Isoacoustics Orea vs Townshend Seismic Pod on Components

@astolfor Thanks for your interesting data. I wonder how much different such measurements would be on hard tile or concrete floors, as opposed to suspended wood? In other words, in theory to benefits of isolation should be smaller on a hard floor, but I wonder if that would be reflected in measurements such as yours.

 

Ordinary springs like Nobsound are more sensitive to loading. They tend to sound full and warm when compressed a lot, thin and extended when not loaded enough.

Very good description, I couldn't agree more.

@astolfor , getting very technical there but rather useful to know the Gaias are more effective than the Oreas with lower figures in the decay. I have the Gaia and Nobsound but do not have experience with the Oreas. The Gaias work well under speakers, ditto Nobsound under components.

As for the Townshend products, I wished I could try them but at their current prices, a bit too rich for me at the moment.

 

Ryder, Vibration control of all kinds whether ordinary plain springs, Nobsound, Townshend or whatever, generally is more effective resting directly under the component chassis than under the foot that comes on the component. Works better, looks better. The loading per spring is what makes the difference in sound, not so much where they are under the component. So you can use 3 or 4, and they can be moved around to balance the load. I use for example 4 Pods under my amp but almost all the weight is transformers in the back. So I have one each back corner, one sort of in the middle, and a 4th center front. 

Ordinary springs like Nobsound are more sensitive to loading. They tend to sound full and warm when compressed a lot, thin and extended when not loaded enough. I think the reason Nobsound vary so much is partly they are short, and this gives them a smaller optimal range, and partly they are not damped, and this gives resonance free reign.

Townshend Pods and Podiums solve both of these shortcomings with a single larger and higher quality (piano wire) spring and bellows air shock damping. Works great, as so many have found.

astralfor, Crest? I think you got the name wrong. There is a Swiss company Credo that imported Townshend Podiums 20 years ago and then copied that old version. If they are 1.8X better than current production Podiums that would be quite the trick seeing as they are knockoffs of an older version of the same thing. Either that or you really like their toothpaste.

@ryder I have been in the USA for a few weeks with not much work to do so I have spent a lot of time measuring different platforms.

The Isoacoustic product i.e. Orea and Gaia provide almost unmeasurable improvement, the $34 for 4 Nobsound are about 3.8 times better, than either of the Isoacoustic products,  the Podiums/Pods are about 18 times better than the Nobsound and the Crest Audio are about 1.8 times better than the podiums.

The big thing with the Crest audio from Switzerland, is that they are not available for all speakers and weights as the Podiums and Pods.

I made sonic measurements using calibrated microphones, REW and laser traces.

When I say better I mean the Isoacoustics products do not do anything of significance to sonically diminish decay, coherency, RT60, RT60 decay, clarity, distortion or impulse in my room with my Kensington speakers and tube amps.

For some reason, this forum software is not liking my links so I can't post pictures of my measurements so you will have to trust me or you can join the Pathos group in Facebook and see a couple of them there.

Some could question the room setup, etc. etc. but this is a black box type of experiment. you input the same sound frequency sweep to the same room, same everything but the isolation mechanisms and measure the difference. 

My house is made of wood and plaster, with hardwood flooring sitting on car-decking (I have no clue what type of wood this is but it is thick and bendy), I believe this is how most homes are built in the US. I would imagine that my home is not much different than most homes in the US.

To say that these type of homes are far from ideal for sound is the biggest understatement I have made in the last few years :) so in theory a great environment to test.

For example. I will average decays because I do not have time to go and type each frequency decay number. 

Spikes for frequencies between 25Hz to 10K the decay average is about 603ms. 

Isoacoustic Orea for frequencies between 25Hz to 10K the decay average is about 561ms

 Isoacoustic Gaia for frequencies between 25Hz to 10K the decay average is about 542ms.

NobSound for frequencies between 25Hz to 10K the decay average is about 389ms.

Podiums for frequencies between 25Hz to 10K the decay average is about 139ms

Without pictures is hard to visualize the decay effects, but imagine a piano note that is supposed to linger for 20ms but lingers for 400ms+ and so on, then the silence disappears and with it the music.   

I am not saying that every room/speaker/isolation mechanism will react the same as mine room, I am just saying that in my environment in the USA with this gear these are the measurable effects of each platform.  

For example my decay in one of the rooms in my home in Spain with spikes is 227ms still a LOT for $100K speakers, but I cant wait until I put some podiums or pods, with the Kensington $20K the decay on spikes is 338ms on the same room as where I have my good speakers. 

I have no affiliation, I get nothing from any of them except the products I pay for as everyone else does. My intent is solely to share my measurements.

I love math!

 

lets see if this works

PS: forget about it.. I clicked the picture icon, entered the google link and nothing shows up...

You can post your own pictures on a site like ImgPile.com (which I use) and then once you've entered a picture/photo, use your right click to copy image address and then paste it into the URL space provided by the image caption above and click on OK to see it and make any adjustments you need to. The rest is self explanatory. Hope that helps.

All the best,
Nonoise

Is there a way to post pictures here ? I can post decay analysis for a couple of my tests.

Back in the day Pontiac had their Sport Tuned Suspension and put a STS badge on the dash.  Now you have a Sound Tuned Suspension. 

Gents,

I have found the best spring configuration after 5 days of experimentation. In brief summary, the Nobsounds have brought an appreciable improvement to my system. They are used on a Class A integrated amp, 4 footers under the component's feet. I have another set of Nobsounds which will be tested with the DAC and pre/power amps in another system in due time.

I initially started with 6 springs on each footer. Due to the unbalanced loading of the amp which caused an uneven compression of the footers (the amp is heavier at the front), I later switched to 5 springs @ front, 4 springs @ rear. For ease of illustration, here’s the configuration I’ve tried in chronological order with their corresponding gap between the top and bottom aluminium alloy pieces;

6 springs @ front and rear (8mm gap)

5 springs @ front ; 4 springs @ rear (7mm gap) = 50% compression

4 springs @ front ; 3 springs @ rear (5mm gap)

3 springs @ front ; 2 springs @ rear (3mm gap)

I was expecting the best result with the smallest gap but that didn’t work for me. I then slowly got back up to 6/5 before finally settling with 5/4 which is the best sounding set up to my ears, in my system. Coincidentally, this configuration gave a 50% compression of the springs.

The sound quality is noticeably different with each spring set up. In brief summary, too many springs (low compression) will produce a sound that is lean and light with reduced bass weight. Too little springs (high compression) reduced the airiness and 3-dimensionality. When it sounds right, you will know it and everything just sounds great.

Impressions as follows;

6 springs @ front ; 5 springs @ rear,

- overall presentation is lean and light with certain hollowness to the sound

- bass weight is reduced as it lacks punch and drive

- slight smearing in the midrange

- percussion sounds soft and lacks bite

 

5 springs @ front ; 4 springs rear (best sound)

- best sound from this set up with the springs at 50% compression

- everything just sounds right as music just flows out freely from the speakers

- notes have more energy with a tube-like quality

- treble sounds airier and has better extension

- improved macrodynamics, airier and 3-dimensional sound with space between instruments

- thwack of drums and percussion all sound snappier and real

- bass weight is back with improved definition and punch

 

4 springs @ front ; 3 springs @ rear

3 springs @ front ; 2 spings @ rear

- reduced airiness and 3-dimensionality as the sound is slightly dull and flat

Thank you.  I have the matching Ref 2SE Phono pre as well.  I have been an ARC user since the late 80s.  I try not to chase the wind.  I enjoyed my last ARC preamp for 18 years.  I'm very fortunate to have these preamps.  

I find the Nobsounds to be effective isolators.  I'm using large springs on my speakers and amplifiers.  I bought some 1.5" OD 57 lbf/in springs from McMaster Carr for these heavy weight components.

Audio Research Ref 5SE. Nice.

Similarly I didn’t want to place the Nobsounds in direct contact with the chassis so I put them directly under the heavy duty cast-iron feet of the component. Due to the nature of the rack I can’t introduce an additional board between the feet of the component and Nobsound footers. My amp also has unbalanced loading, compensated by reducing the number of springs at location where the load is lighter.

My preamps are unbalanced due to the heavy transformers mounted to one side. So I set them on inert boards and then the boards are placed on the isolation feet. You can’t see it from the picture but the rear feet are positioned inboard to even out the loading. This way I still have the rubber feet on the component in use. I didn’t want to put the springs in direct contact with the chassis. Based on my accelerometer measurements the isolation this way is just as effective as having the feet directly under the rubber feet of the preamp.

I appreciate the advice. It makes sense to stay with fewer springs.

I’d say stay with fewer springs.  That keeps the resonance point as low as possible.    The difference in gaps doesn’t matter.  This is static loading.  The only time the springs move is when you put your hands on the component.  As long as a gap remains once you let go the component is isolated. 

I am able to use a single spring per foot.  Measured resonance is about 4 Hz.

 

Tonywinga, thanks for the advice. I just read your message after I posted mine above. Will reduce the springs in due time. Yes, you are correct the optimal set up is to have the two metal ends almost touching each other. 1 to 3 mm is the recommended gap between the metal ends which is very small.

Thanks Whipsaw. Short version. Just marvellous. The Nobsound was supposed to be used with the Naim pre/power in the 2nd system. I wasn’t expecting much from the Nobsound when they were installed in the main system since the components are already supported on a good rack with isolation feet.

The sound quality has improved after a set was installed on the amp. I have another set which I will try on the DAC later.

Good times ahead. Most importantly these things work. I will post more impressions after few days.

The current set up, front 2 footers have 5 springs each while rear 2 footers have 4 springs each. The gap at each footer is approximately 7-8 mm (Gap without load is 15 mm). I read somewhere that the optimal gap with the Solid Tech footers is 1-3 mm. The design of the Nobsound is based on the Solid Tech so the current compression of the springs in my set up is not optimal. I will need to reduce one more spring from each footer to reduce the gap.

 

@Ryder

Take out as many springs per foot as you can without the two metal ends touching. The fewer the springs the lower the resonance point and better the isolation.

 

And there we have it Dear Readers .... MC looses not a second to accuse any and all respondents who do not agree with his mantra whilst ***Pushing*** Townshend products in crying Foul , Snake Oil hater , Incapable of thinking or Understanding for oneself, Spoiler etc etc etc and yet he is the first to behave in exactly this way the second a product is mentioned that competes in any way with Townshend !!!

Oh The Hypocrisy 🙄 

Looks good, @ryder !

Do let us know of your impressions of the Nobu, after you've had some time to listen.

 

 

Thanks all for the responses. I've ordered the Nobsound. They will be used on the amps as I don't use subs.

The Townshend Pods are a bit rich for me with their premium prices. Perhaps next time.

I bought the Iso and the Nobsound. The Nobsound are under my amp and the Iso are packed up with the return shipping label in the back of my car. I tried the Nobsound under my sub and the results were interesting. I actually had to turn the sub up a little but the bass was better. Less resonance.

Interesting thanks....

Here is my experience.

I used the Isoacoustics Orea Bordeaux and Indigo and did not make much difference if any at all. Now, if you really want to isolate use the Seismic Isolation Pods from Townshend. IMHO way better by a long shot. I did a simple the test the Pods, Orea and no Isolation. I have an unipivot tonearm in one of my tables. I put the table on top of the Orea, played a record, then I tapped the shelf with 20gr pendulum, the sub extended 1.23 inches, then I put the table on top of the pods and repeated the the experiment, and the sub extended 0.21 inches, without isolation the sub extended 1.24 inches. The reason I did use this method was an attempt to take all the subjectivity out of the equation. Yes the Pods are more expensive, but they work. I repeated the test 4 times and these are the averages. The Nobsound pucks did a much better job than the Isoacoustics too, the only "problem" with the Nobsound is that you need to figure out how many pucks and springs, but once you dial it in, then they land at 0.86 of an inch of extension.

 

I used laser range traces to measure the extentisions.

 

The Nobsound springs arrived yesterday and I put them under my Audio Note Cobra. This amp has been sitting on an Ethan Allen wooden cabinet, beautiful, but not an audiophile accessory. The change is pretty dramatic- more dimension, better focus, just more of a "right" spacious feel to things. I’ll do some blind tests over the next few days if the family is up for it. I should be getting the Oreas today but don’t know if we will have power back in our region from the storm today.

 

May I ask if there’s any update on the Nobsound springs vs Isoacoustics Oreas on the Audio Note Cobra? Did you use all 4 Nobsound units on the Cobra and how many springs are installed on each Nobsound unit? I checked the weight of the Cobra and it’s 13.6 kg which isn’t too heavy.

Hi Robert.
You brought up an important subject. The equipment rack in my main system is Finite Elemente Spider with Ceraball Spider feet at each supporting level and Cerabase footers at the bottom of the 4 pillars. The equipment rack in my 2nd system is a cheaper 4-tier design without any isolation enhancement. At some point in the future I will likely replace the standard spikes of the rack with some isolators, perhaps the Isoacoustics Gaia.

Not really my place here, but would like to bring a few thoughts into the conversation.

Regardless of the good, better, or best performance from a footer, a large percentage of what you are experiencing with any type of footer, especially those located under electronic components; the principal equipment rack or speaker plinths totally affects their sonic outcome and your decision making.

Everyone forgets or never realizes that the equipment rack is the core component - the heart of every system. 

The rack governs every purchase you make from now or until you decide to audition and purchase a racking system capable of higher performance.

Unfortunately, for most audiophiles, this is the least discussed piece of equipment in the system.

I would love to hear more about the rack brand, construction, or materials used when discussing footers, accessories, and sonic opinions.

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Reading the finicky setup of the Nobsound, in my limited experience this applies to the Isoacoustics Gaia too but perhaps to a lesser extent. Most people will just take things for granted, setting up the footers and then expect them to work well with the first installation with the assumption that everything is done correctly. When I first installed the Gaias on my speakers, I nearly threw in the towel after they made the sound worse, thinking that I must be a victim of another overhyped product. Fortunately, after few adjustments to the Gaias to get them more evenly loaded, they have now performed to expectations.

If you get a poor result, the blame is usually on the product when it can be just a case of poor or incorrect set up, or something else. It’s not always the case but worth mentioning.

Nice fix for your problem. It shows that it pays to keep at it.

As for the Nobsound, there’s this negative take on this product,

Interesting, the reviewer noted some of the negatives I noticed with those footers too. (E.g. a bit too recessed in the lower mids, lost richness).

i read his review and observed AT FIRST LISTENING the exact same negative thing aboout mid range and bass...

But instead of writing a review i decide to think... 😁😊 ( i dont write and will never write review anyway)




And i observed immediately that loading the speakers with a damping fine tuned mass i gain more positive results...

And after that i bought a second set of 4 boxes for each speaker and i put them on top of the speaker UNDER the damping fine tuned mass of concrete...Decreasing some resonance from the speakers box doing so....

Now : High perfect and airay, mids like flowing lava, and bass clear and punchy...

Listrening WITHOUT experimenting is without any value...Many reviewers do that and people buy their negative or positive hype...


Before UPGRADING or REVIEWING we must try to embed MECHANICALLY in this case in the rightful way what we are listening to by experimenting with it ...



But at the end of his article  THIS REVIEWER suggest to damp the springs itself.... A good idea i keep in mind for myself to try... That improved the sound quality.... Then this reviewer is a good one indeed... But it is not often like that...

I noticed that as well but forgot to mention it when I read your post. 
Once is chance, twice is coincidence, third time is a pattern. 👍

As for the Nobsound, there's this negative take on this product,

Interesting, the reviewer noted some of the negatives I noticed with those footers too. (E.g. a bit too recessed in the lower mids, lost richness).

millercarbon,
I don’t know about the silly descriptions that you pointed out, but these things really work. They allow the supported component to shine into such a relaxed sound.

They also have one of the weirdest break in effects that I have encountered. It takes about 1+ week to stabilize. During this time the sound will go from out of phase sounding, to bright, then dark. A footer needs to break in? Yes, it does, I think it is because it adjusts to the weight imposed on it.
And, I am told that just moving them will cause a disruption in sound quality for a while. Set them up and forget it.

I would be interested in knowing what they are made of...

ozzy

Springs isolate.  Rubber dampens vibrations. 

⬆️ This reads like a pamphlet for a singles cruise in the 80’s.

No idea how they work Ozzy but the ad copy on their website is some of the silliest most impermeable word salad I've seen this side of Machina Dynamica. To wit:

Gain, relative permittivity and the efficiency of electrical devices can be expressed as dimensionless numbers. 

Dimensionless numbers. Check.

For a moment, think of electricity as dimensionless energy moving through 3 dimensional pathways

Dimensionless energy. Check. But- wait a minute! It is moving through dimensions?!?! Nevermind. We got ad copy to fill!

When vibration is introduced into the atmosphere at the front baffle of the loudspeakers, vibration becomes a 3-dimensional form of energy that can only dissipate by permeating into 3-dimensional objects causing an unnaturally high state of mechanical excitation to occur within them; 

Uh, what?

the objects vibrate. 

Oh. Why not just say so then?

They will continue to vibrate when music is playing and eventually establish a relatively constant state of unnaturally high equilibrium that is well known to degrade the performance of audio components.

How can equilibrium be unnaturally high? If it's high wouldn't that be disequilibrium? Nevermind!

It might be more appropriate to view Center Stage2 as a catalyst in a complex energy reaction that occurs between your equipment and its environment. 

Um, doesn't a catalyst catalyze? That is, make things go faster? So it accelerates energy interactions then? Nevermind. Ad copy!

While this amount of kinetic and vibration energy is relatively small, the sonic consequences can be very large if these energies are unregulated and undamped. 

So is it a catalyst? Or a damper? Because these are opposite and mutually exclusive, ya know?

Center Stage2 is a catalyst 

So not a damper then.

designed to change the prevailing state of equilibrium in that energy reaction and to permanently hold it in a reduced or damped state. 

Oh wait now it is a damper! And also creates disequilibrium!

Center Stage2 is different and better because it uses novel applications in material science to achieve its isolation and damping benefits. 

And catalyzing? What happened to catalyst?

Your components will now immerse you in a sonic environment that has been described as a unified acoustic field. That’s why we think our product is aptly named when we describe the listener experience as being “Center Stage”.

So now it does speaker placement too? I give up. Granted there is always the chance it works and they just prefer a deliberately nonsensical marketing narrative. Let's hope so!

After trying many of the items mentioned, I decided to bite the bullet and invest in the best. I am using Critical Mass Footers 2 under my Dac, Amps and power conditioner.

ozzy

Thanks for the update. Would be interested to know how the Oreas would compare to the Nobsound once power is restored.

The Nobsound springs arrived yesterday and I put them under my Audio Note Cobra. This amp has been sitting on an Ethan Allen wooden cabinet, beautiful, but not an audiophile accessory. The change is pretty dramatic- more dimension, better focus, just more of a "right" spacious feel to things. I'll do some blind tests over the next few days if the family is up for it. I should be getting the Oreas today but don't know if we will have power back in our region from the storm today.