I love to listen to great podcast/interviews with great musicians. Last night i listened to Rick Beato interview Maynard from the great band Tool. Besides being a fantastic conversation, Maynard told Rick the two most influential albums for his music inspiration are Joni Mitchell Blue, and Black Sabbath's first self titled record.
I understand and love Black Sabbaths first record, but I have listened to JM Blue countless times and just don't understand what the hype is. Full disclosure I love female vocalists, and I also love Joni's Court and a Spark. With that said I have heard many musicians rave about Blue. Please enlighten me-what am I missing ?
The other head scratcher for me is Exile on Main Street by the Stones. Again I have heard many musicians rave about this double album. I don't get it... Beggars Banquet-Let it Bleed-Sticky Fingers are so much better in my opinion, but just like Blue, It seems like musicians much prefer Exile on Main Street.
I know its all subjective...but these are two records I have never learned to appreciate. Thoughts ?
@tylermunnsI am sorry I don’t get it. There is nothing to parse here, we might as well talk about race, nationality, age with a praise (e.g. one likes black Spanish female singers in their 50s) there would be nothing sexist, racist, etc. about it - although I understand how it could be twisted. It’s music - we listen to what we like, identifying and labeling what we like is harmless and inevitable. I am all for not hurting anyone’s feelings but when nobody's feeling are hurt/no intention can be found, let’s not read anything into it
I’m not a troll and I don’t like conflict. Opinionated and intense, yes, but not a troll and I don’t like conflict. As such I’ve been thinking about my contributions to this thread quite a bit.
I think I was still “on one” from the previous Taylor Swift thread and would have been well-advised to not drag that energy into this thread, and foist such negativity with the hectoring tone of the first half of my first post on this thread.
For this, I apologize.
I love both LPs in question, and there are plenty of widely-praised things that I either “didn’t get” until relatively late in life (jazz music being a big one - it was mid-30s for me with that) or still “don’t get.” If something doesn’t move you, it doesn’t move you. There’s nothing wrong with that, and it’s entirely possible that at some point in life, it will.
Side note: the YT vid of Joni on the BBC, a 1970 performance that includes many “new” songs soon to be released on Blue, left me amazed and deeply moved.
One of the great artists in pop history in her prime, captured beautifully by the BBC technical staff.
I think when seemingly every media outlet lavishes something with effusive praise, I go into it with a certain expectation that causes me to be disappointed sometimes.
In that situation, I feel like my ability to take the thing on it’s own terms is compromised.
I also think time/place and how I’m exposed to something effects how I feel about it. If something is associated with a very negative experience, it’s hard for me to appreciate it.
With these particular LPs, they were released a decade before I was born, so it wasn’t like, “oh, Joni Mitchell and the Rolling Stones have new LPs out.” I just sought them out from the perspective of “these LPs came out 30 years ago,” or whatever. They were obviously not contemporary releases.
In that scenario, I just thought they were both absolutely brilliant.
With Exile on Main Street, not only do the songs seem to attain a unique, hard-to-define kind of soulful, scuzzy majesty (‘Tumbling Dice,’ ‘Torn and Frayed,’ ‘Let it Loose,’ ‘Soul Survivor,’) but there’s real diversity between something like “Rip This Joint” and “Torn and Frayed,” between “I Just Want to See His Face” and “Sweet Virginia,” between “Ventilator Blues” and “Let it Loose,” etc. etc.
Blue is just genius to me.
The combination of highly sophisticated harmonic composition with such intense emotion and poetry is just masterful to me.
Well, as a huge fan of the run spanning Beggar's Banquet through Sticky Fingers, my reaction to Exiles was the same as yours. I WANTED to like it, I believed it when people so much smarter than me told me I was SUPPOSED to like it, but I just couldn't break into it. Over the years, I've owned 3 or 4 copies, all of which I played in depth, and then finally gave up and sold. There's obviously something there, but other than maybe 2 or 3 tracks, nothing to compare with the accomplishments of the preceding albums.
I’d love to hear a Taylor Swift covering Joni Mitchell album!
Those two bimbos rock! You know, as much as they can for being women...
. . . come to think of it, I do have the Diana Krall Live In Paris SACD with a cover of "A Case Of You" that I really like. And . . . (wait for it) . . . that cover is also included on the double SACD The Wonderful Sounds Of Female Vocals (NOT The Wonderful Sound Of Female VocalISTS as I typed previously).
(And this is also a good time to correct another earlier post I made: my redbook copy of Blue is on DCC--NOT mfsl.)
"I think critiques don’t want to be mainstream. Why is Sgt. Pepper rated ahead of Abbey Road? I never understood it."
Nary impossible to come up with the definitively best, or who’s ahead of who Beatles album. When your choices are for example, between Sgt. Pepper and Abbey Road, both brilliant but not parallel in their style executions, so subjectivity plays a big role in that whole mugwumpery.
Now, throw Revolver, Rubber Soul, The Beatles (White Album) in the mix and you’ll never get a definitive answer. All brilliant in their own right with differing styles, musicianship, song writing maturity, etc...
@thecarpathian I never had a doubt that for me Let It Be and Abbey Road were out there, ahead of of the rest. And as soon as I got on the George train, Abbey Road had to win all my awards. I think it had to do with the fact that all the other albums were enjoyable, but not more than the sum of its part, whereas... but I am just repeating myself.
Indeed. Something about those two albums resonates more with you than the others. I think the only way I could truly pick a favorite is to cherry pick off of several albums to make my ultimate Beatles album. But of course that's cheating and not the point. If I had to choose (gun to the head and all that), I believe it would be Abbey Road also. Simply wonderful from beginning to end!
Agreed. In a similar vein, I can never understand why revolver is so fawned over when it seems to be a disconnected series of individual Tunes with no cohesion.
Tell you one that rarely gets mentioned and that’s ’A Hard Day’s Night.’
Half ( exaggeration) of their ’Love Songs’ compilation album comes from that with other terrific songs. Always been a mystery to me why 'Things We Said Today' isn't on 'Love Songs'.
I remember first hearing Blue at when it was originally released and being stunned. I'm a cynical professional musician (was then also) and was surprised...the dulcimer...too cool. I still listen to that album. Who cares if somebody doesn't get it? My fave Stones album is Beggar's Banquet, and one of my best friends who has pretty similar tastes doesn't get that album at all...ya never know...
Are you serious with the sexism comment? So, I have to like all "basketball" but not just the NBA? I personally like male vocals better than female vocals, it's just what I prefer to listen to. I also like dating women and not dating men. I don't just like "dating."
On the subject of sexism, it’s no secret that the music industry has been objectifying women since day one. They know their target audience and were brilliant marketeers. As the main character in the movie Rustler’s Rhapsody pointed out "To be the good guy and wear a white hat, you have to be a competent heterosexual." The record companies knew this and produced album covers that were only a couple of dbs down from "whacking material." A mental sidetrack to the album Sticky Fingers come to mind here. I just can’t tell you why.
As we "matured" some of got in serious relationships (or, worse) and had to toss aside our old passions and develop new ones -- out in the open. So, we got to covertly cheat on our wives/partners and have a "date night" with Diana Krall, Allison Kraus, etc. and get up and personal with a beautiful creature while giving the one we’re with just enough ample attention as to not get caught in the act.
But seriously, we conduct performance "mods" on equipment and developed a "reference" playlist for before/after listening sessions. Yes, we have guys "singing along" with masterful guitar work. Then there’s those female voices belting out the blues and others adding a level of sophistication and delicacy to the space.
Many of the threads here have been well-worded responses by the grown ups in the room. I apologize ahead of time for my inner adolescent coming out to play.
Anyone who’s having trouble "getting" Joni Mitchell ought to pick up Lloyd Whitesell’s book "The Music of Joni Mitchell." He analyzes every track in her catalog in terms of specific parameters: melody, lyrics/poetry, harmonic structure, personae, arrangement, album concept, etc. There are three appendices that each consider one of her releases in its entirety as a concept album.
There are other books that analyze Joni’s music, but none I’ve found that are as readable, insightful, engaging (not just a dry, academic musicological analysis), and as much fun to read while listening the recordings themselves.
Highly recommended to anyone with a layperson’s background in music theory, poetry, or pop music in general.
From the Amazon page for the book: "The Music of Joni Mitchell offers a comprehensive survey of her output, with many discussions of individual songs, organized by topic rather than chronology. Individual chapters each explore a different aspect of her craft, such as poetic voice, harmony, melody, and large-scale form. A separate chapter is devoted to the central theme of personal freedom, as expressed through diverse symbolic registers of the journey quest, bohemianism, creative license, and spiritual liberation."
I found that, after reading the book, some of my least-favorite Joni albums, like "Seagull" and "Don Juan", became my favorites. I was amazed by how much depth and sophistication was packed into even her earliest songs, such as "Dawntreader" from the first album.
Exile is the Stones on the top of their game. The music is exploratory but all the songs are unmistakably The Rolling Stones. At the time they were certainly in a groove and could do no wrong. Not as pop oriented as the other albums of that era (Beggers, Bleed, Sticky Fingers).
Exile is maybe a bit challenging for more casual listeners. But like whiskey, I prefer my Stones straight up!
Blue is a masterpiece. A complete concept album with a narrative flow. Blue is best served as a whole; it's clarity and depth comes through when listening from the beginning to the end. In my opinion Mitchell's pinnacle achievement.
At the time they were certainly in a groove and could do no wrong
I always thought - until I listened more, and more carefully, that the Stones were messy, lacking direction, genre, without a real talent, overall just hitting that groovy sound that addicts the listener. Quit the opposite. Besides the groove, on top of the chaos, it’s so much attention to detail and sheer genius.
@tony1954FWIW, especially after we consider the Academy/Hollywood’s moral grandstanding, I don’t understand why we have “Best Actor” / “Best Actress,” either.
It’s…acting. I thought equality was what we were after, but what do I know.
imagine if we had "best actor" only - one, for men and women and a men won twice in a row or the other way, it would be a 100 times what happens when Asians and blacks don't win anything.
Plus, it's much easier to act for a women, so let's not mix the 2 categories (JUST KIDDING!!!!!@)
@grislybutterYes.
However, at least they wouldn’t have intellectual egg on their face by bending over backwards to portray themselves as exemplars of equality while having two separate categories. Not that modern Hollywood has much interest in intellectual honesty to begin with…
I think there’s a reason why they have two, and that reason is why they are unlikely to change, cognitive dissonance be damned, and that reason is money.
The industry each year gets twice as many “assets” to market and advertise.
@tylermunnson a serious note, the Oscars for a leading female awards a female playing a female (mostly, we aren't ancient Greece) and that should be recognized as a positive that women get to be written to be characters in movies and not just pretty faces and bodies to keep men from switching the channel.
@bigtwin--I think you hit the nail on the head: Professional musicians often hear music from a completely different perspective and appreciate aspects the general public doesn't.
I heard Court and Spark before i heard Blue so i like it better and rarely listen to Blue. Same story with Let It Bleed vs. Exile.
But i too have often read from both pro musicians and music reviewers that Blue and Exile were seminal--sorry, don't get it.
As for the hijacking of this thread over a nonissue, just stop
Music is purely subjective. There are albums I dislike that are considered masterpieces- namely sgt. pepper and pet sounds- there are some good tracks but to me it’s not a masterpiece. It’s an opinion not a flaw. There is no right or wrong.
I really dig bands like the Dixie Chicks and chick singers that sound like dudes. Masculine sounding babes like Joan Armatrading, Cassandra Wilson, and Me'Shell N'Dageocello rock me, like my back ain't got no bone! Woke up this mornin', feelin' 'round for my shoes, know 'bout 'at I got these, old (none 'o dose) damn woke-in blues.........
Can we talk about the music? Not that DEI isn't a serious conversation needing to be had.
On Exile, it's like being with them in a basement working on a set. Dirty, a little underproduced, but a great complement to the other albums in The Greatest Run of Albums of All Time. And lots of great songs albeit I know that observation doesn't shed much light.
Other albums like this - albums that bring you into process and require some work to like (or at least to like all of it): Clash-Sandinista, Beatles-Let it Be. Led Zeppelin-Physical Graffiti.
No opinion on Blue. But now I feel like I need to check it out.
The following may be seem elementary/obvious to you. If so, feel free to ignore it.
I’d suggest appreciating and liking are two different things and when it comes to esthetics, the former does not necessarily lead to the latter.
What sort of listener are you? By this I mean, which portion(s) of your perceptive capacities is/are most active when listening? You can think of this in terms of right brain/left brain.
Personally, I’ve never found that reading commentaries/criticism, etc. has has much impact in terms of enhancing my enjoyment of music because for me, it’s all about emotion and physicality. If my emotions and body are not engaged, no amount of intellectual information will compensate. I can learn to respect music based upon enhanced understanding of its structure and intent but for me enjoyment is not rooted in the left brain. I want to be carried away by music and for me, this is not a left brain function/state.
Needless to say, you may be different. My point is that it’s crucial to understand this about one’s self. Otherwise, how can one trust one’s esthetic sensibilities?
Yes, great music to listen to in the car. There are quite a few albums I've struggled with until taking them on the road. The albums from Miles Davis's 2nd quintet really landed for me while driving around late at night. Maybe records like BLUE and EXILES are harder to look at straight on, without some kind of distraction? Though, BLUE gets my attention just about anywhere anytime.
Ranked by sales volume below (exile 11.24 million ain’t too bad), but they are all good in my opinion. Hard to say that any albums are bad if you are a true Stones fan. Emotional rescue follows exile in 11th spot. But I’m scratching my head, is that a “female vocalist” in that song!?!? LOL
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