How competitive are you with your system?

devinplombier

@mihorn   In the YouTube listening exercise laid out in your above post, the recording of the Thiel 3.7 sounds closest to the Original, followed by the recording of the Avantgarde.

Indeed, Thiel and AG are very good. And I hope you like Wavetouch too at fraction of their price, size and constraints. I won't argue here which is closer to the original and pleasant to listen to. Everyone has his opinion. Let's back to the regular scheduled program. Alex/Wavetouch audio

@lanx0001 

Conversely, perhaps the inability of  your system to properly decode those tracks reveals a deficiency in your system.  Mercury Living Presence recordings are considered revelatory by most audiophiles.

@stuartk 

My thread doesn’t “disqualify” anyone from posting.  I was just making an observation that it surprises me how my post engendered so many to answer.

@lanx0003 

“My system challenges me to a fight every time i turn it on.”

That was a joke in response to another’s post. Get it?

@rvpiano  My system beautifully decodes the truly magnificent recording of Mahler’s Second Symphony by G. Kaplan I have previously referred, reproducing a live performance with an immersive sound field in my listening space. At the same time, it reveals the flaws in your MLP.

I strongly suggest placing your speakers farther apart to possibly expose the hollowness in the center stage and to expand the soundstage.

I after numerous Years of expressing a Keen Interest in Audio related matters and not really feeling exposed to an inherent competitiveness from those met, unless in the Corridors of a Industry Trade Show running the gauntlet of Hawkers loitering for their next to be ensnared.

Plenty of Competitive attitudes revealing their presence within those environments.

I have been looking at a Thread that has a undertone that strongly suggests Competitiveness is at large, make ones own mind up, The Jury is Out.

 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/whatsbestforum-what-s-going-on?page=3

@lanx0003  

I’m sure your system sounds magnificent on Mahler’s 2nd Symphony.  
But  the true test of an audio system is how it decodes the bits on all digital recordings.  If all the bits of the decoding are not properly in place there will be distortions.  Not that all recordings are created equally well. Certainly some sound much  better than others.  For many reasons. But distortions are usually caused by deficiencies in the system.

@rvpiano Now you're diverting from the issues I was referring to and talking about something else. I can discuss 'distortions' all night long, but that's not the point. I'm talking about the cello's timbre and the center hollowness in the MLP recording you prefer. Just take my advice and move your speakers farther apart and listen again. Your current setup, in terms of speaker spacing, is masking the issue and limiting the soundstage. It’s not ideal. It’s not competitive.

So, you’re asking me to change my system around because you want it to sound worse!  Better re-examine your priorities.

high fi·del·i·ty

/ˌhī fəˈdelədē/

noun

noun: high fidelity; modifier noun: high-fidelity

1. the reproduction of sound with little distortion, giving a result very similar to the original.

High fidelity is my goal and it requires reproduction to produce an end result that is very similar to the original.  The original is best demonstrated on a direct transfer and not a recording at someone’s venue.

One can say, "It is the room" or "I am only using 5-1/2" woofers so what do you expect?" but then they cannot consider this as high fidelity because it is unlike the original and therefore a distortion.

If you want true "high fidelity" you need the equipment and the room to back it up.

@rvpiano 

 "I was just making an observation that it surprises me how my post engendered so many to answer."

I too am amazed how many Agonrs responded to your somewhat inane question. I'm not trying to add to the discord on this thread. So, oh forget it.

Regards,

barts

Forgotten!

* We aren’t bashing each other here. We talk about different sound styles. 

I said all your audio systems sound veiled and mine doesn’t. All you asked before why non-a’philes don’t like this great hi-fi sound. The truth is they hear veiled hi-fi sounds correctly and we are using veils as immersive sounds.

You’ve been hearing veiled sound forever that you can’t hear my system correctly in 30 seconds. Your ears are too hardened with harsh sounds. Your ears and brain need some times to hear delicate true organic sounds.

At quick listen of un-natural sounds are splendid and stimulus. I know what happens to those sounds. Merry-go-round upgrade. They may sound good for short time but  no satisfaction.

Thiel - FINK is not live-recording. It’s dubbed. I can’t hear his room. Video is very veiled and I thought it’s live, but no. His dubbing mixer creates much glare. 

Alex/Wavetouch audio

Original - FINK      

Wavetouch audio - FINK 

Focal - FINK ,  PMC - FINK ,  Montemer Horn-FINK ,  Avantgarde -FINK

toddalin     If you want true "high fidelity" you need the equipment and the room to back it up.

@rvpiano, as always, I hope and wish you well. No question, that there is a competitive, mine is bigger than yours, attitude amongst many of us here, in this industry, and many other industries. Men, and women. Just reading the posts here tell you that. All of the "know it alls". All of the "experienced". All of the "attitudes". The world is competitive, and imo, many people are struggling, in one way or another. Some monetarily, some physically, some mentally, some socially and, some, many of them. I rely on my system to provide me, and me alone, the ability to hear my favorites musicians, playing wonderful compositions, in my home, through recordings. An incredible technology. My mom would have to go and see Frank Sinatra, to hear him. I have a sizable F.S. collection (I am now looking to get into streaming). The only visitors I have are those responding to my local CL to purchase some audio gear. Of course, they want to hear my system and I will oblige them. Admittedly, I do enjoy their faces, as they all close their eyes. Showing off a bit, I suppose....but I am proud of the system I have put together. People are too much into the "sound" of the recordings, making them unhappy, or search out another band aid for improvements. I come from a "live" background, and you need to know, and understand the differences between live and recorded. I accept recorded "graciously", and my speakers are, and have been, the reason (I am very convinced of this). Yes, I have the best damn system!....Enjoy! MrD. 

Mihorn, I don’t agree.  I can hear the room.  I can also hear a resonance in the room not on the original.  But it is well treated compared to most.

https://youtu.be/lDJP95aZ9L8

As I noted, any variation from the direct cut is a distortion.  But we can choose our distortions to suit our wallets and tastes.

I have a somewhat lively room (~5,000 cu ft) that is untreated, though the windows on two sides have blackout blinds, and when I listen, I choose to move the venue to the room rather than moving myself to the venue.  I use no eq or room correction, either electronic or physical.  When I do a video, the effects of the room become readily obvious when one listens to the direct cut.  Sure it’s a distortion, but not so bothersome.

If I had this track, I would do a demo (dogs allowing of course).  But I don't and I don't stream.

Why do they bother responding to this thread if it didn’t occur to them at some point how others’ systems sounded

because you asked:

Do you try to rank your system with others’?    

@rvpiano - you’re wrongly assuming audiophiles typically have the same “comparison” urges as you do.

With “ranking”, one assumes good/better/best.  But after a lot of demos at audio stores and shows I’ve come to the conclusion that there are many great sounding components/systems, but it’s subjective “personal preference” that we strive for - we are not in competition with others who’s preferences don’t match our own.  For instance, I’ve tried very hard demoing many Wilson speakers, but it never “resonated” (drew me into the music) with me unlike Magico, YG, and MBL.  Comparison to others does nothing to help me further the Sonics I like

I do use variety to change it up: various MC carts, SPUs, and a second flea watt system to check out tube magic, and a desktop system.

You might be right. Tho whether dubbed or live recording, Thiel - FINK sounds really grainy and rough. Listen to  Thiel - FINK for 2 minutes. And listen Wavetouch audio - FINK . I can hear WT forever w/out hurting ears.

toddalin   I don’t agree.  I can hear the room.  I can also hear a resonance in the room not on the original.  But it is well treated compared to most..

I gave these YouTube clips another listen, on my system this time.

We all have different tastes but to me, the Thiel and Avantgarde systems are clear front-runners. I have little doubt the Montemar would sound fantastic in the right room, whereas the Focal seem confused and overwhelmed by theirs. The PMC's bass sounds surprisingly flabby, although they may have a physicality in real life that's absent from the video but might tip the scales in their favor.

@kennyc 

i admit my question about why people respond to this thread is somewhat specious.  But I still think a good many people compare their systems to others’.

Who told you masking the issue is a priority? 

@gano ...always, everywhere, and anything can be improved in some fashion....or with the major application of ca$h which can vary wildly in audio.
This variance is due imho to speaker selection v. the space the drivers are in v. the end listeners' ears that are wired to preferences that vary more than the means of presenting such...

Short of DNA transfers to specifics....no middle ground, just muddled mud. *L*

Your best will always be looked down upon by some, yet may be a level some still strive for.

It's been a long while since I've heard someone else's system....which does absolve me from having to be diplomatic in my comments....

toddalin   ~~ If I had this track, I would do a demo (dogs allowing of course).  But I don't and I don't stream.

I love to hear other systems. I downloaded Fink - Trouble's What You're In with free YT download app. You can do same. Fink is 21mb. Can I send this file to you in Agon?  Alex/Wavetouch audio

My computer is not connected to my stereo.  It has it's own monitor system.

I suppose that I could download a track to a drive and plug that into the dongle of my Oppo, but I've not set it up to do this.

Pick something else that is out there, preferably in SACD and if I have it, we'll give it a go.

On another note, I know that you are somewhat local and are welcome to come over and hear first hand.  I'm in the North Tustin area.  Only that way will you experience the soundstage, imaging, and microdetail that are possible at realistic levels that envelop one.

My recordings always come out bright because I sit back into the sofa and the camera stands proud so we don't quite hear the same thing.  And I use a Nikon D750 DSLR, because that's what I have and it does a decent job.

toddalin said:

When I listen to music, I don’t transport to the venue, but rather transport the venue to the room. A deader room would put me more at the venue.

When I do videos they tend to be brighter than what I hear on the couch because my head is typically back to the cushion and the mic stands "proud" away from the cushions. Even moving your head forward a few inches relative to the back of the couch causes major change to the frequency balance.

Mr Boochie said:

This recording business is a part of audio that I never put effort into before. It is a much different world from playback.

The mic’s position is critical. A few inches, up or down in relationship to the midrange/tweeter and woofers, can make a notable difference in the recording. You don’t hear it in real time, but it appears in the recording.
 

https://youtu.be/PVVwzcXtBNk

Recorded with mics on camera. They are too high = muddy mix, shifted to the high frequencies. Bass dynamics are hurt the most by poor mic placement and room acoustics. Mics were at 8-foot distance from the speakers. 54 inches off the ground.
___________________
 

https://youtu.be/PVVwzcXtBNk

Close mic’ing (mics at 18 inches from the front of the speakers and 22 inches in height).

In my experience, ensuring the mics are well supported and isolated from speaker vibrations helps clarity. They pick up extraneous vibrations that muddy or add artificial brightness.
 

BTW, Mr Boochie uses, and these are recordings of JBL L300 speakers.

toddalin     My computer is not connected to my stereo.

My system is not connected to comp nor internet. I make a copy to a memory stick in computer and play it to Oppo USB input. Alex/WTA

toddalin    you experience the soundstage, imaging, and microdetail that are possible at realistic levels that envelop one.

I heard your videos and I don’t need to hear your actual system to get real experience. I’ve been exhibiting my audios >10 years. I heard all exhibiting systems in all other rooms every years. All audio show videos sound signatures are exactly same as what I heard at there.

I know how a good hi-fi system suppose to sound from my experience. It’s the musicality and SQ of audio system to make a listener happy to hear it many hours. Thiel - FINK sounds like scratching a sand paper to me and nobody can listen those sounds for a long time and their spouse (in other room) will bag to get rid of it ASAP. Ask your spouse to hear  this sound. Wavetouch audio - FINK     Alex/Wavetouch audio

No, you’ve not heard my videos because there are none, until now, of the current set-up.  But whatever...

As I said, I bring the venue to the room.  This is a regular CD on an Oppo-95.  The speakers cost $1,500 to make and you are hearing a 23 year old Yamaha receiver with >35,000 hours on it.

No eq or room correction of any type and total investment <$6K.  And we don’t need no subwoofers.  Plus, I can crank rock music to insane levels undistorted!  This recording was done on a Nikon D750 DSLR using it’s internal mics.

https://youtu.be/CoOp12ayIVg

https://youtu.be/yRsdYDuHjTI

https://youtu.be/u12ZxcTvD30

toddalin     No, you’ve not heard my videos because there are none, until now, of the current set-up.  But whatever...

https://youtu.be/CoOp12ayIVg  Original

https://youtu.be/yRsdYDuHjTI  Todd’s

Hey Todd,  Right, I heard your other videos a year ago. I’m hearing your new videos and it sounds much clearer than older videos. Your system sounds better than many (almost all) mega buck systems (>$500k). I admire your finding to make the clearer sound.

All due respect, the right speaker (Eric C voice in your video) sounds bit forward  to my ears (irritation). My suggestion is taking off stuffing (3" x 3") from right spkr (remember how much removed). If my suggestion is rude and unacceptable, I’m very sorry and I apologize. I’m saying in my best respect of your spkr making skill. Alex/Wavetouch audio

IMO a large part of the problem of things like “ranking one’s personal audio system” against another one or the idea of comparison or competition is this. Whatever audio system you build is an assembly of wires, capacitors, transistors, transformers, circuit boards and electronic parts. That’s it. It makes music just like a saxophone or flute or guitar. Many people treat it like it’s special and precious. The idea becomes something like “ my child is smarter than your child” or “my kid is a better football player than your kid”. Take stock and analyze your life and try to figure out “why” you made your stereo the most important thing. There should be many things that come before it. If it all blew away in a storm tomorrow it could be replaced. Not to mention the childish nature of the ranking idea. Unfortunately when I see comments like that I wonder about the maturity of the audiophile thinking like that. A fellow friend and audiophile of mine built a beautiful system for himself and he put it simply, “it’s a hobby”. Certainly not his family or career or something else.

@mihorn 

Please come over to my place and listen to my system and tell me what sounds veiled. Because it sure doesn’t sound veiled to me. 
 

Regards,

Ron 

Hey Ron,  Please post link of your system playing video. 

Here is the clean sound system. OKTAN6 - My Favorite Picture Of You 

There is no veil between me and the music (spkrs). Cheers!  Alex/Wavetouch audio

ronboco

@mihorn     Please come over to my place and listen to my system and tell me what sounds veiled. Because it sure doesn’t sound veiled to me. Regards, Ron 

Here is the clean sound system. OKTAN6 - My Favorite Picture Of You 

@mihorn 

You've been saying that your speakers are the best speakers in the world, but now you're offering someone else's speakers as reference?

@mihorn 

I only have my phone to record my system playing so I don’t think it would sound good at all. I could give it a try though. 
 

Many pro audio videos are made with cell-phones. I think it'll do just fine. Try it. Alex/WTA

ronboco       I only have my phone to record my system playing so I don’t think it would sound good at all. I could give it a try though. 

Not bad, but not great.  There is a hollowness that is not in the original.  Also it sounds more "thin" and "brittle."  (There is an upper bass missing.)

https://youtu.be/dQi_ao5F71s

I’m assuming this is the original.

https://youtu.be/Uwq7LIxYblo

@toddalin please post an audio recording/video of the same song playing on your system. Based on the result you may have to reconsider the part that mine in not great. Looking forward to listening to your system playing back this same track.

I don’t have it and I don’t stream to the audio system.

I am lucky that my computer monitor is a classic Advent system that does a really good job with nearfield monitoring. 

And the reason I can tell that it does a good job is that when I listen to recordings of my system, it sounds true to what I hear in the other room except that on the computer in a recording I can much better hear the effects of the room.  And of course you loose much of the soundstage and imaging.

@toddalin  Ok I see. Try to find it on CD. He was a great singer and all his albums have gems. By the way, your system sounds very good. Better than many high dollar systems.

Thanks,

Consider the room and electronics and recognize, what are those high dollar systems really going to sound like?  

Well, I do not see myself in competition with others but, rather, trying to achieve the best sound quality at the cost level I can afford.  Some can spend more than me, some can spend less, but I think the joy or satisfaction comes from being able to assemble a realistic sounding system at whatever price level one can afford.  I am sure others with more money can do better, but I believe I am doing well at the level I can afford.  Thus, the competition, if any, is against the absolute standard of perfection, however one describes that … but with the realization that we probably will NOT achieve true perfection.  We can achieve, however, a level of realism that is very satisfying. As part of that we need to recognize that we have differing tastes, differing hearing, and that “different” sounds are not necessarily “better” or “worse.”  Sometimes they are just “different,” and we can—and often do—perceive them differently.

Even better, the system is pure musical and spouse approves it. Alex/Wavetouch audio

mike4597   ~~~  I think the joy or satisfaction comes from being able to assemble a realistic sounding system 

I don’t, not at all.  It didn’t take long for me to realize that my audio equipment isn’t in the same league with most of the other people here.  As others have stated, my entire system costs less than what some people pay for one cable.  Compared to other people I know, my system is clearly the best by a large margin, but none of them aspire to audiophile equipment and think that what I have paid for mine (around $9,000) is crazy.  Then again, some of them spend $100,000 on a vehicle, which I think is nuts.  We each have our priorities.  

As others have stated, my entire system costs less than what some people pay for one cable.

As does mine, in its current state at least. 

It’s easy enough to throw money at a system, and if one has the good sense to hire a consultant the result might even sound quite good.

But it’s not the same as putting in the time and effort to learn and research and source components and learn how to fix them as the case may be.

Which makes you wonder, who’s the real audiophile here?

The ability to compare one system to another is not a level playing field. If for no other reason, in this hobby, the room matters more than anything else,and no two rooms are alike.

@mihorn 

i recorded a few songs but don’t know how to get them here. Can you message me on the procedure. Thank you 

Ron 

I don't---I only have 3 friends that are into Hifi, one of which only likes vintage. The other 2 have the same taste as I do and we've shared components before. My inspirations usually come from seeing others rigs on social media. I will occasionally post a pic of my stereo but otherwise I'm content.

The idea is to get the performers to come over to my place and do their thing.  Luckily, the room is big enough to accommodate them.

Again, this is an Oppo-95 though a Yamaha RX-Z9 RECEIVER in "Pure Direct" and my Mermans with no eq or room correction, electronic or physical, and recorded on a Nikon D750 DSLR. 

https://youtu.be/zSX0HLSauag

https://youtu.be/TykEDQDdtaE

This one is for Carlos269.  You certainly hear a difference in the quality of the original recording where here you hear the "digital grain".  (And I probably recorded it a bit "hot".)  These are the problems of having a really revealing system. (I could/should have flipped the "Tube Simulation" switch to remove much of that.  Vanessa was on an SACD.

https://youtu.be/RkBXXVcg-ZU

I'm not a techie but this should work. If I'm wrong, please help guys.

With desktop computer

Go to Youtube.com and log-in with any gmail address (yours or anyone). And watch this video How to Upload Videos on YouTube.

Upload video from smart phone

Go to Youtube app and log-in with any gmail address (yours or anyone). And watch this video Upload to YouTube from Phone

In Agon

After your video is uploaded in YT, ---- copy your YT video address ------ in Agon "Post response", ------- click LINK (looks like a chain next to smile) ------- paste YT video address in Text and URL------- Click OK.    Alex/WTA

ronboco    @mihorn    i recorded a few songs but don’t know how to get them here. Can you message me on the procedure. Thank you