@terry9---say, what pump do you use with your Terminator? Have you also incorporated a "surge" tank? Just a regular ol' 1 gallon plastic jug? I'm about to mount my Terminator (which I had Vic fit with the last of his silver wire, straight to a pair of WBT RCA plugs) on a VPI Aries 1 I got specifically for use with the arm.
Linear tracking turntables, whatever happened?
Curious as to the demise and downfall of the seemingly short lived linear tracking TT.
Just from a geometry point of view I would have thought a linear arm should be superior to one with a fixed pivot that sweeps through an arc.
Obviously there is much more to it than that, sort of the reason for this thread.
I am genuinely interested in trying one out for myself as well.
Just from a geometry point of view I would have thought a linear arm should be superior to one with a fixed pivot that sweeps through an arc.
Obviously there is much more to it than that, sort of the reason for this thread.
I am genuinely interested in trying one out for myself as well.
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Understanding these design differences will go a long way towards setup of both tonearms. If anyone is toasting carts on an ET2 they have no idea how to set it up.@ct0517 Looking back on it, I think you are right. |
Trans-Fi tonearm works with low pressure. An aquarium pump is recommended. I run mine at 20-30mm of Hg, that is about 0.5 psi. Low pressure means no issues with oil or condensate or maintenance. High pressure (for my TT) does mean maintenance, but industrial accessories and connectors limit that to an hour a month. |
^^^^ It´s actually child´s play after a while. Oh, I did forgot the air filter altogether, but it lasted for ten years LOL Terry, you are welcome. Yes, I run Vic´s Salvation motor (implementation for my setup) on soapstone plinth + maglev is very steady due its dense magnetic field created by powerful opposing neodymium magnets with very small gap. Again inspired by Vic´s experimenting at the same time. Another simple brilliant idea from him as it just works. The same with his obvious path to maglev feet shortly after. As for your tweak I think I get the picture .....Fascinating. I may have a few questions still. Here on A´gon there´s too much confusion ... and businessmen drink their wine and smoke fat cigars ... Can we discuss somewhere else, maybe you are in other forums ? Or from another, better world ( : _) |
Ketchup It was not really the setup of an air bearing arm I was referring to. But more over all the attendant hardware, lines, pumps, etc and the noise however slight from a pump( unless you can set the pump up in another area?). Just my choice , which is why I started this thread as I am intrigued by the concept of linear tracking but sans air setup. |
Dear Millercarbon, Thank you for "telling it like it is". I've never heard those gaudy products all together in one system, but I can imagine that I might agree with you, if I were to audition that system. However, let's do keep in mind that the Clearaudio turntable uses a Souther-type tonearm, described by me in an earlier post. In fact, I think Clearaudio bought the patent rights from Souther in order to incorporate his ideas into their products. In my opinion (and I stress that this is ONLY an opinion), the Souther design, where the cartridge is carried on what amounts to only a headshell which rides in a gravity-dependent fashion on a rail strung across the LP surface, has many issues. Not the least of which is that any irregularity in the LP surface has a large effect upon VTA, due to the very short distance between the stylus and the headshell pivot point. My point is that I would not throw the SL tracking baby out with the Clearaudio bath water. SL tracking done well does have merit. I think air bearing is the way to go, but like many others who joined this thread, I chose not to bother with the air pumps, filters, and noise that come with air bearing tonearms. I do recognize that by choosing to use only pivoted tonearms, I am accepting one set of problems for another. |
Not much demand for it these days apparently, though I tend to agree linear tacking is a very desirable approach in theory for tracking a record but it has to be realized well in a product that people have good reason to buy. Although turntables have achieved more of a presence of late than for many years prior, it is still a relatively small and very competitive niche market it seems compared to when linear tracking models reached their peak (still a very small niche even then). I’d even go so far to say that handling a tonearm manually is one of things that people associate with vinyl and contributes to its appeal for many. |
I really don't get it. Air bearing arms are not hard to set up at all (as long as you have a good design that is fully adjustable) and running them is not complicated, either. There is virtually no maintenance required after the initial setup with the exception of changing the air filter every few years (or sooner depending on how often you use it). Most people work much harder switching amps, cables, tubes, etc. |
Prof I did not want to really comment as the dedication is to be admired for sure. But if air bearing is the only real way to make a linear tracker work at its best then it absolutely is not for myself either! However that is not to detract from the concept or to those who do have the dedication and conviction to see it through to the end. Just not my cup of tea though. |
dorkwad
Ya know... I consider myself an obsessed audiophile (I go through phases). But the above sounds, even to me, utterly insane. I can't imagine buying in to a system with that amount of bother attached to it. Whenever I think I go to far in pursuing this hobby....other audiophiles remind me: there are levels. ;-) I admire your dedication dorkwad. |
millercarbon Well, here is the picture that represents your Definitive Audio to the world. . https://www.definitive.com/ See any problems ? I have found that whenever there are issues with what one is hearing, it usually comes down to at least one of the following areas. The Room Setup <<<<<----->>>>> B Type Personality Audio Gear Setup <<<<<----->>>>> One's Hearing Ability. ********************************************************************** The complicated part "IS" that they are all inter-related ********************************************************************** Hopefully everyone understands why you can't have one without the other. |
Oh dear ... your TT/TA combo must be absolutely fantastic, Terry. Air bearing platter and TA - Ö - Reminds me of the Dr. Forsell´s Air Reference way back in 1990 and sounded just great ... oh those were the days ... I use maglev bearing on the spindle inspired by Vic´s Salvation deck. For a ridiculous price : ) Extended manifold by epoxied (!) extension. Just like that. Brilliant. Well, frankly I have´t even thought that supported manifold makes a significant improvement to the sound itself as the floating saddle evens height derivations on micro level scale + that most records are really concave discs ? And I have always just found it funny to watch cartridge swaying up and down and side to side on warped and eccentric discs : ~ ). As the cantilever/stylus remains straight & steady and the sound is still incredible compared to what I have had earlier. Terminator can handle very severe warps and folds with ease. Are you saying that supported manifold is a serious improvement ? As for damping the arm base, you are probably right, it doesn´t need damping material due to air cushion really. You use Moongel as damping ? Well that´s great, I may buy some : ) Thanks, it´s been a sheer pleasure talking to you. |
Here in Seattle our marquee high end dealer is Definitive Audio. Their founding location on Roosevelt has the flagship clearaudio turntable, linear tracking arm, and cartridge, feeding a host of similarly ultra-high end components terminating in a pair of Wilsons, sorry I forget the model. I just can't get my brain worked up that hard for stuff that doesn't sound good. And this was the worst most expensive (well over $600k and no that is not a misprint, well over a half a Doctor Evil voice MILLION dollars) pile of audio assault I've ever heard. Sorry, but I was only able to remember the other gear long enough to do a web search and come up with the $600k. Because I knew it had to be a phenomenal waste of money. But just how pornographically obscene I could hardly believe even after adding it all up. But wait! Sorry! Almost forgot! That doesn't include speaker cables, interconnects, power cords, or power line conditioner! Actually it was probably a cool MILLION dollars worth of audiophool bling. Linear tracking is one of those things people can think of, that seems like it should be better, just look at all the fancy engineering. Only its not. For proof look no further than the nearby current thread where everyone so far is chiming in saying the same thing, tracking distortion from cartridge alignment just don't matter. Which just happens to be the be-all reason for linear tracking arms. A fool and his money.... will find their way to Definitive.... and linear tracking tone arms. They may not have died and disappeared. But they should have. |
@clearthink- Have you owned, possessed and used a linear tracking arm for any length, duration or period of time? I'm curious, wondering and eager to know whether your view, opinion and position on these arms is based on experience, involvement and actuality, since my ownership, use and experience has not really required, mandated or necessitated ongoing adjustments, alterations or calibrations. Thank you, regards and salutations, |
Not necessary to constantly fiddle, with the Trans-Fi at least. However, most fiddles bring a reward, so the temptation is there. Also, with the Trans-Fi adjustments are stable, rather more stable than most conventional arms I have used. @harold-not-the-barrel Good questions. Yes, I support the manifold with an arm bolted to an aluminum column, bolted to the plinth. Actually, I designed my TT to accept this mod, and so the air thrust bushing supporting the platter sits on a panzerholz plinth which is fixed to big blocks of steel. The aluminum column is bolted to one of these steel blocks. The Trans-Fi is bolted to the panzerholz plinth through another aluminum column. The manifold is slightly extended with a machined aluminum piece which is epoxied into the vee of the manifold. This machined piece has a protruding shelf which accepts a #0-80 screw, which touches the new supporting arm. A 1/16 turn of this screw adjusts height by about 20 microns, acting over a distance of about 30cm (screw to manifold pivot), corresponding to an angle of 0.00007 radians, or about 15 seconds of arc. In practice, I use only about half of this resolution, so adjustments are +/- 30 seconds of arc, which is sufficient. The settings are stable. I haven't found it necessary to damp the Trans-Fi's base - I think that the air cushion covers that. But I haven't tried it, so I don't really know. Nice talking with you, Harold. All the best! |
ooooooh...so feeling the LTL here............. Linear Tracking Love. You guys may just help me make it through winter. 8^0 Atmasphere Atmasphere - are you referring to the ET2 ? re" Dealerships and Pro reviewers on the ET2 specifically Dealer setup. Dealerships and Pro reviewers never got past base setup - call it a 6/10 on the audiophile sonics scale. This is obvious to an experienced ET2 person reading any review or visiting a dealership. And still the tonearm ranks at the top of the sonics lists. An example of this base versus advanced setup. The tonearm has a higher lateral mass and the design goal for setup is to get the highest vertical inertia. How do you do it ? You need to get past base setup. You set up the I beam for the highest vertical inertia. Now one can read the ET2 Tonearm Owners thread. The owners manual hints at it. A version 2 of the Et2 owners manual probably would have come out that described it in more detail, but like I said earlier, the ET2 came out same time as the CD and the demand probably did not warrant it for Bruce Thigpen ***************************************** Atmasphere The ET2.0 and 2.5 have no cartridge limits. The 2.0's resonances are ideal for higher compliance and 2.5's for lower compliance. I have used everything from a 50 x 10-6cm/Dyne Sonus Blue Gold https://photos.app.goo.gl/vUkVYgZYdxign27L6 to a Benz Micro and Dyna XV1 . https://photos.app.goo.gl/pSFYYp2uxPKvygpe6 Carts used by Et2'rs from one end of compliance to another are readily discussed on the ET2 thread. ***************** All air bearings are unique in their design. As one comparison to the Kuzma Airline for instance. See the parts circled. https://photos.app.goo.gl/KRCAqT7itqdD89RX9 The manifold that houses the air bearing is Ground Zero. Looking at the pic one can see the the Kuzma has a smaller manifold that actually moves with the armtube, and it needs its air line and wires for damping. Its meant for a lower compliance cart. Put a higher compliance on and well, not good...as I have heard from Lyra owners. The ET2 is a different design entirely. Look at the pic again. It has a much larger "stationary" manifold. The air line is fixed to the stationary manifold, and the wiring is not needed for damping. This is why you see so many wire mods for the ET 2.0 and 2.5. But this is also where folks go wrong. If arranging the wiring the wrong way, it will influence the tonearm and cause lesser sonics, to mistracking due to the bearing being so slick. In comparison to the Kuzma Airline bearing, the ET 2.0 2.5 air bearing has been described as "very slippery" by those familiar with both. Understanding these design differences will go a long way towards setup of both tonearms. If anyone is toasting carts on an ET2 they have no idea how to set it up. Sounds to me like your dealers were Personality Type B...8^0. |
There is a company out of Poland Pre Audio that is making some very interesting new production tables-LT arms combos from $2k and up. they have a few different arms table combos, some air some not. worth looking at. https://wallofsound.ca/audioreviews/linear-bargain-pre-audios-intriguing-bt-1301-turntable/ |
Hello. Obviously I’m relatively "new" here but I have a good 35+ years in this hobby. I’ve owned many turntables and have restored and "improved" even more. During that time I started wondering how well a linear tracking turntable might perform.... Long story short, I have now restored 5 B&O Beogram 4002 turntables. They use a photo-optic sensor that becomes "exposed" to a light source as a shutter is opened at the base of the tonearm.....shutter opening and subsequent drive motor engagement are dictated by the gradual inward movement of the stylus in the groove of the record and that is what opens the shutter.... When set up properly they are fantastic performers...very elegant and clever design. I have two for my personal use and have restored three for clients of mine.... Lots of talk about their cartridges being "so-so".....I disagree, as does Peter Ledermann of Soundsmith…. I run the MMC20EN cartridges and they are fantastic. Am about to send one of mine in to Soundsmith for a rebuild. Will report back how it sounds. Ultimately, personal preference dictates what we buy, or buy into with this hobby..... Any other Beogram 4002 lovers out there? |
Terry, maybe you should have taken over for new production ; ) Interesting tweaks you have made there. You mean beam is manifold ? Then, may I ask how you have managed install the support for the other end ? To back of the plinth ? Maybe you could send me pics of it. I have covered the saddle with damping sheet. I can cover the wand too if necessary (one cartridge benefits from damped wand). Do you think it´s an upgrade to cover the base as well although it´s quite sturdy ? The arm sits on a sturdy brass column on soapstone plinth. Regards, |
Bergman is one manufacture that makes high quality tables another is Pre Audio http://www.charismaaudio.com/?page_id=3783 |
ok - I will rephrase.@ct0517 That suggests the possibility of an air bearing. I don't have a business relationship with Triplanar, just for the record. I do own two of his arms. I saw a linear tracker eventually fatigue a Sumiko Boron to the point that the cantilever just fell off the cartridge. No particularly bad-ass records used. Prior to that happening, you could see the cantilever move from left to right. Clearly too much compliance. I owned a Rabco for many years. I built a servo for it so that would be reliable. The servo also took some time to spin the motor up or down; in this way it would establish a speed depending on the cut of the record and didn't make a lot of motor noise. I also replaced the arm 'wand' with a carbon fiber setup that was lower mass. But the track that the arm ran on was its downfall- the track had resonance issues and used poor bearings to support the arm. When the air bearing arms came out I took a good look at them, as I spent a lot of time at our first dealership, who also carried the arm. It gained a reputation for eating cantilevers. Clearly whatever cartridge you are using is more durable- what are you using? |
Agreed about the Trans-Fi. Not only is it a good air bearing design, so the lateral forces acting on the stylus are negligible (think about the mechanical advantage of a spiral a meter long, acting over the width of a groove - a distance measured in micrometers), but it’s adjustable. As adjustable as any arm made, and that alone makes it a contender. Let’s talk about adjustability. Tangentiality - fiddly, but perfectible. An old record, a good micrometer, a bright light, and half an hour. Mass - just add brass weights to the conveniently space holes. Resonance - lay Moongel or Sorbothane on the flat surfaces, as much or as little as required - as required for your cartridge and your taste. VTA adjustment on the fly - and so easy it’s trivial. VTF a bit crude and fiddly, not on the fly, but intuitively obvious. Azimuth is the toughie - fiddly, but intuitive and very stable. Thing is, you start where most others end - and you end with 1 or 2 minute of arc precision (with a mod - see below). Forget about overhang and choose-your-poison protractors which pretty much get it right - for parts of the record. And forget about almost-right-I-hope anti-skating. Instead, rejoice in Vic’s measurement about forces acting on the stylus - tonearm wire dominates. Add the clever engineering which makes use of standard parts instead of precision machining, and you have a low-cost ultra high end device. Is it perfect? No. The beam is cantilevered out, and so it’s just as unstable as other air bearing arms (that is, not very, but a little). The beam should hold adjustment to a few minutes of arc for perfect horizontal orientation. It doesn’t - it’s only stable to about 10 minutes of arc, but on the other hand, it’s a predictable amount in a predictable direction. I’ve built a support for the other end of the cantilever, and it solves both issues. The vertical pivot is higher than the stylus by a centimetre or more. That means slightly compromised performance for warped records. The wand is only 70mm long, which accentuates the problem. On the other hand, the wand is only 70mm long. So that’s a tradeoff. In practical terms, it affects about 3% of my records negatively and 97% positively. Last, there is a very minor aberration in air pressure on the saddle, for a few seconds, three or four times per side. The only cure is going to be an amorphous carbon bearing - costly, clunky, high pressure, and probably custom. But if I do that, I suspect I’ll have the best, most versatile cost-no-object tonearm in the world. Or, you could settle for $15,000 performance for $1,000. System - DIY air bearing TT, Koetsu, DIY electronics, ESL’s. |
Uberwaltz - I agree with you take for example another timing example. The original ET2 Air Bearing Linear tracker was introduced in 1980. The same year that CD was introduced. Bad timing ? yes, but thousands were still sold. Today they cost $5000 in US dollars new and without the pump system, but can be had for under $1000 used in good shape for an original version from the 80's. Now unless someone has driven over one with their car ,there is nothing but a good isopropyl cleaning of the manifold's capillaries, to bring it to factory specs. No mechanical bearing to deal with, no oil or lubricant to get hard over time. Unlike the Transfi with its multi bearing (air and mechanical), the ET2 is a full 360 enclosed air bearing. But it needs a pump with air line. My reference tonearm is a custom build ET 2.5. Once set up properly, it outperformed all previous tonearms including VPI 12, FR64s, and a Dynavector the last of which came to me on a Jean Nantais (his preferred arm) 100 lb Lenco. This TT had the same gear on it that Salvatore called the best he has heard with the first Ref 1. ******** But it takes a Type A personality to own an ET2, not a Type B. What is an Type A you ask ? Well, think back to before GPS in cars. If you were out in the middle of nowhere and lost, would you Type A) pull out the map and/or ask for directions. (or) Type B) keep prodding on hoping to find your destination. (Type B's should not own ET2's) Anyway there is a whole thread dedicated to this unique tonearm if anyone is interested. |
From responses so far it does appear I can summarise the demise of the linear TT as a package, nothing to do with later linear arms. They were out at the time that vinyl in general was on a rapid decline due to CD. They were packaged and marketed for the most part as a simple and easy alternative to CD, with the result that a lot were neglected, heck it would not surprise me if some people did not even realise there was a stylus in there that needed cleaning. They were somewhat complicated electronically ( required to compete with CD) and as such were more prone to breakdown than regular pivot arm manual TT of the time. |
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The Revox Linear tracking TT has a high electronic failure rate, it has nothing to do with the operation of the arm itself. Many times you will see the revox up for sale as not working due to this electronic problem. I can’t remember what the problem was exactly, but it is not all that difficult a fix for a tech - but they all need it, as times has gone on. Other than that, they are a fine example of a mid level short armed linear tracker. As for air bearing linear trackers, don't forget the Maplenoll tables. |
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dwette Clearaudio has several linear arms starting at the ~$4K range. I had thought about getting the TT-5 for my Ovation (to replace the Magnify arm) but opted for their top of the line tangential arm instead, the Universal.The Universal looks like a fairly conventional pivoted arm. What mechanism does it have that makes it tangential? |
Good morning Lew, Back to the business. Upsetting is your word not mine. Nothing upsets me after 40+ yrs in Hi-Fi, only prejudice and ignorance makes me laugh really. I never mentioned frictionless either on functionality of LT TAs. There´s a hell of lot friction in both sides of stylus when playing a record, that friction generates the sound. I repeat: no extra force nor resistance is needed to hold the stylus in the groove so with AB TAs servos are voodoo. The groove does the jog. Dot. If you have heard a LT TA before why not say it right away. Your first writing gives the impression of the opposite. Too much confusion. Very well then... Excellent you are considering buying a Trans-Fi arm but it has taken already five-six years you first said that. Life´s short man. Why dontcha buy one right now ? I know you are a man of reason, due to your great gear as seen online. It´s audio´s most ridiculous bargain. It will fix your Lenco just perfectly (don´t take my word, there´s plenty evidence of Trans-Fi/Lencos online). And in the unlike case you don´t like it for whatever reason you can sell it very easily in used markets. One stayed less than a day on AOS market a few days back. I have never had issues with Terminator, only my clumsiness and goofing around in the beginning as a novice : ). Funny thing, to my great delight I found a linear tracker is easier to adjust properly than pivot arms which are the real PITA in practice, not to mention that ever annoying anti-skate which is practically never right not to mention perfect, and even so it´s always just so darn futile : / Adjusting Terminator PERFECTLY takes LOTS of time. But once you have taken the sweaty task to make it work, the job´s done. Just sit back and enjoy life. The only "drawback" I´ve had: the low-pressure Sera Aquarium pump broke after exactly ten years´ almost daily service just recently. Vic send me new for 25 pounds. Good luck and have fun : ) |
They were great but like anything with complexity they can (will) fail over time and could be difficult to repair. You can still see some listed for sale on craigslist in major cities from time to time. Nothing beats the simplicity and reliability of a direct-drive turntable with a pivoting tonearm. |
Clearaudio has several linear arms starting at the ~$4K range. I had thought about getting the TT-5 for my Ovation (to replace the Magnify arm) but opted for their top of the line tangential arm instead, the Universal. The TT-5 and their other linear trackers are considered finicky to set up and keep dialed in, so I am told. The Universal was easy-peasy for me to setup and dial-in, and is a set it a forget it system. It sounds fantastic and ended up one of the best upgrades I’ve done. |
@uber These are very good comments but I am still left wondering what was wrong with the general consumer models like the Revox, B&O, Technics etc that caused their lack of acceptance. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Technics linear tracking turntables. They solved so many problems to do with the difficulty and complexity (for non-technically-inclined types) of setting up a conventional tonearm by ushering in the innovative P-Mount system. Technics was and still is light years ahead of most others in respects of speed stability, and they’ve done very well with their TNRC anti-resonant polymeric compounds. I still own the first turntable I bought, from back in 1981 or thereabouts: the Technics SL-DL5 direct drive linear tracking turntable, and it sounds great, as good today as ever. I’ve since bought the quartz regulated model, the SL-QL5, and it sounds even better. These turntables were also very attractively designed, with a very low profile and sloping dustcover, beautiful materials and sleek, high quality controls. The only thing keeping me from using these for daily use is my SL-1700mk2 which has an Audio-Technica VM540ML cartridge with line contact stylus, which is in my humble opinion, close to being as good as it gets. |
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Clearaudio has these offerings.I am still saving for the TT5 https://clearaudio.de/en/products/tonearms-tt5.php https://clearaudio.de/en/products/tonearms-tt3.phphttps://clearaudio.de/en/products/tonearms-tt2.php |
I will chime in with the problem with straight line tracking air bearing arms is definitely the pump and all parts of the air supply leading to the TT. I had a Maplenoll Ariadne air bearing TT/arm combo for 12 years that was absolutely the best sounding somewhat reasonably priced combo ever built. The problem is it needed very clean 40 PSI pressure to make the arm bearing work. The TT would be fine with about 5 PSI. They had a splitter near the TT that would channel the air to both TT and arm in separate tubes. There needed to be a governor on that splitter that would divert say 85%of the air to the arm and only 15% to the TT. If that had been done, who knows just how great the 'Noll might have been. However, in addition to an extremely loud pump that needed isolation from the room you listen in, I really couldn't run for 4 hours without having overheating problems and either shutting down permanently or rupturing the diaphragm that allows it to pump air. It also required a filter to clean the air, an air plenum to take the condensing water out of the line caused by the high powered pump--and all these things need a separate aquarium tube to run to each piece from the other. The setup did not get out of alignment as long as it was leveled and not moved. GOOD! The air supply to the TT/arm could be stopped by any of the parts of the air supply delivery crapping out or any of the hose connections popping free from the pressure. VERY BAD. Solved that after the first time it happened that way putting on of the small plastic locking straps snugged good over the tube at each connection. I also have a Trans-Fi Terminator with all the upgrades and it is able to run off a small aquarium pump--solves the 4 hour problem, the arm design only needed 3 PSI; and the noise--very little there. I used it with a super Lenco rebuild using most of Jean Nantais' upgrades and mods and a giant 100 lb. 10-layered plinth. The sound is very good, but not as good as the WORKING 'Noll. A lot safer on the cantilevers of cartridge as there is virtually NO way for the air supply to stop and the arm can float for several minutes IF it did somehow. It's one problem is a PITA in that the arm is a very short 3" for better sound, BUT...the sliderule like rail the arm floats on actually sits above the record and covers the rear 2" of it with only about an inch of clearance from the record. You have to lift the record at an angle to take off the record and the same angle to put it on--not a big deal. But because of its design, when you use the cueing lever, the long thin rod that holds the counterweights ends up rubbing on the record's outside edge too often. I ended up buying a very good used pivoting arm that sounds as good or better with the Lenco as the 'Noll. I LOVE it--the Pete Riggle Woody. The combo is clearer, more dynamic, and I love it adjustability and easy of use, as in NO issues of any type. As has been already mentioned, it also looks great. Probably more than you wanted to know, but I have some experience with both types of arms in a really good system. Bob |
