Spendor broacher advertising shows their speakers facing directly forward while their Frequently Asked Questions shows toe in aimed at each ear at the listening position which appears to be a very slight isosceles triangle.
Using a familiar or proper recording I'd begin with the manufacturers triangle instructions. Moving a wheeled office chair slowly nearer and farther after any location adjustment may offer you some insight in determining the staging.
My speakers were designed for wide forward facing. Using an approximation of the golden thirds speaker and listening positioning has yield massive staging and acoustical speaker disappearance in my very reflective room.
You could hire an experienced dealer to do the setup. Best of luck with it.
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Personally, I would never purchase speakers that were recommended or required to be toed in.
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Why?
Because of the Soundstage, to include every system I’ve owned, plus the live venue’s I’ve attended over the last 55 years. The only speakers I have toed in are studio monitors on stands for near field computer generated audio.
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@mahgister I didn't read your manifesto but I hope he isn't just suffering from bad reflections. I did address that in my original post. --Jerry
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Buy a dozen 6' artificial ficus trees and place a couple behind the speakers, between the speakers, nest to the speakers to diffuse wall reflections behind your listening position and int he corners behind the speakers. Last I looked these artificial trees were $40 each at the At Home store.
These artificial ficus trees act as very effective diffusers. They are easily moved and can help "fix" a room.
You can add more (I'm up to around 18).
That's a start, and a LOT cheaper than audiophile room treatment.
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It is easy to hear bad reflection because too great amount or bad timing between them...
Acoustic is really about how to train our ears....it takes only time, no money....
And i used also re- configuration of pressures zones of the room with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers..Very powerful....
@mahgister I didn’t read your manifesto but I hope he isn’t just suffering from bad reflections. I did address that in my original post. --Jerry
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Laps... There are many fine full-range speakers which require toe-in for optimal SQ according to designer’s instructions. Off the top of my head, Audio Note, Devore, Klipsch. Devore also recommends raking the speakers.
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Components and diffusor and Diffuser/absorber room treatment.
One of my rooms.....
Omni speakers....
Diffusors......
Diffuser/absorbers for 1st reflection points
(Previously used for direct radiators but still are magical)
Vaulted ceilings...
Panoramic yet convincingly real and live recordings are simply incredible.
1200 dollar system sounds like 12k or better.
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I believe you...
I live the same experience in my own way...
Components and diffusor and Diffuser/absorber room treatment.
One of my rooms.....
Omni speakers....
Diffusors......
Diffuser/absorbers for 1st reflection points
(Previously used for direct radiators but still are magical)
Vaulted ceilings...
Panoramic yet convincingly real and live recordings are simply incredible.
1200 dollar system sounds like 12k or better.
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I don’t feel it’s appropriate to think of room reflections as distortion. Ideally they add something nice to the listening experience. Our brain is very adept at discerning the original signal from a reflection most of the time, so distortion in equipment will generally have a more damaging effect to our listening pleasure than a room reflection, although in some cases reflections can sound very bad and ruin the sound quality. Stereo imaging is already messed up in a simple 2 channel configuration due to immediate crosstalk from the speakers reaching both ears. This is probably why most people don't enjoy 2 channel audio in an anechoic space, while more channels with a good mix can sound very good. With just 2 channels it can be argued that we really need some appropriate reflections to smooth out the otherwise intense crosstalk comb filtering created when 2 channels are playing the same thing to create a center image. I can relate to rrm’s frustration and have had to strike a balance between imaging precision and a more enveloping and spacious experience. My speakers are fairly narrow in their dispersion above 600Hz and that makes for very little of the beyond the speaker experience, except with that Roger Waters stuff, and at least one Madonna album I heard. There’s more than just getting that effect though. Listening to a wider dispersion speaker with great off axis smoothness that my co-worker brought in to the office, I was beguiled by the life and vividness it added to have more early reflections informing my ears. Sounds seem to hang in the air around the speakers like halos. Honestly I don’t get the effect of live acoustic instruments ever doing that but I like it! It comes at the expense of a very shimmery high end that could get fatiguing, like looking at sparklers for too long. They’re pretty but they’ll burn a hole in your retina. Still, I’m tempted to re-do my mid and high horns for a bit wider dispersion to add a little zest.
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Very great informative and on the spot post... Thanks....
I think the same and my experience corroborate your impression about acoustic even if our system/room are different... ...
I don’t feel it’s appropriate to think of room reflections as distortion. Ideally they add something nice to the listening experience. Our brain is very adept at discerning the original signal from a reflection most of the time, so distortion in equipment will generally have a more damaging effect to our listening pleasure than a room reflection, although in some cases reflections can sound very bad and ruin the sound quality. Stereo imaging is already messed up in a simple 2 channel configuration due to immediate crosstalk from the speakers reaching both ears. This is probably why most people don't enjoy 2 channel audio in an anechoic space, while more channels with a good mix can sound very good. With just 2 channels it can be argued that we really need some appropriate reflections to smooth out the otherwise intense crosstalk comb filtering created when 2 channels are playing the same thing to create a center image. I can relate to rrm’s frustration and have had to strike a balance between imaging precision and a more enveloping and spacious experience. My speakers are fairly narrow in their dispersion above 600Hz and that makes for very little of the beyond the speaker experience, except with that Roger Waters stuff, and at least one Madonna album I heard. There’s more than just getting that effect though. Listening to a wider dispersion speaker with great off axis smoothness that my co-worker brought in to the office, I was beguiled by the life and vividness it added to have more early reflections informing my ears. Sounds seem to hang in the air around the speakers like halos. Honestly I don’t get the effect of live acoustic instruments ever doing that but I like it! It comes at the expense of a very shimmery high end that could get fatiguing, like looking at sparklers for too long. They’re pretty but they’ll burn a hole in your retina. Still, I’m tempted to re-do my mid and high horns for a bit wider dispersion to add a little zest.
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Treat your room.
Yes but treating a room with passive absorbing or rflective surfaces or difusive one, is not the same thing as controlling the room mechanically...
Thats the point of my posts...
passive treatment is necessary and also some mechanical control with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers...
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I had serious issues with my soundstage and imaging.
But it appears to be caused by hash or noise in my high treble.
These issues were solved by the addition of what are known as Zobel networks plugged into the binding posts of my speakers. In my case, those are the treble ones of the two pair. There is a fellow on AG who has built these: Deulund-Mundorf Speaker Purifiers. I think these can be built using those caps and resistors with a heat sink. Although the component values are custom made for the Ohm rating of your speakers. They do not interfere with the built in speaker crossovers since they only effect HF 12K Hz and above.
I had thought that my speaker placement or room were to blame. Not the case!
Now after about 150 hours of break in for the caps, imaging is pinpoint and the soundstage is wide and deep. I guess it’s like getting a pair of highly upgraded tweeters. It is clear that the former HFs were “dirty”. To “purify” is the key.
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To “purify” is the key.
There exist three embeddings dimensions to control: electricial one is only one...
Vibrations/resonance negative effect of the gear is hugely underestimated too...
Vibrations mechanical control is a key...I know you know it well using springs like me...it is a transformative move to control vibrations...
But acoustic is the last and more important key and more complex to get it right than the other 2....And hugely more impactful for all acoustic cues...
But no embedings control alone , be it mechanical, electrical or acoustical can replace the other 2...None.... Acoustic control cannot decrease the negative effect of the speakers vibrations for example ...
Then there exist three keys...
But trust me acoustic is the more impactful for sound perception ....
My best to you....
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Treat your room.
Suppress early reflections more, or find a way to enhance them?
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Reflections must not be suppressed completely OR enhanced over absorption ...
They must be USED in some RATIO and some TIMING....balance between reflections, absortion and diffusion in a specfic room is the key....
Lateral reflections and back reflections especially...
Why my soundscape is so good otherwise?
My dac brand name alleged quality?
No....
My speakers brand name alleged design ?
No....
My amplifier brand name miraculous power?
No ....
Basic acoustic and psycho-acoustic knowledge and experiments...Yes....
😁😊
Suppress early reflections more, or find a way to enhance them?
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Reflections must not be suppressed completely OR enhanced over absorption ...
Yes, like in a concert hall. Too many audiophiles have over damped rooms.
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@mglik
How did you diagnose the problem and decide to use a Zobel network? I've seen the Deulund-Mundorf Speaker Purifiers for sale.
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I dream of a dedicated audio room.
I dream of obtaining a 3D enhancer BAACH dsp crosstalk cancelling component. Reviews extremely positive
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The best way to investigate this is buy a couple of good absorptive panels (a pair of the ATS 2 inch deep, 24x36 panels off Amazon), hang them on the wall at the first reflection points and see what happens. I’m betting your imaging improves dramatically. It’s not an expensive experiment and can be reversed very easily.
Brad
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Buy Magneplaners. Have an expert set them up IN YOUR ROOM.
If they do not give you what you are seeking, I have no further suggestions other than change your hardware or sources.
Cheers!
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I hope you find a solution with toe in. I have Spendor speakers also. Big SP100's. And I am obsessed with getting imaging outside of the side of the speakers. When set up just right (as they are presently, with toe in directly at my ears) they not only throw images outside of the sides of the speakers but almost wrap around my listening chair. Of course this requires a recording that will do this. For example,Blue Note Jazz records never do this in my system. But try Kruder & Dorfmeister - DJ-Kicks - High Noon found on Youtube. Even on my Bose computer speakers the imaging is way outside the speakers.
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Just read an interesting about extreme toe in, I tried it; aimed the left channel to the extreme right of my listening area and vice versa. You can use a laser measuring device to really dial it in. I'm still on the fence about it; the only problem I "see' doing this is that I'll have to get a bigger chair/couch😁
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The Zobel networks are the simple and super effective fix. I could have never imagined. But now every record is a concert with the musicians standing realistically across a vivid soundstage. On AG they are called Deulund-Mundorf Ultra Speaker Purifiers.
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OP here, thanks to suggestions offered here I tried the following:
1. move chair closer to speakers to form an equilateral triangle rather than isoceles and turn the speakers to straight ahead position. result- a wider soundstage!!!
But I cant leave well alone , so
2. toe the speakers in so that they point right at my head. Result- soundstage shrank towards center but gained depth and instruments &voices seemed more focused. Also noticed that some upper frequency hash was reduced which altered the tonal balance down a bit.
Which did I choose? I 'm not telling. Maybe I will go halfway...maybe not!
I always thought I had got my speaker placement right years ago but I have learned it pays to experiment
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