@darkblacksmoke
The VAC amps are amazing. I also have an older statement 450S (no iQ) for my smaller 2nd system. Of all a system’s components - the big VAC power amps were by far my most fruitful "splurge". For every other component slot, I’ve found cheaper items that yield similar or at least "close" results to my splurge-level items (of course a system’s components must synergize) - this includes the VAC preamp and phono. But I don’t know how to replace the big VAC amps - they’re wonderful. I particularly love them with Tung-Sol KT120.
As for the stock tubes you found - Kevin is not trying to be a broker of NOS tubes. His magic is in the voicing of components. I’ve done the KT120 swap and also prefer some of my old 6SN7 in V1, but for the most part these units sound awesome stock. I’m familiar with his choice of EH 6922 Gold and Shuguang 12AX7B (which are long OOP - he has a large stock). I think these sound very good, despite not being chic or expensive. I’ve got a large collection of NOS, and sometimes still choose Kevin’s 12AX7B for phono slots. Not familiar with the Gold Dragon 6922 (Shuguang?) - I thought it’s been a long time since VAC shipped any Gold Dragons. Of my vintage/NOS 6922, those tubes have been a huge pain in the ass for going noisy and various other gremlins - even sourced from reputable tube dealers. Just had a Brent Jesse Mazda 7308 go noisy on me, and before that an Amperex 7308 had its glass tube crumble out of the blue. I’m about to give the EH 6922 another go. I don’t blame Kevin for no longer supplying NOS. He used to favor Amperex 8416 when they were cheap and easy to find, btw.
Edit: I didn't know the Master has a "II" revision now, neat. Do you happen to know what that entails?
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The cost of tubes is another reason for going solid state.
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Their contribution was undoubtedly significant. The Gold Lions are a good sounding, generally reliable and long lived tube at a very accessible price point. I ran eight of them for the better part of a decade in my own kit.
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I replaced a quad of E-H KT88 with Gold Lions a while ago along with all my phono and preamp tubes. There was an overall improvement, but it's hard to tell how much was due to the power tubes.
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@rzado
Those prices are ludicrous. And I buy/sell that stuff everyday. And I feel horrible for charging HALF what those guys charge for that stuff. My god. Everyone thinks the crooks are on eBay when its more often than not the opposite.
TubeDepot's prices are outrageous. Their business practices are even worse. Years ago before I knew anything about anything I bought two pairs of tubes from them. RCA and Ei 12AX7, I still have the receipts. The RCA's that came were a short grey plate and a long-grey plate. The Ei's that came were a nickel plate and a smooth grey plate. I didn't know much then but I knew they looked different enough to warrant a phone call. So I called them asking if there had been a mistake or if I had ordered it wrong. They told me it was absolutely fine, it was intentional on their part, I had in fact ordered two RCA 7025s and technically they were both RCA 7025, and as such they were the same and that there would definitely be no difference in how one sounded from the other. Right, got it. Glad I paid an extra $6 per tube for balanced and matched tubes in addition to the $419.98 I paid for a pair of RCA tubes that weren't even a pair. Same with the Ei tubes. Though, I only paid $155.90 for the Ei tubes, which by way of comparison seems reasonable.
I still have all four of those tubes and the receipts. I use them as training/onboarding materials whenever I bring someone new on to explain which way our moral compass points.
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Funny they aren’t mentioned yet but the Russian Winged C 6550’s are readily available nos for under $100 each. My favorite power tubes ,and I’ve tried many, are the winged c el34’s and kt88’s.
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I’ve come to the conclusion that emergingsoul has no system at all and just wants us to think he does. No one would be as elusive as he has been. Fairly entertaining though.
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How do you like your VAC gear, specifically your amps? I have a couple MC275s I've run as monoblocks in a bi-amped setup (currently paired with Pass Labs xa160.8s.) that I think I'm ready repurpose and/or upgrade.
I had planned to buy a VAC Master II pre-amp this month but I re-tubed a couple for local clients over the past couple of weeks and didn't know whether to laugh or scream when I pulled the stock tubes out of them. So I've pumped the brakes a bit One had a pair of Golden Dragon 6922s in it along with 6 Shuguang 12AX7B's in the phono stage, the other a pair of garden variety EH 6922s, no phono stage. How they can plug a couple of $5 gumball machine tubes into a $30k pre-amp and think it's okay is simply beyond me. You could socket a grilled cheese in that thing and it would sound better. The Siemens E288CC Red Tips sure did.
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Yes power tubes have the most impact on sound. Next are signal tubes. Further, the first signal tube in the series has the most impact on sound.
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@emergingsoul
I sell tubes full-time for a living and I think you'll be looking for those elusive Siemens' 6550s for a very long time indeed because I don't believe they exist.
I love Siemens tubes and I'll tell you the closest thing to what I imagine a Siemens KT88 or 6550 would be/sound like that you can buy is the modernly made KR Audio KT88. At $400 a pop they aren't cheap and they are about as hard to get your hands on as the fabled Siemens 6550s. They are a nuanced, disciplined tube that is subtle in how great it is such that trained ears might appreciate it far more than ears just looking for "more."
Many say the KR Audio KT88's sound like NOS GEC/Genalex tubes. But I doubt too many of the many that say or have other opinions or claimed knowledge about them have ever actually heard them never mind spent the time to listen to them. I swap my KRs for my GECs on a weekly if not daily basis, and have for years, so I'll tell you that in the I don't think they sound similar at all. In fact, I always tell people if Siemens ever did make one, I expect it would sound like this (the KRs). And now I've told you, do what will with that.
Rockets,
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that depend on the amp and the circuit. more feedback = less audible sonic difference in manufacture of tubes.
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@emergingsoul
It’s so strange. I want to believe that your just putting us on, but in the end, I actually think that you’re really serious.
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I built an EL84 Single Ended amp. The donor amp camp with some JJ’s. Amp was very much missing something with the JJ’s. Ordered a pair of The Tube Store preferred series 7189’s.
The amp changed completely in its sonic presentation. It now sounds how I hoped it would sound.
But, as a single ended amp, swapping out a tube in this simple a circuit, will showcase tube differences kind of dramatically
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I'm looking forward to pic's of all these fine tubes you intend on purchasing - maybe even throw in a pic of your setup/room?
DeKay
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I think you should do this….replace your tube gear with solid state. You’re going to accomplish two major objectives - 1) have less noise in your system and 2) make less noise in the forums
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I'd say that the power tubes are the overall type of sound and the other tubes are more of fine tuning.
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Why on earth would the output tubes of a tubed amplifier be important to the sound. I really do wonder.
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And I was feeling bad because I needed 12 tubes. If you like the way it sounds now, stock tubes might be the best budget replacement. It you want more with great top end extension kT-88 Gold Lions sound very good. Yes, power tubes are everything.
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In my experience, the power tubes have just as much of an impact on sound as the preamp tubes.
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Are you sure you don't mean Sylvania 6550? Can't say I've ever heard of a Siemens 6550, and I've tried pretty much every NOS KT88/6550 variant out there over time. And some google searches yield zero hits.
Yes, going NOS 6550s will likely make a notable difference in sound (knowing the amp in question will help folks answer), but the question is whether it is worth the cost. If you want to go NOS, the GEC / Genalex have the best reputation (they were fantastic when I used them in an Air Tight ATM-2 - by far my favorite variant), but in the volumes you are looking at are basically unobtanium as NOS (if you need, say, 4 matched quads, you are looking at easily over $10k, and likely over $15k if you want something that is truly NOS and not just "tests as"). So substantial difference, but probably not worth the price.
Of the 6550s, you may be able to scrounge up 16 NOS Tung Sols in the grey plate variation (which are also nice sounding tubes), but you'd likely be looking at >$6k just for the tubes. Again, 16 Tung Sol black plates (the best sounding variation) are also likely unobtanium - TubeDepot is selling singles for $1k per tube).
In the more "reasonable" cost bracket, you are looking at GE or Sylvania 6550s. That will probably "only" run you ~$3-4k. But the question is whether that cost is worth it over something like the current Russian Gold Lion KT88s in your amp (which tube is better than the JJs, but of more reasonable cost than the NOS options). Or you could look at something like the KR KT88s. The EATs are nice but no longer made and also very hard to find. Even the Yugo type ii Ei KT-90s are getting ridiculously expensive - I have seen quads listed at $1700+.
In short, whether NOS power tubes -when you are talking 16 of them for your amps, are at all worth the difference is highly system and wallet dependent - which you haven't told us anything about. In the abstract, I think even moving from the JJs to the Gold Lions would be a nice little upgrade, and depending on how much difference you hear, you can then determine whether it makes sense to spend the serious coin on NOS.
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@emergingsoul I think that you are Hi-Fi hero to go for right-away upgrade before even turning the amp on or defining goals for replacing 16 working tubes.
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I did a lot of rolling on this class tube, kt88, kt66, 6L6, 7581a, 807A, russian tubes I don't remember the number of, and they all sounded different. It seems invariably I liked the new sound (human nature) at first but after going thorugh perhaps a dozen sets of tubes, I ended up back at the tube that the maker (Decware, Steve Deckert) had designed the amp around. Makes sense really.
Jerry
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@mulveling
Yes I am looking for siemens 6550. It does look elusive. And will have to revisit the source of recommendation whom is very good at what he does. I like to biamp so I'm using MC 901 monos from McIntosh. I like them a lot and they blend tube and solid state very nicely.
I do like VAC quite a bit and still think about it.
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I’ve always found power tubes more important to shaping the sound in ways that are meaningful to me. Small tubes can also be important to be sure, but a lot of times it’s an initial "wow!" impression, then over time I either tire of that variant or just want to hear a different flavor. I listen loud (more strain on power tubes), so perhaps that explains my findings.
With power tubes, my initial impressions tend to stick. The change from a KT88 to KT120 is especially significant in amps where I’ve tried this swap. Anyways, what’s your tube amp that has 16 freaking KT88 slots to replace with a non-existent Siemens 6550? (I know op won’t answer) To be fair, if the Siemens 6550 did exist, I’d prefer it over JJ.
I actually have a pair of VAC Master 300 that use 16 KT88 (plus 8 6SN7), and even with auto bias it’s a kind of a PITA to swap. The KT120 sound great here, too.
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