nearer to teh recording and nearer to what you experienced in Viena adding to your system two active subwoofers in full stereo fashion. You will lower distortions as you never imagined. An opinion only.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Ecir38, I did at the High End Munich show 2012 in connection with the Silbatone Western Electric show. It was very impressing! Maybe a somehow underrated table. |
Raul, though this is a thread about the EMT 927, I will indulge you.
You asked why no one posted how he improved his system or something about listening to live music. I will describe a few of the things that I have done:
About six years ago I wanted to decrease distortion and increase transparency. So I hired an electrician. I bought 45' of JPS Labs IN-Wall AC cable and three high quality Furutech IEC connectors. I gave them to the electrician. He then replaced my three wall AC outlets and ran three lengths of 15' JPS cable from three dedicated 20 amp circuits on my panel through the floor and terminated the other ends in the Furutech connectors. They go to each of my mono amps and to a conditioner to my front end electronics and turntable. There are no outlet connections in my system. The noise floor dropped and I decreased distortion.
Another example is that I was unsatisfied with the isolation supports for my amps and turntable. I ordered three Vibraplanes, preloaded them with custom cut steel ballast plates and properly isolated those components. The result was dramatic. In particular, the bass frequencies were cleaned up and this increased overall clarity, tonal accuracy and balance, and extension and impact. This decreased distortion still further.
I recently made a trip to Vienna to see the State Opera. My host was the Director of Archives for the Wiener Staatsoper. He told me that he wanted me to experience the energy created by the instruments as heard and felt close to the source of sound. I attended three closed rehearsals and sat six feet away from the first violinist and conductor. Four hours a day, for three days. Then, for each of four nights I sat in the Director's box and heard four different operas. You can image the quality of the sound and music in that great hall. And the difference in sound from the orchestra pit to the second balcony, first row center.
When I returned home and listened to my system with the memory of that energy and sound in my brain, I realized that I needed to adjust my cartridge loading, phono gain and volume settings. I also confirmed cartridge alignment. Based on what I heard live in Vienna, I changed my settings which lowered distortion and helped my system sound more like the real instruments.
All of this was in service to what you call "right" or "wrong" with live music in a great hall as the reference. My regular BSO seats are seventh row center.
I hope this is an example of what you mean by someone attempting to lower distortion and listening to actual live music as a reference to improve his system.
The funny thing is, now I "like" my system more. |
Normally we are accustom our ears are accustom to what we prefered more than what is right. Of course some of you already know what is right or wrong but some of us are not aware of that subject and what I'm saying is for the ones that are not aware of.
Now, till this moment I posted some steps that could help to be sure where we are " seate d" and till this moment no one posted something that can enrich the proposal/alternative.
Seems to me that no one is willing to " unglue " of what learned and with this kind of attitude is almost imposible to have a formal discussion that can help to achieve better conclusions or better alternatives to improve what we have.
I gave two steps to improve system distortions: better bass system management and system matched electrical impedances. Till today no one posted that he already achieved it years ago or that started yesterday to do it through system changes and shared his experiences.
So, what's all about? Raul, if you really did do what you state in the quote above I am proposing to you that it was lost in translation- no such thing by you seems to have been offered, at least none that made sense. Now in your second to last paragraph it sounds like you are talking about something that I did decades ago. Can't be sure though. As far as 'what's its all about?': make it sound as true to the recording as possible. To do that you have to understand human hearing/perceptual rules which are not a matter of taste nor ear training. If you do understand those rules you can make a better, more-like-real-music sounding stereo. |
Btw, you are wrong when refered that I'm talking of digital because I did not. Maybe you can'T understand what means: " tool ".
I'm speaking of a tool to improve the analog experience. Is it not what you were asking for?
Why your " surprise " ?
Got it?
R. |
Dear Thuchan: +++++ " But why not describe for me and others in positive words how your brave new audio world looks like and which (positive!) attitudes and habits are necessary for becoming a full member of this rare circle. " ++++
this is what you posted and my posts were a result to your question.
So, now after I gave you my posts/answers ( from your request ): are you telling me " smoke..... because it's about TT?
I think is in some way " dishonest " to ask a person: " pull the triger " and after that " blame " me because I followed your advise/I pull the triger. Are you nuts? what's all about?
I felt your " pull the triger " was a real and sincere action but I can see that you are not trusty and we have to have care not to fall in that kind of trap.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Thuchan, you ever listened to a properly setup Commonwealth 12D3. It's a rare idler beast in and of itself. |
Raul, may i ask you a favor: smoking your digital somewhere else. This is a thread about turntables. This shouldn`t be so difficult to understand and follow. |
Normally when the system set up was made to listen mainly to analog then that's how it performs and when we hear other alternative normally we dislike or the anlog smoke the other one.
Please stop to make that kind of comparison is useless and does not helps to the overall subject.
We are using digital as a tool: I repeat as a tool because its distortions are different from the LP ones and what we are evaluating are the system distortions level.
Why is so dificult to understand it? or is it so bad my explanation that no one can understand it? if yes: end of the subject.
R. |
Dear Atmasphere: The issue is not if lP " smokes " the CD or the other way around. If you hear Gladiator in both formats then you can heard that digital smokes analog but this is not the issue. It is only a tool.
I make emphasis precesily in that was a tool and don't try to compare anything on LP vs CD as you posted because, again, that's not the subject.
In the other side, my experiences with different kind of electronics is that high distortions always are evident when you make comparisons/tests at high SPLs and I made emphasis on this regards too.
No process is perfect and mine on distortions neither.
Yes, the ears cares about distotitons if those ears are true educated on what is right or wrong because if are educated on what you prefer then does not helps on what is the alternative to upgrading that I'm sharing.
You posted the answer: ++++ The bottom line is understanding what the ear cares about +++++"
again, not what is prefered but what is right or wrong. To understand it you have to have the knowledge level, have to be aware of.
Normally we are accustom our ears are accustom to what we prefered more than what is right. Of course some of you already know what is right or wrong but some of us are not aware of that subject and what I'm saying is for the ones that are not aware of.
Now, till this moment I posted some steps that could help to be sure where we are " seate d" and till this moment no one posted something that can enrich the proposal/alternative.
Seems to me that no one is willing to " unglue " of what learned and with this kind of attitude is almost imposible to have a formal discussion that can help to achieve better conclusions or better alternatives to improve what we have.
I gave two steps to improve system distortions: better bass system management and system matched electrical impedances. Till today no one posted that he already achieved it years ago or that started yesterday to do it through system changes and shared his experiences.
So, what's all about?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, I have Vangelis' 1492 on LP; it absolutely **smokes** the CD version, better bass, more detail, smoother high end, greater extension, obviously more transparent (less distortion). Its does not seem to matter what digital system used, the results are consistent.
I agree that getting rid of distortions is important, but I have found that the ear 'cares' a whole lot more about certain distortions that it does about others. The result of that is, for example, that there are a lot of amps with 'high distortion' that seem to be more transparent, less fatiguing, more lively overall than some amps that seem to have hardly any distortion at all.
The bottom line is understanding what the ear cares about. If that is not understood who knows what the result will sound like? But if you know and honor the ear's hearing rules you are guaranteed to be able to build something that will sound better. |
Thanks Peter. Coming back to the thread' s topic after we all have mirrored ourselves as poets .
I read EMT is like climbing the Everest? Perhaps....Emt made all their products to make money. Selling in a competitive market....so how to succeed in a competitive BtoB market? Two ways... Low price or innovation/high quality....Emt took the high quality innovative
route in line with their ethics and German culture. So the Emt is good
because it had to be not because they wanted it to be....in the end they
went under because the market changed. Climbing the Everest is not about money nor is it a BtoB market...it is about personal achievement or ego......
All mirrors have two side!
|
Dear Thekong: +++++ " So, that goes back to what I like / prefer ... " +++++
not exactly, maybe I did not make a good explanation or you don't read it pefectly what I posted because your statement is not what we are looking for. We don't want more of the same because in some ways more of the same were wrong.
What we like it what you like or what I like or prefer is not the main subject but what is right or wrong, it does not matters if we like it or not.
When you attend to listen music ( example a horn player ) maybe you could like what you hear or not but that does not cares to any one.
What you are listening ( I'm not talking here: the kind of music but the instrument sound. ) is the way the instrument " speaks ", it's the self instrument color/voice and you can't do nothing to change it. The player does not ask you if you like it that instrument " voice ", he just play.
Maybe you could like more that hron sound if been less agressive or more smooth or not so bright or with more lush. All these because it's that way you are accustom to for all your audio life is that way that your " ears " prefer the music sound but what you normally are accustom to maybe is not right but wrong maybe it's not the sound of music in a live event at near field listening position.
So, what you like mor prefer is not important. What we are doing is wuestioning if what we heard through each one system is right or wrong against live music.
I posted here:
" if we have to grow up and the first change must be in each one unbiased attitude " +++++
" ++++ along attend as many times you can to hear live music. " ++++
that means no more: " I like or I prefer ", because the main subject has nothing to do with what we prefer because what we prefer is subjective ( and could be way wrong ) and how in true a horn " speaks " is objective: like it or not.
The example is with a horn but is valid with each instrument or at orchestra levels.
With all respect I don't care what you like/prefer or do not or if you want to change it all that's up to you
. I'm only sharing a " road "/alternative to improve each one audio system enjoyment and that's all.
IMHO something that could help to each one of us is how each one of us can enrich the whole subject/idea/alternative more than question it because we can't question it something that we never have the opportunity to experience.
I think is futile/useless to question/argue against something that we are not willing to do/try.
Everyone of us think that we already achieved the audio Nirvana at home and that could be not exactly as that because: do you think that exist thousands kind of Nirvana's?
IMHO exist only one, the right one. I'm still on the quest of it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Listen to those digital recordings and through the time ( working on system up dates. ) as you " accept " in better way ( enjoying really. ) what you are listening as better is your system quality performance and for sure your enjoyment to analog playback. Better? More enjoyable? Who should be the judge? Me, right? So, that goes back to what I like / prefer ? |
Dear Thuchan: Some tracks on those CDs has high content of low mid bass/low bass and are very good to evaluate the system bass management at low and high SPL.
What to look for?: that room/flor shake?, certainly not. What we are looking for is a bass perfomance with: fast transients, short decay time, no overhang, pitch, definition/precision,quality of, natutal color not " organic /bloom ".
We are looking for a firat rate bass management that permit to enjoy that bass frequency range with out " touch " the midrange/high frequency ones, i mean with out lost of midrange/hf transparency but the othet way around: clean, transparent, higher detail and endless dynamics on these frequency range.
Some of the tracks in the Gladiator CD is very good about because combine that kind of bass with full midrange/hf range music. It has very demanding " grooves " where only with top system quality performance can enjoy it and can follow each single mid range/hf notes at each single layer in the " grooves ".
Of course that there are passages where the bass go not only deep but with enough quantity to feel it inside your " bones " but even there the other frequency ranges must be hear it clear with detail and emotionally right.
It is not an easy task for any audio system, always a chllenge that when " you win " the overall rewards are richness than ever.
There are other CDs that are very good tools to evaluate that regards as: The Day After Tomorrow.
Those CDs tool/tests helps to improve room interactions, speakers/subs right position, faults on electronics.
Yes, you have to make changes or confirm that your system is just RIGHT and inproving.
Btw, I'm posting about because you ask for.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
|
Dear Thuchan/friends: Remember that you are not evaluating digital, you are not evaluating analog, not evaluating those CDs kind of music and not evaluating your ears what you are evaluating is the: SYSTEM QUALITY PERFORMANCE LEVEL.
Please don't try to make comparisons between digital and analog and don't look if digital can performs or not as analog: NO, NO.
Those CDs are only a tool: as an srewdriver to unscrew a screw and that's all.
It is not important that you like that kind of music or that you dislike digital " per se ", please use it only as a tool a " measure " tool to evaluate the system quality performance regarding low or high distortions on it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Thuchan: ++++ " audiophile nirvana which we all of the AHEE community will never reach .... " ++++
No, I never said that. What I said is that there is an alternative to enrich that today Nirvana you have: lowering system distortions.
I posted two steps that helps about but certainly there are others that we have " walk ".
Now, one important subject is: how can I know that I'm really lowering the system distortions or in the right road?
There are some ways to do it. One of them is:
listen to digital, CD ( redbook ) in a decent/latest CD player. You need to buy titles as these Original Soundtracks:
1492 Conquest of Paradise ( Vangelis ), The Thin Red Line,
Memories of a Geisha and Gladiator. There are more but those is a good point to start.
Listen to those digital recordings and through the time ( working on system up dates. ) as you " accept " in better way ( enjoying really. ) what you are listening as better is your system quality performance and for sure your enjoyment to analog playback.
Digital has its own kind of distortions different from the analog ones and that's why permit and serve as a tool to improve our analog listening.
When an audio system has low distortions even those kind of digital recordings are not only listenable but you can enjoy it easily. Now, you have to enjoy it not only at low or " normal " SPL but at not-normal/high SPL, this is very important to test/experience because at high SPL; you will know about those distortions.
Normally are high distortions the ones that preclude that we can hear ( with out risk. ) the system at high SPL.
If today listening to those recordings is a " torture " for your ears then you have a big big system land to improve.
There are other tools that will serve you to know where you are " seated " in that lower distortion quest. Latter I can post about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Great post, Thuchan. I think it is a really good summary. |
I just listened to Charlie Mariano and Dieter Ilg - Goodbuy Pork Pie Hat. If you ever have the chance listening to this direct to the cutter head mastered record by sommelier du son you may realize what good music means.
Charlie tells us the story of Lester on the sax. He tells the story of all great saxophonists. Also his own.
what a pitty he left us in 2009 |
Dear Mapman and friends: If we take a look around us around each one system and around threads/posts on several internet forums we can confirm that more and more audiophiles are now listening/to take refuge on vintage audio items: TTs, tonearms, cartridges, speakers and even electronics.
Why is that?:
certainly there must be/exist heavy reasons to that kind of behavior other than " vintage nostalgic ".
That's IMHO a fact that is telling to the AHEE that something is wrong with the AHEE historic trend and that something must has to change that audiophile firm trend in favor of what MUSIC playback needs, in favor of what LP playback needs and of course in favor of what all of us audiophiles needs more than simple making $$$$$$$.
I think that that audiophile " silent protest /revolution " is not enough because the AHEE follow with its trend.
I think we have to SHOUT at every single forum/way we have. I think we have to take active actions to really provoque an audio highn end change in favor of the AHEE and its real grow up in the right direction.
How can we SHOUT and be heared?, examples: that all over the world the audiophiles stop to buy any single audio item for one week or one month, to all audiophiles cancel their audio magazines suscrptions, that all audiophiles send an email SHOUTING to all audio forums, etc, etc.
Today, we audiophiles over the world are the ones that mantain that permit to survive any single AHEE member ( the good ones and the ones not so good. ) with our money$$$$ not with their money.
Always is to easy " to play " with other person money but a different history to " play " with our own money. Don't you think?
That's my opinion, which is the one each one of you have on the whole subject? do you want to follow paying for audio items ( any ) that does not fulfill the MUSIC and your real own NEEDS?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Mapman: Unfortunatelly all the audio community belongs to that AHEE.
Now, inside the AHEE are great things and bad things, good very good people and other not so good.
Agree, impressions matter with people, sometimes even more than facts.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Tonywinsc,
you are describing pretty well how you developed through "your audio career". I guess there are some others among us -maybe not writing posts at all, only reading - who couldn't stand anymore the experimentation process when changing gear or adjusting the system. Some of them gave up or went into smaller audio settings or just decided to be fine on a certain level. But there is a number of audio afficiniados still searching for the holy grail.
It might be also related to the age, the period how long you are working on your system, the abiliy coping with frustration, defeats and new beginnings. I don't think people with real ambition gathering here are walking in a shop, fair or platform buying samples of the most expensive stuff and relax for the rest of their life in front of their system. Those guys enjoy some other hobbies much more and come back to their music system very rarely.
The real HighEnder believes it is helpful building up knowledge, exchanging with friends and discussing on Audiogon e.g. The real Extremist High Ender has strong beliefs what kind of listening approach is adequate and will lead to listening enjoyment. It is not about listening at loud or low level - sometimes a very funny labelling of groups happens usually pointing at the "loud listeners" as the deaf or unknowledgable guys - no, it is more about natural sound, in my universum it comes with a profound bass related (!) to the music, drive but also a kind of airiness. I also prefer a good resolution (not necessarily High Resolution at all times) rather than only mid level frequencies.
I am not sure if someone not having really listened to one's system is able to draw conclusions like "that must sound distorted or not". But we all usually do this when looking at images of other friends' systems. For me the biggest jump forward in developing my listening mode came when I was exchanging ideas and views in situ - which means with experienced guys in my listening room. Of yourse you need to bring along a kind of learning readiness doing so. If you claim you are the biggest boy of all and your system is the greatest achievment on earth you will not suceed with my approach and experiences in the last years.
Nevertheless you may come to the point in one's audio career where not much is going forward anymore. Either you need to implement a complete change like "from transistors to tubes or vice versa" or "from less efficient speakers to very efficient horn speaker systems or vice versa" or from "MM to MC or vice versa" etc. or you are concentrating on room improvements or so called voodo accessories. The field is very wide for spending energy and money, especially in the analogue arena.
Some among us have finally reached at Nirvana or some similar Happiness, being absolutely satisfied with all their successful efforts. Is this the basis or motivation for moving out to the world showing and talking about their joy. Maybe yes! Are they right I don't know? Does it help others - maybe yes or no. Some among us are warning their comrades about the bad influences of the industry, reviewers and some other temporary fashions in the audio world. On top of that some believe in completely different audio philosophies as e.g.Raul seems to do right now.
Is this helpful, yes and no. Yes because we should never believe having reached some level keeps us in a position not listening to critical arguments. No because philosophies of denial and intolerance to others' different approaches (sometimes with personal implications) esablishe no solid bases for a positive audio adventure.
Tonywinsc - the times may have changed. Instead going to dealers looking around at new gear or installations (I know how it was :-) we are visiting audio friends learning from their experiences. It is sometimes a more complex and time consuming activity especially when you are visiting cross-border. I for myself will be in Paris next week listening to a completely newbuild Western Electric 12a installation. Is it for me? I don't know and I do not care about, I certainly will enjoy and learn. |
So no one liked my magic coils story? Hmm. A lot of talk going nowhere here. Let me say this: there are hobbyists and there are the real pros and innovators. The ultimate are those who have not just designed and built amplifiers and speakers but have gotten to the level of detail of winding their own transformers for amplifiers, speakers, microphones, phono cartridges, or motors even. Restoration is a labor of love and requires great skill and knowledge- don't get me wrong. I had a buddy in the 80s that was very talented at restoring amplifiers and preamps. He looked for old tube amps to restore that were known to have good quality, good sounding transformers. Maybe that's were I get my coils kick; but even he didn't try to wind transformers himself. Anyway, I want to weigh in here too. I agree that it's easy to grow accustomed to colorations in our sound systems. I get to hear acoustic presentations at our nearby University and they almost sound as good as my stereo. :) I like Blues music but I don't like the overpowering, way overdone bass at live presentations. I definitely do not want to duplicate that at home. I like live orchestra but my system at home cannot duplicate a music hall. So I have to live with that; but I still enjoy classical music at home.
I pretty much put my soldering iron away in the mid-90s and moved away from modifying to acquiring more "high end" equipment. I think I had to spend a lot of money to get beyond the sound of my modified gear. Part of me wants to believe that more $$=more better sound, but my experience over the years has proven otherwise. I'm brainwashed by the great marketing machine like everyone else. If I had the means, I would spend well into the 6 digits on my stereo to both satisfy my ego and get to the ultimate audio experience. As it is, I have learned to do more with what I have to maximize the audio experience. I think most of us as music lovers and hobbyists try to do that. I miss the stereo salons of the 70s-90s. So few around these days. It was always fun to hear the latest gear and walk away smirking at the bogus claims of some salesmen. |
"Dear Mapman: Agree that are many other persons that are thinking and experienced audio subjects " out of the box ", I never said I'm the " only ": not."
No, but when you talk about AHEE in such broad general terms, it gives the impression that it is an all inclusive club and categorically evil and misinformed.
I would loose the word AHEE all together if I were you and be more specific in who/what is being addressed case by case instead. That avoids grouping those who are educated with good intentions in with those who might be otherwise. Its a good practice and also better from a PR perspective.
Now if in fact you have 100% revolutionary ideas that toally flies in the face of everything anyone already knows about this stuff, then by all means have at and take on the world, but do you really, Raul? Really?
Impressions matter with people, sometimes even more than facts. |
Raul,
Your passion for this subject is in no doubt: you also appear to be able/willing to spend much more time than many of us to develop your ideas and observations.
One day, when you're able, I would like you to provide a summary of your researches - but simply and concisely! Perhaps in bullet-form? I don't know if others would agree, but leaving out the ad hominems and intemperate language would also be very welcome; I think we all know how devoted to this topic you are!
I only ask because, like you, I have a thirst for knowledge, as I'm sure many of us do. I find many of your comments to be challenging, some extremely so. It seems from many of your posts that your position is consistently anti-establishment, and this usually makes for good reading.
At the very least it would be fascinating to hear your manifesto.... |
Dear Mapman: Agree that are many other persons that are thinking and experienced audio subjects " out of the box ", I never said I'm the " only ": not.
My posts about are not exactly to convince any one, it's clear that when people are sticky to " something " only them can be unglued.
What moves me about is to make some conscience that not all what we have what we experienced what we learned and what we belive and are sticky with is right, there are several subjects that are wrong and alternatives " unknowed " for us that helps to improve to rectify what is wrong in favor to be nearest to the recording.
Unfortunatelly in some of those alternatives we have to turn around not only our believes but many times our be-loved electronics or audio items " we like it " and unfortunatelly too we are not prepared yet to do it we don't have the correct attitude to do it.
I know that we have to change in some ways if we have to grow up and the first change must be in each one unbiased attitude because with out it we can't really change.
Why is that?, well many of us are accustom/ears-equalized to those: mid range lush colored sound, smooth highs, non-accurate organic bass and the like.
What could happen when instead of all that kind of sounds that you are accustom to start to hear accurate, neutral, non colored, low distortions performances through your system?
what you will hear is something different from what you are accustom something different for the better where the music you will enjoy and that comes full of " emotions " now will sound not only nearest to the recording but nearest to the live music as never before.
Accurate, neutral, non-colored, low distortions does not means in any way_ cold, analitical, no-emotions and the like: NO, what means is that we can have all what the music it self can make through our senses but with accuracy.
Live music has its own agresiveness and normally has not that " smoothness " you are accustom to or that lushness you " die for ".
As Lharasim posted we have to understand first how live music performs. Try to make an experiment: bring to your place some one that can play a horn/trumpet for you and hear it seated 3 m. from him, listen and try to find that lush or smootness you normally like. You can try wit other instrument and then you will understand all what is wrong in what today we are listening through our audio system.
Many of us think that music " belongs " to the mid range well in a home audio system my take is that music belongs to bass range, as better the system bass management as better the music experience.
It's in this frequency range where IMHO we have to start to inprove. A clear, accurate, neutral bass range puts the right frame for the music where in the other frequency ranges you will hear that transparency/dynamic/power and information that you are unaware right now. Having the right system bass management means lower IMD/THD in your system and you can hear it and when you experienced this for the first time you will be speechless.
As with this action there are many others but IMHO this is the first step.
Yes, I know that many of us think that we already has that right bass management well ask you if can improve it and work there before you buy more cartridges, TTs or tonearms. For we can enjoy at top level all our new audio toys we have to improve that bass management system ( as other things around. ): the cartridge signal is processed through the system.
To achieve that " right " bass management ( with passive system speakers. ) we need to have two self powered subwoofers working in true stereo fashion:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
Secon step could be to match system electronic impedances in the same manner that with a cartridge we look to match it with the right load impedance. That means to match phonolinepreamp output impedance with the amp input impedance and the output amp impedance with the speaker electrical impedance curve. In this last case we need that the output impedance on the amp be/stay very low: 0.05 ohms is desired.
You can follow questioning me but is useless, what can help you could be to try and test/experience those two steps along attend as many times you can to hear live music.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul,
I think you are relying a bit too much on superlatives and absolutes in your language and accordingly overestimate the tendency of other educated people to act like sheep and follow the "AHEE". If a study were done, I think you would find many other educated and independent thinking "AHEE" similar to you, with some of the same and some different beliefs and interests. That's a good thing! Glass half full, not totally empty...
There are many "Rauls" out there. Maybe just not using the word "AHEE". |
I would have to agree with Raul...
IMO... way to many audiophile people have been burned in the wrong way
Raul please continue.... I see where this is going but you have to get your point across and not look or make people think your the audio god that is perfect...nothing is perfect!
my thoughts on music ..most people don't really know what real music sounds like..this is the first problem hence we have so much BS equipment out there
Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward |
Raul, you may have made lots of experiences when testing audio items as nearly we all did. As I learned now you are looking for a kind of retreat not buying any (in your language AHEE or distortion units) new audio gear except of used and unused MMs. I really do understand that someone switches from transistor to tube design and vice versa depending on his system and the other relevant units. In your words you left all these experimental stages and reached audiophile nirvana which we all of the AHEE community will never reach as we live in a distorted, industry & reviewer manipulated environment.
Okay got it.
On the other hand to convince audiophiles having been caught in the cage of distortion and AHEE you should describe what steps are necessary to reach your nirvana or guru level. I can follow your criticism which you constantly pursue (but so far do not share). But why not describe for me and others in positive words how your brave new audio world looks like and which (positive!) attitudes and habits are necessary for becoming a full member of this rare circle.
Pls. don't answer me what I should not (!) do rather than which actions are fundamental for becoming a real undistorted Non-AHEE audiophile.
|
Dear friends: +++++ " To accept that and to test it we have to have an UNBIASED attitude in all audio subjects/myths.... " ++++
that's what I posted and from your answers all of you are biased on what you learned through the AHEE ( Lewm, like it or not what is your audio foundation came from the AHEE and you are happy to follow it. ), so can't accept nothing that goes against it.
Gentlemans if my attitude were the same as yours I never started any audio project I started by my self and like all of you I stayed as a simple AHEE follower.
Btw, I never said ( Peterayer. ) that I'm not an AHEE member what I said is that all of us belong to the AHEE like it or not.
+++ " everyone is nuts (misinformed, whatever) except you. " ++++
I never said that either, I said " some " that's different.
++++ " WHat if you are wrong or missed something? How would you know? " ++++
I agree that no one is perfect and many times I posted exactly that: " maybe I'm wrong but..... " and till today no one took the " flag " and tell me you are wrong because:.......
you are right I can be wrong and is almost impossible not to miss something.
But time always helps to tell us if we are right or wrong and if we missed something. Through the time more than once I had to rectified on " wrong " statements that does not pass the test of time.
Every single statement/experience/discovery/ whatever I share in this and other forums is something that I test it every single day and still do it.
Many gentlemans in this forum and in this thread already made some changes in their audio believes testing and making of them some Raul " discoveries " and when that happen one, two, three, four or five times in different audio subjects/myths then is a confirmation that now if I'm wrong I'm not alone but in the other side can means that I was not wrong.
+++++ " I don't think any of my audio beliefs, correct or incorrect, were foisted upon me by some sinister cult power. My ignorance is entirely of my own making. " ++++
well now result that you don't belong to the audio community in the Earth, where do you come from? from Venus?
I don't think so, like it or not you as any one of us are a " by product of the AHEE that certainly is not a sinister cult power, not at all.
++++ " I suspect it is quite desirable to pursue low distortion, but not THD which turned out to be bs. " ++++
well that is a myth. When you lower the speakers IMD you are lowering too the THD and you can hear it if you are not deaf.
+++ " Without substantiations with data from "your research" you have no grounds to stand on. " ++++
well, that's is not exactly true. The substantations are each one of the gentlemans that some way or the other choosed to experiment withsome audio subjects I suppot and now they decided to follow it.
++++ " AHEE and "distortions" are Raul's indirect way of saying that the only truth is his truth, painfully arrived at.... " ++++
wrong absolutely wrong. Normally we are closed to any different audio subject that could modified in any way what we learned through the years because for each one of us what we learned is the " true " is the " Bible ".
I was not diffrenet from you in this regards but the difference was and is that I questioning if what I learned through the AHEE were true or misinformation because my ignorance level.
I questioning not only the AHEE but my self and each day I do that with my audio " new " discoveries and some AHEE audio subjects that are in doubt.
Everything I posted and shared in this forum is a result of that " questioning " and obviously a result of tests and first hand experiences that till today always were enriched for some of you that like it some of my discoveries.
Gentlemans, please do it a favor and don't question me but start a proccess to questioning what you learned on audio with a simple question: WHAT IF SOME CRITICAL AND IMPORTANT AUDIO INFORMATION I LEARNED IS WRONG TODAY ? What if wrong?
How do you know it's not wrong other than that futile: " I like it " ?
No one is perfect an all of us have an ignorance level that makes that we must learn every single day to improve that ignorance level. Of course that the easy path is to stay where you are to be a simple spectator/onlooker of your audio life instead an actor of it.
Till today with some of you the AHEE was and is the " designer " of your audio life not you.
Good news is that you can change easy that trend when yo decide to do it with an unbiased attitude unbiased from what you learnend questioning what you have and questioning your self.
Gentlemans, do you think that you live an enjoy a perfect audio world? a perfect audio life?
because only if you think that you will continue to question me and not your self and the AHEE.
I think that each one of us have the right to grow up in the right audio direction. To achieve that first you have to find out that road and when you have on hand never come back to that " jail ".
Sop from your point of view you are right and I'm wrong, you are perfect and I'm imperfect, you are " happy " and I'm unhappy,.... why not think the other way around just for fun. Maybe each one of you discover something interesting that could change your future audio life.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, Lots of arms have azimuth adjustment. Many do not. You say one is a result of the AHEE. How can the other exist if the AHEE is responsible for all? DaVinci, Dertonarm, Durand, Graham, TriPlanar all offer azimuth. SME and others offer some arms with it and some without. Some arms offer no azimuth adjustability. Many headshells are fixed, many are not. How can the AHEE give us so many choices?
Some speakers attempt to eliminate distortion, others do not. Magico/Wilson/Rockport/YG/Focal versus Tannoy/Harbeth/Shindo. And Avant Garde versus Sound Lab/Magnapan etc. etc. Some are extremely efficient, some are extremely inefficient. What myth is the AHEE forcing us to believe with these different speaker types?
Belt drive was forced on us by the AHEE? What about idler, magnetic, and direct drive? How can they give us so many choices.
What about CD versus LP versus High Rez? Again, so many choices.
Honestly, you make is sound as though it is the whole world, the entire high end industry (AHEE) forcing us to buy products against our will and not for our own good. I see lots of choices. But we should not trust our own ears?
You suggest that if we want to listen for ourselves to decide what we like, that act itself is forced on us by the AHEE? Really? If we should not listen for ourselves, should we simply believe what you tell us is correct and lowest in distortion.
I respect someone like you who spends many hours and resources exploring the subject and trying to learn for himself what is right or wrong (or what you prefer or don't). You designed a phonolinepre and toured systems and offered the product for sale. But you do not include yourself in the AHEE.
Now you have developed a new tonearm and will present it at RMAF. Since you are working on the manual, literature and marketing for this product, and you plan to introduce it to the world this Fall, I presume you intend to sell it to the public. Since you developed this and your audio theories through your own research, you must not think of yourself as part of the AHEE.
Dertonarm developed a tonearm design also and seems to have also done it on his own. How is this so different from what you have done? I guess you are not alone as being outside of the AHEE. |
"When confronting the Borg, resistance is futile. When confronting Raul, argument is fruitless. I am OK with that......, Really."
That's too bad. Raul does share some good information (albeit in fractured English), as do many others. I have yet to find anyone who seems to have cornered the market on audio truths.
Picard resisted the Borg, maybe Raul can too! As well as the AHEE! :^) |
The simple truth is that none of you exist. I am imagining all of this; it's all taking place in my mind, only.
AHEE and "distortions" are Raul's indirect way of saying that the only truth is his truth, painfully arrived at. We can all agree that there is and always was some degree of brainwashing of the public associated with main stream audio. This is called promotion, advertising, salesmanship, etc. The intelligent audiophile learns to accept all that with a grain of salt. Similarly, who would deny that distortion is "bad"? But for our dear friend Raul, these terms mean whatever he says they mean on any given day. I have been trying to engage him in a discussion of the definition of distortion, and how it is that he acquired the unique capacity to perceive it, for quite some time, without success. Ralph put his finger right on it in his last post; he is right; you/we are wrong. This does not upset me or make me angry, once I gave up ever trying to penetrate Raul's thought process. When confronting the Borg, resistance is futile. When confronting Raul, argument is fruitless. I am OK with that......, Really.
I agree with Tbg on distortion, FWIW. |
Rauliruegas, you sound like you are urging the scientific method and embracing your personal research. Science accepts no "experts" or "authorities." Without substantiations with data from "your research" you have no grounds to stand on. I suspect it is quite desirable to pursue low distortion, but not THD which turned out to be bs. I doubt if we have an adequate and valid measure of distortion of the kind that people say is just awful.
I would have been laughed off the podium had I said, believe what I said as it came from "deep personal research." |
Dear Raul,
Better English is "Who was it who..." Who is in the subjective case. "Whom" is the objective form and cannot be the subject of a sentence. I think in Spanish, "quien" is both subjective and objective. Your error is understandable.
So, if you made up the acronym "AHEE", you might have defined it earlier. (Maybe you did, but I missed it.) For months you have been ranting about AHEE, and I never really knew what you were talking about. I don't think any of my audio beliefs, correct or incorrect, were foisted upon me by some sinister cult power. My ignorance is entirely of my own making. |
"Dear mapman: Sources of truth?, it does not exist in formal way. They came from personal research deep research I can say.
"
Raul, the problem with that is that no man is perfect. WHat if you are wrong or missed something? How would you know? Good science does not happen in a vacuum usually. |
I see. Raul, in a nutshell you are making it sound like everyone is nuts (misinformed, whatever) except you. |
Dear mapman: Sources of truth?, it does not exist in formal way. They came from personal research deep research I can say.
Do you asked why almost no one likes ( AHEE ) to talk about distortions ( any kind )? distortions generated inside/outside at each single audio link in the audio system chain.
Distortions = Tabú
I support by some years now that the main quality performance differences in between audio systems are how hig or low are each one audio system distortions.
I support that the main target for any audiophile must be to lower any kind of distortions at any single link in their system chain. Because this means to have a more accurate and neutral audio system people " refuse " to do it because " they like what they listen right now " and don't want to be nearest to the recording.
Even the gentleman that started this thread made/make jokes on me because that " lower distortions " target .
I posted several times that the crucial/critical subject is not what you like or what I like or what people likes but WHAT IS WRONG OR RIGHT.
To accept that and to test it we have to have an UNBIASED attitude in all audio subjects/myths, to want an AHEE LIBERATION!!!!!!! because that AHEE in its today form is what stop the high end grow up!
A lot of creative audio item designers can't develop all that creativity when they already have the knowledge and skills to do it and they did not and don't do it even if they want it because the whole AHEE does not permit it does not leave them FREE!!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Halcro: I posted that we all are cautive and " victims " of the AHEE. Here an example where you were one more of those AHEE " victims ":
DaVinci Grandezza tonearm: you are a proudly owner of this tonearm. What's plain wrong with this design?
IMHO that the designers wanted that the star be the tonearm and not the other way around with the cartridge. In those times maybe they did not have very clear that a tonearm design main and whole target is to fulfill the cartridge needs.
Well, the original design that you own? does not permit azymuth changes according cartridge needs an according LP playback needs.
As you several audiophiles bought it and invest big dollars for it. Whom cares? no one of the owners because almost all were proudly to own that expensive and golden shiny tonearm.
All of us have to pay a very high price to learn outside the AHEE to can grow up in favor of MUSIC playback.
DaVinci manufacturer finally learned and after a while they designed a tonearm with azymuth mechanism and not only that but with a removable headhsell!!!!! when they were against both tonearm characteristics.
I know that like them you learned too but you are still an AHEE " victim " and there are several main and critical audio subjects where you are not willing to change and are " paying " the price listening day by day inferior quality MUSIC playback.
In some ways all of us are still looking the Eart as a flat " land " and we are ( almost ) satisfied with and that's why gentlemans like Atmasphere, you and several other ones still recomend:
" use your ears to decide. What you like it is the way to go " and this Earth flat subject is one of the main problems that the AHEE support any single day and why they support it?:
because mantaining on the ignorance side we the customers they can mantain us cautives and with out problems.
If we are ignorants we just don't ask for more.
What happen with the Timeline? started a " revolution " in the audiophile side. Everyone started almost for the first time if the TT we own was and is achieving the main TT design: speed and speed stability and this sole subject right now is a " problem " for the AHEE.
What if each single audiophile start to ask that the amplifier output impedance must match the speakers impedance curve to buy any amplifier?
what if each one audiophile start to ask no more SUTs in the phono stages to buy it?
what if each one audiophile start to ask for flat surface LP and perfect LP center hole to buy it?
what if....? what if.... ?
Can you figure what could happen inside the AHEE? and outside too?
IMHO that's the audio world where we all belongs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul,
You sound like you are well informed regarding AHEE untruths.
What are you non-AHEE sources of truth then? I would really like to know! |
"NO it's not, even you learned ( for the good or bad ) through the AHEE and your ears accustomed to what the AHEE taught to you."
You mean I shouldn't put all my trust in those guys who want to sell me something?
How about just a little here and there?
Seriously, I think there is truth to what Raul says in that the AHEE as referred to certainly have had a lot of influence on audiophiles over the years, but the fact is no two AHEE preach the exact same gospel usually.
SO people still decide who they will trust or not and how much.
There IS learning to be achieved through this process if done with common sense.
Its easy to trust ones ears and one must in the end, but its been well proven and becoming increasingly more widely accepted in teh business world that collaborative environments deliver better informed and more productive participants than those that are closed and that exclude certain viewpoints that might even seem to be frequently way off base. |
Halcro: Audiophile forums as part of the AHEE tend to help but unfortunatelly not as fast as need it.
Take a look to the last 100 of threads in this forum and see what people ask and read what other persons answered and more important: wich kind of audiophiles ask and answer and which kind of audio systems they own?
It does not matters all those " characteristics " the mature audiophile normally gives answers according what he learned through the AHEE through his audio life, he is not willing to change it self because the AHEE does not permit that he do it. He has no culprit about.
Take a look say to that latest thread on SUTs and you can confirm what I'm posting here.
You and me are an audiophile " by product " of the AHEE that step by step learned and liberated ( in some ways ) of the AHEE trend.
Like it or not the AHEE exist, call you as you want it but is a real " issue ". If you have a better name good, for me is the Audio High End Establishment.
Think a little on this: why exist in some threads a so " hot " posts between audiophiles ( like me ): because in one side are the ones that defend what they learned for years through the AHEE and that are not willing to change and in the other side are audiophiles that finally learned OUTSIDE the AHEE that what they learnend were way wrong. Inside those differences exist an ignorance level on both sides but that ignorance level is not the same.
Halcro: if you or any one taught you that 2 x 2 is 7 and all your life you was sure about what happen when some one tell you that that was wrong that in reality: 2 x 2 is 4!!
Come on the AHEE unfortunatelly still wants that we believe that the Earth is not round but flat/plane!
It's up to any one follow believing that.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
The internet forums are part of the AHEE.
R. |
The Internet has transformed how audiophiles do things, and the 'AHEE' has had to tag along. I think Ralph is spot-on with this comment. The average audiophile is so much more informed today because of the multitude of Forums such as this one........that the reviewers themselves have had to become better informed as a result. I can detect this change in the style and content of the writings in all the on-line reviews as well as the big two mags....Stereophile and TAS. The so-called AHEE is now on the back foot as Ralph implies.....and appears more a 'reflection' of current audiophile sentiment rather than a leader of it IMHO? |
I should have summarized better. What I am saying is that Hifi is much more than a collection of circuit boards populated with components and boxes sitting on a shelf. There is still art and craftsmanship involved in every step of the sound reproduction chain. That will never change and there will always be a segment of the population that will seek that special pleasure out. The EMT 927 and other turntables like it were built by adventurers willing to make the sacrifices and effort: little different from those that would climb Mt. Everest. |
Raul, I'm an engineer and it is easy to get overwhelmed when considering all of the design issues and technical hurdles involved with music reproduction and begin to think that making any music at all is near impossible. Step back a moment and consider sound reproduction as an art more than an engineering problem. How? Well, the music begins and ends with coils. Transformers is a good name for them because they transform the live music into electrical signals and then back into live music. The process starts with the coils in the microphones and transducers and goes to the coils in the cutting stylus. The vinyl disc is simply a mechanical record of the signals generated by the coils. (The master tapes are a record of the signals from the tape head coils). The phono cartridge coils reproduce these signals from the cutting stylus coils and then goes through the coils in the preamp/amp and finally to the speaker coils. In the whole sound reproduction chain nothing is more important than these coils. Some are mass produced on automated equipment and some are wound by the hands of master craftsman. Many people will tell you that some of the most esoteric gear rely on the art of the master craftsmen winding these coils- large or small. I'm not a EE but I believe the basic audio circuits have been around for decades. The application of new components such as wiring, capacitors, resistors, isolation, etc. make for the modern improvements in audio amplifiers. Circuitry is not nearly as interesting as the design and construction of the coils of wire in the stereo chain. I believe, Raul that it goes back to the basics- the theme that I see oft in your posts- purity of signal through top notch subcomponents, isolation and dampening and a rock solid time base; ie. stable platter speed. Just offering a different perspective here. |
Dear Atmasphere: +++++ " This is bogus and possibly insulting... " ++++
NO it's not, even you learned ( for the good or bad ) through the AHEE and your ears accustomed to what the AHEE taught to you.
Your ears can't decide on what you are not accustom to or don't know.
Please don't post as a manufacturer but as a cautive audiophile of the AHEE.
All what I posted to Lewm is what we learned trhough the AHEE and we " like " to follow that trend even if it's way wrong. I used to follow it too but I learned by my self against what the AHEE taught me.
I was on tubes till I learned, I was on SUTs till I learned, I was on LOMC till I learned, I was on BD TT till I learned, I was..., I was..., and was not the AHEE whom help me to learn about but my self/own " discoveries " and one after other audio subject were I change my mind was a lesson to me: that what the AHEE taught me was way wrong and as I said we audiophiles can't make almost nothing to modify that " corrupted " AHEE trend.
The AHEE was very carefully to hide vital audio information to us audiophiles/customers even today and these misinformation is the worst kind of corruption where we have not a single defense.
I don't want to go deeper on this whole subject because is full of trash.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Mapman, well, I well remember visiting a physician's home where he showed me a mass of name brand equipment all on display in his living room. After a while, I asked if I could hear it. He said that he didn't have time to get it up and working. Seemingly his system was to impress people with name brands and silently. I had never before run into such a person. So maybe you should say most buy what they hear and like. |
"We customers decide almost nothing on which audio item should I buy."
"Audiophiles have been lied to for nearly their entire life ('perfect sound for ever/we make the best'); audition is really the only solution until a particular voice they know gains credibility in their eyes."
YEp, as the wise sage Billy Joel sang "It's all about Trust".
Everyone decides for themselves what they buy and who they trust, right or wrong. |
