I have near completed upgrading my system, but have left my speaker wire the same. My system is as follows- Laptop (Tidal) > Schiit Gumby Multibit > Freya S > Vidar monoblocks > speakers. My usb cable is Supra usb, and I am using xlr connections with amazon basics cables. If I am not mistaken, xlr is already super good at being noise resistance so I shouldn't need to spend more $ on fancy cables at my current level of audio equipment. My speaker wire is traditional 12 gauge wire I spliced from the spool. Nothing fancy. The reason I feel I shouldn't spend money on better speaker wire is because I traded the Supra usb for a super cheap usb and could not hear a difference. On top of that, I used to use single-ended connections using Chord C-line cables, and I could not tell the difference between those and cheap ones. What is everyone else's consensus? Can you guys hear a difference in your system? Thanks for the help.
What surprises me most is how many reviewers do not have true balanced systems, but their personal kit have XLR I/Os. Their editor sends them true balanced kit to review (WTF?) then they ignorantly say they heard no difference!
I agree and am always amazed when the review rig is not aligned with the component being reviewed yet the reviewer runs through the review and then makes some justification at the end. Thankfully this doesn’t happen often but once is too often. If I were the manufacturer, I would not be pleased.
Often, manufacturers will provide XLR I/Os FOR CONVENIENCE, THOUGH THEIR KIT IS NOT TRUE BALANCED. Unless your components have true balanced circuits then XLR won’t make a difference.
What surprises me most is how many reviewers do not have true balanced systems, but their personal kit have XLR I/Os. Their editor sends them true balanced kit to review (WTF?) then they ignorantly say they heard no difference! Well, DUH! I used to rag to the editors about this, but it always fell on deaf ears
Underwood HiFi has some reasonably priced speaker cables, said to be of high quality
I have near completed upgrading my system, but have left my speaker wire the same. My system is as follows- Laptop (Tidal) > Schiit Gumby Multibit > Freya S > Vidar monoblocks > speakers. My usb cable is Supra usb, and I am using xlr connections with amazon basics cables. If I am not mistaken, xlr is already super good at being noise resistance so I shouldn’t need to spend more $ on fancy cables at my current level of audio equipment.
XLR is good.
My speaker wire is traditional 12 gauge wire I spliced from the spool. Nothing fancy. The reason I feel I shouldn’t spend money on better speaker wire is because I traded the Supra usb for a super cheap usb and could not hear a difference. On top of that, I used to use single-ended connections using Chord C-line cables, and I could not tell the difference between those and cheap ones.
If your speakers have bi-wire connections, then you could throw some 4 core Magomi 13 gauge between the monoblocks and the speakers.
(It is ~$5/meter I think and high quality stuff with good specs.)
Or another set of the traditional stuff you used, in a bi-wire to the tweeters/MR.
What is everyone else’s consensus?
Save your money.
Can you guys hear a difference in your system? Thanks for the help.
Not usually.
Sometimes in my mind I want to though.
Strom11…upgrading cables will make a difference. The delta will be based on how resolving your system is, as previously noted.
Generally, the more resolving the more the delta.
having monoblocks is an advantage when considering speaker cable upgrades. You have the great option to place the amps very close to the speakers and run short speaker cables. (1m or less). This does two things - limits opportunity for signal degradation and is cheaper than buying longer cables! But will need longer XLRs - but with noise cancellation working in your favour.
I hear a difference, but I am sure there are people who don’t. You can argue the technicalities all day long, it boils down whether it’s worth your while.
Best is to get cables from a retailer that allows you to audition cables and return them if you don’t like them.
@jji666I don't know anything about your system or you overall experience all things audiophile, so I'll just reply by referencing my own experience. I too have considered the "your system is not resolving enough" comments to be a potential rationalization for people that are operating in the placebo range. I've had a few upgrades that I believed that I could hear a difference with, but also recognized that outside of a direct comparison I'd never be able to consistently detect if the upgrade was in or out of the system. In these cases I feel that there's an element of placebo in play.
I have a few of standards for determining when one things truly sounds better than another. First, when a change in equipment leads me to compulsively listen to all of my favorites again because everything sounds new and different. Second, when I can point to multiple specific things that sound different to me. Third, when the lesser setup bugs me. An example of the third one was comparing my Pathos Classic One to my Krell S-300i. They were very close for me and I struggled to determine a favorite. Then I rolled in some Mullard tubes in the Pathos and after that listening to the Krell was never satisfying outside of being a power amplifier in my home theater setup where I do like the way it sounds.
I had not messed with cables until the last couple of months because I didn't consider that a cable could make a significant improvement (at least in my system). The Mullard tubes elevated my system to a point that I became curious about what might be possible. Adding some very budget W Audio power cords made another significant change in the sound and I considered it to be an improvement. I also felt that I was at a point where interconnects were worth exploring so I picked up some Audioquest Chicago cables and once again was pleasantly surprised. I'm now considering trying an Audioquest Cinnamon digital coax cable even though I'm more of a 1's and 0's type of guy on the digital side of things.
The question that I'll probably not take the time to answer is if the cables really would have made a significant difference to my ear prior to the Mullard tubes. The difference they made was truly significant.
I do believe that as a system becomes more resolving it is possible to hear things that less resolving systems simply cannot benefit from. The cables that I've upgraded to are still considered budget cables, but I don't plan to go down the infinite rabbit hole of better and better cables. I think that if they were good enough to make a clear improvement that I've significantly narrowed the gap for what is possible in my system and spending significantly more would have a much lower ROI.
I always love the "your system is not resolving enough" commentary. Frankly, any reasonably eared person should be able to detect differences on almost any system, resolving or not, IF there is a difference. It's the delta you should be able to detect, regardless of the quality of the starting point. The "resolving" comment to me is a defensive rationalization.
My usual response that statement is "or maybe your brain is not objective enough..."
I do not mean to attack those who responded in good faith, but I do want to point out to those who regularly post such statements that really they're putting themselves, and their fancy dandy systems, above other people. It's a bit condescending.
I would accept a measurement delta of the amp with the standard and magic power cord.
And also with interconnects.
Speaker cables carry more current, so maybe the is some magnetic field thing possible where the elevators move it away from a floor. But even then it would be much easier to believe something is happening in a measurement, than in a magic show.
if it is so profound, it should be easy to show it.
I always love the "your system is not resolving enough" commentary. Frankly, any reasonably eared person should be able to detect differences on almost any system, resolving or not, IF there is a difference. It's the delta you should be able to detect, regardless of the quality of the starting point. The "resolving" comment to me is a defensive rationalization.
My usual response that statement is "or maybe your brain is not objective enough..."
I do not mean to attack those who responded in good faith, but I do want to point out to those who regularly post such statements that really they're putting themselves, and their fancy dandy systems, above other people. It's a bit condescending.
Someone mentioned above, Canare 411S star quad wire. I have found that this is the best low price cable for the money! Buy the cable in bulk and buy good quality spades if they fit your system, or buy banana if you need too.
The best high end speaker cable/interconnects for money is Analysis Plus.
I have been doing this for a long time and have a very good resolving system.
All I know for sure is that the specs which are rated in terms of “per foot” or “per meter”, seem to favour using monoblocks close to the speaker. So close that the speaker cables never get to the floor, always seems to work for me.
The only point in time where electrical energy does NOT flow is at that point in time when the voltage passes from the +ve cycle to the -ve cycle - the rest of the time there is energy transfer
I think that the input voltage needs to higher than the rail voltage (and maybe a diode drop of two extra…
So it is like 10 degrees either side of the zero crossing where that voltage is not enough to flow into the power supply.
About 11-12% of the time the mains voltage is too low to pulse any current into the power supply (Assuming that the rail is at ~28V).
The only point in time where electrical energy does NOT flow is at that point in time when the voltage passes from the +ve cycle to the -ve cycle - the rest of the time there is energy transfer
If it all happened in the blink of an eye, then how is it the tube monoblocks ran for many seconds (!10 Seconds) when the power switch was shut off?
My guess would be that tube monoblocks "store" a LOT of energy in the form of
electrical energy in the large transformers and capacitors used in tube designs
residual heat energy in the heaters of the tubes allowing sound to be heard even after the power was turned off
The resistance of copper and silver is pretty close to zero, and the speed of the electric field is pretty fast.
It’s not about resistance - it’s all about Valence electrons and the speed at which the valence electrons in a metal react in order to transfer electrical energy
Valence electrons in Silver move much more freely than they do in copper - this is conductivity
It take far less energy to make the valence electrons move between atoms and therefore the dynamic performance of silver wire is faster than copper.
then how does 3 feet of silver result in anything more dynamic happening?
As I said in a previous post - at each "connection point" (i.e. a plug) the only electrical attribute present is Voltage.so the energy that "flows" through an attached cable is dependent on the properties of the cable that the energy is about to flow through
conductivity of the metal (e,g, silver) used in the conductors allows the valence electrons to react more quickly resulting in a cable that is able to provide better dynamic perofrmance.
If the power cord is doing some other stuff like filtering noise, then I could understand that as a goal.
A good power cable
does NOT interfere with (or filter) the transfer of the electrical energy,
it also does not introduce noise into that cables by using
a geometry that mitigates the creation of induced noise between conductors
an insulation that that has a low dielectric constant
which reduces the amount of noise created in the cables due to the charging and recharging of the insulation surrounding each condcutor.
Here are three sites that may explain things better.
Now you understand why different construction techniques are really important.
From the receptacle back is one issue. From the plug on is another. I use conditioners/regulators/maintainers. Nothing fancy BUT, the reaction time to spikes and low voltage is VERY quick. That is what I use it for.
PC Power Cables (not CORDS) are the first AC cabling you have a say so over. Before that you have to meet code.
IF a 1000 dollar component needed a 3000.00 PC to sound good it's not because of the cable, it's because of a crap power supply design. It's just that simple.
OCC is a process. I'm sure there are degrees of the OCC process that change the outcome of the product. It has nothing to do with the coppers signature as much as what is or is NOT around the conductor. LIKE other conductors and the effect of or lack of effect from the dielectric, and protective armor.
In my setup, cabling can account for a 2% change in the signature. It's so slight now, I have to really pay attention.
Heavy copper and bass go together. It needs to be good heavy copper with excellent armor.
Direct coupled. OFC, or OCC or super duper OCC, or whatever you dig up, I can't hear the difference to save my life. You know why? Because BASS likes BIG, FAT copper cabling. Period. Put all the lipstick you want on that pig it's still just a pig.
BTW the ears are holding up just fine, too. I still check against my little reference system. MX110z, and MC225. What kind of cabling do you think it uses, and have for 20+ years? Solid core # 14 romex copper (stripped the outer armor) a black and a red wire twisted and put in 1/2" silicone tube. 5.00 dollars US total.. LOL
You can put any cable you want there it will not sound better than that. It may sound different but not better. I have some 75 year old multistrand pure silver PTFE US army/air corp surplus cabling, it took 10 year to break that in, I thought it was junk then I noticed something. 1000 hours.. I gave up on that cabling 10 time at least..
Shielding, is a cable SQ killer. I use as little as possible. I'm a pretty analog guy whenever possible.. :-)
I like weaves, ribbons, and the helix designs as well. I've yet to hear better, I'm at a whoppin' 50-150.00 per cable pair 3 meters or under. Cotton and silk air tubes are nice too.. I don't solder stuff if I can help. Cold weld, copper or clad screws.. no solder. Maybe a very light tinning, maybe! Its lead, and tin and 4% silver, it's crap.
Mechanically join and secure wire and bind it with a solder lock.
I went from a 200.00 usd Cat 5 cable to 22.00 Cat 8 and was blown away.. :-)
I understand the speaker’s voltage and current draw relationship.
And also the amplifier trying to get to a specific output voltage in a closed loop feedback fashion.
So it is just the power supply and power cord relationship that has me slowed up.
But, bear in mind that all of this is all happening at lightening fast speeds, so even in the best mono-blocks - good power cables will improve their performance.
About 11-12% of the time the mains voltage is too low to pulse any current into the power supply (Assuming that the rail is at ~28V).
Or the 60 Hz, being rectified, is operating at 120 Hz, or ~8 msec peak to peak. And the time that the voltage is too low to flow into the power supply is about 1msec.
If it all happened in the blink of an eye, then how is it the tube monoblocks ran for many seconds (!10 Seconds) when the power switch was shut off?
Additionally if the power cord had, say a bit ferrite bead on it for RF suppression, then that would limit the bandwidth down. And limit the “blink of an eye” speed down as well. And other noise filtering would also slow the bandwidth of the incoming current down. (Which probably is really only needing to be at 120 Hz, or some power supply feedback circuit that has a bandwidth of maybe 20 kHz or less?)
So, when selecting power cables for any component I look for those that use UP-OCC copper, because it will provide excellent dynamic response. Silver is better, but a lot more expensive.
How does the silver result in any the electrons getting into the power supply any faster?
The resistance of copper and silver is pretty close to zero, and the speed of the electric field is pretty fast.
So it seems like the dynamics would be primarily governed by the power supply.
It seems like the city and house wires, and power cord, are only bringing the goods to the power supply?
Or… if the cord from the wall outlet to the amp input were made shorter and shorter, then the power cord effectively goes away?
If I have 100’ from the pole to the house, and 100’ from the box to the outlet, then how does 3 feet of silver result in anything more dynamic happening?
If the power cord is doing some other stuff like filtering noise, then I could understand that as a goal.
@holmz - lets start be looking at the process at different points in the audio system
At the speaker
the power required to satisfy the volume level selected has two components - voltage, and the current drawn, which is a product of the speaker impedance
The amplifier circuit
so the amp circuit attempts to build a voltage signal that will operate the speaker at the required volume and the speaker places a current draw on circuit which must be satisfied (ultimately) by the power supply
if there is enough energy reserves in the power supply, the signal is created as it should be, with the required voltage and current to move the speaker cone to its required displacement
if there is not enough energy reserves to provide the required current then the peak voltage is not achieved - and performance suffers
and ALL of this has to be achieved in the blink of an eye
The power supply
is always replenishing it’s power reserves via the power cable
the faster the power cable is at conveying electrical energy, the faster the power supply can replenish energy reserves and satisfy the demand of the amplified signal
But on the mains supply side of the power supply, the voltage is simply 120v flip flopping at 50 (or 60) Hz as you pointed out
However, if you could plot the current draw on the mains side, it too varies in a similar fashion to the musical signal, so when the bass guitar slaps or the bass drum beats, the transient spike is in the form of current drawn and not voltage.
So those mono-blocks with the massive power supplies are more able to handle transient spikes in the signal.
However with smaller components, the power supply tends to be less capable, so connecting a quality power cable to a source component will appear to provide more of a benefit than connecting that same power cable to an amp
For best performance
amps require the very best power cables in order to observe noticeable improvements
source components will provide more of an improvement with a power cables that is perhaps a little less capable than those selected for Power Amps
So, when selecting power cables for any component I look for those that use UP-OCC copper, because it will provide excellent dynamic response. Silver is better, but a lot more expensive.
But, bear in mind that all of this is all happening at lightening fast speeds, so even in the best mono-blocks - good power cables will improve their performance.
most use UP-OCC copper and the best use a solid core wire, which translates to faster response to transient current demands - so better dynamic performance
Is there really any transient current demand that is even measurable? We have the AC crossing zero 120 times a second, and then amplifiers power supplys generally have a bank of capacitors that are holding the energy for output transients.
So clearly any high freq transients that happen when the input voltage is crossing zero, needs to come from the cap-bank.
So is there much happening on the input in terms of transients?
I recall when the VTLs were working, that they would run for many seconds after the power was switched off… basically they would play music until the heaters glow went away.
Or does the effect of the supply side get more important on specific amps with less in terms of the power supply capacitor banks?
@johnnycamp5 - I hope the following provides answers to your questions
I always wondered about the improvements from cables but never (not yet) went down that road.
My biggest unanswered questions are on “power cables” Are these more like a “device” than just the correct quake cable?
And what about the approx. 100’ of romex cable in between your service panel and Gigi rig?
Do the high end power cables somehow eliminate those cheap, solid core copper lines?
These are sincere questions …not trying to be a wise guy.…
First - that 100’ of romex is actually pretty good at conveying electricity
It is solid core - not stranded cable. In power applications stranded cables cannot handle as much current as solid cables, so when those transient spikes hit, a stranded cable will not work as well as solid core
The copper in Romex is actually pretty good quality, so don’t mistake the cheapness of romex for poor quality
the line from the distribution panel to the outlet should be a continuous run without any breaks
so a dedicated line is a better approach than perhaps other outlets that may be part of a spur that attaches to more than a single outlet
Please don’t shoot the messenger with this next comment, but this is how I interpreted the explanation given to me,
where you have a connection point, (e.g. the wall outlet), the only "electrical attribute" present at that connection point is the VOLTAGE.- Current only comes into play once a load is connected
So when you plug in a power cable, the current in THAT CABLE is impacted only by the cable’s electrical attributes (see below)
so if you use a crappy power cable into your component, the result would be quite different than if you used a very good cable
Even though everything else is EXACTLY the same
What does carry forward to the component is noise, because noise is a fluctuation of voltage, which is present at every junction point
So if you consider the "construction" of a really great cable
most use UP-OCC copper and the best use a solid core wire, which translates to faster response to transient current demands - so better dynamic performance
most use advanced insulation types (e.g. foamed teflon) which has a lower dielectric constant value, which results in less noise being generated within the conductors - so improved clarity
Basically, each conductor acts like a capacitor and the charging/recharging of the insulation as the voltage swings through +ve and -ve cycles, creates noise within the conductor - crappy cables use wire with a higher dielectric constant and therefor produces more noise
finally, the very best cables employ a cable geometry that either puts space (e.g. an air gap is best) between the individual conductors in order to prevent induced noise between conductors OR use a geometry that reduces the amount of parallel conductors in the cable. Braiding is an example of a more advanced cable geometry and it results in a lower noise floor
For other examples of cable geometries take a look at the following links
To answer your question, based on my personal experience, Yes cables make a difference. For the sake of comparison, I run Tidal on a crappy old Windows based laptop. This feeds a Schiit Yiggy ( Gen 1 ), to a Rogue pre and a Had Inspire. My speakers are first generation Zu Omens. So our front ends are very close. I run a USB cable to the Yiggy. First I used a cheap cable from my old camera. Then an Audioquest Cinnamon. I had a noticeable improvement. After a couple months I tried a Cardas Clear usb, and again a noticeable improvement. So comparing the Cardas to the cheap camera cable there’s a significant improvement. As far as speaker cables I’ve always used banana connectors. First I used 12 ga bulk speaker cable in copper then silver. Next I used Anti Cables level 3, and now I use Morrow level 4. There was an annoying brightness with the silver 12 ga. From the 12 ga copper to Anti Cables to Morrow 4 I experienced an improvement each time. My opinion is that in my system silver cables are too bright. The Morrows bettered the Anti Cables with better sound stage, but tonality was about the same. In regards to power, I run Morrow Level 4 and use a Richard Gray 1200 power filter. I never used the stock power cords. I started with a mixture of Pangea, Silnote and a digital specific cord. All of these cords had a price point of $100 Ea. So with the Richard Gray already in place, I really didn’t notice an improvement adding the Richard Gray or my Current Morrow cords. However at this point I swapped the heavy power cord that came with the Gray for a Shunyata Venom HC 20 amp cord. That made a very noticeable improvement in the whole system. I also have Hubble medical outlets. For a sound quality comparison please consider this. I have a modded Thorens TT with a Grado Prestige cartridge. When I spin my best vinyl and do an A-B with Tidal, the sound from my crappy laptop is very close to the turntable. Now keep in mind this is limited to specific recordings like Pink Floyd/ DSOTM, Supertramp/ Crime Of the Century, Alice In Chains/ MTV Unplugged, to name a few. This does not apply to all my vinyl Vs streaming Tidal. I’ve also done considerable tube rolling and have a 15x18 room with a vaulted ceiling and heavy shag carpet, heavy drapes and large fabric covered furniture. So my room is fairly forgiving with my system. You have nice gear and obviously know what your doing, so I assume you have equal quality speakers that are properly placed. So I’m of the opinion that all cables matter, but some make only a slight difference. I’m cost driven, so I’ve never tried the expensive stuff, but I’ve tried to match the level of my gear. People that have helped me with my system are of the opinion that any big improvement would come at a significant cost. One of the other things that I noticed is the very long break-in time Morrow cables take, especially the interconnects . So this was my experience and my suggestion is that you take advantage of the free trial many manufacturers offer and remember to allow for break-in time. My Morrow IC’s took 400 hours. Happy Listening and please feel free to PM if you want to chat. Happy Listening, Mike B.
IF you have money to burn through, the best cables I have heard were Goetz and Western Electric's or Dueland's imitations which may sound even better than the originals. 50 years ago Western Electric cables delivered clear voices from coast to coast. You could, assuming that you knew the person at the other end, easily discern who you were speaking to through thousands of miles of cable.. Goetz cables need to be zobeled to ensure that your amp doesn’t go into oscillation at frequencies above your ability to hear it and burn up. You can't be sure that aresistor or capacitor lead won't break, and you won't likely even know that your amp is in trouble until it's too late. They are now selling counterfeit Western Union cable, so I have gone to Dueland for all my new cables. Some will warn you that the tin will create a diode effect. I don't care if it does, cables present their own load to the speaker, hence Goetz cable's capacitance burns up some amps. Regardless of what they claim I've tried home made concoctions, and expensive cables and most just made things worse. The Dueland cables just work, and I can't explain the theory because getting the proper resistance, capacitance, and inductance, crunching those numbers ignores the amp and speakers which are also part of the circuit. As the cables appear to perform regardless of the circuit I just don't care about the why, I am just thrilled to have cables that work. Perhaps I should get the Dueland cables for the speakers, but my old Western Electric cables are the real thing, and I am content with them as speaker cables and Dueland for all my ICs.
+1 for Morrow, that's where I started my cable journey due to the gaurantee, but I bet others (Blue jean, wireworld, anticables) could also deliver.
For me, power cables and speaker cables make the most discernable difference, that and using XLRs vs RCAs. I was shocked at the impact of power cables esp for amp and pre.
Confirmation bias story - when I decided to up my speaker cable game, I posted on the Thiel user's post for advice and happily took Eric Squire's advice and went after Acoustic Zen Hologram, used market for reasons described above. First offer I made was to a guy using these cables in a Magico/Aesthetix system with Audio Note DAC, way way out of my league. He accepted my offer, but then reneged bc he couldn't handle the SQ with different cables! I found another seller and happily hooked up my new cables to my modest system and was happy with the improvement, discernable for sure but not certain I'd be able to tell a difference 100/100 times in a blind comparison test, so have always wondered how much of this is confirmation bias. But more than anything this experience added to my amazement that power cables seemed to have more of an impact. But then I remembered I went from stock power cords to $300 used Cardas, and the speaker cable change was from a lower tier Audioquest to the AZs. Don't get me wrong, I'm sticking with the AZs, but I think this illustrates the fact that you gotta try for yourself and see, and good luck filtering out the CB!
Re digital cables, not sure if I've been able to confidently tell a difference.
All that being said, the weak link in my system might be the long run of AQ Cascade xlrs from pre to amp, I need a good 15-18' and haven't come to terms with spending the same amount of $$$$ on cable as a component. Might have to start a discussion with that question.
Once you get tired of listening to cables, get some tube gear and start swapping out tubes. To me these are great ways to exercise and improve your listening skills.
I think you have to allow for both sides having some correctness in their position. In other words, cables can act as mild tone controls - some may sound a little different than others -- but the difference between cables, in terms of the cost relationship between standard and the higher end cables, is nowhere near the differences you can get with different primary gear - speakers, source, amps.
Also, in general, cables may sound slightly different, but that does not mean expensive ones sound better than cheap ones. This isn’t gourmet food or wine where rarity is created by the quality of the delicacies. This is manufacturers creating culture around their products to create a premium perception.
Also, just because someone has thousands of posts on Audiogon and speaks with complete certainty doesn’t mean they are correct. It just means they post a lot and that’s who they are. There are lots of people in this world that speak with complete certainly about total BS. That is not to say that cables have to be total BS, but just don’t let the tone of one post convince you of anything other than as it relates to the personality of the poster.
EDIT: to clarify, the above refers to analog cables. On the digital side, people tend to misapply analog logic to their digital cables...and hallucinate major differences that from an engineering perspective cannot be there. [And yes, fine to apply the paragraph above to my opinions as well!]
Differences in cables, even those costing megabucks, is subtle at best even in the most resolving of systems in dedicated listening rooms IMO and IME.
I’d suggest buying from a dealer that has a return policy with little to no restocking fees to see if you hear a difference in your system in your home with your ears.
I am not anti-cables and my view is that if someone hears a positive difference between one cable and another (or lifting then off the floor) then that is all that matters. The difference is real for them.
This is pretty much how we get to alternate truths,
(If we assume that there are not multiple realities.)
You will get the full range of opinions on cables in this forum so I'm going to add my experience to the chaos.
When I test interconnects (RCA or XLR) I use a control to diminish Expectation Bias. I have two CD players (Marantz SA8005 and PS Audio PerfectWave transport + MK. II DAC) that sound virtually identical. The way I test a pair of interconnects is to listen to both players with the same CD, establish the sonic baseline, replace a pair of interconnects, and listen again to see if I can hear a difference. Thus far I haven't found a pair of wires that sounds significantly better or worse. I even bought a pair of silver RCA interconnects for several hundred dollars because audiophiles swore that silver had a different sound. Nope - they sound the same.
Regarding speaker wires, I have compared audiophile speaker wires against 16 gauge zip cord and I thought I could hear a small difference so I stuck with the fancy wires. I would like to have the opportunity to compare them in a blind test someday - I suspect that they might sound the same under those circumstances. The expensive wires are much nicer and I like looking at them which makes my whole system sound better (that was only a partial sarcasm).
I have two pieces of specific advice. 1) Blue Jeans Cables are the standard in my experience for well made affordable cables. They actually test the wire they use to optimize the characteristics of the cables for audio use. They are also very well made. If you go with Blue Jeans you can be comfortable that you have wires that will not harm the sound of your system. 2) If you want to experiment with cables it is important to buy used so you can resell them if you don't hear a difference. There are lots of used cables on the various used audio sites. You can also work with Usedcable.com who has a great selection and a workable return policy.
The most important factor in listening to cables is to manage Expectation Bias. It has been proven over and over that we hear with our eyes and brain more than our ears. If you are told (or you believe) that a certain cable makes the treble sound clearer, you will hear that effect when you listen to it. However, if you then participate in a blind test you will find that you cannot hear the difference between that cable and another one. There is a huge body of research on this phenomenon.
I am not anti-cables and my view is that if someone hears a positive difference between one cable and another (or lifting then off the floor) then that is all that matters. The difference is real for them. The point is that you have to trust your own experience and be careful to not be swayed by the manufacturer's and other audiophile's claims regarding how a cable sounds. If a $1000 interconnect sounds better than a $50 interconnect then by all means buy it if you can afford it. But for someone starting out in this hobby a healthy skepticism is important because spending big bucks on cables will not buy you nearly as much sound improvement as spending that money on speakers and other gear.
I was not a believer in speaker cables, power cords, etc. However, I worked with a very knowledgeable sales person at The Cable Company. I ended up spending $4,000 on power cables, speaker wires and digital cables. I was amazed by the sound quality after adding a $700 power cord to my ARCAM AVR550 and purchasing Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level One speaker cables for $1,500. I was amazed by a significant change in detail. I could hear cymbals in greater detail. At first voices sounded harsher, but things settled down after I had put a few hours on them. I thought people were crazy who believed in buying expensive high grade cables. Carbon Miller was a big help because he told me to think of cables as components. The first thing you should do is get rid of those cheap noisy speaker wires and purchase some better speaker cables. The Cable Company has a library with cables you can try before making a purchase. I think you will be amazed by the sound quality. This service to try cables first certainly is fair. Don't listen to those who preach expensive cables are a waste of money, If this were the case cable manufactures will be out of business. You have nothing to lose by at least trying them first. Ask for Steven and tell him I sent you.
Amazon cables Suck , period , blue jeans are better you want a solid cable
that’s a Big step up for reasonable monies Wireworld Equinox interconnects, speaker cables , very good value even their starlight Ethernet , usb cables excellent vaues and sound very respectable , one level from their top which has 4 levels .
I'm not surprised you didn't hear a difference between the USB cables ... that's because there IS no difference. Any decent USB cable brings the 0's and 1's to the other end perfectly fine without errors.
With speaker cable there could be audible differences, given the rest of your setup is capable of bringing out the nuances. But it'll be subtle ... so subtle that only few people with almost absolute hearing will be able to spot them. These people exist, just like there are people who can name the vineyard when they smell and taste a wine, or the 'nose' of a perfume brand, who designs the fragrances. But these people are rare and are well trained ... the question is if you can hear the difference.
I am much better with the wine than with the cables.
I would not waste even a cheap bottle on a USB cable, unless it had a good return policy.
I'm not surprised you didn't hear a difference between the USB cables ... that's because there IS no difference. Any decent USB cable brings the 0's and 1's to the other end perfectly fine without errors.
With speaker cable there could be audible differences, given the rest of your setup is capable of bringing out the nuances. But it'll be subtle ... so subtle that only few people with almost absolute hearing will be able to spot them. These people exist, just like there are people who can name the vineyard when they smell and taste a wine, or the 'nose' of a perfume brand, who designs the fragrances. But these people are rare and are well trained ... the question is if you can hear the difference.
60 return policy and always seem to have generous discounts. Different price levels. Hand made/assembled. Imo, very good "bang for the buck".
I heard an immediate difference on headphones with their phono cables out of the box. I am certainly hearing more detail with stream/flac reference songs now that they have settled in. Of course, YMMV.
At the time, it took about 3 weeks to get them. Well worth the wait for the price.
So much silliness in this thread. Supposedly "everyone" can hear a difference using cable elevators, but maybe not you, so I guess you're not part of everyone. 😏 Unless you can get the help of a friend or wife and swap cables without YOUR knowledge of which one is carrying the electricity, you'll only be dealing with confirmation bias or the placebo effect. I mean, if someone spends a few thousand $$$, they dang well should sound better, right?
I also agree o c c single crystal wire is the best for audio, harmonic technology and acoustic Zen have the best prices the other companies are just gouging with their crazy prices, OCC single Crystal is much better than anything ofc on the market no matter what price it is.
are you kidding you're using crappy wire like that for speaker wire give your head a shake buddy wow better speaker wire will make a big difference man you couldn't use worse wire than that.
My experience is limited with cables, but the only cable that I've heard a significant difference with was a W Audio power cord that I picked up for about $40 on Amazon. The W Audio power cord made a significant difference for my Pathos amplifier. As a result of that experience, I have ordered Audioquest Chicago interconnects to go between my DAC and amplifier to see if I can hear a difference compared to the Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 interconnects that I currently have.
I'm still working on my theory for why I heard a significant difference with the W Audio power cord on my amplifier and maybe with my power conditioner, but not necessarily with my DAC or SACD player. I suspect that the W Audio power cable rejects noise better and the amplifier is the most sensitive to noise.
Part of why I'm willing to try the Audioquest interconnects is that the power cord brought out some micro details that makes me wonder if my system is now at a level where I might hear a difference that I couldn't hear before.
I'd suggest trying a W Audio power cable and seeing if it makes a difference in your system. If it eliminates some noise I think it'll allow you to hear things that you otherwise couldn't when evaluating other potential upgrades.
Simple advice. Buy with a return policy if you're not happy. Not everyone can hear the difference between $50 cables and $5000 cables. If YOU don't hear an improvement, then don't waste your money.
Thank you for all the input. @williewonkaI should have mentioned in the original post, I am using an IsoTek Polaris power conditioner. All of my components are plugged into it. All of the schiit components are just using their stock cables into the power conditioner. Is it worth upgrading those power cords?
As for what others mentioned, I am going to try elevating the wire I currently have and see if that makes a difference. I'll be sure to keep my mind open to better wire/conductors as well.
@oedstrom11 - your Schiit components are much better than most people realize - they just need very good cables!
The Amazon XLR are fine for now - so stick with them
I would start with speaker cables and then power cables
Take a look at Zavfino cables
Try the NOVA OCC SPEAKER CABLE 12AWG - they should work very well
the power cables start around $150 per cable
if possible get the FINA OCC POWER CABLE 14AWG from $215
or the LEGION OFHC 11AWG POWER CABLE from $288
Unfortunately this is the tip of the "cable iceberg", but for a "modest" investment the sound of your system will improve considerably.
Once you complete that upgrade you can try their ARCADIA OCC INTERCONNECT CABLE - granted it is single ended, but it will be a nice upgrade from the Amazon XLR cables
The Zavfino product range is one that stands out above the rest of the commercial brands just because of the wires//insulation/cable geometry they use - their cables are an advanced design and they are extremely well built - PLUS - they actually perform extremely well.
They are also very well suited to your audio components.
They also have some very good higher end products that really excel - when you feel the need to upgrade
There are better cables out there, but they are much more expensive and better suited to higher end components
I realize you may have reservations about cables, but I’ve been building cables for around 15 years and in that time I have installed cables on
small mini systems costing around $350,
bluetooth speakers
my own modest 2 channel system system
and systems up to $60,000
each time - cables have provided the best bang for the buck upgrades I have ever implemented
e.g. The cables I had on my Bifrost cost more than double the price of the Bifrost, but it sounded excellent !
So try the Zavfino speaker cables above and then perhaps a power cable - I think you will be able to hear the difference
BTW - cables can get very complex and very expensive, but there are more affordable DIY alternatives out there and there are people that will build them for you
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