CHANGING FROM AUDIO RESEARCH TO AUDIO NOTE SYSTEM 

good thread, good journey..my best to you.

consider a quick RT60 measure of your room vs. dealer as they seem wildly divergent…..

@pfmaudio 

Listen in your room, make notes and then discuss it with your dealer. You assume the alnicos and the signature speakers would sound better in your room which may not be the case depending on amp selection and room interaction. For instance, the alnicos are less efficient and some dealers believe the alnico version pairs better with their 211 amps vs their 300b amps. The an-e spe he is the sweet spot in the e lineup, quite versatile given its higher efficiency and combo of silver wire/copper vocecoils. But let your ears decide.

Do I like the el84 amp in the se signature guise vs the tonmeister silver? Absolutely but thats what I like…others would get angry if they happen to feel otherwise. You might enjoy the audio note speakers buried in the corners with your audio research setup…they would for sure be more dynamic than anything youve experienced and who knows, the drive of the arc gear combined with the damping factor might combine wonderfully in your room. Have fun, forget your preconceived notions and just listen.

@ghasley ,

thanks a lot for your post. I will definitely have the system in my room and listen to see if it works well. 
 

by the way, the speakers will be ANE SPe HE, which have the hempel woofer and high efficiency. At the time is the best I can afford. The price more than doubles for the signatures and it is almost 3x for the AlNiCo, which I believe would be the best option. 
 

do you think having the silver signature would be a great upgrade?

In no way at all do I agree with your characterization of the sophias as the audi, the audio note as Ford. New tech vs old tech as if new tech must sound better. The audio note speakers in the right system and the right room will sound exceptional. Same goes for your sophias. Dont let your new tech/old tech thoughts guide how you will hear before hearing. New tech cello vs old tech….new tech piano vs old tech. The audio note speakers arent meant to be inert like wilsons, they are meant to act like instruments.

Excellent point and agree 100%

i just do not buy that "new tech" is by default the superior choice, particularly in regard to music/audio matters. You have to listen and trust your ears and judgement.

Charles

@pfmaudio

Your concerns over the speakers is understandable, it happens all the time when we analyze potential outcomes rather than just listening. Room acoustics and technology can cause alot of heartburn….when, in fact, you are about to learn a great deal. You will know fairly quickly if the an-e’s couple with your room synergistically. I would also recommend that you suspend disbelief until you hear it in your room. In no way at all do I agree with your characterization of the sophias as the audi, the audio note as Ford. New tech vs old tech as if new tech must sound better. The audio note speakers in the right system and the right room will sound exceptional. Same goes for your sophias. Dont let your new tech/old tech thoughts guide how you will hear before hearing. New tech cello vs old tech….new tech piano vs old tech. The audio note speakers arent meant to be inert like wilsons, they are meant to act like instruments.

After my first post I had some more listening time to an AN system on my dealer. AN E  LX Hemp, 94 db, AN M2 Line preamp and P1 SE SIGNATURE power. 
 

returning home and listening TO the same tracks on my system, the sound seemed hard and aggressive, lesser texture and lesser tonality. my room at home has no treatment and the dealer has a lot of Treatment. The source was an AN transport plus DAC. At home is a Meridian G08. 
I have an offer to buy me back my REF150 and Sophia 3 and getting a P3 tonemeister silver and ANE SPE. For the power amp I feel comfortable on the change. However, for the loudspeakers, I feel I am exchanging a nice Audi for a good Ford. The later is very enjoyable to drive but the former is technologically superior. I don’t know if the image is good enough. But I feel I am trading a speaker technolohically more advanced for one with not such technical and innovative solutions but with a simple and sound engineering. 
 

I will have a home demo of the same system. 

@ghasley 

You are correct! SEP indeed… Dragon chasing is very much one of my personality defects. So deep in the rabbit hole I can barely see the exit.

After many hours of mucking about, I have managed to get all the voltages to where they are supposed to be in the amp. Without having access to a scope, I have to trust my ears when it comes to distortion and output volume. Certainly plays more than loud enough through my Cornwalls.  Now I just need to find the source of the 120hz hum. Rectifier tube? Filter caps? Ripple voltage? Ground loop? 

Should have the last issues resolved soon. Then I can put it in a couple of pretty boxes, upgrade the tubes and call it a day. 

Put some photos in my system page.

@perkri 

Cool experiment, I am envious of your skills…never could master the art of elegant soldering.

So, my oh so very inexpensive little SET amp will have to do some ongoing music duties before I make that change. 

If you like the sound of the el84 in your circuit it is technically a SEP (single ended pentode) just wait until you hear a true single ended triode well executed. As someone who has fallen into the SET rabbit hole, if you like what you hear, stop! It gets very expensive very quickly. Best wishes.

SET and front horns can have a natural synergy and you will not have to worry about output levels. Dynamic box speakers and a SET is kind of SETing yourself up for failure.

From the peanut gallery: very informed and entertaining thread!

Kind of relevant, but perhaps not?

So much praise is given to SET amplification and the magic flea watt amps produce with high efficiency speakers.

As financial resources are limited for me, and as I wanted to get a general sense of what a SET sound  signature was like, I bought a Heathkit SA-3 integrated amp off Kijiji. My plan was to replace all the resistors and capacitors and see what it sounded like. Well, that was an exercise in frustration. Something went wrong and I could not for the life of me find the source of the offending sound. So, I changed tactics…  Stripped it down completely, replaced all the resistors (again), capacitors (with audiophile grade caps), tube sockets and all the wires. Also built a new enclosure. As I write this, I realize all I bought was three transformers and some vintage tubes…

Finally finished it up last week. Worked my way up through my “collection” of speakers starting with the super inexpensive DIY experiments. Tuning the circuit and making adjustments along the way. As the speakers got better, the amp was improving and was matching better with the speakers. It’s about a 2 watt amp and did a surprisingly good job driving my ESL-57’s. Last night I replaced the ESL’s with the Cornwalls. (The SA-3 is an EL84 based amp - went that route because of the Decware SE84UFO…)

Everything I’ve read about SET tube amplification was confirmed when I hooked up the Cornwalls. I can see how people either connect with it or not. I happen to like it!

All that to say, I understand your desire to go the route you are going. I’ve certainly been bitten by the SET bug. For now…

My concern is how am I going to feel about this sound signature being the only one I have access to? (Should I get a “proper” SET amp and let go of my other gear to fund it) Only time will tell. So, my oh so very inexpensive little SET amp will have to do some ongoing music duties before I make that change. 

As far as the AN speakers, when I was at an audio show recently, it was the AN room with the AN-K speakers that “felt” right

I look forward to hearing how your journey ends.

Hi sns my monoes are the Siltech SEPA. (2004)There were only produced 15 pairs and we sololy sold to distributors over the world.

A really cost No objekt from the former Phillips ingenier Edwin van der Kley Rynveld. Who acqured  Siltech in start of the 90’.

The used tube is a special invented nuvistor type that in this configuration is making 80 W/ 8 Ohm.

The only drawbach for me is that is actually is not a ballanced design as the rest of my system. 
Several years ago i took all gear away from the middle of the speaker and placed it on the sidewall, and am going with 10mtr IC cabels, hence the need of the ballanced cabels. At High volumen simple a must.

I must admit that i love huge speakers, “there is No substitute for cubic.” also fitts well for speakers.

BTW the relatively common and available 805 is a DHT output tube capable of 50 watts pure class A SET.

Charles 

Wavac SH-833 monoblock power amplifier Specifications

The Wavac Sh 833 mono blocks,

Sidebar 1: Specifications

Description: Direct-heated-triode, single-ended, class-A tube monoblock power amplifier. Tube complement: one each WE437, 6550/KT88, SH-833. "Effective" power: 150W (no distortion percentage specified). Frequency range: 20Hz-100kHz. Input sensitivity: 1V. Input impedance: 100k ohms. Signal/noise ratio: >100dB (no reference level quoted).

As @larryi noted , very likely the 1610 tube is capable of considerable single tube power.

Charles

I believe there are 833 amps claiming 150 wpc.  Also, the ultra rare 1610 can probably do 80 wpc.  I tend to prefer the lower wattage, non-transmitter tube SETs, but 211 and 845 amps can be quite nice sounding. 

@thastum What monoblock SET amps provide 80WPC? The highest wattage SET I'm aware of use 845 tube which may provide somewhere around 20WPC.

@pfmaudio

an interesting experiment for you try, just for fun. A friend had a difficult room setup and had his Sasha Daws in a room that required placement closer to a wall/corner. They were boomy and completely overloaded the room, tonal balance all wonky. We devised a plan and fitted a flexible hose from a shop vacuum securely into the rear firing Wilson port and rerouted the port output to the front. The hose for each speaker was then terminated into a repurposed subwoofer enclosure where he could adjust the bass by adjusting the quantity of dampening fill in the enclosure. It shouldnt have worked well…but he still uses the contraption. People always ask what brand of subwoofer…LOL. Its an easy experiment to see if you can reclaim some floor space without losing the music.

This might give you some idea of room gain adjustability that your particular corners will project.

Therefore IMHO all AN speaker are all too small and so are there poweramps.

A sweeping broad brush statement if there ever was one. 😊 A clear example of to each their own.

Charles

Hi about a year ago i made a similar system change like you plan too. Going from a moderate efficient speakers and huge SS  monoblocks to High efficient speakers and to single ended tube monoblocks. (80W/8Ohm)

I think its likely easier to find superb sounding poweramps with small wattage than superb sounding mega wattage poweramp. 
you are looking at the right path, I am Sorry i didnt do it years ago.

Like many already wrote i too think the ARC Ref5 s.e. is a great preamp but i would strongly recomend to drive it with DR tubes and a good fuse as well as Stillpoints Ultra 6. (Like the rest of the equipment)

I had both the 40th Anniversary and the Ref 10 and they really excelled with these tweaks.

Another isue is weather you will go ballanced or singleended all the way.

My speakers are 100db/1W 8 ohm flat but still like min 80-100Wclass A or min 150AB if i want to shake the house so i would warn about too small amps if you like volumen at live levels.

Stay away from 4 Ohm speaker they stress the amps too much and best if you have min 10 db headroom, this eases the sound pretty much and huge trancients are played with ease.

Therefore IMHO all AN speaker are all too small and so are there poweramps.
Happe lisining
 

@ghasley ,

great point! We are on the same page about the REF5SE. This thread is being very useful to clear my ideas about the right move. I believe having a Shindo is difficult here in Portugal. It’s a dream and I believe I coud import it directly from Germany, but it’s risky without hearing it first. I believe Art Dudley reviewed the Sophia’s with a Shindo 25W amp and loved them. But it’s risky not to have a dealer in Portugal for service. 
 

I can try the AN E with a P3 Silver, which was my initial thought and see how it works. I believe I manage to have a demo in my room. And if one day an used M6 appears on the market ( I missed one for two days) I’ll get it. This move will allow me to keep the value of the ref 5 SE and if the demo goes fine have a starting point on the for the move to SET’s

@ghasley 

I hope I didnt confuse the issue more but I would be remiss if I didn't strongly communicate that the strength of your present system is your ref5se

• Good point and this would be the last component of the current audio system I'd replace. And again in the context of what @pfmaudio is seeking sonically you simply can't misstep with the mentioned Shindo,Jadis or AN amplifiers (With suitably chosen speakers). An interesting discussion for certain. At the minimum several well paved paths to get to Rome.
• Charles . 

@pfmaudio 

Disclaimer: The answer to your question is, of course, it depends. Since in my opinion, it is easier to segment the amplifier side of the conversation than the preamp side, I will offer my opinion there to start. There is no comparison on power/wpc, apples to oranges. My observations are in the context of a system with appropriately paired speakers.

The Audio Note SE versions and/or the SE Silver or Silver Signature versions of their amps will subjectively exceed the qualitative purity of performance of the ARC Ref150. PP vs single ended. For instance, I would take a P1/P2 SE Silver or Silver Signature over the Ref150 for tonal purity and texture. I would take a P1 SE Silver Signature over a the base P2 PP or base P3 Tonmeister. You really need to pick the speaker and then the amp, especially since Audio Note has so many variations of a particular theme.

I may be out of step with others but I would NOT purchase an Audio Note preamp below the M5 or M6 level coming from where you are coming from AND, even then, I'm not sure I would prefer it to your Ref5se. I will readily admit though that I prefer Shindo preamplification over ARC and ARC over Audio Note, especially in the context of a price band, so I am clearly biased. (I also prefer the Shindo Cortese 300b over the Tonmeister by a wide margin. Ive owned both and don't have any axe to grind.) I recognize that you are in Portugal and Shindo may be extremely difficult to source there. You may feel completely different though. For giggles once when I had the REF75se and Sasha 2's, I connected my 9wpc OTO SE Signature to the Sasha's and all the superlatives applied: the tone was superior, the bass was more musical, the midrange simply amazing. Normal listening levels...I was quite surprised. Now I'm not recommending this combo, it just showed the commitment to the Audio Note power supply implementation.

In short, if it were me, I would pick the new speaker, see how it sounds with your ref5se/ref150. Then drop in a demo audio note amp (or Jadis or whatever pairs best with the speaker you choose) of your choosing with the speakers and your ref5se and see how it sounds. I believe the ref5se is pretty special and you will have to spend alot of money in the Audio Note line to potentially exceed its performance. I say potentially because if the ref5se were being manufactured today, it would be a $15-20k preamp, its versatile, its fully balanced, it is warmer than current ARC pres, it has a really nice and linear remote volume control. It would be the flagship preamp for many manufacturers today.

I hope I didnt confuse the issue more but I would be remiss if I didn't strongly communicate that the strength of your present system is your ref5se.

There is one issue which I didn’t mention and is also a concern to me. What woul de the equivalent in AN to the system I have?
 

To the Wilson Sophia a level 3 or level 4 speaker? (AN-E-SPe HE or AN E SPE ALNICO, taking into account that I don’t want another box with external crossover)

To the REF5SE the M5 or M6?
 

To the REF150 I believe it is the P3 tonnmeister. Upper levels are monoblocks. 
 

the question is not easy to answer, because the sound of them is very different. 
 

if I want to change for a same level system where shoul I go? 
perhaps this is a no question, because if I like more the sound it doesn’t matter if the level is the same or not. What matters is the pleasure I get from the system. But anyway I wonder. 

I've gone with all Coincident and Esoteric . No vinyl . No computer audio .

Biamping with 2 sets of  monoblocks . Couldn't be more pleased .

@ghasley  Exactly. And what works for each of us can be radically different.

I have to say I'm enjoying this thread. Hope more offer their advice and perspective and choices, if different than what the OP has identified.

@david_ten That's what I figured...also, we both recognize that no one speaker checks all boxes. 

@ghasley I should have been more careful / specific and better in making the point I wanted to, in my post. Thanks for pushing for clarification.

I merely meant to state that it was great to see a mention of Living Voice,...they rarely see the light of day in posts on this forum.

My recommendation for Volti from my earlier post stands...primarily because they are front ported...and address many of the priorities of the OP.

I have a different position on Devore...but refrained (and will continue to) to be civil. : )

@david_ten I have immense respect for your postings, which are typically quite mindful. Are you and @ethereal_beats merely stating that Living Voice speakers generally deserve a look? If that's what you are saying, then I agree. They are wonderful speakers worthy of consideration and Gary is a gentleman's gentleman. If you are saying the OP should consider these for his/her application, I vehemently disagree with suggesting a rear ported speaker such as Living Voice for corner placement (unless they were designed for such ala Audio Note).

@ethereal_beats  +1  Also great to see Living Voice in the discussion!

I'm across the pond in the UK. Firstly, I do love ANUK systems and they are hard to fault depending on which level you buy into. But, I have another recommendation for you to consider, a company that came out of the principles of Audio Note UK but developed their own signature sound and now based in the USA.  

I've had Snell speakers J's & K's which Peter Quortrup would recommend with his Audio Innovation Valve amps back in the 1980's. I've had Audio Note J's & K's speakers, but never feel in love with E's.   

A ANUK dealer back in the day was Gary Dews from Border Patrol Valve amps, know running his operation out of Maryland USA. He created 300B SET amps to improve what he believed was the initial principles set out by ANUK but to drive the newly emerging Living Voice speakers by Kevin Scott. I auditioned the first Meishu and Border Patrol 300B and ended up with buying the BP300b, and have been on a Border Patrol Valve amp journey ever since.

I would recommend auditioning a Border Patrol system with either Living Voice Auditorium speakers or Volt Audio to compare against a pure ANUK system and let your ears be the judge.

I still use ANUK Cables and AN Dac, plus a BP Dac in my system but eventually built my own speakers.     

AN UK  or Japan?

personally stop researching while back who is who ? made the SET move long ago, Contacted Robyatt listened his Tektron gear I've got smitten by it, never go back to SS, HYBRID, PP , Whatsoever, 6J5 Preamplifier truly remarkable value, suck it and see .

@fredgolds,

I am located in Porto, Portugal.

My system is quite good and gives great musical moments.  But it is true that with the hearing I had with AN I got more emerged into the music and it was easier to listen. I believe my taste lies on the AN side, even tough I love the ARC sound, specially it’s truly outstanding and enormous soundstage. Wilson has the ability to disappear and is a truly great speaker. AN has a great tone and rhythm, an impressive bass for the size, although I am afraid it might get a little boomy. As   @jond said, I’m having great fun in this and it’s great to hear all you guys experiences and opinions.  
The main issue with AN, besides the price, is the absence of a Mono switch, which I value when listening to Mono LP’s and my turntable only allows for one arm. 

And none of the gear you're looking at is of the artificial showy nature than can impress in a quick demo. This is 1=all equipment to give you long term satisfaction

@jond 

I agree 100% that the components that have caught his ear are of  the caliber capable of impressing today, tomorrow  or 10 years down the road. The Jadis or Audio Note 300b amplifiers paired with a Charney, Volti, O-96 or an Audio Note speaker can achieve this long term satisfaction,  Patience with selection and then proper set-up and you are good to go. No doubt in regard to the excellent choices available. 

Charles 

I also very much like Charney and Volti Audio speakers if the OP wants to get into horns. The good news @pfmaudio is that you've obviously been able to listen to a lot of this gear. As others above have told you trust your ears if you think something sounds great then it does. And none of the gear you're looking at is of the artificial showy nature than can impress in a quick demo. This is 1=all equipment to give you long term satisfaction. It's a fun process I'm a bit jealous have fun with it!

Hello,

I like Jason..52 idea. I know a lot of people keep different components or speakers to change up the sound. That being said it all about if you like the sound in your room. I do have some sellers remorse sometimes. I hope you can heed his advise and keep both. 

@pfmaudio Take a look at the Volti Audio Rival. It will address your room placement preferences and constraints. It is also easy to drive and will work well with your move to SET amplification. Front ported. Corner friendly. Multiple finishes / looks. Crossover(s) are adjustable, which allows for room tuning, etc. I also believe it offers the type of "sound" you described you are looking for.

Nice to see mention of Charney as an option.

Volti Audio Rival 2

[Note: Reposted since the forum 'was down' (for me) while I was editing.]

@pfmaudio 

Sorry, typo where it states direct should read dissect.

@pfmaudio 

Hi, I started this hifi journey a couple of years ago. Last year I has the opportunity to experience AN and sold all my gear and build an all integrated AN system: AN Meishu Silver with E4300 and rest all NOS tubes, ANJ/Spe speakers, AN Cables all around, and a simple DAC. Marveled at what I get. 8W of pure haven. So much so that I have an order for a new AN Meishu Tonemeister Silver SE Integrated, and AN CD-5 CD Player and an AN 4.1x DAC. I have found that the AN Dealers do a lot of the speaker placement in your room to get the most of the system. My room is 15 x 13, and it is a dedicated room. 

I have heard Wilson speakers with Mcintosh, with VAC and with AR gear. The sound is incredible, but is a completely different presentation. If you are looking to direct what you are hearing, I believe you will be better served with your current system. If you want to turn on the music and wish you can continue listening for days on end AN is your route.

Don't know where you are located, but if in South Florida, Soundlux Audio is your to go place for AN.

Good luck.

I like the AN stuff having just demoed AN a month or so ago. I bought a pair of Charney Companions to pair with my Art Audio Jota/Lamm LL2. Charney I think is better in all categories. I'd have been happy with AN but what I have sounds as good as anything I've ever heard with that sense of immediacy or palpability or whatever it is that makes the SET/low impedance combo so compelling. 

I also must say that the AN system didn’t impress me as much as the Devore/ Jadis

@pfmaudio

This comment from you really solidifies in what direction you should head. Our interaction with listening to music is an emotionally deep and engaging one. Always choose the audio components that stir your musical soul and move you the most. It’s an utterly individual decision and as personal as anything can be.

I can sense that you are acutely aware of this. You currently have a very fine audio system (One that many would be proud and happy to own). Yet the Jadis 300b/Orangutan-96 got to you and I can understand why. I believe that you’re on the right track (For what pleases you most) and you’ll get this sorted  out.

Best wishes,

Charles

@charles1dad , When I heard the O96 with Jadis the preamp was a REF6, so the REF5Se will indeed work very very well with the JADIS, you’re right. 
 

@tomic601 , yes I am moving from one world to a different one, although choosing a tube amplification base like ARC started because I always liked the sound of tunes, even ARC, who narrows the gap between tube and ss. However, I want to change from high power pentodes to low power pure class A SET’s. It’s a move form the middle to the other extreme. 
 

@ghasley , great ideia. I Will send John an email regarding this and try the Ref80 on triode mode. 
However, I believe what had me hooked on the JADIS and O96 was the synergy between the two. Not only the sound of the O96 but also the sound of SET’s by JADIS. 

Another try is changing only the power and speakers for the AN and in the future waiting for an used AN preamp ( I saw an used Phono M6 in Choice HiFi, but when I called it was already sold). With this option I would reduce the inicial cost. There’s an issue with this solution. I wanted to reduce the number os boxes in the room. With the M3 Phono, I would sell my ARC PH7, using the phono stage of M2 plus a SUT for my MC cartridge.This way I would be in audio heaven. As I have my TT and phono preamp away from the loudspeakers, power and preamp, I need a 20ft cable ( I am using Transprent Reference SE) and I believe it is a weak point in the system. My idea is to put the M3 near the TT and SUT and then connect to the power with a 20ft cable. It will be better solution. But I can always do it in the future. 

You are running from one end of the Baskin Robbins flavor bar to the other…

I think the best advice you got was keep the REF5se w semi custom Devore.

But the pleasure principle is paramount, go for it !

Like my buddy with Viking horns and Jadis says : “ I know it’s not accurate, i don’t care. Every violin and snare is immersed in honey butter scotch “… he may have said scotch… but his toe was tapping, who am i to judge.

My one bit of advice…listen for hours, then leap

In my opinion : I do like the cd-players,dac and poweramp of Audio Note. The préamp AR  is very good ! The poweramps less. I do prefer AN :sound is very good ! One of my favorites !

@richopp if the OP remains committed to corner placement, there is zero chance Maggies ever darken his door. Secondly, its a bit of a strecth dont you think for you to recommend speakers like Maggies when the OP is considering 8wpc SET amplification?

After you audition the Audio Note system IN YOUR ROOM, have your dealer replace your Wilson speakers with the newest Magnepan speakers. Listen again to BOTH sets of HW.

Yes, you may want more booms, so get a sub if you think you need it (older Decca orchestra vinyl could us it).

Listen for a few days with each system.  Bet you keep the Audio Research and buy the Maggies if your room is right and the dealer sets them up correctly.  If he/she doesn't move them until you don't hear speakers, but only music.

THEN you will get it.

Cheers, and happy listening with whatever you end up with.

@OP,  I like the rec by Mr. Bourne above.  How possible is it for you to keep two systems or have options open so you can go back and forth?  That may be something you aren't interested though.  

Just my opinion I've heard 096's, in a Shindo system, not in my own room. They sounded great but I prefer my AN-J's a real sleeper in the AN lineup.