Help me understand John Coltrane .... seriously.

I’m still not a big fan of Bitches Brew,  but at the same time I get why historically it is such a famous landmark recording.  

Erik,

Might help to mention what jazz you DO like.

For a Trane newbie, I'd suggest Ascension.
I'm joking.
I'd try these in order:

Lush Life (Prestige)
Coltrane Plays The Blues (Atlantic)
My Favorite Things (Atlantic)
Bags And Trane (Atlantic)

"My Favorite Things" is an obvious influence on rock musicians, you can hear it in his solos on that track.

I've been exactly where you are.  Don't force it, let the music come to you.  

On the flipside, JC,  was never afraid to stretch out. This aspect of his genius can present a complexity in appreciation. Agreed, allow the music to come to you.

Happy Listening!

I suggest you try some Cecil Taylor.  Conquistador! is excellent.  Coltrane will suddenly seem very mainstream and accessible.

Jazz is a continuum in terms of styles and flavors and can be appreciated in different ways through our own collective experiences.  Everyone’s path is different.  I grew up hearing classical music and big band jazz, but didn’t really embrace it until later in life (now more so than my own parents).  It’s almost a cliche to say that my jazz collection officially started with Miles Davis’ “Kind of Blue”, but that is the case.  I started building my collection around those players:  Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Cannonball Adderley (and Miles’ next great quintet:  Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams, Ron Carter).  I didn’t appreciate fusion until much later.  I think Coltrane up through “Kind of Blue” is very accessible followed by works with his first quartet (Elvin Jones, Jimmy Garrison, McCoy Tyner) - particularly during his Atlantic years.  With the Impulse years you start to see him push the boundaries - post quartet can be a challenge for most and probably something you have to be in the mood for (just like anything).  Like with most music you have to work up to it and give it some time assuming you have some level of passion for the genre.  Some days I crave more melody in my cereal and other days more dissonance.  Enjoy the journey!

+1 gormdane!
My experience exactly

gormdane

Nice post- precisely. (2) distinct periods for JC- the drug addiction years and post addiction years.  Brilliance,  during both periods no question about it.

Happy Listening!

If you are serious about this, listen to some of his interviews on youtube. It helps to understand his intentions and goals. Also, there is a good book of his interviews, "Coltrane on Coltrane". 

Maybe start with something easy: Ballads, W/ Johnny Hartman, Coltrane & Ellington. Blue Train, Prestige recordings w/ Red Garland, Elmo Hope, Mal Waldron, etc. I have a hard time understanding why some people don't understand John Coltrane. I started buying his records when I was 18, loved them so much that for a couple months 25% of my net pay went to buying Trane LPs. It could be that if someone hasn't "gotten" Coltrane by a certain age, that's just something that's not going to happen. It's music that's understood on an automatic, intuitive level, not something that's an intellectual exercise, such as calculus. If your tastes run to Steely Dan, Eagles, F. Mac's Rumours, the odds aren't too great that Coltrane's your bag. That's just how it is, straight, no chaser.

I would also avoid starting with a Love Supreme.  I would suggest the stuff with Miles Davis (Kinda Blue), Johnny Hartman and one of my favorite tunes, Equinox which is based on the blues progression.
I think people feel they have to like certain artists to truly be fans of Jazz but you really don’t. Don’t force it, like what you like.  Like a friend of mine said, Coltrane is not casual listening.

Yes, Equinox is nice. I tried recalling that songs the other day to suggest, but kept drawing a blank trying to remember it. His collaboration with Johnny Hartman is my least favorite Coltrane album, so you're excused from listening to it Erik..You still haven't mentioned what if any jazz you do like or prefer. If you do enjoy the Eagles, you might as well shoot your turntable, and get it over with. Love,

Mike

I"m totally with the people who say start with early Coltrane.  I say start with Kind of Blue (Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Cannonball Adderley, and more), which is *the* most famous jazz album of all time for good reason.  If you've not heard it before, you're losing out.  The John Coltrane/Johnny Hartman is a good second album. Then move onto Blue Train and then Giant Steps after that.  You should be totally hooked on Coltrane by then.  Coltrane is sublime, just pure sublime.

There is a huge difference between early Coltrane and later Coltrane.  Early Coltrane is pretty easy to grasp.  Later Coltrane goes way outside and is not everyone's cup of tea, including me.  I disagree with those who say start with A Love Supreme, it's too outside for most newbie jazz listeners.  Later Coltrane IS another language and it takes some advanced jazz language skills to grasp it.

If you develop a taste for Cannonball Adderley after listening to Kind of Blue, I recommend the Cannonball album, Somethin' Else.

To keep it simple, Coltrane on Atlantic is easier on the ears than the later material on ABC/Dunhill/MCA. In music theory classes way back when, the tune Spiral off of Giant Steps was offered an an example of defining a physical shape/attribute with sound. If you like that, the rest of the album should interest you, followed by the My Favorite Things album.

One must appreciate the history of half century old jazz to get these artists.  From the same time period, I simply don't get doo-wop, country and western, old rock and roll, or any smooth jazz that arose from this AM car radio era.
My boy did learn to like Coltrane and Miles, despite his phishheadenness, but don't wory about it, especially on streaming devices.  The selection that gets streamed is based on algorhythyms that pander to what is listened to by the most idiots.Additionally, my appreciation of these old jazz artists is that they make great, low level, party background music, if you like old Broadway show tunes, plus of course their importance in the history of jazz for white people. 

Coltrane is very challenging, and though I have always liked him - especially his 1961 Village Vanguard performances - I never understood him. This Vox Explainer actually does a terrific job of breaking down what Coltrane is doing and why:

https://youtu.be/62tIvfP9A2w

Believe it or not, what helped me getting started with jazz of his style after many listenings without enjoyment is I got high once and went on a concert in Velvet lounge in Chicago. From then on, loved it.
 

What is it you are trying to understand?

Ask yourself what is it you understand about another genre?

Dont try and understand Jazz.

Your sort of non connection to Coltrane just means its outside of your taste for listening.

How many Yanni or Nana Maskouri albums do.you own?

So what if you dont dig Coltrane.

Move on.

Erik, I have trouble with free-form jazz too. I just can’t quite get most of it. I’m more an Oscar Peterson kind of guy. That being said, I will play Coltrane, Davis, et al, in the car, or as background music. This allows my brain to absorb this music without focused concentration. After a few long sessions, I’m ready for more serious listening. After this, if I still don’t get it, I probably never will.

Erik, 

I love jazz and I don’t love Coltrane. I respect him and like some of his work. Overall, I find his lead lines stabbing, terse and not very melodic. He often sounds like he’s racing through scales and modes. I’m with you. 
When I was first exploring jazz 25 years ago I listened to him because he’s in the cannon of popular jazz. Today, I’m down to owning just two of his albums and I rarely play them. 

I recommend picking up a copy of Ted Gioia's book, "How to Listen to Jazz." I've been a jazz fan for decades, but I still found this book helpful and enlightening.

It's not dense, very readable. As you can tell from the title, it's written for the everyman and it not technical.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Listen-Jazz-Ted-Gioia/dp/0465093493/

Hey I don't get Rap "music", it doesn't bother me in the least.  If you do not like bop or post bop jazz, so what?   It does not make any sense to some people. Others can recognize the structure in the improvising.  They play the notes in the chords around the melody. It is like algebra instead of arithmetic.  Oh they know ALL the rules, and know how to break them. It is not totally random the notes they play. 

Help me understand ART .... seriously.

That is what you are really asking because real jazz is art. And as with any art form it is ok if you don't get all of it or appreciate all of it, as long as you try. Just move on to another artist and come back to it latter. The more you listen to jazz the more you will find yourself gong back and appreciating pieces you previously passed on.

But of all the jazz artists, I'd have to admit that JC is one of the more difficult to "get" and best left for serious listening after one has a better understanding of jazz.

I second other posts about listening to the Miles' albums first; also "Ballads."

Maybe even better would be "Duke Ellington and John Coltrane," the 1962 recording in which each of these great musicians gracefully gave up ground to meet the other in the middle. It might have been easier for Ellington, as he was a gifted accompaniest, able to comp virtually any other style of player. But Coltrane made his real gift apparent in the slower tunes, especially Strayhorn's "My Little Brown Book."

It's true that Coltrane developed a different language on his horn. But that's the norm in jazz...Parker, Gillespie, Armstrong, and any number of others had done the same thing in their time. To really hear what they're doing, listen to slow tunes; it's much easier there.

Coltrane as an artist exhibited more change over time than did most other artists (with the possible exception of Sun Ra).  Certainly much more than Miles.  A lot of people point to Miles as someone who constantly evolved, but his progression was always rooted in what was popular at the time.  Coltrane went beyond that.  Way beyond that.   From straight ahead player with Miles (and Monk), then his first baby steps as a leader, to coming into his own with his classic quartet, to his final sheets of sound/Free Jazz sound.   All different, but all from the same player.  

For someone looking to explore Coltrane, I would start with his work as a member of Miles's 1st classic group- all on Prestige.  Then to Blue Trane.  Then to his collaborations with Johnny Hartman and Duke Elllington.  This will take you from a player rooted in classic hard bop through his initial explorations in expanding standards.  Then take a deep breath if you want to go any further (and for some the above is enough). 

My Favorite Things shows the first manifest example of the direction Coltrane would take.  I consider the title track to be one of the first psychedelic jams, a harbinger of what was to come later in the decade.  His solo is like whirling dervish; in, around, ahead and behind the melody all at the same time.  Try listening through headphones, late at night-  this will probably be a vastly different experience than listening through speakers.   

If you want to continue, then jump into  A Love Supreme.  Know that this album was so influential that inspired the creation of a church congregation in San Francisco.   I'll admit I did not get this track for a long time, until I watched the Spike Lee movie 'Mo Better Blues".  This track plays over a climactic scene of a marriage taking place in twilight, on a Brooklyn rooftop, with lower Manhattan in the background.   The scene is beautifully filmed, with a late in the day technicolor feel to the film.  A Love Supreme is in perfect synchronization with the solemnity of the wedding ceremony, then the obvious joy of the celebrants.

If you are still interested enough to continue, then go for his free jazz titles that continued to push the boundaries of what was possible.

erik_squires here is an article aimed at the Coltrane-curious, like you with accompanying Spotify playlists: https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/nemw88/john-coltrane-guide-essay-streaming.

As someone who loves everything about music but really is not educated in music in any way, Coltrane respect did not come until after years of exploring jazz. I started with Kenny Burrell and bought everything I could where he was sitting in. I could understand Kenny immediately it was several years before my untrained ear and my scrambled brain was able to hear the musical picture Coltrane was creating. The Coltrane documentary also helped me understand a little bit of what was going on with him as he was creating it. After 10 years of jazz exploration, Coleman Hawkins and Kenny Burrell are my go to’s over Miles Davis and Coltrane, although I understand the credit these gentlemen have and deserve. Just as Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd pushed the bounds of rock, I rarely put them on for everyday listening. 

Coltrane typically modulates key changes differently than other Jazz players (major thirds). His progressions are often called “Coltrane changes”. Search for an explanation of “Coltrane changes” on YouTube and watch a video or two. After that, you’ll have a better idea of what’s going on in his music. With that understanding under your belt, the music should (hopefully) sound more accessible

Good luck

to enjoy Ciltrane and many others you have to be in the moment, don't analyze, don't expect,don't anticipate,  just give in to the incredible soaring haromnICS of a true virtuoso

Eric,

Are there other jazz saxophonists that you like?   Maybe start with some folks that are within the genre of jazz that you enjoy and maybe down the road, you will like Coltrane more?  Maybe try Sonny Rollins?  Saxophone Colossus, Way Out West, The Sound of Sonny.  I'm a jazz musician and I love Coltrane but find his later output to be very difficult and I have to be in just the right mood.  

I believe that jazz is a language.  The more you are immersed the more you understand.  It's like going to a foreign country where you don't speak the language.  At first everything is noise and nonsense but then you start to hear a word or two that you understand and things eventually start to make sense.  I think it's well worth the effort but, music is about enjoyment and if you don't like something, you shouldn't force yourself just because people told you you should

Erik, to understand many jazz musicians you have to start at their beginning and follow them through time as they evolve. The great ones keep searching and exploring and in many instances leave us behind. Later in his career Trane became influenced by eastern music which is abrasive to most of us westerners. I gave up after he left McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones behind. Wayne Shorter progressed in a way I can still follow and enjoy. Most of us want to enjoy music, not be challenged by it.
Henry Threadgill is an original. He bounces back and forth between incredible songs that really bring out a smile and music that leaves me totally flat. I have to have some sense of melody and or structure/rhythm to hold on to to keep me focused without either I am lost.
I have tried to listen to Coltrane's Ascension three or four times and I just do not get it. But, when you listen to him in his earlier days it was obvious that he was special. Listen to Sonny Rollin's Tenor Madness. Trane plays on that album. Compare the two. Rollin's is no slouch but you always know when you are listening to Trane he has a lyrical and rhythmical facility with the instrument that Rollins just can not match. Rollin's playing seems sort of clumsy in comparison.  

Well ,Its funny ,because  like everyone has said here there are many aspects  to jazz.Its not all the same so times you have to just listen,and take it in ,lol.I was like 19 and working in the old PO on the midnight  tour.I was into Rock, Beatles,Stones,Cream.and am rock ,lol.Well this PO was,in LIC ,the APO -NPO ,LIT .at night the guy who controlled the radio would only play JAZZ ,it drove me crazy.New Wave Jazz ,Free Form.I went up to the cage as we called it and asked the guy to change the station, his answer was NO.So I had to listen to it all night long and the place was empty  and it was loud.lol.After awhile ,I did learn to like it ....just listening, and it grew on me...But some of it did SUCK,lol....that was 48 years ago.....I like all kinds of music and give everything a chance....

I just wanted to say thanks so much to everyone who has lent an ear and suggested a good path to follow.

Despite what some may think, not all my posts are trolls. I am not contributing or replying to this right now because life has intervened and I'm not able to take up all the great suggestions here, but it looks like there's so much great material in this thread even if I can't take advantage of it just yet others will.

Thanks again!

Erik

Trane is an acquired taste. Don’t listen to him because others tell you he’s a genius. His later albums reflected the great physical pain he was in from his cancer. Very hard to listen to.

Have you listened to much jazz? There are so many great players to listen to before you’re ready for Trane. Here are some recommendations for jazz to listen to if you’re not a jazz player yourself and are just beginning to listen.

Anything by Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. Check out this track from the late 70’s. The people who have played with the Messengers is a Who’s Who of modern jazz.
Early (before 1956) Miles Davis - "Miles and Horns"
Dexter Gordon
Phil Woods
Lester Young
Sonny Rollins
Charlie Parker
Sonny Stitt
Scott Hamilton
Woody Shaw

After you’ve listened to at least 3 full albums of each of these guys, THEN go back and listen to Trane playing Giant Steps and see if that makes better sense to you.

Tenor Madness

So many comments about Coltrane "not being an easy listen" or "taking time to digest", or something in that direction. It seems that many like to work hard.

I enjoy Kind Of Blue, not too often, own A Love Supreme (I tried, at least), and tried to convince myself there is something to other Miles Davis’ albums and that A Love Supreme is really great. Eventually, I admitted to myself I am a peasant who likes some other things more.

One of them being Tenor Madness by Sonny Rollins mentioned in the post above.

skyscraper,

Now when you mentioned it, have you ever bought Let It Bleed SACD? It was a topic from many months ago.

erik_squires,

Have you ever figured Frank Sinatra out? That one is a mystery to me on the level of John Coltrane to you.

@glupson

I think you can slide into Sinatra via Mel Torme and Tony Bennet. :)

I think you can slide into Sinatra via Mel Torme and Tony Bennet. :)

Also, don't make this weird.

erik_squires,

"Also, don't make this weird."

No worries, I took your advice literally.

Another vote for "My Favorite Things" and "Naima". 

Hi Eric,
Maybe it’s not about getting Coltrane but you simply don’t like trumpet sound.
This is the case with me. I love piano or acoustic guitar a lot more than trumpet.
I could listen to Bill Evans, Stan Gets or Joao Jilberto all the time but only once in a while listen to Miles or Coltrane.
Emil

Let me correct myself.
maybe you don’t like saxophone in case of Coltrane.
Emil

I went to see Tool this week. In the row in front of me was a guy who wanted to head-bang...he had his hair long on top with the sides shaved. Tool started playing...but the complex time signature was too much for this gentleman to get his rhythm. He didn’t “get” it. He was a 4/4 kind of guy. Tool is a 5/4,6/4 kind of band. But the guy thoroughly enjoyed it!

To me, jazz can often be just like that...the musicians...often heavily influenced by “enhancers”...came up with really cutting edge, avant-garde stuff that either “scratches an itch” you didn’t know you had, or you listen and go “what the...?”.

At a minimum, listen to “ Giant Steps” after watching some videos on Coltrane and the Circle of Fifths. You may or may not care for it, but the genius and complexity behind it is really intriguing.

I find that sometimes I really “get into” stuff as my brain starts to understand it. I’ve been on a hard-bop kick lately spinning Pepper Adams and Nick Brignola on bari Sax.

I’m sure others will have more recommendations. I’d say listen to a bunch...if it clicks for you - awesome! If not - don’t force it and move along...there’s plenty of good stuff out there.

https://youtu.be/2kotK9FNEYU

maybe you don’t like saxophone in case of Coltrane.

Love sax.

Then it’s obviously his style of playing.
It’s totally fine to respect a great musician and not like him.

As others have said, for easy listening get Ballads or his corroboration with Hartman and/or Ellington. But if you're really serious try a late night listening session with my personal favorite, Crescent. If you don't get it after that, you never will.

Totally loving the Kenny G stuff here!

As to Coltrane, well, so you don’t like it - move on. I love Interstellar Space but, then again I’m totally into Lustmord, Zoviet France, Paul Panhuysen, Stockhausen, Sun Ra, Whitehouse, John Zorn, Napalm Death... He totally makes sense within a spiritualist, atonal, alternate scale, meditative, Soul centered universe. Music is the mirror of consciousness - its vast, so you'll find some you like somewhere.

My favorite was when my Dad bought the Village Vanguard sessions. He was a 50’s jazz guy (Brubeck, Erroll Garner, MJQ)...lasted one minute before he gifted it to me. Ha!

Herbie Hancock (Water Mellon Man), Vincent Ingalis  (NastY) Daft Punk (4Ware) will get you started in the right direction.

As to Coltrane, well, so you don’t like it - move on.

Kind of my choice whether or not to move on or not, don't you think?