Could Class D really be that good?

I first heard about the 1656 from a description of the LSA Discovery Warp 1 amp. I bought some and put them in place of the 1612s in the Purifi factory input board. Did not like them, not as musical as 1612. You might love them....but trust only your OWN ears.....not what others say. Most people act like sheep.....just following and repeating what others say somewhere. How about the "You just need to have the impedance 10 times higher for a preamp to amp match".....another words, a 100 ohm output impedance is fine driving an amp with 1K input impedance. Who the heck made up that statement? But you see it repeated on forums over and over. My 50 ohm output impedance source sounded better with a 150K load than it did with a 50K load. How about bypssing caps....."The rule is that you need a bypass cap that is one tenth the value". What a bunch of nonesense. You need the value and type that sounds best with the main cap. Many use .02uf to bypass large caps. You must listen to know. You must love to really know love. Please Love more......more often and more deeply. Makes you happy.

Did you not read what I said?  I said the amps will all measure the same.....this is absolutely true.  While it is true that when changing parts the distortion changes....because all noise and veils are distortion.  However, you CANNOT measure a change in measured distortion when changing passive parts. 

@ricevs Oh I read what you said. But it was false, as is the above statement. You certainly can measure a change in distortion when passive parts are replaced! The idea that this isn't so is laughable.

Yes, some will laugh at their own folly.  I would llike to see you prove this statement: "You certainly can measure a change in distortion when passive parts are replaced!"  Show us the beef!  Where are your graphs?  Show us the volumes of statements from other high end audio designers who have tested this and show graphs.....please.......I have NEVER in my entire life heard of any high end audio designer, engineer, manufacturer say this except for you.  If this statement were true then every time a manufacturer made the sound better by upgrading the jacks, fuses, wires, resistors, damping of parts, capacitors, power supplies, power supply parts, etc. into infinity.....they would state it.....and they would show graphs to prove it. They would say.  We found a better cap.....we replaced our super last years cap with a new one and not only does it sound better but the distortion went down .001 percent of distortion.  But no one has ever said this....because you CANNOT measure the distortion of most parts. 

A Furutech AC inlet sounds better than the one you use.  If you replaced yours with a Furutech would your amp measure better?  (By the way, the Furutech ones with Rodium plating sound different from the ones with gold plating....same with their NCF technology.....do they measure differently?  does Furutech claim such?).  Removing the steel hardware on your power supply transformer and raising it off the chassis improves the sound.  Can you measure that?  I listened to three different brands of tiny .1 percent nichrome surface mount resistors that all looked the same and all of them had slightly magnetic end caps.  This was a 75 ohm resistor on the output of a Crystek clock.  One brand sounded much better than the others.  Did that change the measurements of the Oppo I was modding?  Hardly.

If you are using junk parts....like bad electolytics, ceramics, very inductive resistors and put them in a sensitive place then not only will the device sound bad but it will measure worse than using a better made part.  But what high end manufacturer uses junk ceramics as a feedback or coupling cap?  The knowledge on caps and their sound and distortion was first published in Audio Magazine by Marsh and Jung back in 1980....I am sure you remember that.  That article changed what high end manufacturers did.  They realized that bad dialectric caps sounded bad.....so they all changed to film caps and the high end electrolytic caps market (Elna, Blackgate, etc.) started.  Conrad Johnson started using all film caps in their power supply (no electrolytics whatsoever).  However, every brand of super high end film caps sounds different (including all the various models from the same company).  For instance....Clarity cap makes many models of film caps.  They claim the better ones "sound better".  There is no mention of lower distortion measurements on their site.  If they could measure lower distortion....they would brag about it....obviously.

Ralph, I wish you the best.....but if you are going to sit all by yourself on that tiny branch and saw away......well, eventually.....you fall.  

Here is an article about using really bad parts in portable audio devices......yes, those seriously bad parts can be measured.......However, we cannot measure the parts that are used in high end audio......unless you are Ralph....he must have super sensitive test equipment no manufacturer of better sounding parts has.

I don't believe it's necessary for components to be of poor quality to show disparities in measurement. Take the Fosi V3 and Aiyima A07 as examples. Both of them use the TI TPA 3255 module, but Fosi utilizes quality passive parts like Japanese/German capacitors and inductors. Both use the same stock op-amp (active). These disparities in the quality of passive parts are sufficient to produce audible differences in THD, as shown in ASR measurements.

Sorry, wrong.  You have no idea what is producing those different numbers.  You just want to believe in something.  Those Wima Polyester caps that they use (both Fosi and Ayima now use the in all their latest gear) are crap.  I replace them with modified Wima polyprop caps that are oriented so the outside foil is to ground.  The Ayima Max and all the latest Fosi and Ayima amps all use the same inductors and capacitors yet still measure different.  Lots of things in the design can influence the measurements.  Fosi is now adding feedback around the output coil and this lowers the distortion and makes it less load variant (ie....measures flat at 8 ohms and 4 ohms).  The only way to know if a single component (or several) changes the sound and or measurement is to use the same amp and just change the parts.  Then you will actually KNOW something.

I have NEVER in my entire life heard of any high end audio designer, engineer, manufacturer say this

Hm. Not been around, apparently.

The only way to know if a single component (or several) changes the sound and or measurement is to use the same amp and just change the parts.

Wait- what? So if you change parts it does change the measurements?

Boy you just keep sawing on that limb.......you cannot say anything but the same thing over and over and you know you are wrong and cannot prove otherwise. You alone hold your opinion. I have been around since 1975 and in the industry since then. I did not say it changed the measurements.....but if you are going to look for a different measurement than that is the way you would do it......using one amp or device.

Please prove you are correct. Show us the measurements......You know you cannot or you would have done so by now. You know you are wrong and just keep saying you are right. Would you rather be LOVING or RIGHT. Some would rather be dead right then ever admit that they were wrong. Are you one of them?

You are not your thoughts....you are not your opinion. You are infinite love and joy....and always will be....forever and ever. You can let go of your opinions because next life you won’t even remember them....you will obsessed with something else you need to let go of....he he.

When you really truly love yourself at your core.....you cannot do or say anything that is not in harmony with your soul.....you speak truth. Please love yourself more. I would love you to be more happy. Having pretend opinions...to be right...is not happy creating. Growing up and admitting you are wrong is the hardest thing to do. We are all so stubborn (me too). It is so easy to be bad......to be righteous......it is hard to be loving. It takes great courage to be loving. For we fear rejection....as we reject ourselves. Look in the mirror when you first get up in the morning and smile at yourself and tell yourself out loud that you love yourself and are beautiful. Do this several times every day.....Caress your face like your mother did when you were a baby. I do it when I drive. Wave at people. Tell people how beautiful they are and thank them for sharing their light with the world. Treat yourself and everyone as if they/you are your pet or baby. This is the way to really start to feel love for yourself. There is just God loving itself. You are your mother....the mother of all.....loving your self and everyone. Forever. This is the truth of your soul. Bless everyone.....forever.

Alright, it is fun discussion but counter-productive (to me) talking these technical issues phyosophically.  Call me stuborn but, before making any major purchase / investment, I would like to see positive / superior objective measurements on the particular model I intend to purchase to get the maximal bang for the buck.  I will also do my due diligence to get the users' and revierers' (I thrust) feedback and get a feel how it sounds.  I won't make my decision just based on diyers claiming that all Purifi / Hypex based modules (including power supply) measured the same.  Different implementation in the input buffer makes significant difference!  And that is true!

I don't think you are subborn.  You are just checking out all possibilities.  However, ASR themselves say that super low distortion is not required for "perfect sound"  Only a certain measurement of SINAD is needed.  They like lower measurments but they never claim they sound better....because they believe everything that measures below their SINAD value is perfectly transparent.

It is not just the input stage that changes the sound in a Pufifi amp build.....it is the damping of parts and the input board.....the cables, the AC inlet, the output connectors, the quality of parts on the input board. etc. to infinity.  I modify the Sparko regulators and the Sparko pro op amps for better sound.  I modifiy the ouput filter caps on the Purifi boards by removing all 6 on each board and removing the distortion producing steel leads and soldering 6N copper leads using Wonder Solder.  I then test the caps for outside foil and put them all back in so the outside foil is to ground on all the caps.  This makes a noticeable sonic improvement......and no, I bet you cannot measure it.  Look at the reviews of the NAD Purifi amp and my modded Purifi amp on 10 Audio.......he says my amp is way better and even with the mods it is cheaper than the NAD.  This game is infinite......just like our own nature. Eveything makes a difference and most things that make a sonic improvement cannot be measured.

Ric,

I really admire what you do and wish I could learn that skill set someday. It's a pretty good review, and I congratulate you on the impressive 9.5 out of 10 score you received for your mod. I agree that measurements do not imply sound quality, and I believe the listening part of the assessment is greatly lacking in the ASR review. Nevertheless, it is suggested that you send your mods to ASR for his complimentary measurements. Coupling with the excellent listening review you have received, a potential outcome from getting more comprehensive measurements done is that the forum will get to know your mods, your sales will be boosted, and the community will benefit from it. A win-win situation.

@eddnog  I didn’t see any results from anywhere testing the V3 Mono specifically with a 5A power supply versus a 10A, making it even more difficult to say.

Erin just shows the test result today. 'Single' means single amp fed by 48v, 5A psu and 'Double' means double amps fed by 48v, 10A psu.  Having individual 48v, 5A psu feeding to the v3 mono does have 10dB advantage in THD. Interesting. 

@lanx0003 well…guess I should be glad that I went with the dual 48V/5A option, then! Granted, I always believed that in the spirit of actually running separate monoblocs, it would imply powering them with actually separate power supplies as well. It should not be a huge surprise that there are actual benefits to doing it this way. The detriment is always to the wallet, yeah? But in the grand scheme of our beautiful hobby, this specific cost difference isn’t all that huge.

-Ed

@eddnog  Same here. I made a last-minute switch to the separates based on my instinct. I recalled that the overall package deals were identical during the pledge.

Does anyone know how the NuForce/NuPrime class D stuff stacks up? They seem like they've put more thought and research into the stuff than just using reference class D designs.

The only way to know if a single component (or several) changes the sound and or measurement is to use the same amp and just change the parts.  Then you will actually KNOW something.

This statement contradicts this one:

I did not say it changed the measurements....

I have found over the years that when someone is willing to contradict themselves in an argument, its never about the truth of the matter; its only about trying to make the other person wrong.

This makes a noticeable sonic improvement......and no, I bet you cannot measure it. 

(emphasis added)

Despite the obvious syntax error, the above statement suggests that no attempt was made to measure any of the changes introduced. The reason you would want to do measurements after changing anything in a class D circuit is noise and parasitics can show up, which can interfere with other equipment, for example an FM tuner or digital equipment sitting nearby. Bruno, the designer of the Purifi and Hypex modules, is very emphatic about this in his papers.

@lanx0003 BTW, if anyone tells you they have 6N (6 Nines, IOW 99.9999% copper) copper wire, if you are in their presence it might be sensible to turn and run as hard as you can. 6Ns copper is a myth; it does not exist. Wire manufacturers just laugh if you suggest this sort of thing to them. What is real is OFC (Oxygen Free Copper), which was not developed for audiophile applications (see the link).

It's funny how you can find cables labeled as 6N, or even 7N/8N OCC or OFC all over Amazon and AliExpress, and they're incredibly cheap. It's amazing to see the quality control and production efficiency of the plants in China these days???  I am a bit being sarcastic.

Ralph,

It took you two days to reply and that is all you can come up with? You will say anything just to make me look bad so you can feel you are right.....wow! The two statements are not contradictory......I said "if it changes the measuremets". Again, never implied it did. You are just making something up to make me look bad, so that people might dismiss the fact that you stated something untrue. You are lying.....plain and simple. You cannot measure the distortion in high end used passive components......that is a lie.....and you know it. You have never proved that you can....and no other designer (that I know of) has ever said this except you.

The only way you can prove you are correct is to show measurements. The only intelligent (non ego driven) response to this post would be that:.....your measurements....your quotes from others who have tried this and show their measurements. Any other reply would just be from your ego.....(defending your postiion...without proof). So is the statement you made true? If so, prove it. Othewise it is a lie.

Why would someone make up stuff and post it online? I try to state what I know about....that is directly experienced or relay info from others who directly experience stuff.

I wish you well, but stating something on a public forum that is not true and then defending the statement by trying to make someone look bad who points out your untruth (rather that prove your original statement).....does not help your reputation. Why would I trust anything else you say if you just make up stuff and post it?

Now you are saying 6N copper is a myth. Can you prove it? Is this a belief or a BE LIVE? Please show us the measurements. From what I read, the claims of 7N and 8N are made up, but 6N can be real.  All wire sounds different no matter what the amount of claimed Oxygen free level. A single piece of wire will sound different depending on the direction it is used.....even PCOCC wire. All above sonic statements tested with my ears....so it’s a BE LIVE. Belden make the Iconoclast insterconnect cables and those guys are VERY scientific.....however, they make three different versions....pitch copper, OFC and PCOCC. They go up in price accordingly. Every one who has reviewed them agrees that the PCOCC ones sound the most transparent. Everything makes a difference....my usual statement. And Everything is LOVE.....the statement of the Universe....every second. Enjoy.

A simple upgrade is to order the Fosi with the 48 volt power brick. Go to ASR to read the recent test report.

I did try the 48-volt PSU, but the truth is, it doesn't deliver better sound than the 32-volt PSU at normal listening levels or even at 80-85 dB. Surprisingly, the 32-volt PSU offers cleaner sound, leading me to believe that it is the better and less noisy SMPS option. Moreover, in terms of power requirements, the 32-volt PSU proves to be more than sufficient for a small to medium-sized room.  The 48 volt psu also drives the amp unit noticeably warmer than the 32 volt which will potentially shorten the left span of the amplifier.  Not recommended.

I am with ricevs. As I do with many pieces and doing it for over 50 years, I finally got around to chassis damping my LSA GAN 350, including changing out the stock rubber feet. What I hear now vs stock, are cleaner, faster and more agile sounding transients, more air around the instruments, greater articulation with the "playing" of the instruments, and greater dynamic contrasts. The rear panel alone was very "alive and ringy", and now it is dead silent. The power cord, interconnect cables and speaker cables all have a quieter environment to contend with. Everything makes a difference in what I hear. Could care less if it is measurable. GANFETS, to my ears and in my system, are the most enjoyable class D I have heard, and in the last 18 months, I have heard many. My best, MrD.

Any comparisons between Fosi V3 and Za3 ? With 32v or 48v

+1 mr decibal

Recently, Steve Guttenberg compared several class D amps on his YouTube channel. worth listening to

I have both a Ric Shultz EVS 1200 and a LSA Voyager 350 Gan amp. Both are great amps, especially for <$3000. I've seen an occasional Voyager listed for under $2000

@jl35 They are pretty much the same based on my recollection after seeing several reviews and demos. I decided on v3 primarily because of its pre-out feature, so I could do bi-amping later on with other class A amp.

For those contemplating the question of this thread, you aren't the only ones:

https://pmamagazine.org/is-class-d-amplification-now-better-than-class-a-b-and-class-a/

@ricevs 

It took you two days to reply and that is all you can come up with?

Yes. Not worth worrying about on weekends.

@atmasphere Ralph, great post and thank you for sharing. I also enjoy your afternoon talk here, which helps me understand some of the intricacies of class D design.

Thanks lanx, just ordered the V3 with the 32v

Class D amps have been getting better and better.  You have the "all you need is more feedback to lower the distortion" people....Bruno, for instance....and you have the "all you need is a certain kind of distortion" people ......Ralph, for instance..... you have the "all you need is a tube buffer to sweeten it up" people....PS Audio, for instance, you have the "We are using the best Ganfets....all the rest use junk" people.....AGD for instance, etc.  However, it is not just one thing.....this is what I say over and over.  AGD has had two updates to their "tubey thang" and everyone agrees the latest is the best sounding.....they are still using the same "magic Ganfets" they used in the original version.  Look at the Aavik amps that use the Pascal modules.....they have different versions of the basically same amp but they add more "active Tesla circuits"....more dither circuits, use a more damped and low hysteresis chassis (made from copper) and use more tweaky feet in their more expensive ones.....same Pascal module used in each one.....but all the reviews state the more expensive ones sound better.  So, they are selling you more tweaked versions.  This is exactly what I do to Purifi, Ncore, etc. amps......I tweak them to make them sound better.  They will not measure any better.....just like the various more expensive Aaviks don't measure any better.....they just sound better.  The new $10K Ganfet amp from Mytek has been promised for over 3 years......but supposedly is starting to ship soon?....he he.  Like waiting for Godot.  Laiv audio is said to be working on a GAN class d amp.  Their new $2700 Harmony DAC is the latest rage.  .  It is interesting that Aavik now has a class A amp as their reference amp....so they think class a is still the best (well, for $70K, it better sound great!). However, they are using a stock? Pascal module in their class D amps.   What if they used their own super class D circuit or one from AGD or Purifi or Ralph or whatever?  Still much more evolution to be had here.  Class A transistor amps really started to get tweaked back in the late 70s......class D really on has maybe10 years of serious tweaking. Here is a link to a post on Audio Circle where two people describe the difference between using the stock polyester Wima output filter caps and my modified Polypropylene Wima caps.  The comments worth reading are on the first page and the last page......everything in between is mostly people arguing about nothing

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118868.0

@jl35 glad can of some help. enjoy listening.

NAD’s Director of Technology, Greg Stidsen, had this to say: “Like all amplifier classes, there are advantages and disadvantages to class-D.  What is attractive about class-D is its relative efficiency and freedom from the vagaries of parts quality. In a linear amplifier such as class-A or class-AB, parts-matching and very close tolerances are required to get the best results, and even then, there is a limit to performance since the linearity of semiconductors varies considerably with temperature.

“With class-D, it’s more the quality of the mathematics and engineering that determines the performance,” Greg said.  “Another way of saying this is that in a linear amplifier the design is fairly simple, but the execution is critical; in a switching amplifier, the design is very difficult, but the execution is straightforward.”

https://pmamagazine.org/is-class-d-amplification-now-better-than-class-a-b-and-class-a/

(Emphasis added)

Greg put this pretty well. 

The statement from Greg just shows his ignorance. Of course, you do not need to have matched fets at the input of your class D amp.....you can just use inferior sounding integrated circuit ICs.....he he. He does not listen to parts and execution in his class A/B amps nor in his class D amps. NAD is not a high end tweak company like VAC, AGD, Aavik, Gryphon, Merrill, etc. These guys listen to everything including the parts and execution in their class D amps......as stated above about AGD and Aavik. Just read the review on 10 Audio about the NAD C298 Purifi based amp and then read his review of my modded VTV Purifi amp (which costs less with the mods than the NAD does stock). He rated the NAD at a 6 (extremely low rating from him) with mine a 9.5 bordering on a 10. You can keep quoting people who do not tweak all day long but it does not stop the truth as known by actual listening tests.....Emprical knowledge.....directly experienced listening tests are the ONLY proof of transparency......not what someone says (including me) on a forum or what someone believes. Everything makes a difference......and that includes the parts and execution in class D amps. The latest rage Fosi and Ayima cheap amps using the TDA 3255 class D chips all have sockets for changing the op amps that are buffers before the class D chip. People all over the world have changed those op amps and get different sound.....You, however claim that in a low gain circuit that all op amps have no sound. You are again a minority of one here.....thousands of audiophiles and manufacturers would disagree. Look at all the Purifi and Hypex amps out their that are being sold that offer different op amp choices. They are not doing that to just make money.....but to tailor the sound. Again, everything makes a difference.

People all over the world have changed those op amps and get different sound.....You, however claim that in a low gain circuit that all op amps have no sound. You are again a minority of one here.....thousands of audiophiles and manufacturers would disagree.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but when you can change an opamp (if its modern, hi performance) and hear a change (other than noise floor), one of two things is happening: 1) confirmation bias, or 2) the circuit has a design flaw.

Opamps have seen a lot of evolution over the last 75 years; guitar stomp pedals and synthesizers from long ago won't sound right if you install newer hi performance ICs instead of the original types. This is because older opamps indeed have a 'sound'. Modern ones do too if you don't use them correctly.

Put another way, the statement in the quote above is false; I never said that 'all opamps have no sound'. Clearly you don't read my posts or you would know that.

Anyone can open a class D amp and change how it sounds! Quite often their changes result in greater noise.

From your posts it appears to me as if you think you know more than other designers. So its curious that you haven't designed a module of your own long ago!

Wow, you just stated that all modern op amps are perfect. Yes, you did not state that all opamps made since the beginning of time were perfect (yes, I did not quote you correctly). What you stated before was just what you said: "all modern opamps".....you probably mean after 1980?....I quess that is when you stopped listening. All "modern" op amps have a sound and it is not confimation bias or a bad design flaw. This is where thousands of people (including world class designers) disagree with you. They know that certain brands of op amp sound differently (and most believe discrete op amps are the most transparent). But you have to listen to know.....something you do not do (at least with op amps).

The changes I do to class D amps lower the perceived noise. You hear farther into the recording.....more decay, more ambience, better imaging, more correct harmonic structure, more transparent and real......this is REAL noise reduction.....not some number on a graph. I do no know more about basic design than most designers, however I have more practical knowledge of implementaion and parts and how they affect the sound than most designers. I have been doing listening tests since the mid 70s....and was the first person (back in the late 70s), that I know of, that did straight wire bypass tests on wire....yes, no wire was perfect....

The companies that usually make the best sound do both....they design and they tweak like crazy. That is why they keep updating their stuff.....like the guy at AGD. Check out this page on Burson Audio. Go to the bottom of the page and see all the pics of customers products that were upgraded using their op amps.....you can keep loading more and more and more of them. These people have circuits that are flawed and they have expectation bias?.....come on......This is just the tip of the iceberg worldwide. At the top of the page are Utube reviews of the op amps. You can keep making stuff up and believing it and telling the world about it.......but it is not truth unless it passes the listenng tests. The people who have listened do not agree with you. Burson is now in their 7th generation of discrete op amp....they never stop tweaking....for they know there is no perfection. it is a goal. When you get to the top of the mountain......you look for higher mountains to climb......same with our soul. Love is infinite......the more you eat....the more hungry you become. It is the ULTIMATE ADDICTION.....bringing the highest joy......for everyone.

Wow, you just stated that all modern op amps are perfect.

Uh, no, I didn't. This sort of comment on your part is known as a Strawman; its a logical fallacy and false by definition.

In an effort to get things back to a "friendlier" tone...does anyone have any experience with the hybrid GaN FeT amps from "Response Audio"? One amp uses a 12au7 tube input stage while another amp other uses a DHT 300B tube input stage. They look quite interesting!

Wow, that is the best you can do.  You just stated above that any modern op amp has no sound (will not change the sound).  No sound is most peoples definition of "perfect"...or perfectly transparent......Again.....the people who listen do not agree.  Now what little thing that I just wrote will be your next victum of you ego defense mechanism.  Give it a rest....please.  If you keep saying untruth.....then I will have to counter with truth.  Please, all there is is love.  Please do more listening and post some listening test truths.  This will be most helpful.

grk,

Thanks for that link.  Probably? using the Orchard GaN modules after the tube in the smaller amp.  $3600-$4000 is a nice price range.  You can get a tube front end on the high powered Purifi from VTV for about $3000.  Lots of cool stuff out there.  The 300 B version has no price yet.......probably $5K or more.

I do not run a class D amplifier, so take this with a grain of salt.....though it does apply IMO. A tube preamp (or preamp section), can mate extremely well with solid state amplifiers.

I have the recently updated CODA S5.5 class A SS amplifier that is truly a marvel, and was initially driving it with a Denafrips Hades preamp.....which is much better than I ever gave it credit.

I recently added an Aric Audio Motherlode XL preamp, and my god what a revelation. I'd consider a tube preamp, or an amplifier with a tube input stage....it might be the best of both worlds for you

Hypex Nilai renders a new level of sonic refinement over the pre ious modules, ice power included. The most underrated out there atm. I’m looking forward to getting the diy kit for the Nilai 500 amp myself. 

You just stated above that any modern op amp has no sound (will not change the sound). 

@ricevs 

The above statement is false. Here is what I actually said:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but when you can change an opamp (if its modern, hi performance) and hear a change (other than noise floor), one of two things is happening: 1) confirmation bias, or 2) the circuit has a design flaw.

That isn't me saying 'any modern opamp has no sound'!

What I am saying is that if you know how to design with opamps, and if you compare high performance opamps, then you will not hear any difference other than perhaps the noise floor.

I know there are companies that make a living selling opamps based on them having a 'sound'. But any engineer finds that sort of thing to be a facepalm event. It means either the opamp is poor performance compared to what is readily available (and probably for a lot less money) or the circuit in which it is used is poorly designed, or both.

I knew you could not leave it alone.....you had to have the last statement....so, i will not comment and let the readers here decide for themselves who has truth and who is blowing smoke.

If you want to know something about anything.....then do some research. The internet is a vast wealth of knowledge......but one persons opinion means very little. Don’t be a sheep or a lemming.......After finding out what MANY others say then find out empirically *with your senses" what is true, for YOURSELF. Listen and know. Do not believe me or anyone. Do your own research.....be your own creator, your own God.....for we are made in the image of the almighty. We CAN KNOW for ourself, what is really true about anything......including what is our true spiritual identity/reality......In MY EXPERIENCE......we are all love. and incredibly beautiful and amazing. The truth shall set you free......free from your ego mind.....free from worry.....free from death.....for we are eternal. Happy forever!

@ricevs

The measurements don’t change but anyone can hear a difference? This is a huge discovery, and understanding what is going on will advance science. If you can figure out a way to show what it is we are hearing with some new measurement your name will go down in history. Heck, if you can even demonstrate that people are hearing a difference in well conducted tests, and nobody can measure a difference, that alone will get you in the history books. We’ll have a huge scientific mystery to look in to.

You’ve got to do it man, for the sake of scientific progress! If you get good data out there, even the most resistant, hardened skeptics will have to relent. In time, they'll thank you for it.

This is not a discovery. Those that have listened, have known this since audio reproduction and measureing equipment were invented. Most things that make a sonic difference cannot be measured.......plain and simple. Why would I care to convince some science measurement addicts that this is true. Its maybe 20% of people who think of themselves as audiophiles who believe that way. I say, let them have their playground. But when they come into our commonly heald public presence.....and speak their non-listening.....no real empirical knowledge BS.....then we need to speak our listened to truth and wish them a nice journey.

The ego is very stubborn......ever heard the term "dead right". A non believer will not even attend a listening session with believers (try inviting Ralph to your op amp rolling listening session).......If they heard a difference then they would have been wrong all this time and if they told everyone in the room they heard no difference....then those people would think they are deaf or stubborn and never trust what that person says from that point on. The ego wants to maintain the status quo.....if you say in public the sun is blue....then your ego will defend that position till you die or admit you were wrong......and who wants to admit they were wrong.

The whole problem here is false identification. We think we are our bodies, feelings, thoughts, sex, race, religion, etc. WE are NONE Of that. We are infinite spirit. We don’t need to cling to thoughts and "protect" ourselves from each other......WE are truly all one......one big blob of love. The mind cannot hold this infinity that we are....so we pretend we are less than the all that is and judge ourselves and everyone. When you realize that you are the MOTHER of all creation (creating every single thing you experience and that everyone experiences)......and also everything in the whole universe is ALSO the MOTHER of all creation......and that creation is happening every single second of the forever that we are......it changes you.....You treat everyone and everything as your BABY, your young chiild, your pet....your ultimate lover. Divine mother is everywhere. You are divine mother......Happy Mothers day.......it is always mothers day. Kisses and hugs.

@asctim I can't seem to convince that guy that what he's saying about me is wrong. 🙄

@ricevs This is not a discovery. Those that have listened, have known this since audio reproduction and measureing equipment were invented. Most things that make a sonic difference cannot be measured.......plain and simple.

This was true back sometime in the 1980s. But measurement tech like nearly all other technologies has improved quite a lot in the last 30-35 years :)

But many people don't realize that, and worse yet, wouldn't understand the import of the measurements if they saw them- and quite often, they are not published. So the myth (as purported above) continues.

These days there is a direct line between what we can hear and what we can measure. The tricky bit might be understanding what to measure...

Ralph, Prove it. Show us the measurements and the correlating listening tests.....you cannot. You just have Myths that you make up. Yes, it is not published because it does not exist. The only thing tricky is your mind here......you cannot fool anyone. You need to show proof. Your words are tricky (reality is real).....show us the beef! Show us the measurements that show how all op amps sound different.....since everyone who listens thinks they sound different. If they sound different there must be a measurement (according to you). But, of course, to you they all sound the same.....so why measure. How long will you keep up this charade? Till death do you part? Are you married to your opinion? Can you laugh at yourself? Can you feel the love and bliss that exist right now?

@ricevs 

I assure you, it will be counted as a discovery with your name on it if you'll just demonstrate this phenomenon. The science of audio and human hearing will be moved forward, and the big blob of love that we are will grow more lovingly. 

asctim,

I hereby assign you to the task you want me to do. You surely want your name in lights because you talk about it. Please, get to work now.....please try to prove the unprovable.....good luck.

Love grows by attention to love. Give everyone more attention....this is the way love grows......"Shower the people you love, with love....show them the way that you feel"........the people you love is everyone.....Every single person you meet from this moment on.....wants something from you......this reality is now imbedded in your brain from this moment till eternity......and what they want is to be loved and noticed and appreciated.....every single person. The only reason why there is violence and lying and anything negative.....is because someone feels unloved.....pretty darn simple.....but it is hard to remember to be loving in every circumtance. This is our task.....to grow in love. Keep loving......never stop loving.

Start in the morning by looking in the mirror and gently stroking your face and tell yourself outloud how beautiful you are and how much you love yourself....smile at yourself......Do this as much as possible everyday....will change your life......then when you do this to others it will blow the whole universe to pieces......OMG....I love you so much.

So on one hand we have a designer/builder/entrepreneur who has been building and selling top quality products for a number of years. On the other hand, we have a  ..... tweaker, who modifies other people's original designs. Hmm... who is right? Tough choice man!

The one with the truth is the one with the truth. Does not matter what the backround is of a person. By the way, I have manufactured DACs, amps, and passive preamps.....see EVS Millennium DACs on Audio review....had my passive preamp rated class A in Stereophile for 7 years......worked for Monster Cable, MFA, Sota and have had my own audiophile company since 1989......I bean around the block. It is not about taking sides.....it is about truth. What I say is true....and thousands and thousands of audio designers, engineers, and audiophiles from all around the world agree. What Ralph says.......very, very few agree with. Who is right does not matter.....what matters is that we know what is true. Again, test everything yourself. Have you tried different op amps and listened? Have you tried different passive components and measured them? If not, what do you know? This is not about wanting someone to be right or wanting something to be right.....this is about what is true. And the only way you know what is true in audio is to listen.......choose your favorite components with your ears.......choose your audio knowledge with your ears. As I said before, do not believe anyone....if you do then you are a SHEEP.....just repeating someone elses thoughts......do your own research.....be a smart person.......be self motivated....think for yourself. And most important of all....love yourself and everyone with all your heart and soul.

It is not questionable that we need the designers. What folks like ricevs and angela gilbert yeung do is " take a design that they like ", and simply improve upon it. Anything can be improved. A few years ago I was contacted by a friend of a friend, who wanted me to work on an older, very high end ss amp, retailing about $20K when introduced. My reputation proceeded me😏. All six sides of the chassis, the heatsinks and many other areas inside were so tinny and resonant. The top panel and heatsinks were an embarrassment for a 20K amplifier. Ring ring ring . Anyway, I damped the crap out of it, changed out the rubber feet, created a quieter mechanical isolation between the transformers and the chassis, and so on and so on. These damping mods are more in line with what angela gilbert yeung does. ric might or might not get the idea, as he and I have discussed this matter here. To say that this owner, and might I say, listener, thought he was hearing a newer, more modern version of his amplifier. Cleaned things up. I did not change any parts, except the feet. Everything matters. There are a few different kinds of attitudes here, with the most irritating being those that do not believe...., or can’t hear, or have an inferior set up / system, or never tried, just believe science. Those who have not tried, for an example, an upgraded power cable. $50. bucks on Amazon, please see the thread, "A Stupid Question About Power Cords". I reveal it there. It is under the Amps and Preamps category. To build a cable superior to this, it would cost me more than the $50. With a return if you can’t hear the difference, and get your ears professionally cleaned and your hearing checked. Enjoy ! MrD.

@arafiq

"So on one hand we have a designer/builder/entrepreneur who has been building and selling top quality products for a number of years. On the other hand, we have a  ..... tweaker, who modifies other people's original designs. Hmm... who is right? Tough choice man!"

Hmm... tell that to Dan Wright of "Modwright" and Bob Backert of "Backert Labs"!

riccitone,

What is your direct experience with the Nilai amp that makes you state what you did? Did you compare it directly to stock or modified Purifi, high powered Purifi, NCX500, Orchard, LSA, Peachtree, ICE and Pascal?  I did mods to a Nilai but when I did the mods (pictures of modded Nilai on my site) my system was not working so I could not A/B with my modded Purifi to find out how good it is relatively.  I know what the mods do....I have done the same mods to many amps and the results are always a better sound.