Integrateds: Why do they all SUCK?

I'm sure this doesn't suck.
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/products/integrated-amplifiers/diablo-300.aspx

Cheers George

I doubt this sucks too, and is affordable.    Maybe not enough power for every application but quality like everything they make.

http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/integrated-amplifier/

Sorry no built in phono.....

Here ya go!
http://www.rogueaudio.com/Integratedamps.htm

Croft !
http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/88038/Croft_Acoustics-Phono_Integrated_Amplifier-Integrated_Amplif...

Luxman L-590AX ii.  List price of $8,995.  None better at that price IMO.

Looks like you want the forum members to do the research for you.

Very nasty word plus all caps not nice!!!!!

@ebm +1

Take a look at other posts from the OP. Appears to be his style.

Integrateds: Why do they all SUCK?
Mapleshade Isolation: Does Nothing?
Cartridges: Complete Scam?
Basis Turntables: Worth it or Ripoff? 

I love my integrated amp! I feel like I've finally gotten off the component merry-go-round and have a centerpiece I can use for years to come. I replaced a pre-amp, amp and phono pre-amp with the one box and got rid of two interconnect cables in the deal. I'm very content.....

I love my integrated. It doesn't suck.

Looks like he is new to analogue, me thinks he might need some "learn'n".
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cartridges-complete-scam

You know the original question is so banal that it doesn't even deserve to be answered. Go back under your bridge please.

+1jim.  Don't enable him.

What are your thoughts on Bel Canto c5i?   I have one and think its the bees knees.  

I am done with separates, at least I think so.  I am getting very enjoyable sound from integrated amps.  I see no need to add boxes when an integrated works great for me. 

The Bel Canto doesn't meet his #1 requirement and the Quicksilver doesn't meet #3 (only has an input for a phono stage).

dill,

That’s why I asked for his thoughts. I would reconsider that specific amp design requirement perhaps if needed and just listen to the results delivered to decide. It just might solve the problem. C5i proved to me finally that a small reasonably affordable integrated that uses all the latest technology well CAN now match up to separates. The Bel Canto is dead quiet and the sound, technology and build quality is MOST impressive. BC seems to have found a way to solve the engineering challenges getting top notch sound out of a small integrated amp presents and I believe the use of Class D is an important part of that. I would consider replacing separates (including my ARC tube pre-amp) with the C5i if needed. Not something I would have even considered prior.   The  only drawback is its only 60w/ch which may not be enough in some cases.

Ayre AX-5 Twenty is exquisite, sounds better than all but a handful of separates I've heard. But you have to use an outboard phono stage.

Aside from a few very high end products, the above described integrateds seem not to exist. Why can’t I find a quality integrated? Do we just have to accept having a pile of boxes?

It's an evil scheme by those dastardly expensive boutique cable makers. Those dirty rotters.

few decades back we didn't even know what 'integrated' is. it was just an amplifier and that is it to it.
i believe that pioneer 9800 is all time world champion among just amplifiers.

Well, apart from the bumpy road he's left behind, @madavid0 does make a point.  Many integrateds often serve as the entry level products in a company's amplification lineup.

You can find some truly good sounding solid state offerings from the UK that meet your criteria.  Not surprising, the smaller living spaces push folks toward more compactness in their audio systems.

On the tube side, I and a lot of other people could live with a VAC Avatar for the long haul.  You'll have to search pretty hard to find separates that outdo it.

I could list some other products, but they don't offer a phono stage

Luxman L-590AX ii. List price of $8,995. None better at that price IMO.

My better half wanted a simpler system that was not so intimidating. We went with the Luxman 590AX ii and are enjoying it immensely.  

Integrated amps usually lack the sophisticated preamp circuitry  of a good separate preamp.  That makes a huge difference.  A really good preamp brings a world of sonic improvement to a system.  Some high-priced integrateds, like the Viva Solista, actually do contain high-end preamp circuitry, which is one of the reasons it sounds as good as it does.  

+1 @chayro  I was thinking the same thing.... and I agree with you 100%

Many integrated amps only have passive attenuation, such as voltage divider networks, which i really don't care for. I tried many times to go passive, e.g. with LDRs, transformer-based vol controls, simple attenuators with the best resistors, etc, and ALWAYS found something missing.

I know many of you may disagree with that, and that's cool, just stating why I do not like Integrated amps, based on the above. Give me a quality active preamp in front of an amp any day, any time!

If I ever decide to consolidate all my boxes into one, I'd go for a McIntosh MA9000.

Integrated amps usually lack the sophisticated preamp circuitry of a good separate preamp.

I think you're onto something there. The AX-5 essentially has the KX-R volume control and circuitry. I imagine that has a lot to do with it's superb sound.

@beetlemania,

I agree with you.  You would spend at least twice the price of an AX-5 Twenty to better its performance.  I just went through an fairly exhaustive journey over the last two years.   The Ayre is a game changer for sure.  I didn't mention it since OP wanted and integrated with phono stage.  

i agree with 1markr - if you have a good pre-amp - then the amp can sound great - in my experience a good pre-amp matters more!

Not to belabor the preamp point, but many listeners have no idea what upgrading the preamp does for a system. When I was in my Naim phase, I remember thinking I needed a better amplifier, but upgrading to the next level of preamp brought the power and finesse to the system that I mistakenly thought were attributable to the amplifier. Until you actually experience what a good preamp can do, it's hard to allocate a lot of money towards a bunch of inputs and a volume control.  And that's all cheap preamps are - but good preamps do much more.  And you pay for it.  

Accuphase E-470 with phono option board and DAC option board. Paired with my ATC HTS40's, I can hardly imagine a more refined, sophisticated and musical component.  

One of the biggest problems with integrated amps historically is proximity of internal components, for example, and in particular, noise levels resulting from proximity of a power transformer to the low level pre-amp circuitry and even worse lower level phono circuitry, if that included as well.

Having said that, the Bel Canto C5i digital integrated, about half the size of a shoe box, is perhaps the quietest (and best sounding overall) amplifier I’ve ever owned, quieter perhaps even than the almost $10K worth of separates I use currently in my larger main system. I suspect the fact that it is an all digital amp design contributes to that greatly. I gave it a shot to test the waters with the latest and greatest all digital amp technology and may never look back again. It seems all digital amp technology these days is a game changer!

The new Anthem STR integrated amp looks promising.
Happy Listening!

The OP has already answers his own, once again trolling, question. "Aside from a few very high end products", yes it's expensive to do all those things right. As with many things you get what you pay for.

I went from a Audible Illusions Modulus 3B pre and Odyssey Stratos Extreme stereo amp to a McIntosh MA6600 integrated amp and have never been happier.

If there was no entry level many would have to sneak in, and I'm now far more worried about the exit level. Also, is it me (don't answer that) or am I imagining recent articles in audio mags regarding cool "one box does it all" integrated amps with DACs, streaming, plenty of power, maybe a tube here and there…seems like a world of cool stuff.

Because they are stuffing to much stuff into one box! Ive never liked Integrated amps myself.


Matt M

The Parasound 2.1 integrated give excellent bang for the buck. Everything you need in one place.

MadavidO: This may not meet your exact, but a powerful and amazing Control Amp
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8e1gi-conrad-johnson-ca200-stereo-integrated-amplifier-ca-200-1...

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue32/cj_ca200.htm

I'm surprised that so many members are responding to this stupid question.

That is Totally wrong !!  Pass labs integrated ,
Gryphon Audio,FM Acoustics , Ensemble sudio, Accuphase, 
Mcintosh, Mark Levenson, and there are much more High quality integrated out there.
If you have the money $10k and up retail  they can equal and best many seperates out there, less cables more direct less conversion circuitry up to 90lbs.

Hey everyone.... I’m Neal... first post here. I get the daily emails about the forum and I clicked on this one because I love my Belles Soloist One and thought the question was pretty ridiculous...Looks like a lot of you do too.... anyway, great to be on the forum. Sorry roxy54....I agree with you and I posted anyway.....

Here ya go .. I own one and it's the best amp setup I have ever owned 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkXmGdoIkwU

What's your budget $495 Emerson deluxe ?

I’ve heard good things about the bryston 135B3 integrated, check it out at bryston.com

Back in 1977 I bought an Integrated Pioneer SA 9900 and I got 35 years of joy out it.  It was great design.  All the connections were on the sides and the entire rear end was one big heat sink.  Does anyone know if there were any other integrated's with this engineering??  Also, even though it was rated on in the manuel as 110 watts per channel, a bench tech I know had it kicking ass at 170.  I paired it with a couple of JBL Century's that I bought at the same time.  Those speakers are still going strong but ugly as hell on the outside.

To those who answered, please think twice about encouraging rediculous posts such as this.

Meanwhile, Pavlov is off figuring out another troll of a post.

I’ve got a Audio Note Oto se w/phono and it’s the best amp I’ve ever owned!! Ive had Carver, Dynaco, Phase Linear; BLOWS them away.Never would have believed 10watts could produce such sound! Take into account that I could have never afforded this amp (customer was taking it to goodwill) and there very hard to find AND I had to buy new speakers to meet efficiency requirements. There out there but your gonna pay