In-phase signals will appear between your two speakers. Out of phase signals will appear outside the speakers. Speaker placement can cause 1st reflection points to create bounce off walls etc and this can/will create a sense of a wider sound stage, however it comes with some expense, i.e. resolution, and tonal changes. Some folks like this, some folks aren't aware of the difference (or care).
In a well set up system you should not hear sound from beyond the outside of the speakers unless it is in the recording.
|
Check to see if your preamp or other component inverts polarity. If so you would need to swap the pos and neg leads on your speakers.
How close are your speakers to the front wall? Moving them forward can improve imaging. And using absorbion and diffusion in key areas will improve image, soundstage, and SQ.
My system presents a focused 3D image between the speakers and the soundstage extends beyond the speakers. This can be achieved with proper setup and of course, component selection.
|
Treat the sides of the room.
|
Many well recorded albums in classical and jazz are able to give, if the room is well treated and especially mechanically controlled, an imaging and a soundstage outside of the speakers alignment vertical plane, back/front and outside of the speakers to the left and right in many cases...
In some recording the soundstage is oriented more in the front/back direction outside of the speakers vertical plane , in some others recording more in the left /right direction and outside of the speakers vertical plane also.. In many case it is a mix of these two....My soundstage is NEVER between the speakers only, save for mono recording...
My system value is 500 bucks but well chosen... 😁😊The reason why my S.Q. is so good is acoustic mechanical control and passive treatment...Not out of phase phenomenon nor distorted reflections in my case ... 😁😊
In some very good recording the sound even come from my back and behind the speakers and all around me AT THE SAME TIME....This recording for example , you can see the singer walking AROUND you and turning their head singing...:
By the way the more satisfying acoustical factor after naturalness of timbre to enjoy and have it right is not merely imaging and soundstage but LISTENER ENVELOPMENT, the sensation of INTIMACY there is in headphone and the sensation by the listener to be included in the sound source, this sensation is possible if we control the timing between lateral reflections and back and front reflection amount and timing...
Acoustic and control of timing between lateral reflections but also back/front reflections proportion between what is aborbed and diffused is the key...
And advice: dont upgrade to costlier components to reach a bigger soundstage...
The gear is not the main cause of the lack of soundstage and imaging most of the times but defect in acoustic treatment and control...
Never upgrade BEFORE acoustic studies and embedding control and passive treatment done right...You will be astounded by the unknown potential of what you already own is able to reach and do...
No more upgrades for me and no more of my 7 headphones, because my 500 bucks system is enough anyway and beat them all on all count even intimacy....
It is useless to name the brand of my gear and boasting about them, because the main reason of my S.Q. is ACOUSTIC and basic psycho-acoustic knowledge...
But it is mere trivial and common place fact that we cannot enjoy an acoustical factor which is not in the recording to begin with, that goes without saying ... 😁😊
It is less common knowledge that you cannot enjoy an acoustical factor which is in the recording BUT cannot be listen to because of a bad room acoustic treatment and control...People often attribute ERRONEOUSLY this experience, or lack of, to a piece of gear and throw their money in a not so usefull costly upgrade.instead of experimenting with acoustic...
More easy to pay and plug than to think ,Alas!
|
Ultimately I think it is recording dependent. I've heard tracks extend beyond the speaker boundaries, so my system is capable of it. Most tracks are within the speaker boundaries, however.
|
In my experience, it is a combination of three things that have been mentioned. Recording,speaker placement,and acoustic treatment. However, as important as these things are,for me,speaker placement was the most important factor.
|
Each room has a geometry, a form and a size, and a topology : some openings like doors and windows, and each room has an acoustic content with various properties: a wood furniture dont work acoustically like a rug or a piles of books etc...
Speakers placement so important it is , is secondary to mechanical room control...
Because you can modify the room pressure zone distribution for example with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers and compensate for the geometry and topology of the room and for his acoustic content and even compensate for the speakers needs and the room itself, all of which problems can never be solved by repeating the common place fact about the importance of speakers placement...
Speaker placement is not enough, it is only the FIRST step, the second is passive treatment, and third and the most important for small room , mechanical control....
However, as important as these things are,for me,speaker placement was the most important factor.
|
Typically a major factor is the toe in of the speakers and distance between them. Certainly it is speaker dependent. Assuming a good stereo recording.
Are your speakers in an equilateral triable with you seat. How big is that triangle? If too big it can’t support a stable central image. Then start with you speakers pointed to cross 18” behind your head. Then slowly decrease the angle… at some point they should maintain a good central image and the sound field beyond speakers.
My speakers are known for their ability to disappear. But they did not at first. Toe in was to be behind my head. But turned out to work with no toe in.
Also speaker distance from wall (also effects image depth)
Too much reflection from behind speakers.
|
|
I remember a member saying in a well acoustically treated room the speakers should not require any toe-in regardless of their design. My setup proves he was dead on correct.
|
|
|
rrm, it is not you that have the a problem. It is everybody else. A well set up system will not image beyond it's speakers with normal program sources. Some engineers will do tricks with phasing and delays to throw images beyond the speakers for special effect like Roger Waters's Amused to Death album. If a system is imaging beyond it's speaker it is because reflections in the room are smearing the image that way. It is an indication that more control over room acoustics is indicated.
If you want a wider sound stage either move your speakers a little further apart or move your listening position in closer. If you like a big life size image buy line source speakers like Magnepans or Sound Labs.
|
As others have said, placement/positioning of speakers along with the recording and how much out-of-phase information is contained on it are key almost regardless of speaker design. Most of the music in my system occurs between the speakers with lots of depth and 3D soundstage, but I’ve got an Opus 3 recording where a good amount of the music extends 6’ outside the speakers. I think Roger Waters’ Amused to Death CD also incorporates a good amount of those techniques. Bottom line — if you’re happy with what’s happening between the speakers I wouldn’t much worry about it. But, pulling the speakers out more and reducing toe-in might help, AND ITS FREE! How many things in this hobby can you say that about? Best of luck.
|
That speak a lot about your room and system relation...
Then all my soundstage/imaging/listener envelopment effect are distortions?
Phasing errors?
Half of my recorded albums at LEAST and more present sound outside of the back/front and left /right vertical plane between the speakers, and sometimes the two together and in some case even behind my back or beside my ears like in headphone ?
It is way more probable that your room /system is not up to the task by your own ignorance of room acoustic settings than by my own wrongdoing ? 😁😊
Invoking phase discrepencies to explain a COHERENT acoustical wotking in my room is ridiculous...
Think about your own room/system. defect....I can help you.... Disconnect your equalizer and open your ears....
A well set up system will not image beyond it's speakers with normal program sources.
|
Well,I guess I like the distortion that causes the illusion of expanded soundstage. I have no problem with that.
|
Mahgister, What a rude post!
Who really knows what you hear in your room besides yourself and I fail to see anything in soix’s post that comments on you or your subjective beliefs. Some of what you have set forth in this thread and some others I’ve read makes good sense, but much of what you have said is so lacking in specifics as to make your post(s) incomprehensible. Clearly what soix has said is correct. You should research this subject more carefully and not just rely on your empirical conclusions and fire off such a self aggrandizing post.
|
For experimental sake just move your listening chair forward until you get the soundstage you are looking for. From that position optimize your speakers forward and back from the front wall. As the speaker move forward the stage should improve but at the expense of bass. Now move back and do the same thing again except move the speakers wider. You’ll finally get to a point that you start to lose the sound stage by just optimizing the placement in your room.
After you’ve reached the best it can be in your room you can start with acoustic enhancements. Simple things like throwing a blanket over your flat screen makes a difference after you’ve optimized the room. There are lots of articles on the interweb about how to determine room interaction but for me without optimization it's hard to determine what acoustic enhancements are actually doing.
Both my ¢s so take it for what it’s worth
|
|
99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker. That's just physics. There could be room reflections causing the appearance of sounds outside the speakers but that would be unfortunate. As mentioned, using out of phase recordings can cause a sound to appear outside the speaker span.
Roger Waters amused to death has a few such recordings. Try listening to that ans you should hear some sounds outside the span of the speakers.
Jerry
|
99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker. That's just physics. There could be room reflections causing the appearance of sounds outside the speakers but that would be unfortunate. As mentioned, using out of phase recordings can cause a sound to appear outside the speaker span.
Amazing that physics is not the same in 2 rooms....or perhaps physical acoustic is one thing and psycho-acoustic is another field you must consider to exist....
The timing of reflections is one of the acoustic factors with which the Ears/Brain translated sound impressions INTO standing objects located in space in the room...The distribution of the different pressure zones is another one...
The correlation between the direct TWO distinct wavefronts coming from each speaker for EACH TWO ears with a time delay and the back and lateral reflections frontwaves timing is what i used to create in my room the intimate headphone effect of a sound out of my head but incorporating me in the soundscape...(i use Helmhotz diffusers and resonators,ionizers,Schuman generators grid, and a double screen panels with many acoustic devices on it to reflect , absorb or diffuse sound in some balance....
Perhaps you must add psycho-acoustic to physical acoustic in your scientific reading agenda...
Sound waves are not ONLY "rays" coming apart from one another on or from the walls , they are also different zone pressures competing with each others.... The dynamic geography of these pressuures zones and the tiiming of reflections in this geography, determined what i listen to and interpret to be a musical instrument standing at my left or right, OUTSIDE of the speakers vertical plane location...In my room at least.... 😁😊
It is not a mere distortion, a trick coming from out of phase speakers that explain the soundscape appareance, which is NOT an illusion by the way , but a phenomenon emerging from the way the ears/brain read and interpret the speakers/room relation through the recorded information transformed in the waves of sound and ALSO the way the ears/brain read and interpret the recorded acoustic relation of the musical event play back through the room /speakers relation ....it is a double interactive acoustic event: the acoustic of the recorded album with the acoustic of your room .....
The best way for your room to disapear and let the musical playback be optimal is after being put UNDER acoustic control...If not, the recorded event will not be acoustically optimal and will stay a 2-D not differentiated object between the speakers and not a multiplicity of 3-D standing objects or musical instruments around you outside the speakers in most well recorded modern album....
The depth of the sound is not only described as imaging and soundstage in acoustic but also in the " listener envelopment " factor....
99.9% of music should appear between or at the speaker. That’s just physics.
|
rrm, I've been giving some thought to things that you might do to 'improve' your soundstage, but nothing I've come up with can create the outside of your speakers soundstage which you initially indicated that you wanted to obtain. Others have discussed set up of speakers and listening position. I believe someone mentioned the Cardas system which is a good place to start, if you haven't already got a good placement of speakers and listening position determined.
For consideration is an add on devise that has been around for a few years and has gotten good reviews. It is a Fusion FOZ. It is tubed unit which allows you to control the out of out of phase information in your recording. In older recordings (and some new ones as well) which seem to have a too centered image, albeit still stereo, by increasing the strength of the out of phase signal in mix in the recording you can get a much expanded soundstage. Wider/higher/fuller. BUT it will not create sound outside of your speakers on the plane of the speakers, but can easily fill the wall behind you speakers. The good news - it is not expensive and it sort of acts as a tubed buffer (if you want one). The bad news is it is not exceptionally transparent and works best, I think, in a tape loop. Further, by increasing the out of phase signal you do reduce some of the in phase specificity. It has a bass control as well if you need it. The unit is a bit bass rich and you might. Underwoodwally sells them if your interested. They are relatively cheap. Something to think about....or not. :-)
|
I erred. First time this month! :-) Its a FOZ by Black Ice not Fusion
|
mahgister: Bro,try dusting your equipment before publishing videos, it might improve the imaging.
|
If you put enough reflective plates at different angles around the room, the sound will bounce all over the place.
|
Acoustic in the perspective of the passive material treatment a problem about the optimizing BALANCE between reflection, absorbtion and diffusion ratio...
And yes we can use some amount of reflection at the right spot to create an ACCURATE and BETTER soundscape....
Characterizing all reflections to be a bad outcome in a room is meaningless...
Too much absorption is bad, too much diffusion is bad also...
In a small room using positively the lateral and back refrlections is the way to create "listener envelopment" factor....
It is not my opinion here, pure acoustic science....
If you want research articles proof ask me...
If you put enough reflective plates at different angles around the room, the sound will bounce all over the place.
|
This is an excerpt by Robert E. Greene from an essay he wrote for The Absolute Sound.
For decades, it has become a fashionable matter to worry about “soundstage,” but this has reached the point that recordings are expected to have a soundstage almost independently of what the recording is—to expect the soundstage to be a property of the playback system rather than reproducing what is recorded. To my mind, this is a matter of using reflections off the walls, especially the first reflections off the sidewalls, to generate an artificial sense of space. People may like this but it is not really reproducing the recording. And the impression is very unstable in detail because it is not really there on the recording. (Some recordings actually have outside-the- speaker images because of phase effects from spaced microphones, but most recordings do not have this in any systematic way). Because of the instability, the idea has arisen that all kinds of things that really have no reason to be part of the reproduction of space at all can be evaluated according to their effect on soundstage, with enlargement being always regarded as better.
If you're truly interested in stereo microphone recording techniques.
|
There is three acoustic events :
The original acoustic possible event of a listening spectator location choice...
The recorded event by trade-off choices of the recording engineer...
Your own room ability to deliver a soundscape...
There is no REPRODUCTION of a recording IN YOUR ROOM; the cd or the vinyl concrete matter are a reproduction of the acoustical cues choice of the recording engineer yes... ...
but only EXIST for our EARS an acoustic TRANSLATION from these 3 acoustic situations...
And in acoustic science using wisely lateral reflections but more so the back front reflections ratio in a small room, is the way to create an important acoustical experience in our room like in a theater: LISTENER ENVELOPMENT FACTOR...
This "listener envelopment factor" abbreviated by the acronym LEV in acoustic books is a HIGHLY desirable experience with any system/room...I put a link to a thesis in acoustic in my post above explaining that...
The LEV give me the intimate relation with the music like with an headphone but out of my head...Not a mere soundscape between the speakers hell no! thanks!
it seems my relative good sound TRANSLATION is not the "absolute" sound reproduction.of mr Greene..
i will repeat myself: there is no ideal reproduction of a lived event ONLY a translation by acoustic laws and acoustic choices....
People opposing that dont know acoustic and are gear fetichist...
Perhaps the gear engineer rightfully dream to reproduce the sound picked by the recording engineer thanks to them for their art, but the speakers/room relation TRANSLATE the recorded sound CUES with the help of the room sound cues...This new art is acoustic and psycho-acoustic...
😁😊
To my mind, this is a matter of using reflections off the walls, especially the first reflections off the sidewalls, to generate an artificial sense of space. People may like this but it is not really reproducing the recording.
|
@onhwy61
Good quote. I respect Robert’s opinion a great deal.
|
You might want to use the following youtube clip for testing, which I believe is a good recording. Set up your speakers placement according to the actual stage and see if the SS within or beyond the speakers. Also close your eyes to feel the depth of the SS and how well each instrument is separated. In my living room where the side walls are not closed by, the SS created by my system is indeed wider than speakers and I could pinpoint the position of each performer. You need to move the speakers away from front wall to acquire the SS depth. You could also turn the speakers with slight toe-in angles to improve the images but not too much to affect the SS width.
|
Half of my recorded albums at LEAST and more present sound outside of the back/front and left /right vertical plane between the speakers
+1 @newbee and @mahgister your system is wired out of phase if this is what you hear. Frankly, I don’t understand half your posts, and the other half I just flat out disagree with. You’re an odd duck dude.
|
Sorry but out of phase cannot be coherent like the acoustic factor which is "listener envelopment"aka LEV...And nobody will put 7 headphones in a closet like i did because of out of phase effect in his room is not it ?...
Educate yourself in basic acoustic...I even post a doctoral thesis explaining it in a post above...
Most of the times my music is in a depth dimension in the axis back/front and my soundscape impression are like an headphone intimate listening but the sound is out ofmy head...
My room is dedicated and contains at least 100 Helmhotz resonators, and diffusers also... A grid of 12 cheap Shumann resonators, 3 types of ionizers, a passive material treatment also with a balance between absorption, reflection, and diffusion...
I use also a wood screen behind me with many acoustic resonators and diffusers using with it the back reflections and lateral one to create this headphone effect...
The sound fill my room OUTSIDE of the speakers plane ...
if you dont know anything about acoustic for sure you dont know how to create listener envelopment and you dont even know what is the Helmhotz method...
Then in your ignorance it is better to explain my soundscape by "out of phase" effects but anyone reading my description about my acoustic coherent soundstage and imaging and listener envelopment know immediately that distortion cannot create a coherent image for all albums with different audible acoustic cues; and out of phase effect even if they are in my room cannot ERASE my acoustic devices power by itself anyway....
If you dont understand something it does not means that my posts make no sense... It means you dont KNOW the power of acoustic in a speakers/room relation... You are not alone, most audiophile ignoring acoustic speak about their gear in a fetichist way, ignoring that we listen to the Systen/room not to the system ALONE and by itself....
If someone has never lived through an acoustic transformation it is unbelivable anyway....i spoke by experience and experiments....
Experiment you may try at NO COST : put a set of plumber tubes vertically in your room of different lenght, do nothing else, the change negative or positive will be evident... Then tune them like i described and transform them in an Helmholtz resonators or in a diffuser and you will begin to understand...This is a mechanical tuning of the room by Helmholtz method but this cannot replace passive material treatment no more than passive material treatment alone can replace Helmholtz mechanical method...Acoustic is more complex than " buy an upgrade and plug it in the wall " yes....But it is also more powerful than most uppgrade anyway and cannot be replace by an upgrade...Most people dont get it anyway ....
This is only a simple experiment , no cost at all...Some junk discarded plumber tubes of various size is better...After assessing for yourself the negative or positive effect you will know and then the hard task will be fine tuning.... it takes only time and fun listening of music... Simple no ?
Acoustic at the end process alas! is a complex set of experiments yes, but it may cost NOTHING...I never bought any costly products.... Then have fun....It cost time and listening experiments yes to fine tune a system/room relation...but it is fun....
LIke me you will perhaps discover that upgrading your gear may be meaningless considering the ratio S.Q. / price ratio you already enjoy after acoustic tuning...
My best to you, apologizing for my rant, but that can be useful for someone here if not for you....
After all, how many people inform us all about acoustic power in audio thread with words enough powerful to ask for the attention necessary in this IMPORTANT audiophile underestimated matter ? Not many and those who speak about spoke about it with a too low voice to be understood in the general gear fetichism pervading audio thread...
+1 @newbee and @mahgister your system is wired out of phase if this is what you hear. Frankly, I don’t understand half your posts, and the other half I just flat out disagree with. You’re an odd duck dude.
|
+1 @mahgister. Obviously you have spent many years with the time involved with the development of your sound room. Unfortunately, while many of us would love to have a dedicated sound room, it is for the most part not a practical undertaking. That leaves some of us with very challenging room environments, but I applaud your knowledge regarding your experiences and advice.
|
tThen tune them like i described and transform them in an Helmholtz resonators or in a diffuser and you will begin to understand.
Uh, I doubt the recording engineers used Helmholtz resonators when they mixed the recording. Also, as a reviewer I got to hear many $500k+ systems in well-treated rooms, and in NONE of them did I hear 50% of the sound coming from outside the speakers unless the recording called for it, and 95% do not. If you’re hearing 50% of the sound coming from outside your speakers, you’re out of phase unless every other ultra high-end system I’ve heard is wrong. Or, maybe you just have a “magic system” that is mysteriously better than every system out there is wrong. My bet, you’ve constructed a room that radically diffuses the sound so you get width at the expense of center fill. You could get that much easier with some cheap Bose 901s. Again, you’re off on your own island and I don’t even understand you.
|
Well, I know it's possible to achieve what the OP has asked about, but it takes work and a recording that presents the required soundstage. I listen to large scale classical and quartets/quintets. If the recording is mic'd and engineered well I get to enjoy a wide and deep soundstage with a layered and focused image. The full orchestra extends beyond my speakers and each section of instruments is well defined. My all tube system plays a role in this presentation. Of course there are many recordings that don't extend beyond the speakers, but the soundstage extends from speaker to speaker with a focused image. BTW, in post #2 of this thread I stated that the OP needs to check if his system is in phase and are there any components that invert polarity. I don't think we got an answer.
My room is acoustically treated as much as a listening/living room can be. Following the instructions of John Devore for setting up his speakers is what locked the image into place. It doesn't take a masters degree in acoustic engineering to properly set up a listening room, no disrespect to that member. Maybe it helps that I know what to listen for due to my years working as an audio engineer.
|
Comical!
First your remark here made absolutely no sense at all because the acoustic of a personal room dont need to be the exact replica of a mixing studio :
Uh, I doubt the recording engineers used Helmholtz resonators when they mixed the recording.
Here it is easy to understand that you listen to your system perhaps in some room with some acoustic passive treatment but not to a mechanically controlled room if the sound scape of your system/room stay between the speakers 95 % of the time.... This illustrate the importance of Helmholtz mechanical control for fine tuning specific speakers to as specific room...Because most of my albums not only have imaging but a depth sound scape out the speakers surface axis in the front/back direction , not so often in the left/right direction outside of the speaker... like i say in some rare recording it is even better, my soundscape may come AROUND me and from behind or some voices be beside my ears with the orchestra behind the speakers inside the wall...
lso, as a reviewer I got to hear many $500k+ systems in well-treated rooms, and in NONE of them did I hear 50% of the sound coming from outside the speakers unless the recording called for it, and 95% do not
Also being a reviewer you may probably be like many audiophile a "gear fetichist" sorry, ignoring the power of acoustic and especially of psycho-acoustic, thinking that S.Q’ come directly from the system speakers instead of the system/room...
Divide the speed of sound by the size of your room if you want to know how many times in one second the soundwaves crossed your room and your ears to understand how REFLECTED waves play also a fundamental role even in NEAR listening position in most small room...In my room it is 13 times per second....If you want to know my room dimension use the speed of sound and make this child calculus...
You sell gear upgrade, i sell creativity and acoustic method at no cost in a dedicated room...
By the way i never pretended that my system is BETTER than most, it is only a relatively well chosen basic low cost one vintage; in the contrary i know perfectly well that half people in audiogon own better system than mine BUT IN BAD ACOUSTIC environment or in not so well treated and controlled room for sure....
My bet, you’ve constructed a room that radically diffuses the sound so you get width at the expense of center fill. You could get that much easier with some cheap Bose 901s. Again, you’re off on your own island and I don’t even understand you.
You are comical ...I dont bet often myself sorry, i made 2 years listening experiments in my room, enough to know that between DIFFUSION/ ABSORPTION/ REFLECTION, what matter is the appropriate ratio to apply for a scpecific speakers/room /ears relation...
And by the way the first acoustical factor to get right to begin with and the last one to get right in an ongoing set of experiments is naturalness of TIMBRE perception...You cannot have timbre right with DISTORTIONS and excess of diffusion , or excess of absorption or excess of reflections... You cannot have piano timbre right in a bad pressure zones room distribution... Read about timbre perception in acoustic and psycho acoustic...
Timbre perception is the most important acoustic cue... The guide to tune a room, not listener envelopment factor, not imaging and not soundstage...Because you can have "some" imaging with an imperfect system/ room but you cannot have a good instrument timbre in an imperfectly controlled room... Natural sounding Timbre is the hallmark of audiophile experience...
You dont understand me because you read too much audio articles magazine and not enough acoustic/psycho acoustic basic...I dont read marketing article ...
Try Helmholtz...And dont bet about room acoustic you dont know about....
All acoustic effects you dont know about are not explained by alleging "out of phase effect " from the audio system, or excess diffusion or excess reflections in a room ...
I am not deaf, i dont listen to any of my 7 headphones, do you think that i prefer distortions all across my room to a good Stax headphone?
If i could bet with you, i will bet you never know what the acoustical definition of "listener envelopment "means in psycho-acoustic, and the way to gain it, and i bet you never wrote about it in your reviews about the gear...
It is a safer bet than reducing my room to be a distorted mirror with no coherency because you dont know acoustic basic BY YOURSELF AND WITH YOUR EARS experiments......
😁😊😊😊😊😊
I apologize for my impertinent answer to your presomtuous post...
My best to you....
|
Maghister, please give example recordings where the soundscape extends well beyond the loudspeakers. Thank you very much in advance.
|
See one of my first post above in this thread this recording of the Three penny opera of Kurt weill amazingly well recorded...
When i listen to is see singers all around waliking, truning their head, the oechestra behind speakers and voices all around me outside speakers, and even beside and NEAR my ears and almost coming from my back....
Acoustic control of the room explain why my room is able to translate the recording cues in my room environment...
Maghister, please give example recordings where the soundscape extends well beyond the loudspeakers. Thank you very much in advance.
|
Mahler Symphony 6, Barbirolli/New Philharmonia. Warner Classics 2021 remaster
Pink Floyd, Obscured by Clouds, "Mudmen." Sony Music
Beethoven Symphony no.6, Chailly/Gewandhaus Leipzig. Decca 2011
Pat Metheny, Watercolors, title track. ECM 1977 original mastering
Playback is Qobuz through Node2i. Soundstage is wide and deep, well beyond the speakers.
These are different genres. I don’t have the tweaks that @mahgister uses. I use balanced power conditioning, component isolation, with equilateral triangle speaker setup and room treatments.
|
Nobody need the same exact "tweaks" nor gear, nor exact room treatment or room control..
But everybody need minimal room acoustic and vibrations control and a lower electrical noise floor ..
it seems you have it with your own room /system...
If your sound is not confined in between the speakers axis only and if the instrument timbre and imaging is good...Congratulations!
These are different genres. I don’t have the tweaks that @mahgister uses. I use balanced power conditioning, component isolation, with equilateral triangle speaker setup and room treatments.
|
@mahgister
I do believe in tweaks. Most are supported by scientific principles, but there are a few out there that improve sound quality but defy explanation as to how. So, I never criticize a person who uses a tweak that I don't understand. It's their system, so go ahead and enjoy it.
It took years to get my modest system to sound right. Realistic tonal qualities are what I'm hearing. My goal is to reproduce the recording as accurately as possible. And yeah, often the source has been manipulated, ie, enhanced soundstaging, but that's what the engineer has given us.
|
If this album soundscape is only in between your speakers common plane, and dont fill the room with the organ near your listening position outside of the speaker completely and the drum behind the speakers with the sax in front of the speaker, your speaker room relation is not well controlled...
one of my favorite guitarist...
|
"Again, you’re off on your own island and I don’t even understand you."
That is exactly why he is awesome...
+1 mahgister
|
This is a myth coming from the gear fetichism obsession and ignorance in most audiophile circle...
And dont confuse my perspective with the obsessed objectivist measures deluded crowd facing the subjectivist "tasting" gear crowd by the way....two groups linked by the same gear fetichism but in opposing direction... 😁😊
There is no PERFECT REPRODUCTION from a recorded cd or vinyl, there is ALWAYS a RELATIVE TRANSLATION from the recorded acoustical cues of the original lived event, but interpreted and selected by the trade-off calculus of the recording engineer INTO your speakers/room acoustic relation ..
You have here one set of acoustic choices translated to another set of acoustic choices determined by the geometry, the topology, and the acoustic content of your room...
A relative translation never an identical reproduction is possible... Acoustic and psycho-acoustic science determine what is sound and music experience in a room... Not electronical engineering by itself alone sorry...
No acoustian give a dam about gear fetichism, no musician either , guess why?
Think about it....
My goal is to reproduce the recording as accurately as possible.
|
Thanks for your approval or interest...
I am a retired old fool who take refuge in music after my acoustic journey ending, against a world becoming completely mad...
No common basis of discussion...
in sound/music the common basis is essentially acoustic and psycho-acoustic...Gear choices so important they are, are second to acoustic ... Guess why?
In geopolitic it is simple agreed facts are the common basis not propaganda....
If we cannot look for a common basis of discussion grounded in simple facts in the world, not propaganda, there will be no peace; and if we cannot look for a common basis of dicsussion grounded in acoustic facts not gear obsession there will be no musical acoustic optimal experience ...
Different worlds, same madness... Propaganda or publicity, always lies....
+1 mahgister
|
There is no PERFECT REPRODUCTION from a recorded cd or vinyl, there is ALWAYS a RELATIVE TRANSLATION from the recorded acoustical cues of the original lived event, but interpreted and selected by the trade-off calculus of the recording engineer INTO your speakers/room acoustic relation ..
A relative translation never an identical reproduction is possible...
Agreed. Cutting to the chase, I think any audiophile would know this.
|
The original poster is nowhere to be found,while others fight amongst themselves. We don't know much about his room. So I will cast a wide net of ideas. I messed around with my system for a couple years before I was satified with the sound. Your speakers look nice and should image well. Here are some factors that could cause your symptom:
Too close to side walls
Too close to back wall
Wired wrong
Excessive phase cancelling due to reflections, comb filtering
A sub can help focus the playback
Springs under speakers. This helps but something else is wrong.
If you have a dedicated room, then this is easier. Some of the setups mixed with furniture in living areas will sound just like your system does now. My guess is room treatment but need more information.
|
OP here,
Gosh, I never thought to provoke so many heated comments. Thanks to all who made positive comments and suggestions.
My living room is 14x19, speakers are on the short wall ,about 3 ft out from the wall and 3.5 ft from the side walls, very slightly toed in. I listen about 8 ft back. There are 3 windows with heavy curtains, Carpet over wood floor, no room treatments. Tonal response is good.
the speakers are in phase according to a test record. As to polarity I have no idea how to test individual components and doubt that it can be changed on any component.
Again thanks to those who gave advice.
|
rrm, Your room dimensions are close to identical to mine. Our set up is a bit different in that my speakers are 5 1/2’ from the back wall and I listen on axis about 9 ft back (about 4 1/2 ft from the wall behind the chair . I’ve minimized side wall bounce and have irregular diffusing stuff on wall behind speakers. If you can you might try moving your speakers a bit closer to the side walls and increasing your toe in to minimize first reflections off the side wall. Toe in slightly in front of your head could help depending on the design of your speakers. Something closer to an equilateral triangle. It could/should perhaps give you a soundstage that fills the wall behind your speakers (assuming that the information is in the recording). Good luck.
|
Newbee mirrors what i have found...little wider soundstage moving apart and toeing in (over your shoulder) to remove 1st reflections...speaker from front wall measured by tweeter.I think too far from front can loose sound stage...read you dont want side/wall and front/wall the same feet apart.Moving your chair up into Triangle/soundstage is another thing to try and see were imaging is best.Dont over dampen room...leave some liveness?
|
