Do I really Need a Digital to Digital Converter?

Do I really need another piece of gear and another set of cables to clutter up my rack?

If you’re interested in better sound, unfortunately yes you do.  I have the same DAC and when I bought a used Iris (you could also get the Musician Pisces that’s very similar and cheaper) to take advantage of the Pegasus’ i2S connection the sound quality improved significantly — I would’ve had to pay a lot more for a new DAC than the cost of the DDC to get the level of improvement I got.  And that was just using this $6 HDMI cable from Monoprice (I got the 6” version as the shorter the better for i2S and under a foot is recommended)…

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13578

So my questions are, if what these DDCs do so important, why aren’t they built into into DACs or Streamers in the first place. Are they only incorporated in higher end digital gear but not gear at the level I am using?

Bingo.  Hope this helps.

Not really.

At most, a USB isolator may help in some situations when galvanic isolation isn’t built into the DAC, but what I’ve seen is that you may make things sound different by exchanging one set of jitter for another. That is, you can see the jitter signature change, but rarely is it "better."

DACs made in the last 10 years have fabulous jitter elimination built in and USB asynchronous is usually the best. Also, old DACs performed remarkably better with high frequency signals than they do now. That was another reason to consider an extra external devce, like a sample rate converter like the Wireworld Remedy. Works wonders on old DACs but not really helpful anymore.

The only real use I can imagine with a modern DAC is if your DAC lacks asynchronous USB or streaming. Another possible benefit would be galvanic isolation which, ODDLY, not all DACs have built-in, like these:

https://amzn.to/46ZhIKO

USB isolation can be really helpful when streaming directly from a PC.

I think that you can only benefit if the company making it does it better than the company making your DAC/Streamer.  

So in your case, I'd say no.

All they really do is expand input capabilities to your DAC from a USB. Other inputs might sound better (or worse.)

Might not.

I had an Ares II fed by an Iris and when I added the Iris, there was a noticeable improvement .

*note - my Ares II didn’t even have I2S and it was still and improvement.

Also, when using my 30 year old California Audio Labs Sigma II tube dac, the Iris helped it in a few ways.  (1) It stopped the relay from triggering when skipping tracks while I’m streaming and (2) more importantly , it just brought more clarity and detail in the sound.  

All that said, I sold both the Ares II and the Iris and now I’m just running coax Spdif into a Border Patrol dac from my streamer and I’m happy as a clam.

@j_andrews

... would you share which streamer it is, and if you stream high res audio >44,1 / 48 kHz? 
Cheers!

@medon78 

It's just an Ifi Zen Stream ...fed ethernet by an Uptone EtherRegen via a Triode Wire Labs "freedom" ethernet cable.

The Ifi Zen is powered by a 12V LHY linear supply.

Output from Ifi Zen is Triode Wire Labs coaxial Spdif into the BP Se-i dac.

Streaming Qobuz via the "JPLAY" universal app.

I've limited the resolution within Qobuz and JPLAY to top out at 24/96 since that is what the BP dac can handle.

When I use the old CAL Sigma dac, I have to limit it to 16/44.1

There are two Isolators who make a big difference: Intona on USB with short (!) Intona cables on the link to the DAC and Pink Faun on the Ethernet cable from the router. There is a further way of improving the USB connection by adding a reclocker, e.g. InnuOS Phoenix or Mutec. The digital to digital converters are actually decoupling clocking between server and DAC compared to async USB, so assuming your DAC has a decent clock, that is really not advisable.

So opinions seem to vary and with no real consensus it probably means I should consider getting a used DDC and if it doesn't improve things in a worthwhile way, I can always resell it at minimal to no loss. From my understanding both my streamer and DAC implement USB in a very favourable way and this is how I do connect them. I have tried other DAC inputs (AES and Coax) but have preferred the USB route. I mostly stream Tidal but also play music from an internal drive in the Auralic G2 where I have some files of higher than CD resolution.

There is never a consensus lol that's the fun of audio. You have an excellent streaming/digital setup you can enjoy the great sound you're getting now or tinker. Either way have fun and report back your findings!

So opinions seem to vary and with no real consensus it probably means I should consider getting a used DDC and if it doesn't improve things in a worthwhile way, I can always resell it at minimal to no loss.

That was exactly my plan, but after hearing my Pegasus with the i2S connection there was no way the Iris was going anywhere.  Lots of diverse opinions here, but I’m the only one actually using the same DAC as you so perhaps you might consider that for what it’s worth. 

Soix has a good point, same dac, maybe same result. The search begins

I have a high resolution room+speakers+amps. I use the Denafrips Hermes DDC+Venus combo. I don’t miss the Hermes all that much if l pull it out. On the other hand, i definitely miss the BACCH processor if I pull it out!!

"Spend in the right places", a wise man once said.

Going back to the Audio Alchemy days, the answer was an absolute yes. As far as the latest and greatest things made today, maybe?

To use i2s, I placed a Matrix X-SPDIF 2 between my Innous Zenith MKII streamer and PS Audio DSD DAC.  Streaming over a Wireworld Platinum Starlight HDMI cable as opposed to a Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 USB cable, the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 provided a significant SQ improvement.  

Same. I got a DDC to connect my streamer to my DAC I2S. There was a noticeable improvement in sound quality. In the end, I got rid of it all. I couldn’t get past the idea that I shouldn’t need one more device in the chain along with its own LPS and digital cable to get decent SQ.

it’s all part of the journey though, It was a learning experience and I don’t regret it.

@rhg3 What did you have for a DAC and DDC, and what did you change to?  Just curious. 

Manufacturers love to "develop" components that aren't needed and don't do anything but make them more money. Objectively prove me wrong.

@mrskeptic 

No disagreement with your statement above but let’s not forget “beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder”

@j_andrews All that said, I sold both the Ares II and the Iris and now I’m just running coax Spdif into a Border Patrol dac from my streamer and I’m happy as a clam.

If you could explain a bit more about what you hear and enjoy from the BorderPatrol dac, could help others considering comparable dacs you’ve owned and resold.

I’ve not tried the Denefrips dacs you have, and currently own the BorderPatrol SE-I dac myself. It’s unlike any of my five prior dacs in how it presents music, in its own unique way.

I think depends on source and connection.  I source ethernet to dedicated mac mini  to DAC via USB.  Inserted Iris between mac mini via USB and now I2S to the DACs, Topping L90 and a Pontus II depending on music and mood.  The Iris made a difference to my ears, darker background, more detail, and bigger soundstage.  

I rolled it in and out over two weeks to be sure it wasn’t placebo effect, and concluded there is a worthwhile improvement in SQ. The Iris was “only” $500, adding to Pontus was more cost effective than going up to Venus or Terminator. 

Since your source is Auralic (wifi or ethernet) w linear power to the DAC (via coaxial or optical?) maybe not.  USB from the PC not as clean as coaxial or optical from a high end streaming source, so you may not hear much difference, if any. 

@trivema

I use the Auralic via ethernet but as the router is one floor up from my system I use a TP link powerline adapter to get my ethernet. This set up was left over from a Lumin streamer I was using before that did not do wifi. I connect my Auralic to my DAC via USB although I could use coax, optical or, AES. I agree any of these options are cleaner than USB from a computer.

Soix used a DDC with the same DAC as mine and such first hand experience makes his opinion valuable to me. However, I don’t know what streamer he was using and how much of a factor your streamer plays into what benefit you get from a DDC. Do some streamer incorporate circuitry such that the benefits of a DDC are less than with others? Probably so and that’s why even though the advice we give and get in in this forum community is great, sometimes you just got to take the plunge and buy and try.

Geez.... I miss the old days where brick and mortar dealers were common and would sometimes let you take gear to try out at home before you made a purchase.

@decooney

Ok, not sure if this is the right thread for it, but...

As others have mentioned, the BP is not a very detailed dac. It just isn’t....and yes, sometimes it’s a little soft. And I can totally see why some users move on from it as it probably leaves things on the table. However, in my system, to my ears, I often find myself connecting with music more and thinking about equipment less with it in the chain. I listen to all sorts of music , but have an affinity for real instruments recorded well and above-all, the compositions or song writing is what moves me more than audiophile perfection.

The BP dac, along with the rest of my modest system and my room as it’s configured, throws a realistic and just pleasing image. As I delve more into chamber music, I really appreciate the overall presentation as something that feels more natural to me.

The Ares II (with the updated firmware especially) was really nice. Obviously it’s not the last word in detail either ...but it just had a little sizzle that the BP didn’t ...and that might appeal to others.

I like trying different things and will probably level-up on my dac at some point in the future when funds allow.  Interested in trying some with really nice output stages in the future....Maybe the Bricasti M3 or Alstine digital pre. I don’t think I would sell the BP though.

hope that helps

JS

@ j_andrews

I appreciate what the BP DAC brings to the table and have heard that the Aries, although  musical, has that little sizzle. Perhaps if you tried an R2R DAC higher up the food chain you might find you get more detail but without the sizzle.

When I was looking at R2R DACs, I discounted the Aries for that reason and went with the Musician Pegasus while also considering the Denafrips Pontus as they both were described as being detailed but without the sizzle as you call it.

Soix used a DDC with the same DAC as mine and such first hand experience makes his opinion valuable to me. However, I don’t know what streamer he was using and how much of a factor your streamer plays into what benefit you get from a DDC. Do some streamer incorporate circuitry such that the benefits of a DDC are less than with others?

I’m using an iFi Zen Stream with their iPowerX power supply — not top line stuff fer sure but reputed to punch above its weight and to compete with more expensive streamers (their customer service is basically non existent however, which really sucks). Since I’m of the opinion everything matters there may be some streamers with design features that may make a DDC less impactful — I honestly don’t know but wouldn’t surprise me — but I’d think the more important factor is the DAC and how its inputs, clock, etc. are designed. That said, the favored input on the Pegasus is i2S and I certainly concur with that, but not many streamers to date offer an i2S output so that points in the direction of using a DDC. Hope this helps.

@j_andrews I don’t think I would sell the BP though, hope that helps.

Yes, Thanks, it does help. Reconfirms what I hear too, and a bit more - maybe. Also, totally related on a thread titled "Do I really Need a Digital to Digital Converter?"

In both of our cases, seems so, yes, we need and like having one, won’t give it up.

Btw, I get plenty of detail out of my Border Patrol SE-I dac, using a Cardas Clear S/PDIF digital coax cable, which feeds a capable 6SN7 dual triode preamplifier out to mono tube amps, all Cardas cable. One thing about the BP, gotta let it break-in though, weeks, not days. Some people really miss this part, and jump to conclusions comparing to sizzling dacs. They pass them on to others get good deals and pick them up and enjoy!

Mine sounds natural, no etch or grain, none, not unnecessarily detailed in any way, just there, full body. As you noted, pure music. Enjoying mine quite a bit now. 

As a result of the design, I can hear a little bit more upper midrange presence than my other R2R dacs in a more natural way. i.e. I can hear the reeds and fine grain tones on a saxophone that I don’t hear on some tracks, with my other dacs, for example. It’s pretty cool, mine is a keeper here too.

I think it takes a revealing system to truly appreciate what it can do. Works well in the right setup.

@soix 

From: ifi Zen stream > Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 > Wyred4Sound DAC-2v2SE

To: Hifi Rose 150b

I have an Audio GD DI20HE as my DDC. When I first heard it, there was so much more in my music.

Love it when I hear new details in a recording.

alvinnir2,

You do not "need" a DDC, but if your DAC will accept I2S (which yours does) it can greatly improve your sound quality. Just make sure to use a nice HDMI cable (I use an Audioquest Vodka 48 8/10k $400 or an inexpensive Supra cables 2.1 HDMI cable $79)

The Iris will optically and galvanically clean the signal from your streamer, and then reclock it with a higher quality clock. You then use I2S HDMI to output to your DAC. I have a Bluesound Node 130 into a Denafrips Iris DDC then I2S into a Denafrips Pontus II DAC....adding the Iris DDC and I2S was not a subtle upgrade, it was a very noticeable upgrade in SQ.

+1 @vthokie83 And please note his excellent Pontus II shares a lotta DNA with the Pegasus as they come from the same factory with many similar parts and design principles.  Not identical to be sure, but definitely highly related.

After upgrading my Terminator Plus to firmware v3.7 I felt I2S was no longer better than USB. 

Before the upgrade my findings were the same as @vthokie83 "adding the Iris DDC and I2S was not a subtle upgrade, it was a very noticeable upgrade in SQ."  

I found that the power cord, USB cable and HDMI cable each had a strong influence on the quality of the sound from the Iris.  Using the clock out from the TP was helpful but not as profound as the cable.

I also used to have a W4S Music server and 2v2SE DAC.  The USB was much better than the direct I2S connection (using W4S cables for each). 

Point is I2S is not universally better than HDMI.  

anzaanimalclinic,

I have often thought that at some point, the USB might be as good as I2S as I move through future upgrades. More expensive allows for higher quality throughout the chain. The Terminator Plus has an oven controlled (OCXO) crystal which is better yet than the temperature controlled (TCXO) crystal in the Iris....and the firmware update appears to improve the USB to a point where the DDC becomes redundant.

I look forward to that day, but until then I'll remain exceedingly happy with the Iris/Pontus combo

NO!

I have an MHDT Labs Orchid DAC in my main desktop system. For years I ran it off the digital coax signal from a SPDIF converter. A couple years ago I decided to try a DDC. Ended up buying the first generation Matrix Audio X-SPDIF converter. I installed it in the system in place of the SPDIF converter (using the same coax cable), and immediately heard small but worthwhile differences in soundstaging and the focus/palpability of notes. That's the only DDC I tried, and it's a keeper.

When the usb input stopped working on my dac and I learned that the amazon seller that I purchased from was in China and would not help me with a repair, I discovered goldensound's write-up on using a DDC. I had a Bryston DDC and hooked it up to my dac with a Requisite D3r coax cable. As a result, I am not going to get my usb input fixed. Everything sounds a bit better than before, especially on live recordings of classical music. Yet, I have used the Bryston DDC and the Eitr with several other dacs and found them to add a hooded and boring quality to recordings that was not present when listening through the usb input of the dac.

I am using a Denafrips Hermes 12th DDC. I needed a way to tie in a Lumin U2 Streamer and a Bluesound Node N130 w/Linear Power Supply going out Coax to my Gan 1 amp. I use USB from the U2 and Coax from the N130. The upgrade in sound quality from the N130 is very big. This was a very good upgrade for my system. Make sure to try different power cords on the DDC.