I’m very new to analog, and researching my options on forums I keep coming across the same sentiment: that past the ultra low-end cartridges, there is very little gains in actual sound quality and that all you’re getting are different styles and colorations to the sound.
So, for example, if I swapped out my $200 cartridge that came with my table for a Soundsmith, Dynavector, Oracle, etc, I may notice a small improvement in detail and dynamics, but I’m mostly just going to get a different flavor. Multiple people told me they perffered thier old vintage cartridges over modern laser-cut boron-necked diamonds.
It’s possible that these people are just desperately defending thier old junk and/or have never heard high end audio. But if what they’re saying is true, than the cartridge industry is a giant SCAM. If I blow 2.5k minimum on an Air Tight I better get a significant improvement over a $200 bundler — and if just all amounts to a different coloration, than that is a straight-up scam ripoff.
So guys — are these forums just BS-ing me here? Is it really a giant scam?
Dear @madavidO: """ I’m very new to analog """, no doubt about even if you did not posted about. Nothing wrong with be an analog roockie.
An analog roockie usually makes the wrong questions ( some one could say: stupid ones but in reality there are not stupid questions coming from a roockie. What it is is a very high ignorance level. It can’t in other way and I think you understand it. ) like you here.
In audio the word scam means different things for different audiophiles. What for me could be a scam for other gentleman can be a bargain or can be justified for what ever reason.
You made the very typical roockie mistake: bougth audio items like your MoFi rig at an audio show/fest.
""" the MoFi room was also running TAD Evolution Ones and high end electronics, so OF COURSE it was going to sound good...I was impressed with such a “modest” front end was up to it though. """
and because of what you listened you bougth what you have. You followed that post:
" The question is: ........ ", I think that before you ask what you posted there you have to ask your self: how good is the quality sound you are listening at your analog home system. Are you impressed?
Btw, MoFi does not manufacture cartridges and I think that MoFi buys from At and that your 200.00 bundler in reality is a 70.00 AT 90. Well, you are an analog rookie and you are starting in the analog learning curve, a very long long curve.
""" If I blow 2.5k minimum on an Air Tight ..... """
again wrong question/way of thinking. Two simple questions before that: have you the kind of money to buy that Air Tigth cartridge and what it needs? have you the rigth tonearm and phono stage to honor the Air Tigth cartridge?
Did you know that Air Tigth is not the manufacturer of the cartridges they has for sale?
As you for every one of us each single day in audio is a learning one.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
Oh, yes the Air Tigth overblow your blunder by a very wide margin, not only diferent colorations as you say.
When one first picks up an acoustic guitar, they would probably be hard pressed to identify much of a difference between a vintage Martin and a piece-of-garbage Esteban. (remember him?) But with time and development, one may become aware of the differences between instruments. Such is the case with audio. Then again, you may never hear a difference, in which case buying an expensive cartridge is silly. That's why they make cheap guitars, cheap pianos and cheap cartridges. Yes - more expensive does not always mean better. But unfortunately, in my experience, it often does.
As prices go up, it is almost always diminishing returns at best. You tend to get more bling factor and maybe more muscle in some cases for more $$$s but the bling factor of a phono cartridge is, well, pretty low.
The dl103R I use in my Linn table is about as far as I would likely go. I mostly play records once these days to transfer to music server and that is it. CDs get ripped right up front and never get played anymore.
Those with pricier, good quality tables who still strongly embrace vinyl still are likely to look around at the more expensive parts to go with it. Some might even drop $150 on a fuse whose only sales pitch is that it just sounds better for reasons unknown. It all depends on budget and how extreme one is with these things.
Like most things, those who actually know what they are doing are most likely to get the better results in the end regardless of cost and optimizing playback of vinyl is about as tricky a game as there is. Its still a science first and an art second though.
I'm touched by your concern for our sensitive selves, and presumably our pocketbooks. Be assured however that those of us that take the time to listen to a lot of cartridges and put our $ where we want can hear very substantial differences between different manufacturer's offerings and different points in the line
As others have pointed out to get the most from any cartridge setup and matching is absolutely critical and if you are going to spend four figures or up on a cartridge then you owe it to yourself to know how to set it up, and to invest in the tools for that purpose.
So I'm not at all sure where your strong online sentiment is coming from -- presumably from those who have never had the chance to spend a substantial amount of time with one of these transducers in their own system with commensurate ancillaries
OP- you got a lot of sarcastic responses to your original post, which many interpreted as trolling. Assuming that is not the case, then the answer is "It depends". It depends on the resolution of the rest of your system and how carefully it is set up. And then of course there is your own hearing and your own values. So properly set-up, on a properly matched arm of commensurate quality, on table of similar quality, with proper interconnects, fed into a good phono/ line stage and an appropriate amplifier properly matched to high resolution speakers, most people can "hear" the difference between a $200 bundled cartridge and a $2000 cartridge. OTOH, if you are dropping that $2K cart into an entry level TT with a $200 phono stage, you probably will not hear much difference. If you put top of the line tires on a Chevy Malibu, it’s not going make significantly better lap times on a race course. And yes, at the highest end we are talking different flavors of excellence. Maybe even the subtle distinctions between sirloin and rib-eye to make another analogy. Or between two different vintages of wine from the same vineyard. Some folks are happy with very good or even excellent, some folks want superb! It is also true that the law of diminishing returns is very strict at the bleeding edge. And that there are folks who automatically assume if it costs more, it’s better. T’aint so ;-)
If you are considering how to upgrade your analog front end, and you provide some additional info (primarily your phono/line stage, and amplifier) and what your budget is, you will get some good advice. For example, the Denon 103R is considered by many to be in the sweet spot of moderately priced phono cartridges. It costs under $400.00. But you have to have a phono stage with enough gain to handle a low output moving coil cartridge, or you have to buy a step-up transformer or head-amp to bring the 0.25 mV output up to the level that a typical phono stage can properly amplify.
Saying “an expensive cartridge sounds great in an expensive system” isn’t answering the question, it’s simply punting it into the realm where the premise can’t be easily tested. In fact I do go to audio shows, most recently Capital Audiofest which was dominated by vinyl systems. I ended up buying a MoFi StudioDeck based on the performance of the MoFi room there that was running a $2k table + cartridge bundle. My StudioDeck is a $1,150 bundle with a $200 Studio Tracker cartridge. Here’s the thing: the MoFi room was also running TAD Evolution Ones and high end electronics, so OF COURSE it was going to sound good...I was impressed with such a “modest” front end was up to it though. The question is: would moving up from its $500 MM to, say, a $4K MC result in a significant sonic improvement...or not? Likewise, would moving up from my $200 cartridge to, say, a $2k range cartridge result in a significant improvement in sound?
There seems to be a strong sentiment online that NO, there wouldn’t be a large improvement. The sound may change, but not improve by any significant amount. If that’s true, that seems to suggest that the high-end cartridge industry is just peddling woo to vulnerable audiophiles.
Not asking anyone to agree with me — in fact I’m inviting disagreement. "Nah those guys are full of it there’s a big difference when you move up the line," could be one response. But instead I’m getting roundabout confirmations. Only one responder has denied it, albeit in a very noncommittal way.
Yes, but you don’t have to come at things from a vitriolic over amped negative standpoint as an opening motion.
If you tried this at a bar, with strangers, you’d probably wake up with a few missing teeth.
No need to treat people here, who are essentially strangers, with the same psychological launching stratagem.
You are making for a bad forum, and harming other people’s businesses and lives for no good reason. The only thing seen, seemingly, is a lack of awareness and the effect this lack has on others.
It might make for OK conversation with people you know and who know you and are right there in front of you. But good text as the single communication.... it does not make.
For the record, for me, I categorically and respectfully disagree with your postulate. OK? My rebuttal is only soft in that you are free to disagree with me, but I would take it less seriously until you have done some critical listening yourself.
Others here are posting based on their personal experience, and their level of experience with “vintage” cartridges and their implementation might be considerably greater than my own. But I have carefully listened to a lot of high end systems starting in the early 70s, and the sum of the parts for a high end analog system sounds very different from then to now. For me. So of course is the price, which like everything has inflated due to monetary “inflation”, inflated expectations, inflated egos, and real advances in technologies, materials and effort.
In 1970, a “very good” but not SOTA turntable was $150, and a very good cartridge perhaps half to 3/4 of that. In today’s dollars, that would be about $1500. It is possible that you could buy a new setup with an mm cartidge for that amount that would sound as good as the 1970s combo, but I doubt it. In those days the vintage system would be played through the phono pre built into the amplifier and all gear connected using zip cord and skinny unsheilded RCAs.
Going the other way, a “very good” but not SOTA current analog front end with an MC cartridge and an outboard phono preamp would cost say $20,000 new. That is about $3,300 in 1970 dollars, which would be an unheard of amount to spend on a part of your hifi at the time for anyone but a movie producer. Inflation of all kinds in effect here.
All that said, the current “very good” system would likely sound better connected to the same modern backend than the 1970s “very good” system.
The system I described in my first post as revelatory was set up by Peter McGrath of Wilson Audio and Michael Fremer of Stereophile and Analog Planet and was very high end using Lyra cartridge, SME table, ARC electronics, Transparent cables and large Wilson speakers (Alexandria?). It cost probably $350,000.
That is $70,000 in mid seventies dollars. My guess is that would be a reasonable investment for a midling recording studio at the time. Home system? You would be laughed off my island, but maybe you ran with a different crowd at the time. Nothing I heard outside of a well engineered rock concert or well designed concert hall in the 1970s could come close to what came out of the system set up by Fremer and McGrath. Nothing else actually ever has.
So you ask “Cartridges: Complete Scam? I say no. The upper end of MC cartridges today played in a very high end system will sound more neutral, revealing and faster than high end vintage cartridges. In the middle range you really have to listen to different pickups in your system to decide what works and what does not, and where the value is. For you.
From good to exquisite is a long way, and many thousands of dollars.
If you have a good rig, you only need a "good" cartridge, an exquisite one would be a waste of money. I assume you know that a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link, meaning that an expensive cartridge will do you no good without "expensive" matching tone arm and turntable.
Last but not least is, how good is your hearing? When you take into account all these factors, an expensive cartridge might be a waste of money for you.
I agree with Randy-11 (above). however, even though there may not be a dramatic step up, the difference may very well be appreciated in the listener. Also, the cartridge has to be set up to its best advantage, and all the ancillary equipment must be complimentary.
Multiple people told me they perffered thier old vintage cartridges over modern laser-cut boron-necked diamonds.
In the 70's Technics used laser technology to make a tiny hole in the hollow pipe boron cantilever to mount their nude diamond of untla low mass. This is an old technology, but hollow pipe boron cantilevers are not available anymore for the today's manufacturers. In the 70s this technology was utilized in Moving Magnet design! Today it is not available even for the multi-thousand Moving Coil cartridges.
You may not understand what you're talking about, but in some point the vintage cartridges are indeed better and more affordable for "normal people". But it doesn't mean that very expensive modern MC are bad, sometimes the price is just 10 times as much if you are willing to buy good ones. So the question is $800 or $8000 ? For me it is not the question anymore, i would rather buy 10 vintage cartridges for $8000 than just one new MC for the same price. But in general those rare $800 MM from the 80s are very close or sometimes better than new $8000 MC in my opinion. The question is which one and that's why tryin' 10 different carts is better than hoping for full satisfaction with 1 overpriced MC.
Not asking anyone to agree with me — in fact I’m inviting disagreement. "Nah those guys are full of it there’s a big difference when you move up the line," could be one response. But instead I’m getting roundabout confirmations. Only one responder has denied it, albeit in a very noncommittal way.
Yeah, you pretty much set your threads up to get no real discussion. Your threads are basically polemics disguised as questions, with the seeming intent to prove to us how smart you are.
randy-11: "It’s a scam" stevecham: "It’s a scam" knownothing: "Not a scam" Inna: "It’s a scam" nandric: "It’s a scam" jmcgrogan2: "It’s a scam" jperry: "It’s a scam" geoffkait: "It’s a scam"
One issue might be that IF the geometry, you know, the vertical tracking angle, is not perfectly correct, if it’s off by 1/10 DEGREE, the distortion will be more than 100%. Without even getting into azimuth, overhang, etc. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to realize that records do not all have the same thickness. Therefore, you guessed it! The sound will almost ALWAYS BE DISTORTED. Hel-loo!
According to my mom I was not only the most handsome but also the most smart kid in the whole world. Well our carts are our babe's. But we all know the difference between objective and subjectieve part of the game. So in order to give objective appearance to our subjective preferences we use technical arguments and talk about materials , styli shapes, exotic cantilevers and even exotic magnets. Sometime the expression '''art'' was used instead but never elaborated. I would say ''painting '' is available to everyone but there is only one Michelangelo, etc. Consider the following list: Sugano, Takeda , Ikeda, Van den Hul, Allaerts , Andreoli (Magic Diamond), Carr and Lukatschek (Benz). I think that chakster mentioned in one of his latest post the ''case'' ''Fuuga''. The whole group of Takeda admirers who wanted to ''copy'' his Miyabi standard. This was ,alas, not possible so they produced their own ''Fuuga'' asking + $ 8000 for their ''baby''. There is this, uh, biological fact about man. They seem to want to produce as many kids as they can. So among my babies there are Ikeda's, Takeda's , Andreoli's , Allaerts , Lukatschek and Sugano.
I wouldn't be so harsh and I have an advice - if your tuntable/tonearm/phono are good enough "blow $2.5k minimum on an Air Tight I" and see for yourself. Or do you want us to "blow" this kind of money and give you a free decision-making advice? What do you offer to contribute to this forum? But yes, some do prefer some vintage cartridges to most or all modern ones, for whatever reasons, others don't and yet others have a more complex nuanced case by case opinion. Prices are high, true, but we pay far more in taxes to our caring government to keep watch over us, so why not pay a little more ?
Madavid0, I suggest you attend a music matters demo or one of the big audio trade shows where gear makers, sellers and reviewers have set up high end analog systems including state of the art cartridges in front of other outstanding equipment and hear for yourself if you think it sounds “colored” or only just as good as a “$200 bundler”.
My opinion, a decent $200 cartridge well set up and matched with arm in an excellent turntable can sound very, very good, and will allow you to hear why so many people get hooked on vinyl. But a well set up and matched say, Lyra Etna, will place you at the original performance. If you care about good audio reproduction, its kind of like trying to describe with words what its like to stand on the edge and look over the Grand Canyon. You just need to go listen.
And whatever you end up with, take time to set it up properly.
I’m amused by the rush-to-judgment-into-the-red-zone-sky-is-falling sentiment of the title of this thread. Why do you call it a Complete Scam instead of asking an intelligent question? Is it to attract readers who will respond?
This is a phishing exepdition that doesn’t deserve educated comment from readers who know about, and have experience with a variety of cartridges, including their relative value at certain price points, regardless of type and build. I’m not biting and I have a TON of experience here. I choose to save my input for a more enlightened and deserving poster.
Madavid: the whole audio industry is one giant rip-off so please, please stay far away and take up another pastime.
Are any of us getting as tired of the abject cynicism reflected in our time as I am?
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