Still here lol. Krell FPB 600 drives them pretty well! |
Have had my R90's for 5-6 years now and i really like them. I am feeding them with Electrocompaniet amplifiers (EC 4.9 pre and AW 2x120) and source (EMP/1). I also use a couple of Infinity RS6b as surround speakers (amplified by ECI1). I have liked the combination of Electrocompaniet and Infinity since the early 80's. It sounds great and I have so far not had any trouble with either of them. But now the R90's will sadly get some competition since I have just bought myself a couple of IRS Betas :) |
AFAIK, All Ren 90's come standard with a 0.5R resistor in series with the EMIT and 2x 0.5R resistors in series (1R) at the input to the tweeter crossover. The tweeter crossover is identical to that (same values) used in the Sigma / Epsilon but the latter drive 2x EMITs in series. The crossover values are actually optimised for 8 ohms, not 4 ohms and the response exhibits a pronounced peak at 4kHz followed by a saddle at 5-7 kHz before rising above 10kHz. My guess is that this gives a reasonably flat response at 30 degress off axis, although I've not performed measurements to confirm.
The other point to note about the Ren's is that the EMIM crossover is not quite as well optimised as it in the Sigma or Epsilon, thus allowing scope for considerdable improvement which means a flatter response and a less demanding load on the amplifier driving it.
With a few value changes and component upgardes plus fitting of a fabric acoustic disperser to the EMIT, it's possible to gain a ginat lift in accuracy and purity.
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My rens utilize a 10w 5 ohm resistor at the positive (r2) & a 5w 0.5 ohm near the negative (r1)
I noticed the schematic has them both 5w 0.5 ohm. I swapped the 10w 5 ohm for a 10w 1 ohm (r2) and the sound is more forward compared to how they were originaly.
Was there production changes? If so why such a dramatic change and which was the original way? I found mine to sound very relaxed on the top end originaly while others say theirs sound forward. Maybe this explains. |
Still own my ren 90's and love them! Only if there was more time to listen to them. |
Congratulations, its always nice to see other Ren 90 owners online. I own two pairs of them, one in blonde oak, the other in the special hi gloss black lacquer. The hi gloss are very hard to find, so I feel very fortunate to have been able to buy a set a few years ago. Cary Christie actually signed a color-copy picture of the Ren 90's I had sent to him, which I thought was a very cool thing to do.
Greetings from New York/Happy Holidays
Fred |
Hi Maw, I think 4 th order (24dB) but am not sure. I down-
loaded IRS Sigma 'technical manual' and looked for you for
the source but the only info is : Infinity Systems,Inc New
York.
Regards, |
Does anyone know what order filters are used in the R90's?
Just curious :) |
Now I'm driving them with a Vincent SP-331 they sound better. Guess this is still the very minimum you should give them though.. absolutely right ! ... the more power & control, better ... the difference is huge only then you will discover what they are capable of |
I bought a pair in the piano gloss finish from a firsthand owner in Germany. He was retired and had used them in his dining room for listening classical music.
They look like new and sound like heaven! I would not know any speaker that sounds as good and looks half as good at this price in the second hand market.
The down side seems to be driving them. First I used my Nad C370 integrated and it seemed ok. Now I'm driving them with a Vincent SP-331 they sound better. Guess this is still the very minimum you should give them though.. |
Try Parasound JC-1s and true bi-wire them using one set of binding posts for the highs and the other for the lows. I am getting amazing results! |
Recent new owner here and, lucky enough to have found a pair in Piano Gloss, one owner and immaculate !
Powered now with an ME-1400, following experimentation with Krell etc.
25 years of buying, swapping and selling Audio ... I think the Ren's may be around for some time to come - they're superb speakers in almost every way. |
Another owner still here. |
'natural filter', my next Infinity was the Sigma while my
son got the Renaissance. The tweeter of Sigma was covered
with a peace of felt (the stuff for hats) with a small cut
in the middle. I made a 'copy' of this filter for my son and fastened the thing with the double sided tape on both
adges. The result was a much better dispersion above 4Khz
and more linear fr. responce. In the user manual of the Sigma was the explanation of this filter. I sold my Sigma
4 years ago and bought the Usher BE-20. So I am alas not
able to 'reproduce' this explanation. I hope that sombody
else will provide this info as well as the dimensions of this filter with the 'cut in' size.
Regards, |
.
The black ash was the same cost as the blonde ash.
It was the piano black finish that added an additional $3k to the cost. The piano black is extremely rare.
. |
Hi, I owned the R.90 and am sure that black ash version was
more expensive. Regarding the X-over I would only subsitute
electrolitic caps. Ie when you eventualy want to sell them
you will never get the money spend on exotic parts back.
Regards, |
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I just saw this discussion now, are any other Ren 90 owners/enthusiasts still here? |
Hi Olp88,
I have an update of my own! I sold my Renaissance 90's a couple of months ago. I thought to myself "Do I really want to stuff around extensively modding these things, getting them re-finished etc and worrying about spare parts?" & came to the conclusion no I don't. The other thing which became very obvious once they were set up is their need for a big iron amp, or bi-amping which I currently don't have the inclination to do. In their place, I bought a pair of Marten Coltrane Alto's (2004) which retailed then for $24kUS. They use the same Accuton drivers used by Kharma & Talon, extremely high order crossovers, Jorma #1 internal wiring (incl: Bybee quantum filters) & awesome piano black carbon fibre monoqoque cabinets with no parallel surfaces, bi-wired WBT binding posts etc & have similarly impressive frequency response & speed as the Rens.
That Luxman does look beautiful! (although these days, given I run fully balanced components, the Lux would be a bit old school for my needs). My Classe Cap-2100 is doing regular duties for now, but my dream set up would probably be a pair of class a Pass monoblocks & a Modwright tube pre-amp run fully balanced, but have too many other priorities upstream/downstream for now! |
Hi Melbguy1,
Need to give you an update. Switched out amps to a Luxman M-05 Pure Class A 105 Watts per channel into 8 ohms. When I said wow before, double it! The bass extension has been the best I've heard through them. Seems that the best power combination I have found is a tube pre-amp with a hefty class A amp. Hope this helps. |
Hi Clavil,
I've not heard the latest Evo amps but from my experience the really big Krells usually don't sound quite as nice in the mid / treble as the smaller Krell's. My favourite Krell is the FPB300 which is also pure Class A. I heard that the Evo are now class AB ?.
Sometimes a room can also cause a dry and rather bland treble - if there is too much carpet and soft furnishings as well as room treatments that absorb too much treble.
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Hi Timpani,
very interesting!
concerning Krell I had a strange experience, I heard following set up:
EVO 900 + preamp EVO n° ?
EVO 505
MIT Oracle
Magico V3
all in a prepared room
and it was ... bad to very bad!
I know a little bit the Mini magicos and the V3 and never before I heard such a dry sound ...
could it be that everything is still more complicate ... like between humans with personal "sympathies and antipathies" between speakers & electronic ? |
Hi Melbguy,
I actually responded to you on AK which you will see before you read this but it was without the benefit of your latest comments here. IMO 4K on a line filter is insane but even more so in your case if you buy the Classe CAP because it is so well designed. Read my other comments and digest them. The mods will work out fine if your AE knows what he's doing but the best approach - be it single or bi-amp may not be apparent until the design work is partly underway. I'll explain further tomorrow. |
Timpani, what a difference a day makes in the life of an audiophile. After weighing up the benefits $4000.00(AU) was going to make to my system invested in either a line filter or in a high end re-design/re-wire & external x-over mod to my Rens, I realized ok, they're in great shape BUT they are 14 years old, and wiring and caps would have degraded to a certain extent...added to which, that's an opportunity to replace $8 per meter internal cable with $800.00 per internal wire & replace the 5% standard value caps with the best sounding sounding caps around. All the comments from IRS-Sigma owners I admit at first made no sense to me, but with your clarification, yeah obviously their superior crossover does make a noticeable difference. The re-design I am planning however is on a much higher order & results should be stunning. The new x-over will make the Rens more efficient as well. This is significant in itself in with this mod, I should be able to achieve the same stunning results as guys like Clavil running a single big iron amp & pre. I think that is a smarter solution to bi-amping, do you agree? And yes, I will proudly wear my gold medal for the backflip, thank you! |
Hi Timpani, You're right. Thanks for clarifying what you meant..I had that "Ah ha" moment!..Kudos to the IRS Epsilon & Carie Christie..what a genius (shakes his head with smile). Yup well I say if you spend $14000.00, you deserve a little extra sugar in your coffee (or an extra membrane in your Tweeter!) Damn straight Timpani, we are getting old aren't we! I can still vividly recall old Stereophile articles going back to the 80's (scary). Your comments on the Rens and Emit/Emims are very interesting!
I digress, thanks for the tip on the set up of the Rens. I'll start out at 90° and then work in small increments up to 1/4 of an inch as Okeeteekid suggested. I do agree with upstream electronics & the weakest link theory. Weighing up weather to plug all my high end pc's into a cheap powerboard, or invest in a high end filter, i've decided to snap up RS's new Jaco 'Elite' power filter. The new Elite incorporates much of the guts of the Dmitri filter & other design features and does look good. I also like the idea of being able to buy high-end US grade Oyaide plugs on my pcs (otherwise unavailable to the OZ market), alas I wont hijack a thread on the 90's..there is another chewing on that subject.
After upgrading all my cables, power supply & isolation this year, it will be fun saving for my big Classe & AR next year. Now that certainly is a Ferarri (with a pretty sexy body too). |
if you where to run your Fet nine + OCM 200 on one of those cheap speakers with all paper cone drivers, tweeter included (vintage radio shack), and compare them to the ren 90's driven by any bottom line brand receiver, i think that the ren 90's would still sound better, someone should run a blind test. LOL
greg |
It's an age old discussion point. The safe statement is to say that any system is only as good as the weakest link. However, as a part time amplifier designer I can say that there is infinitely more scope for design variations with amps than there is with speakers, which is the opposite to what most people might expect. It's also a fair point to state the amplifier > speaker interface and the complex load presented by the speaker can and does induce distortions in every amplifier - but very differently depending on the ampifier design. This can be a huge source of confusion for audiophiles who spend a great deal of time changing their power amplifiers for the best possible result only to find after an upgrade of speakers that the amp sounds mediocre when compared with one they had previously discarded. Of course these statements are most true of low to mid priced amps but they can also sometimes apply to very expensive designs. I regard Krell highly because in my experience they produce close to the the same sound regardless of the speaker load presented. When you hear differences between speakers you can be far more certain that they are indeed differences between speakers. Not too long ago I was visiting someone who loved AR preamps. He was demo'ing differences between interconnect cables to the power amp and he believed that his AR must be better than his Krell because it was showing up big differences while the Krell did not. Of course the reality was that the different cables had very different amounts of capacitance which was exposed by the relatively high output impedance of the tube preamp. Unfortunately I was not able to convince him that this was the case. That's not to say that I don't believe that cables can make a difference but from my experince as an amp designer I have found that a small change to an amplifier gain stage - even a small change to a resistor value can result in a far bigger change than you can get by changing cables.
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i feel the speaker is the last of your components in a system that is heard and the most critical component in your system, you can run a kmart speaker on the worlds best electronics and it will sound ok but if you run the worlds best speaker on "kmart" electronics i feel it will always sound better than the after mentioned.
greg Sorry I don't agree, and especially in the case of the R.90 a weak electronic will show you 10% of these speakers. I gave my Fet nine + OCM 200 (from David Belles) to a friend who has a couple of 20 years very modest & old Canton bookschelves speakers, you should hear how they are sounding now! ... we were very surprised. It's like with cars do you prefer to have a Ferrari with an engine of Mini or a Mini with an engine of Ferrari? My choice is done ;-) |
i feel the speaker is the last of your components in a system that is heard and the most critical component in your system, you can run a kmart speaker on the worlds best electronics and it will sound ok but if you run the worlds best speaker on "kmart" electronics i feel it will always sound better than the after mentioned.
greg
|
Melbguy, My comments need to be taken in correct context and with allowance for the fact that I have recently been playing with tweeters that have a 120 degree beamwidth at 20kHz. The EMIT's are probably as good as many or even most dome tweeters in terms of dispersion and everything you point out about their develoment is correct but I am pretty sure that they were refined further for the Epsilon and the dispersion was the major criteria. I recall reading this in the Sterephile review about 10 years ago now (how time flies). By adjusting the amount of toe-in you will certainly be able to fine tune them nicely but just don't expect a really huge sweet spot. But as I have said before the EMIT's are fine tweeters and by far and away the best planar tweeter I have ever heard. I have also heard several of the Kappa series and IMO the Rens are more accurate and detailed and because the EMIM and EMIT are of exactly the same design they are able to acheive that rare feat of almost perfect integration from mid to treble which IMO is by far the most important crossover point in any speaker system. In most respects the Infinity multi planar driver approach is better than most of the full range planar designs due to the mentioned beamwidth > frequency issues and also because planar drivers make it possible to implement the near perfect passive crossover - due to their flat and wide resistive impedance. In other words it's almost as though there is no crossover and that's why (when set up correctly) the Ren's + IRS Infinity's sound quite a bit like an electrostatic speaker.
I can understand that the next 2 weeks will be a long time
but all the very best for eternity after that. After all, 'Infinity' is forever.
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Hi Timpani, I completely agree with your comments on the quality of upstream components (particularly amps) & the need to feed the Watkins high current, that's why I like the Classe so much, it gives you enough watts in a single pa, but a truckload of current to boot. For me, the Classe combined with a Reference 3 pre-amp is a match made in Heaven for the Rens :)
Okeeteekid, it was great to read your comments on your K9s! What is exciting about your findings is that, taking me as an example, I purchased a superb example of Ren 90's with a long-term view. I would be happy for them to be my speakers for life, but of course at some point in the future age will catch up with them. The Watkins and midrange drivers will require re-foaming, the internal caps will degrade & the wiring will oxidize, so it's encouraging to see how much more potential there obviously is there. In my case, I plan to do quite an extreme, external crossover connected with something like Nordost Supreme Reference for the short run to the speakers, but will leave the drivers alone. The guru I would get to do the speaker re-design is a guy in Australia who Timpani would have heard of - Dallas Clarke. To say he knows his stuff is an understatement! My only question is, would there be more value in spending $4000AU on a RS filter & pc or investing something like $3000 on the speaker re-design, re-wire & external crossover & just plug my high end pc's directly into a kmart powerboard connected to the wall? Would like to hear your view on that.. |
Hi Timpani,
I was wondering in your response: "These emits are the same as used in the Epsilon but in the Epsilon they are used with a specially designed dispersion membrane which increases their horizontal and vertical dispersion and eliminates the hot on axis response, making them more accurate over a wider listening window." were you referring to the silk membrane which is described in the breakdown of the High Energy Emit in the Ren's technical white paper?
I was also curious about your comments about the dispersion of the Emit in the Rens as Infinity state in their White Paper - "The new High Energy Emit is operated with a relatively narrow frequency band which assures maximum dispersion within its operating range" & this..
"The High Energy Emit's new mechanical structure permits also permits the driver to be used at lower frequencies than previous Emit drivers enabling it's speed and transient capabilities to become even more meaningful to the overall balance of the system. Crossing over the High Energy Emit lower also results in better dispersion because the Emim midrange driver is removed from the system before it can acoustically beam from the shorter wavelengths generated at higher frequencies. The High Energy Emit also features newly designed vertical apertures that provide wide dispersion and permit high frequencies to spread evenly and broadly throughout the listening area."
So given the above statements, I had an impression of the Ren's Emit offering a wide sweet spot and a large, expansive soundstage, so I was surprised to read your observations :S I guess proof is always in the pudding as they say however. I found out today my Rens will be arriving in about 2 weeks :)) |
Melbguy, you mentioned how sensitive the rens are to electronics. That is definitely the case and has enabled me to hear subtle changes in the preamps I've designed over the past 10 years. Although the power amp usually offers the biggest contributor to SQ I have also heard great power amps ruined by poor preamps and front ends. One power amp that was really outstanding was a ME1400. I had Trevor Wilson from Rage audio up here one day demo'ing one and I have really never heard any amp since to drive the Watkins woofers the way the ME1400 did. Unfortunately the ME1400 was going to set me back about $8000 so I resisted the purchase - just. That big ME amp could apparently output more than 60 amps so I think there's a message in there - that high current is the way to go to get the best out of the WWs. |
Melbguy1, with the upgrade that i did on my k 9's, if i compare them to my ren 90's, it's not even close, with the k 9's you hear so much more detail that when i switch to the rens you don't even hear what the k 9's are revealing, it almost sounds like the rens tweeters are broken, the rens sound like you have cotton balls in your ears as compared to the modded k 9's, i think that it is the sound that the solen caps produce because when i put new solens in my k 9's they sounded much like the rens sound(dead) if you heard the difference you would not believe your ears. |
Hmmm Okeeteekid, Clavil's comments make me think you mod on your K9's may have cured an efficiency problem. Those monsters Clavil is driving his Rens with, and the similarly superb results owners report from similar set ups makes me think that if you can overcome the Ren's efficiency issue, you can really see what they're capable of. I know the Kappas are preferred for those wanting a "big" sound and more bass slam, but I can't believe that, given sufficient high quality amplification, the Kappa's tweeters could be more revealing than the High Energy Emit which Cary Christie described as Infinity's best tweeter to date. The thing is though, the Rens MUST be connected with upstream components purer than holy water & MUST be driven with a LOT of very smooth, clean power. Plug in the wrong amp, and the Rens sound just "ok". But your experience is interesting. I just wonder if with a given set up, the Rens wouldn't outstrip the Kappas..to me, save for the above caviat, they should sound more revealing...
With the above said, if you have hit the jackpot with your current set up, fantastic! It's just a shame you're not in Timpani's neck of the woods, otherwise I might have been able to come over for a listen one day :( |
Hi Okeeteekid,
Thanks for the comments. Yes as indicated in an earlier post I made a dedicated EMIT crossover using Mundorf SIO and copper foil inductors. I have also tried Claricaps. My favourite are the Mundorfs but they need a special DC bias generator to sound their best. I'm sure there are quite a few caps that sound better than the Solens but IMO they are not too bad and if they do err it's on the polite side so they might be more listener friendly for most people. But then it's more about personal choice when it comes to caps and there always seems to be a diversity of opinions. Nice work on the K9's though. They are a great bang for buck speaker.
Cheers,
Timpani |
I only ever feed my system from CD / SACD source but there are many CD's (old and new) where the soundstage is so wide that it wraps around - 360 degrees. Instruments often appear to be behind my listening position - and no I'm not using any pseudo 3D encoding. I wonder if anyone else gets this experience from their Rens. Indeed a friend of mine who owns Krell gear driving B&W800S speaker ($$$) claims that the Ren's are somhow creating an artificial 3D experience. I don't buy that though. I believe the Ren's are one of a select few speakers that can actually recreate the actual recorder soundstage. |
I have them 1.30 from side walls and 1.50 from rear. With the "toe in" you can decide how deep you want the stage to be ...
furthermore only the right amplification will produce a completely holografic stage imaging |
Yes I agree with you re the tilt. None or just a little works best for me too. I also discovered early on that close proximity to side walls kills the soundstage. You need several feet (1m) as a minimum. |
i tried firing them directly down the room without any toe in and i also find them to be more accurate and to me the sound stage also improves, but with 1/4 of an inch toe in i find that they image slightly better in my room, do you angle your speaker back? i like mine about a 1/4" angled back, a laser comes in handy when measuring, i also like them with no angle at all, its amazing how 1/4 of an inch angled back can effect the sound, thanks for the advice, i think your right, the super tweeter is the way to go.
greg |
The main issue with the EMIT as I see (hear) it is that they become very directional above 10kHz and they are too hot on axis and too rolled off when off axis. The tonal balance from 10KHz down is best when 30 dgrees off axis and for that reason I have always found them to sound most accurate when firing directly down the room without any toe-in. These emits are the same as used in the Epsilon but in the Epsilon they are used with a specially designed dispersion membrane which increases their horizontal and vertical dispersion and eliminates the hot on axis response, making them more accurate over a wider listening window. As you would have read in my previous posts my ultimate recommendation is to use a supertweeter to augment response above 10kHz but you need to have some technical expertise to implement this correctly.
If you want to experiment another option is to slightly modify the existing EMIT crossover. If you can locate the 5.6uF solen capacitor then solder a 1uF 2% polypropylene film cap in parallel with it. Then locate the 0.5 ohm (2x1 ohms in parallel) closer to the EMIT crossover input, and remove one of the 0.5 ohm resistors so that it becomes 1.0 OHMS. (Do not touch the 5W 0.5 ohm resistor at the crossover output.)
This mod will remove a saddle in the response between 4 and 8kHz and will allow you to toe the speakers in a bit further without them sounding as peaky in the 10 - 12kHz region.
Timpani |
hi timpani,
i may try your tweeter crossover mod in the future on my ren 90's, like i said after completing the k9 mod and comparing it to the ren 90's, you can really hear how the high frequencies roll off on the rens, being that the k9 has the smaller and faster semit in it, i don't know if you can get the rens to equal the k9's performance over 10 k, but i think i can equal or better the k9's dynamics as the rens tweeter is a little larger.
greg |
Hi Okeeteekid,
Thanks for the comments. Yes as indicated in an earlier post I made a dedicated EMIT crossover using Mundorf SIO and copper foil inductors. I have also tried Claricaps. My favourite are the Mundorfs but they need a special DC bias generator to sound their best. I'm sure there are quite a few caps that sound better than the Solens but IMO they are not too bad and if they do err it's on the polite side so they might be more listener friendly for most people. But then it's more about personal choice when it comes to caps and there always seems to be a diversity of opinions. Nice work on the K9's though. They are a great bang for buck speaker.
Cheers,
Timpani |
Hi everybody,
nice to see so many enthousiasts for Infinty's Renaissance 90.
I bought them in 1995 in black ash, mostly because of their marvellous mid range and the stage imaging. Until summer 2008 I had a Treshold Fet nine + OCM 200 (some 250 Watt /channel) to drive them. I choose this combination after having heard a couple of different things, beetween them there was also a Classé Audio (which number ?? I can't remenber).
In August last year I had at home a Audio Research Ref 3 and Jeff Rowland's Capri & monoblocs 501 (1000 watt per channel at 4 Ohm) ...
Oh my goodness, this was incredible, I discovered 13 years after having bought them how really they can sound. This was a shock (a beautifull one ;-) ) the staging became completely holografic, the musicians are just playing there in the middle of the room in front of me, I can zoom with the ears beetween the instruments, the sound never gets hard, and the stage is deep and wide.
I think these elegant beasts need a lot of power, the more they get the better they are under control and only in these conditons they can show their best.
Now I have upgraded everything in my system, I use Rowlands Capri, Monos 501 with their PC1 (a unit which makes the 501 sounds even better). Perfect and precise bass and mellow middle & high range. (I hear mostly Symphonic Music, Opera & Jazz).
At your place I would definitively try Jeff Rowlands Monos 501 , you will just wonder. Maybe you could also consider Nuforce. From this point you have then to build your system like a french dinner in a 3 stars Michelin Restaurant, choosing the right I.C. & P.C. which matches with your taste and you will have long years of pleasure ;-)
Infinity's Sigma is a little different as it is a dipole speaker, one Emit is on the back and the bass and mid speakes are bigger than Renaissance's ones. I have never heard them and would be happy if somebody could tell the differences beetween them.
Furthermore I wonder if somebody could tell which speaker in 2009 has similar sound caracteristics or is a succesfull further development of the R.90. |
i have owned the sigma's and thought that the woofer did not make a smooth transaction into the mid bass driver, i always felt that the upper bass was lacking thus the reason i sold them, from the midrange up i thought that the sigmas sounded slightly better than the ren 90's probably because they used higher quality caps in them, i now have a pair of ren 90's and i actually like the sound of them better than the sigmas, i also have a pair of kappa 9's that i replaced all the old solen caps in the crossovers tweeter section with new solen caps and after the break in period, well let me say that the new solens sounded like crap and they are the same ones used in the ren 90, i called sonicraft and asked them which caps do they think would sound the best in my kappa 9's and they recommended the wonder dynamicaps over my preference the mondorf silver oils, the fellow i spoke with said that he would sell me either one but that i would be waisting my money if i went with the mondorfs, that the dynamicaps would match the kappa 9's much better, so i bought and installed the dynamicaps in all the crossovers tweeter sections in my kappa 9's, omg what a difference in the sound you hear everything, when i used to compare the kappa 9's to my ren 90's i always thought that the rens from about 5k to 10k sounded much better more dynamics than the kappa 9's, but not anymore, i used to like to listen to my rens but now when i compare them after having done the mod to the kappa 9's the rens sound like you have cotton balls in your ears and i just don't like to listen to them anymore, i wonder if you replaced the solen caps in the tweeters crossover section in the rens with the wonder dynamicaps how much better they will sound, has anyone tried replacing the caps in the rens crossovers tweeter section ? if so what where the results?.
greg |
The xo changes did not seem to find their way into an updated schematic but there must have been errata's sent out to distributors. The only schematics I have been able to find have all had the same values as those in my early gen 90's. The changes I am aware of are in the EMIM LPF (2nd pole) and there were also some updated values in the woofer XO to provide a bit more punch and speed in the bass - at the expense of a little extension. None of these changes make any radical difference but the changes to the EMIM do make the response slightly flatter through the crossover region and address a 2-3dB spike at 2.3kHz. Bear in mind that the values chosen in the EMIM / EMIT crossover are mostly all 5% standard values - which are easy to obtain and result in a lower production cost so there is actually some scope for fine tuning. If you look at the crossover schematics for the IRS Sigma EMIT / EMIM XO you will not find any standard value caps or inductors - hence the higher price tag. Fortunately though the solen caps in the EMIT XO are all very HQ and ditto the EMIM with the exception of C4. This cap is somewhat critical because any capacitance modulation here will result in some audible distortion, which is why I changed it to a BG. The Sigma's address this by using a polyprop cap in parallel with a HQ electro. This is a 50% improvement but I'm sure the Epsilon uses pp throughout.
In summary, the Ren 90's are using the exact same EMIT + EMIM drivers as used in the Sigma's and nearly the same quality of crossover components - save for one cap. The main difference seems to be that the Sigma's do have fine tuned component values for a slightly more linear response - but remember that subsequent revisions of the Ren XO have largely addressed these so if you are not aware of any colourations then any modding is probably not worthwhile. FWIW I have never heard the Sigma's but it's unlikely that they would offer any significant improvements over the Ren's. |
Thanks Timpani, am not contemplating any refurb of my crossover as mentioned at this stage, but your comments are interesting. Also, which version of the Ren 90 crossover is that, as there were obviously several revisions throughout the production run for the Rens?
Cheers |
Melbguy + others
IMO the only real shortcoming of the emit tweeter is the narrowing dispersion at very high frequencies. This results in a rolloff of high frequencies above 10KHz at > 25 degrees off axis and a rising response - on axis. For this reason the amount of 'toe in' becomes very critical in achieving the right tonal balance which makes then Ren's more of a 'one person' speaker because the sweet spot is very narrow. I have experimented (in the past) with ribbon super tweeters (sitting on top of the cabinets) to supplement the dispersion above 10Khz but I found that it was best to cross over (via a passive network) just above 10KHz, but the additional crossover introduces time alignment complications which can take plenty of listening time to fully optimise. However I was able to acheive excellent results using Raven R1's as super tweeters with a first order crossover at 10KHz. This made the horizontal dispersion really wide and gave the treble more 'air' creating an even bigger soundstage. Unfortunately the trade off was poorer vertical beamwidth (due to the distance between the EMIT and the Ravens) and this made listener height more critical. However I did persist with this setup for some time because it worked better in my room. I'm now using Raal ribbon tweeters which sit on top of the cabinets and the EMITs are no longer connected. This avoids the interactions between tweeters but the larger distance between the EMIM and the Raals does reduce the vertical sweet spot. I will probably (ultimately) go back to using the EMITs with the Raals purely as super tweeters because the EMITs IMO are better than all of the pure ribbon tweeters I've tested in the low range (2 - 6 KHz). The Ravens in particular are very poor performers below 6KHz where they sound very thin and dynamically very lacking. They are a very over rated tweeter IMO but they do work well as super tweeters due to the 50KHz BW and performance above 10KHz is pretty good.
FWIW I'm about to embark on an upgrade of the caps in the Watkins woofer crossover. The bass is sounding a little bit spongy these days which makes me think that the caps are lossy and need replacing. I will provide feedback to this thread on the outcome of that upgrade in the hopefully not too distant future. I do have the schematic but getting the correct value caps from a reliable manufacturer might be a challenge.
Here is a link to the Ren 90 crossover schematic. I would advise downloading this while it's available. Note there is an error. The 5 ohm resistor in series with the EMIT should read 0.5R.
http://www.kalman.org/RENAISSANCE%2090%20x-over.pdf
Timpani |
Timpany, thanks for sharing your technical experience with the Ren 90's. As most fans of these speakers would know, there are basically no reputable critical reviews to be found online, and therefore no lab reports etc..you're relying on Infinity's semi-technical white paper; so I and i'm sure many other Ren 90 owners would appreciate your comments.
I was interested in your comment that planar driver impedance remains constant with varying input & your point that this is otherwise a source of non-linearity with cones as one of the technical achievements of the Infinity/Watkins woofer was how the secondary motor was only allowed to operate in the low bass region where the impedance was much to high anyway, thus flattening the impedance peak at resonance and lowering it to a correct level (which provided a less reactive load with less phase shift, thus largely eliminating non-linearity in a cone design).
Also picking up on your comment about the difficulty of achieving coherancy in a 4 way speaker design, Infinity appear to have gone to great lengths to design a unique cabinet and grille which virtually eliminated resonance and diffraction and provided unimpeded and ideal dispersion of the musical signal. If Infinity didn't achieve quite the level of coherency as ML's CLS2, then in a single, conveniently placeable tower, they got bloody close!
Yeah, I was telling Mum the Rens sold for $8000 here way back when & I should land my pair for about $4100 with shipping/fees included, so still a good deal.
Melbguy1
ps: I'll keep a note of your your request to hear the Rens once my system is finally complete. By the end of next year, I plan to add to my existing JVC/Vimak front end with a Reference 3 pre-amp, Ca-2200, AR/Jorma cables, Running Springs filter, SRA platforms & new maple cabinet.. "Phew!" |
