Phil, thanks for the comprehensive and thoughtful reply.
I have the Suoerfly's in my home theatre system at the moment while Harbeth SLH5's occupy the mins in my 2-channel setup.
Would you be able to pass comment on how the Quad Classic II's would pair with the Harbeths? I'm assuming that the 15W amps would be stretching it a bit (even though with the type of music I listen to and SPL's I listen at, I have no problems enjoying the Dignity 300b). The Harbeths are officially rated at 87 db sensitivity but have actually been measured in a review at closer to 91 db. I suppose the Classic II-40 would supply a little headroom.
Assuming you're familiar with the Harbeth house sound, do you think the Quad Classic would be a likely match?
Regards,
Dave |
Dave,
The Quad II circuit combines a long measure of the holistic presentation and tonal purity of a fine SET amp, with some of the bottom end discipline of a push-pull amplifier, without the excesses of either. My Audion 300B PSET mono blocks are the Golden Dreams -- their top amp. The Quad Jubilee mono blocks are not better than the sensational Audions, but they are much closer than the price disparity suggests. The Quad II was a very simple circuit -- there are only 13 caps and resistors in each mono block signal path, the rest of the componentry being tubes, transformers, choke and power supply filtering. They are the most SET-like push-pull amps I've heard, ever. The Quad II also is optimized for a 16 ohms load, so Druids or Superfly are perfect for them. Definitions less so.
I'm not enthusiastic about most 300B SET amps. Most are sweet and rich but also slow and euphonic. Audion's SET amps are an exception, being fast, transparent and beautiful. There are some others too. I haven't heard Dignity Audio, so can't directly comment. The Quad II circuit has some bass bloat compared to many more contemporary tube designs, especially those using diode rectification. But compared to the majority of SET and PSET amps, they are relatively controlled. The Quad II is also very quiet compared to most SET. For someone with Zu levels of efficiency who also wishes to avoid the noise, bass euphonia and tube exotica of SET, I think Quad II reissue amps are both a great buy (assuming a good preamp) and aurally beautiful. The reissue QII mono blocks are faithful in circuit and execution, plus there are reasonably good KT66s again, along with good 5881 subs.
If you can find a pair of Jubilee amps, their price may be off-putting, but that is the most convincing Quad II version I've heard -- some cryptically dismissive reviewer comments notwithstanding. But that's no reason not to buy the current ~$3000 Asian-built reissue. It's excellent in it's own right. And anyone fearing 15w just won't do it for them, the KT88 Quad Two-Forty emulates the II's simple clarity with more punch.
I haven't yet connected my Quad II Jubilees to my friend's Superfly speakers. I should get a chance to do that soon. But I know intimately how well they do on Druid 4-08 so extrapolating to Superfly isn't difficult. They will do even better. My Audion Golden Dream mono blocks are out for service. I'll have them back i. A week or so, at which point I can resume hearing the Quad IIs surprising me. I recommend the Quad II in reissue, Jubilee or rehabbed original form, for Zu higher impedance models, without reservation. The match to Definitions is more conditional due to the 6ohms speaker impedance. I'll be digging into that match, against 845 mono blocks, over the next week or two.
A pair of Quad II with good tubes will sound less "vintage-in-a-bad-way" than a stock Dyna Stereo 70. You can tune the sound somewhat via tube substitutions: more reticent with 5881 output tubes; a little more assertive with a GZ34 rectifier tube. I'm anxious to try the Shuguang carbon/polymer KT66, which should sound vivid and incisive. The Quad II has input sensitivity I'd 1.4v for full power, so put a strong line stage or preamp in front of it. I've been listening to the Jubilee amps in my Druids system for over a month. They could keep me happy indefinitely in that speaker.
Phil
Phil |
Pinging 213cobra...
Phil - just wondering if have been able to audition your recently acquired Quad II's on the Superfly. Your comments regarding their performance on the Druid sound promising.
I've googled the Jubilee edition - what a stunning looking pair of monoblocks.
I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little more on the sound of the Quad II's with the Druid (and specifically Soul if you've been able to audition). Information garnered on the "net" would seem to charactarize the sound as "vintage", I'm assuming quite euphonic. In your comments you identify the sound as very SET-like. Can provide some additional comments comparing/contrasting the Quad II sound with "modern" 300B (ie your Audion PSET).
Personally, I enjoy a warm, rich (not syrypy) tone with ample detail - it sounds like the Quads are right up this alley. I'm just wondering how it would compare on my Superflys with my current 300b (Dignity Audio DA-08S) monoblocks.
Your comments greatly appreciated Phil.
Regards,
Dave |
All are now probably on vacation.
Sit back relax and wait for yours to arrive. |
It's all gone very quiet. No more owners? No more photos? What's a boy to do? |
Gopher: My issue with Druids at flea-watt amps is not in bass, it is in midrange. And it has nothing to do with level.
I am surprised you like your VIRTUE. I have given up on class-d.
Themadmilkman: Yes, it is lack of exaggerated HF that make Druid sound so different from other hifi speakers, and more natural. This element I like, although I would not characterize sound as "sweet".
I do not like running druids much below 60Hz. Actually, I roll them off at 70Hz (heresey I know) and fill down to 35-40Hz with subwoofer. In large part this is requirement of room. And I am not someone who likes "slam" bass.
Did you listen to Four Season using flea-watt amp? I hate the congestion I got when W was too low. If you get more powerful amp, you will not have congestion with acoustic, full orchestra work (which is hardest test for speaker btw). Zu do perfectly credible job with this music if properly setup. |
David_ten, It's interesting that you find they have more soul with pentode mode over triode. I had a VAC amp that switched between, and my preference was always triode with the Essence, Devore super 8, 9 and the various Verity speakers I tried it with.
Maybe by more soul you are liking a more top to bottom and overall powerful experience? Are the mids better in triode or do you still prefer the pentode? I'm curious about how you find the texture in vocals and striking and sustain of chords between the two.
Anyway, sounds like you are enjoying them. Happy listening! |
Themadmilkman...... I have the Druids and due to the shipping costs to Australia I decided to try to upgrade them rather than ship out new Souls. I contacted Sean and after a few email exchanges he came up with a few ways to improve the Mk4/08 Driuds.
1. Paint the inside of the cabinet with Soundpaint or Quietcoat, 2 coats min (ala Soul)
2. Make a foam wedge (open cell)which fits into the cutout in the base plate of Druid with a 3/8" gap all round and extending upto the center of the tweeter.Stick the foam to the mesh with contact glue (Soul Essence ish) Improves bass and overall slam acording to Sean.
3. place a 1" dowel between the FRD and tweeter connecting the front and back of the cabinet.......glue in before soundpainting.
this is in addition to the Mudorf SIO cap and Duelund resistor upgrade (ala Soul)which I already have.
Another improvement I'm undertaking is to replace the FRD with Soul FRD. This require a resistor tweek from 12ohm to 10ohms.
all this is easily achievable for less than shipping (as I already have the High pass)
I'll report on the changes I find when completed. Even without the driver upgrade the box dampening/ foam wedge and extra brace will improve the Druid Sean suggests. |
After a week in triode mode (40wpc) I just switched to pentode (60wpc) with the Ayon Spirit II.
Music comes across fuller and with more body, and the bass seems to be more controlled. Had the name Soul not been in the mix, I would have started by saying that it feels like the music has more soul.
As a note, I prefer triode with the Gemme Tanto V2s, though the knob has to be turned up a bit more than in pentode, with the Gemmes (less efficient than the Zu's, of course).
Will have to listen in pentode mode over the next week and will provide more details in the main review at that time. New photos, hopefully by tomorrow. |
Sadly, I'm not the owner. Sean was kind enough to let me borrow them for a weekend (they went out to a friend who was fine with that arrangement) along with his amp. The yamamoto is an interesting piece of gear. The midrange really is golden, but I could never deal with the limited dynamics and lack of bass control. I have a feeling that I'd prefer the Soul with some real tube muscle. I know a lot of people swear by SETs with Zu speakers, but I'd love to hear it with a giant balanced tube amp.
Anyway, this weekend audition was my first experience with Zu speakers, so I can't compare it to the Druid or any others. I can say what I heard, though. I initially set up the speakers about 5 feet apart with me sitting on a fairly tall recliner about 5 feet away. The soundstaging was amazing in that setup, but the speakers had a very nasal qualify to them. Some rearranging of furniture ended up with the speakers where you see them in the pictures and me sitting about 7 feet back and on a shorter couch. I had the speakers pointed just slightly behind me. In this position they really opened up. I think the nasal quality was a refraction (is that the right word?) issue from sitting above axis.
Now for sound. I listen to a very wide variety of music, ranging from hip-hop to jazz to full orchestras to video game soundtracks. I found that I generally liked the Souls most with smaller groups and close-miked instruments. Buddy Guy's Blues Singer, for example, came across as very raw and in-your-face, which is precisely how it should sound. The Souls drew out every low-level detail you could imagine, from his fingers scratching across the strings to his hands smacking against the body of his guitar is presented to you in a very neutral and revealing manner. It feels like the speakers really get out of the way and let the recording come through.
I also enjoyed listening to Blue Man Group's Audio on the Souls, although the bass wasn't quite as full as I would have liked. It was accurate and extended, but it felt recessed. This was true with both the Yamamoto and my NAD integrated, which at 50wpc has more than enough power to control the Soul's bass. It may have been a room issue, but I think ultimately this one is a matter of personal taste. I like full room-shaking bass and I was unable to produce that with the Souls. I would really love to hear them matched with a Method sub. 2 of them would be even better.
The Souls feel very neutral. Nothing seems too exaggerated. My sister (a non-audiophile but definite music lover) came up to listen to them with me and said that overall they sounded "sweet," and I would agree. The lack of exaggerated high frequencies makes the sound sweet relative to a lot of more mainstream audiophile brands. She brought up the soundtracks to all of the Harry Potter movies, and I thoroughly enjoyed them, which surprised me slightly given how well the speakers took to just a man and his guitar. The Souls didn't provide the same sense of monumental scale that you would get out of a large multi-driver speaker, but the musical score itself did come across clearly and without distraction.
Of everything I listened to, the only time I was disappointed was during Gil Shaham's rendition of The Four Seasons. There were times that things would begin to sound really congested and some of the individual instruments would get lost. I don't have that issue with my Vandersteens, although my 1Cs definitely don't produce the sort of detail that the Soul can.
Anyway, I know this isn't your typical audiophile review, but this is how I listen. I like a speaker that lets me hear the artwork being produced without distraction. Minus my desire for fuller bass, the Soul did this admirably. I would recommend them just about anyone.
No wait, actually, I do have one other complaint. I like the monolithic look of the Druid better. I mentioned this to Sean and he said that other people have said the same thing, and that they hope to eventually develop a "new" Druid provided that they can get the same imposing stature and have it sound better than the Soul Superfly. If they manage that, I'll be first on the reservation list. I may have to sell a kidney to make it happen, but I will. |
Venicelake:
My experience with Druids has been similar to Zanon's. I've gone as low as 4.8 watts (Almarro A205) to as high as whatever Monarchy SM-70 Pro monoblocks will output into 12 ohms, plus a number of amps with power in between. In my system and room and to my ears, 4.8 watts just didn't cut it. I found the FRDs didn't really come alive until I gave them about 25 watts. For now I've settled on an Audiosector Patek that makes about 50 watts.
That doesn't invalidate Sean's Yamamoto or 213cobra's Quad IIs or anyone else's low power amp experience. One of the cool things about Zu speakers is you can drive them with almost anything, subject to your tastes and budget. If you ever talked to Sean, as I did, at length before I purchased my Druids, he'd tell you the same thing.
After you get your Souls, feel free to use any amp you please.
:-)
David |
Zanon,
I still don't fully subscribe to your belief that the Zus sound bad with low power, but I've gotta admit, I've now listened to them extensively with two amps with 35 tube watts and 85 ss and they do open things up a bit more than my Firstwatt.
It could just be the characteristics of the amps, but sound stage is a good bit more imersive and holographic with my Dynaco and borrowed Virtue TWO.2.
That said, the lower powered amp still offers the best bass performance of the three which is not something I associate with under powered amplification. |
Venicelake:
When I listen to my audio system I have very specific ideas about where it performs to my satisfaction and where it does not perform. I know what I like and do not like about my sound very clearly, and I also have clear ideas about what I want as next step. In general, I do not like trying any new component without knowing first what I want component to do. Then I can judge by "am I closer or far?"
In my system, the problems I hear with midbass and upperbass have little to do with Zu Druid and mostly to do with room. The problem I hear in tone up and down again have little to do with Druid and mostly to do with amplifier (I think).
Therefore, my next investment will be focused on those two areas. Not on changing druid.
Still, I am intersted to hear about Soul and very much want opportunity to listen to it. Maybe I can convince friend to buy it. |
Hey Zanon, madmilkman has posted pics of the soul with the designer/builders own 2 watt "yamplifier" Do you know something he doesn't? When are you getting your souls? |
Good to see more pictures but what's up with you people? You scared to go round the back or something? :)
Suspect there will be quite a few of us who recognise real world rooms like that. Good to see and, yes, actually the brown looks good.
My maple is wood rather than gloss or matte after much domestic negotiation. She's convinced it will look like the (supposedly maple) fireplace. I'm convinced it will look like the copper beech Hutter Racktime.
I shall post pictures and sound reports when the speakers arrive, however, I long ago abandoned any pretence at real photography when I acquired an iPhone. I suppose I could be sad; film it with the Flip HD and take some stills off of that.
Mike |
So, madmilkman you are the guy with the brown soul. Thanks for the pics. Now we need a full report on how they sound and what that yammy is doing for them. |
That brown doesn't look bad at all and I suspect my wife would have liked that better than the cosmic carbon.
I've got the same problem you appear to with a part of the sofa blocking a part of a speaker... I don't hear an obvious imbalance, but it drives me nuts knowing the interaction isn't ideal.
How does that Yamammoto drive your Souls? I've still gotta hear my Firstwatt with JFET update, but my limited experience tells me these speakers love tubes. |
What type of brown finish? This brown finish (pardon the mess, I have 2 small children and rearranged the living room to better handle the speakers): http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6408/dsc0094p.jpg http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3524/dsc0093l.jpg http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6372/dsc0095cx.jpg I wish I had better pictures of it. It's a very subtle color but looks great. And yes, that's Sean Casey's Yamamoto amp on the side there. A very interesting piece of gear, to say the least. |
Re. "I fell in love with the black trim and have decided to go for maple with black."
Mike,
Looking forward to seeing your photographs of the maple/black finish. Are you going with a matte or gloss maple finish?
Venicelake,
What type of brown finish?
- David. |
Hi folks.
Ever since I heard the Druids I Googled loads of images and really struggled with the piano black and silver trim. It was obviously just me but I found it looked a little old fashioned. Nothing wrong with that in many ways but it just didn't do anything for me.
I fell in love with the black trim and have decided to gp for maple with black. No idea how it will look but goodness knows there's enough speakers in maple with black trim and if it looks have as good as those then I will be very happy with that.
Let's face it. Zu speakers are finished magnificently so it should be impressive.
Must admit I can't take my eyes off David's pics. They're very sexy. |
I'd like to know what finish you went with also. I am waiting on some pics from Sean of a brown finish that an early customer requested. He indicated to me that it was only a $100 dollar upgrade. That being said I did like the cosmic gray color on the first pic in natural light. Anybody else able to provide pics? |
Hi Mike,
I think it is smart to make the investment in a finish that works for you.
The percentage seems large, but is off of a small base amount.
So much less expensive than working a decorating budget for a room around a pair of speakers.
What finish did you go with?
- David. |
David,
Interesting post as is your other post on the subject. I actually think it just is what it is and if there is a demand then other threads will thrive.
However... cracking photos. Convinced me I was right to not go for cosmic carbon but lovely to look at nevertheless.
Mike |
>>You need 40-50W minimum.<<
I recently had another experience that undermines any notion of a hard-and-fast rule about minimum power requirements for Zu speakers. Again, for the record, while I understand the enthusiasm some people, including Sean Casey and Adam DeCaria, have for the sound of 2w 45 SET amps (they've brought a Yamamoto to my own systems to try to convince me of it's viability as a match), flea power isn't sufficient for me. Some people will be thrilled with sub-ten-watts amplifiers on 101 db/w/m Zu speakers. However, I use 25w SET on both my Zu systems, 845 in one case and 300B PSET in another, in an open plan house where rooms aren't fully bounded. One room is 20' x 14' x 8.5'. The other is 22' x 12' x 10'.
I recently had a chance to buy a pair of NOS Quad II Jubilee mono block tube amps. The Quad II is, I've long maintained, the most SET-like push-pull tube amp. It's also only marginally more powerful than classic SET single tube designs at 15w each -- less than the big glass 845s and any number of PSET configurations. I don't need this pair of Quads; I just bought them because I wanted to own them.
The Quad II becomes marginal into low impedance speakers, but it's still quite viable into the 6ohms Zu Definition. Into 12ohms (Druid) and 16ohms (Soul) it's in its sweet spot, and a sweet spot it is. I heard a pair of Quad II on Druids a few years back, in passing, but not with a chance to listen closely. I put the current reissue as well as rehabbed originals on my list of recommended amps for Druids and Presence, particularly. But now Ive been able to listen for days on end and not only are these amps tonally beautiful, revealing and convincing but they are more than sufficient dynamically on Druids -- and by extension, Superfly. I will make a point of hearing them on Superfly soon, but I already know the answer, given my familiarity with the similarities, differences and assets between Druid 4-08 and Supefly, and the Quad II behavior into 16 ohms.
Designed in the early 1950s for it's 1953 debut, the Quad II represents Peter Walker's sense of innovation and responsibility against the backdrop of a still-struggling Britain in recovery from WWII. It's a simple circuit that wastes nothing in terms of resources. The amp was designed to be affordable in a nation still oriented to scarcity, built into a maximally-efficient packaging footprint requiring minimal sheet metal and parts. But nothing was skimped in the critical transformers.
Sure, today's legacy-informed Quad company has added 40w and 80w updates to the classic Quad II topology, bringing Tim DeParavicini to the task of improving on Peter Walker's elemental design from nearly 60 years ago. And of course they offer an excellent reissue of the original Quad II which is affordable by modern high-end standards.
I normally consider 15w below my satisfaction point for amplification with Zu speakers, but the Quad II upends that bias. Even a highly-dynamic Blu-Ray soundtrack isn't too much for it, in a room of my dimensions noted.
Phil |
The thread has posted and is titled:
Zu Soul Owners' Impressions: Standard / Superfly
and is listed at Audiogon under:
Community/Audio Reviews/Speakers
|
I have a suggestion regarding Zu Soul threads.
I recently spent a decent (read really significant) amount of time reading through all 6 pages of 285 posts and would like to make a recommendation that we subdivide the Zu Soul discussions into some primary sections.
I realize that Audiogon is not set up, first and foremost, as a discussion forum so this is not as easy to manage as it would be on other purely (primarily) discussion based audio forums. I also realize that threads can take on a life and direction of their own! Not much can be done to control that.
There is a lot of great information and debate within a number of the posts in the Zu Soul Superfly thread. And it would be great to be able to access some of these specific posts and areas more directly and with greater ease. Ideally, these sub-sections would grow to be more specific, pertinent, robust, and would dig deeper into the topic.
For example, one of the major discussion areas within the Zu Superfly thread is amplifier matching and synergy with the Superfly, another is general amplifier recommendations for pairing with the Superfly, and there is also a lot of coverage of the F amps. Each a possible dedicated thread in its own right.
Another example is impressions of the Superfly by owners who have received them. To this end, I have submitted a thread on Standard / Superfly Owner Impressions. Perhaps the primary posters in a particular area could take on creating a specific thread for the area that they have contributed most to.
Please know, that I do not want to de-rail this thread in any way. It has been a pleasure following its twists and turns and especially the sparring between 213Cobra and Zannon and I have learned a great deal through it. I will be happy to repost my thread/post under a streamlined Thread Header system that works for all.
Let me know what you think.
- David. |
People become passionate about this stuff. is OK, is part of hobby.
I think HF extension is biggest difference, Zu does not have it (which I think is much more natural than the artificial hi fi extension). They do sound different because of that.
and I don't want to open this discussion again but i think they sound lousy with flea amp. You need 40-50W minimum. |
I can understand what you're saying, but there are just so many accounts out there of people pationately disliking these speakers and I can't understand it.
I understand not every piece is for everyone, but I feel like this brand is far more polarizing than it should be. I mean, I've owned and heard a lot of things that don't do it for me and that I wouldn't recommend, but I'll readily acknowledge that every single high end speaker I've heard has had at least some redeeming values. These values seem to get overlooked by Zu naysayers.
I kind of expected them to sound very different and unique in signature to be so polarizing (like the Koetsu cartridge I used to own) but its presentation is very natural sounding to me... |
Gopher,
"I'm really confused as to why Zu speakers have been so controversial over the years."
Because:
A- They do not have "hi-fi" top end. Hi-Fi sound has extreme resolution/exaggerated HF. This make "hi-fi" crowd not like them.
B- Measure badly, and Zu not post its own measurements. This make "engineering hi-fi" crowd not like them.
C- Setup poorly, so sounded bad (recess HF plus upperbass/MF suckout plus freakish midbass). And played with inappropriate flea-watt amplification. this make normal people not like them (although I think most speaker setup badly does not seem to hurt them all)
D- they are different.
I think D is biggest reason, C is smallest. |
Mahughes,
I'll try and get a few more snapped this weekend for you.
Undertow,
Interesting thoughts. Hopefully they'll be able to move past it once the Soul gets more exposure. It will be easier to hear it sound its best w/o the plinth gap and placement sensitivity (from what I've read, never heard druids).
Everyone else,
I think I've completely flip flopped on my preference of my F1 to my restored/slightly upgraded Dynaco ST-70. The Firstwatt, though more detailed, with better top to bottom extension and resolution just sounds a bit my mechanical than the Dynaco.
I half wish I hadn't bought the JFETs to update my F1 to an F1J, as I'm actually quite content with the Dynaco, but I may as well finish the project I suppose... I suspect Zu speakers just prefer tubes though. |
Gopher,
"I'm really confused as to why Zu speakers have been so controversial over the years."
Because they were :
A- New to the Game
B- Mixed with many early 21st century Chinese copy gear, and or companies plagued with tech issues and name smearing early in the internet game. Most "Audiophiles" never saw a web page until early 2000's... Stereophile magazine, and too good to be true were the run of the mill advertising of the time.
C- And possibly the most controversial they heavily marketed direct, and with single driver wide band, no crossover voodoo. Which is like Tubes or vinyl to the mass marketed even upper scale boutique customers.
D- Entering a highly saturated audio market virtually at the peak of internet sales, Forums, and the revival of Vinyl... Who knows! |
Mrs. Gopher needs to post those pictures and we need to hunt down and stalk all the other owners.
Mike |
OK, I think I mis-read you and was concerned about input impedance.
Nelson Pass was goodly enough to post step by step instructions for the conversion on diyaudio as he does with all the Firstwatt deigns.
Step by step:
1) You match up a pair of SemiSouth R100's or equivalent and
drop them in for Q1 and Q2
2) You eliminate the Zener diodes
3) Raise the input cap values to 10 uF
4) Replace R1 through R4 with 22 ohms
5) Replace R5-R8 with 47K ohms
6) Set the bias pot to +14V on the Drains
All Greek to me, but I sourced the R100s from a group buy on diyaudio and have a competent friend willing to do the update.
Off topic--or back on topic, rather. These Soul Superflys have been the single most meaningful upgrade to my system. I'm listening many hours daily virtually every day. I'm really confused as to why Zu speakers have been so controversial over the years. Based on what I read on forums, I really expected them to have a weird sound but they sound very right to me, making real music.
The other owners really need to chime in! I feel like I'm all alone here. |
Gopher:
You will not have a problem. Your are telling me that your pre output is 700 ohm which is less than the critical number of 1500 ohms for the F1J. 10% x 15000 ohms = 1500 ohms (F1J input single-ended impedance is 15K ohms (K=1000) or 15000 ohms. 700 ohms < 1500 ohms, so you will have no problem. Now, I'm assuming that the person who will be updating your F1 will be doing what Mr. Pass does when he updates a F1. To be safe, have your guy contact Mr. Pass via email and discuss it with him. |
The rule of thumb is 10:1, that is, the input impedance is 10x the output impedance between the two components. I've also heard the rule of thumb is 20:1, but hey, it's a rule of thumb right, so the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, somewhere between 10:1 and 20:1.
MM Preamplifer has 700 ohms output impedance
700 ohms * 20 = 14Kohms
F1J amplifier has 15Kohms input impedance
14K < 15K
So you should be good. |
Regiggey,
Thanks for the concern. I asked my dealer who in turn asked the designer of my preamp and he said the following:
"I do not have the spec. of this F1J machine, but I guess it should be some SS power amp. The MM Pre has a cathode follower output stage, it should push this F1J fine."
A lot of the tech talk is lost on me, but I am concerned now reading this rule of thumb as the published specs are of my pre are:
Input Impedance: 100K Ohm
Output Impedance: 700 Ohm
Hmm, I already bought the damn Semisouth R100s and got an audio buddy to agree to do the update for me... Is this likely to be a poor match? |
Gopher:
I mentioned to you on 7/06/2010 about upgrading your F1 to the F1J. I've read here since that you are going to do so. One potentially huge difference (problem?) for you, especially if you are using a tube pre: the input impedance for the F1 is 100K ohms single-ended and the F1J is 15K ohms (note at www.firstwatt.com under products it says 100K and 10K respectively, clicking on F1J it says 15K single-ended). Rule of thumb (from conrad-johnson): pre output impedance < 10% x amp input impedance, i.e. your pre must be less than 1500 ohms or you will probably lose some of the low-end frequency. You might want to send an email to Nelson Pass at nelson@passlabs.com and discuss this, especially if your pre has an output impedance greater than 1500. I'm anxious to hear what you think of the Soul/F1J combo, if and when you finally upgrade. |
I changed a couple of variables in my system and gave the Dynaco another shot and I'm actually liking it a good bit more. I kept my reference ICs on my pre1 to F1/TWO.2 and threw on a "magwire" IC between my pre's second outs and the Dynaco and a pair silver speaker cables--(Grover SR, an old version I still have on hand) between the Dynaco and Souls and I've gotta say, its sounding great.
More balanced, lush and musical and very dramatic sound. I think I will keep this sucker as its matted to my extra cables anyway. Whether you believe some in cables or not or just consider them tone controls, this was a move towards what I was looking for in many respects. Interestingly I think I prefer how my digital sounds with my SS amps and analog with the tubes.
I'm very excited to have the option of switching between what I consider very good solid state and nice sounding tubes at will and without cluttering my living room.
As Phil stated in previous posts, the Superflys let you REALLY see the difference between different amplifier's presentations. That said, this will probably conclude my amp rolling for at least a little bit. I'll report back when I get the JFETs in my F1 though.
Time to go enjoy some music. |
Did you see the ones in my audigon system? I'm a crappy photographer, but I'll ask the wife to take some shortly if you want so more.
I'm keeping my F1 and upgrading it to an F1J. Hopefully this will be the ultimate for me.
I've resolved to sell the Dynaco-I don't prefer it to the Firstwatt or Virtue. Its very nice, but not what I want.
As for the Virtue TWO.2, I'm going to upgrade my enthusiasm over it. Until tonight I'd been using the integrated as a poweramp. Today I finally swapped the jumpers to bypass the volume pot (i.e. make it a power amp) and its REALLY kicking ass with the Soul Superflys. MUCH ballsier presentation--it finally SOUNDS more powerful to my ears. Very detailed, warm, engaging sound. I like what I'm hearing. This unit doesn't belong to me and is a loaner through another audio forum (but I'm tempted to make it mine depending on how the F1j fares).
Whether I buy it or not, for those out there with a tubed preamp, I'll give this an absolute recommendation for the Superflys. This thing is kicking some serious butt! |
We need more pics. To those who have received their souls- bust out with some pixels. Are you liking the cosmic carbon? I just got off the phone with Sean, since mine haven't shipped I am still talking color options, so I would love to see some in situ shots. Thanks |
Paul,
From the emails we've exchanged and from reading a lot on the forums, I'd love to pick up an F3 when one comes available. The Pass built one is out of my budget at the moment, but hopefully a rawson built clone will come up soon... it seems like people are really holding on to them these days since Tim retired.
Phil,
I think you are absolutely right. The stock Dynaco is a good recommendation for someone wanting to get into tubes inexpensively with these speakers, but not really an 'advanced' piece.
It does sound nice--fat warm ans as you noted euphonic, but it was putting me to sleep... literally. I was falling asleep an hour and a half earlier than usual with that amp.
I will say this though--listening to a couple other good amplifiers reminds me of how good the Firstwatt is and makes me realize I'll really need to step up to something 'great' to better it... tubes would be nice, but the experimenting I've done has taken away some of my feeling of urgency to move to something else and the thinking that my pairing is less than optimal. |
>>My 10wpc Firstwatt F1 sounds better to my ears than my Dynaco ST-70 (Zu recommended)<<
It's not surprising you'd prefer the F1 over the Stereo 70. A stock ST70 is certainly pleasant but in modern teems also quite flavored, however euphonically. It has very soft bass and extreme top end, and while it has energy, it doesn't deliver slam.
There are many circuit and parts modifications that push a more accurate sound through a ST70s excellent output transformers, but anyone expecting the transparency, bursty dynamic vitality, improved bass and extended treble along with traditional midrange appeal from an unmodified ST70 -- especially from a speaker as wideband and revealing as Superfly -- will be sweetly disappointed. it can be made quite good, but there ar many more contemporary alternatives.
I know Zu has recommended Dyna pairings wih Soul for people who want tube characteristics inexpensively, and that's right. But if you're starting with a FW F1 as your reference, you'll have to hear something more compelling than a stock ST70 to sell you on a tube amp, I think. And I say this as a former owner of many stock and modified Dyna 70s.
Phil |
Gopher,
Thanks for your (further) feedback. I may be in the market for a toddler-friendly HE speaker in the near-mid future and at a bargain price as I've drastically reduced my audio budget (and suffered little in doing so).
As I think I mentioned to you previously my favorite amp now is my FW F3. So close to the best SET and better in important ways too (bandwidth, noise floor). I am sure it would be a good match for the Soul (which has caught my eye).
[I really, really like my Cardersound Tybones but they are just begging to be knocked over by the 1 year-old. A couple close calls already. I figure they might be better off in the bedroom. Like some others here, I refuse to have a "man-cave", insisting that our main system be in the living room as a family centerpiece.]
I had a pair of Druids 4-5 years ago that I enjoyed very much. In the shop powered by a 2A3 SET, they helped me complete 25% of an airplane.
The Soul is undoubtedly superior, reasonably priced, and obviously toddler-proof with a high driver and fat bass resistant to disturbance.
I would suggest you try a FW F3. By all accounts it is much closer to the SET sound than the F1. When I had AN/Es (which I might return to if not for the same kid-friendly issues), the F3 and a Korneff 45 were a toss-up for me. That is saying something. |
I've used a few different amps at this point with my Souls and ironically, the lowest powered one has sounded the best. My 10wpc Firstwatt F1 sounds better to my ears than my Dynaco ST-70 (Zu recommended) and than a Virtue TWO.2 I have on loan (also briefly tried a borrowed Panasonic xr25 digital which I didn't care for).
All three amps sound great, but I plugged my F1 back in for the first time in a week today and its my preference. Better bass in terms of slam, texture and tightness. Its harmonically leaner than either of the other two but its simultaneously detailed and refined with a very live "raw" feeling. I wouldn't mind a little tube magic, but I'll have to keep searching for something that doesn't give up what the F1 does right to find it.
I've got a mid sized room and am not going to sweat over wattage. |
Hey Bill,
Don't you think the AA PX-25 would rock the Souls? I have a hard time believing not. As everyone knows that is one ballsy amp that can respectfully drive ~90 dB/6-ohm nominal speakers.
That said, talk of amp "requirements" are next to meaningless without establishing room size & volume requirements. It is surprising that so many such discussions go on here without giving those critical parameters their due. Everyone knows that the guy who wants 95 dB needs 10x the power of the guy who is quite happy at 85 dB!
IME a beefy 2A3 amp drove the Druid quite well. |
You could be waiting months for the Zu's to bed in, although this time of year is better for running speakers in, then when it is cold.
I suspect the other 8 or 9 owners are lying comostose in their listening chairs, surrounded by CD's and Albums, having forgotten to eat and drink due to their state or euphoria produced from their Zu Soul Superfly's ;)
James |
Ha,
I can assure you little will reduce my hard on right now :) Mind you, you people across the pond do seem prone to premature ejaculation. If I'd had a speaker two weeks I'd be letting it bed in and seeing how things warm up rather than thinking of changing caps :)
Thanks for all that Kemp88. It's all adding to the picture.
I'm wondeing if we can tempt some of the purchasers below your number to step out of the darknesss.
Mike |
What is the difference in sound between1 and 2 x1uf mundorf silver oils? I have a single mundorf 1uf on my Druid Mk4/08 tweet |
Undertow,
Thanks for the wise tip.
Kenp88 |
Mike,
Room is 21 x 21 with a much larger extended area to the side. And yes, $2,600 is still a very big steal. Furnishings are typical, a couple of soft chairs, big sofa, floor to ceiling curtains behind the furniture, hardwood floors with rugs, typical (hard and soft surfaces). Top end detail is not as crisp (in comparison to mids) as I might wish for, but see Undertow's good post. Pics would be unremarkable and would ruin your hard on.
Kenp88 |
