Looking for more detail in a speaker

I had the 802D2’s...my Krell Vanguard Digital drove them extremely well...400w/ch @  4ohms.  I may have a buyer tonight for $2500.  It is mint and sweet...think fast.  Msrp was $5500 but actually went up a bit before K300i came out.  For $2500 it absolutely can not be beat, plus a world class DAC!!

The 803D2’s are an intriguing speaker that I purchased without a demo but had heard other B&W’s and took a flyer in them because I got a good deal and figured I could move them for same price if I didn’t like. Right now they are pretty close to sound as my Triton 1’s but in doing some research understand they like power. I was disappointed to learn that my McIntosh 152 is only 150 watts across all ohm taps. I have a Rowland 112 that I can get 275 watts tapped into 4 ohm. I’ll be trying that out today or tomorrow. On loan from my local Audio dealer I have a Rotel rb 1590, which is tops out at 350 watts per channel. So, it will be intersecting to hear the difference more juice makes with these speakers. 
This whole search for more detail brings me back to the importance amp selection  mentioned in this thread. I auditioned the 805 D’s through a Gryphon Diablo which is a 300 watt amp. So that, compared to all the other variables could be what makes the difference in the that quest for more detail, definition, soundstage, what ever you want to call it, especially with 800 series speakers. Seasoned audiophiles know this but a lot us on the learning curve may not fully appreciate the importance and think 150 watts should cover most applications.  My dealer also lent me a pair of Rocket 33 biwires to try as well and suspect that will help bring out the detail even more with these B&W’s. 

@bfoura ...For absolutely best sound for the money, I have not heard anything superior to either my Krell Vangaurd Digital or Krell K 300i !  They synergize exceptionally well.  May offer up my Vangaurd soon for a very nice price!

Thanks for shearing this post. This is very helpful info.

I’ve owned a ton of gear and countless speakers of all designs.  The B&W Diamonds are my favorites because they deliver such inner detail and harmonic texture that it puts me in the venue!  Having extra gear around is fun so you can mix it up a bit if you get bored.

Since my last post been doing a little tweaking with gear and such. Finally got around to rerouting my speaker wires which saved me 13’ with each run. In the process I learned one of the speaker wire arrows was pointing the wrong direction, lol. I think those changes made some Audible difference. The greatest benefit was hiding a bunch of unsightly speaker wire. I’m still about 18’ from the speakers and will have to live with that till I get new furniture for my room so I can move my listening chair up to about 10’. I can tell a slight difference in sound staging standing closer to the speakers so I think once I get them dialed in to a new listening position they will sound even better. Of course shortening the speaker wire run even more is important and still thinking how I can make that happen. 

There are some caveats to all this in that I introduced some new gear to my system. I picked up a Rowland 112 amp, an Audible Illusions L3A tube preamp and a pair of B&W 803 D2’s. I’ve been switching out my McIntosh 152 amp with the Rowland and my C48 preamp with Audible Illusions. The B&W’s are not as easy to move as the GE’s so they’ve stayed in the mix with the various amp and preamp combinations. I did a test with the Sympathy 4 Devil song that got me started on this exploration. The guiro percussion at the beginning was more prominent with the 803 D2’s than the GE’s but not like with the 805 D3’s I heard. So, the room, amp, interconnects, setup, etc. where I originally heard Sympathy obviously were a major factor. 
Another thing I noticed is that none of the speakers or equipment I’ve been trying absolutely blows each other away. I can hear differences but really nothing that says I can’t live without this or that component. At this point, I feel the GE’s and B&W’s are pretty close. I do think the B&W’s have a higher ceiling for audio potential with better placement, speaker wire and other tweaks to my system. I also like the musicality of the AI preamp but like the functionally of the C48. Everything is there with the C48 and does a very good job without having to add a DAC or phono stage. I thought I definitely liked the Rowland better but after putting the McIntosh back in, feels like an old friend. Obviously, I still haven’t drawn any firm conclusion other than attention to detail will create the detail one is seeking,  whatever that may be. 

Just took delivery of my B&W 802D3 speakers!! So excited 😆 

To the first post. I have a pair of speakers that takes the song 'lost cause' by beck and turns it into a magical mystery tour. the background, idk woodwinds? flute? overlayed in the mix on one specific pair of speakers sound distinct and amazing, like at the end of the song when beck blows into the mic, that sound continues through the entire song, but I only have one pair of affordable speakers that show it? I'v bought several speakers at multiple times the price and none are able to recreate the layering, contrast, and depth on that specific song. I've decided there's a treble peak in the affordable speakers tailor made for that one song or there's other fq's those speakers aren't reproducing that allow those delicate notes to shine so well. Either way my more recent experience shows me it's a speaker coloration making that song pop and B&W speakers also have tailored output.

Dill 1
Bring your listening position to 10' from the speakers. Put your speakers 10' apart (measured at the center of the tweeter). Position yourself 10' from an imaginary plane between the tweeters, dead center. Angle both speakers so you can see just a sliver of the inside wall of each speaker at your listening position. Also, adjust your listening position so your ear (height from the the floor) is as close as the tweeter height is from the floor. Do not use a cloth covered , high back chair for listening. I would also suggest shorter, higher quality speaker cables, but only after you have done all of the above.

I wondered about being 17 or 20 feet from the speakers and would start with the basic stuff like dill1 suggests; and then incremental adjustments to try to improve the sound. 

Also maybe the odd room shape is disrupting the treble, and some sort of room treatments are necessary.

If it is the room, spending for new speakers may be a way to waste your money

Or maybe you just want new speakers?

FWIW

Dsper.

Thanks for the input @dmbwires. That’s a pretty close “Apple to apples” comparison. I’ll listen to the original 805 D’s in my system this weekend but will keep the 805 D3s in mind as I heard those this past weekend. There’s a smaller Audio dealer in town that sells B&W’s who might let me audition the latest model in my home. 

Bfora. I have the MC-152 / C47 in my office system playing through the 805
d3’s. This system sounds incredible and seems to check your search boxes. Why not see if BB Mag will set up the d3’s in your room? If you go the 805 route I’d strongly suggest the d3’s over the earlier models. I went that route starting with the “S” model. Enjoy your journey. 

@pimbo why do you say that about the Dynaudio’s. Don’t know that much about them. These 5.4’s are about 18 years old. Please tell me more. Thx. 

No time to read the whole thread so I might be saying something someone elastic's already has; That 'detail' in the B&W speaker is going to hurt your ears after a while. Get the Dynaudios. You won't regret it.

Along with more detail comes, usually, more brightness. I'll cope with a bit less detail for warmth. 

Yeah Buddy!  Rowland gear is awesome.  Built right here in my hometown.  
That amp should be awesome.  Congratulations!!

@b_limo previously mentioned that I’m going to be able to audition the 805’s I heard I’m my home. Was going to do that tomorrow but need to push to next weekend. Before that will trim 15-20’ from my speaker wires. That should help a little.  It’ll be interesting to a/b the two speakers in my home. 
@loudspeaker77 aka Sandy, I did play around with more to-in with the GE’s and could hear a difference. Still need to experiment with placement but want to do so after trimming the speaker wire. Interestingly, I thought my vinyl playback sounded the best. I demoed the 805’s from a private seller. He used tidal through a MYTEK Brooklyn DAC. I stream through a McIntosh MB 50 through the DAC in my C 48. I have a Sony HAPZ1 for play back of my cached CD’s. I have to use the DAC on the Sony. This process is having me explore other options for my DAC, streamer and cd server. Not saying I’ll make a move but just want to open my mind to other possibilities. That said, I purchased a Jeff Rowland 112. I got a good deal on it and look forward to comparing it to my McIntosh 152. BTW, Sandy, the friend who’s trying to help me with my Well Tempered project is Mark Heaston. He used to co-own Concert Sound in San Antonio back in the day. Says he met you briefly at a couple of the trade shows. 

Whoa, 40 foot run of speaker cables?

Brother, you have too many variables here to compare ehat you heard with the b&w’s vs at your home.

Also, contact gik and get a consultation from them as well.  I much prefer gik over most everything else out there.  Magnolias roomtreatments don’t look that great to me.  Giks new scatter plates that you can put over the bass traps looks really nice.  
Whats your source?  Are you streaming tidal or...?

Hi Bfoura, Yes it is me, all day every day. Just trying to help. Not sure about your DAC. The bigger question is your streaming service and the quality of what they are using and putting out. I have a feeling the dealer was using hi res files. And there is a big difference between Spotify and Qobuz. Nearfield will give you a lot more detail than farfield, also helps to dial out room effects. Also, I assume that you are listening seated. I think you will find a big improvement with the toe in. Sandy

Is it just a coincidence that the prior Saturday roundup forum has an owner of Focals who complains that his speakers are too bright.   Most people claimed it was the beryllium tweeter and design.  Opposite sound of the Golden Ears. 

could be a speaker/room interaction.

Thanks everyone for their feedback; some really thoughtful comments. I’ve learned a lot during this process. Before this thread, I used to think my room is what it is but knew I wasn’t maximizing the potential of my components. I realize now I have to find solutions to the obstacles getting in the way of a next level audio experience. Going by Magnolia today to learn more about their room treatment service and probably schedule a consultation. They don’t sell anything that would improve my situation without improving the listening room itself, so not worried about this being a process to sell me audio equipment. 

For detail and imaging, without the harshness I've heard with some of the titanium tweeter speakers I've auditioned, for the price I've not found anything even close to the price that sound as full musical and detailed, nor with as large and well placed stage as the Maggies. Unlike what some have said, in my set up, my little 1.7s are not head in a vice directional at all. In fact the imaging, instruments and vocals stay in place in the space they belong, regardless of where the listener sets or stands. It all has to do with how you set them up. Even a fraction of an inch can make a difference. 

I agree with others - regardless of what you settle on, the cables need to be as short as possible and your seating position much closer. With my Maggies and with most other speakers, is about 120% of the distance between the speakers. Say, if center to center distance between speakers is 8' then ideal seating distance from the front of speakers would be between nine and ten ft. - just my 2 cents

 Best of luck....Jim

The forte iiis have a ton of detail! I couldn't get them to work right in my space (much smaller than yours), but they are dynamic and detailed and can be driven with 1 wpc. As my first high end speaker, they were a revelation. Finicky as hell to place though. 

Wondering why no one has chimed in on your 40' run of AudioQuest "construction rated wire" 14 gauge speaker wire? I have never heard of that and am familiar with AQ and have tried their wire for a short time and replaced it, but any wire at that length isn't good for quality audio. To each is own, but try and shorten that gap much more, even just for trial and error purposes with your equipment to speakers.

@loudspeaker77 is this the Sandy Gross? If so, cool. Thanks for chiming in. If not, that’s still some excellent info you passed along about the GE’s I’ve never had them toed in as you mentioned and will definitely experiment with that as well as finding a way to shorten the distance of my listening position. I have a way to eliminate about 15’ of speaker wire. Not sure how much it will help but part of the process. If not, I’ll have to figure out how to move the speakers to another position in my room to significantly shorten the wire and to afford an upgrade to a better quality. I agree with the active bass. Just turn it down if too bassy and it’s nice to have for making adjustments as needed. I’m not a speaker frequency expert but flatter does seem better for more flexibility and less listening fatigue. The search is one for a better DAC and do think that will help. If this is Sandy, let me know. You may know the person who came by my house to assess my system from the audiophile industry. 

Hi, The Triton One's are really quite linear, in fact almost ruler flat from 100Hz to 10 kHz. There is a slight rise above 10 kHz. Have a look at the measurements in the Stereophile review. Clearly much more linear than the B&W. In terms of any comments regarding accentuated bass, this really depends on where the bass level is set on the back of the speakers. The Triton Ones have a powered bass section with a level control. I find it amusing when people comment on the sound of my speakers that have a powered bass section with a level control as having too much bass, as there is a level control which allows them to be properly tuned for both the room as well as personal taste, which does vary greatly. Too much bass, too dark, turn it down.
   However set up is always important. The speakers are designed to be flat on axis, and should be set up toe'd in fully and pointed directly at the center listening position. This is very important in terms of realizing the full detail potential, as well as the best imaging and the biggest sweet spot. In the case of what is being described here, 40 feet of in-wall grade speaker wire will definitely degrade things detail-wise and in many other ways as well. Also, the nature of the program source as well as the decoding DAC. I don't know all the specifics but the dealer may have been using a hi-res version, or a better one than you have at home. Also the Mytek is probably a better DAC. Sitting 20 feet away from the speakers vs 8 feet will definitely degrade things as well as let the room get more involved. I think that the Gryphon may be somewhat more detailed than the Mc, however I don't think that is the major factor at play: toe-in, listening distance, 40 feet of install grade speaker wire and program material/DAC. Of course, each to his own. The B&Ws are certainly excellent speakers, but if you look at the response graphs, clearly not nearly as linear as the Triton Ones. Here personal preference gets involved, however properly set up the Triton Ones are very linear, very smooth, very natural and very musical. Sandy Gross

My 50 dollars used speakers rightfully embed sound better than any speakers i listen to in my life , not because they are better than my late Tannoy dual gold or some magnepan....But because they are rightfully embed mechanically, electrically and acoustically.... It takes me 2 years of listening experiments to figure it out.... The total cost was peanuts...

Many speakers are better than mine but none put me on my ass because of the ratio S.Q./price.... My low cost speakers are unbeattable and i dont need to upgrade a good sound to a marginally better one for at least 10 times the price....

The piano is already in my room without coming from my speakers with a natural timbre then why upgrading?

Draw your conclusion, mine is take care of the vibrations/resonance problems, take care of the electrical noise floor of the house and system, take care of the acoustic and prepare yourself to be amazed by your previously unsatisfying audio system now transformed....

Upgrading to reach audio experience is half truth and half truth are more misleading than lie...

My post will be useful only for some newcomer to audio, others will never be tired to upgrade, unsatisfied most of the times or satisfied by a very costly audio system because they can pay for it anyway....


:)

Thanks @nordicnorm! One of the legacy dealers of audiophile equipment in San Antonio came by earlier to try and set up my Well Tempered Classic ( this is a project and another interesting journey). After determining he needed more research to set up the WT he asked me to turn on my system so he could give it a listen. He didn’t knock the layout of the room but thought my speakers were too far apart and urged me to move up my listening position. He also thought my long speaker run were taking away some the dynamics. He said the speaker in my guitar amp and computer speakers could contribute to creating subtle distortion. Interesting. He also moved the GE’s further way from the wall and toed them more. I could hear the difference right away. We listened to Yes (CD) , Afro-American AllStars (HAPZ1 server) and the Stones Sympathy recording on vinyl. Everything sounded better. The guiro percussion instrument on Sympathy stood out more too. He liked the GE’s. Thought they were smooth. Not sure they’re better than the 805’s. Looking forward to doing a side by side. He also mentioned some about my McIntosh 152 amp that’s been brought up before. He says the frequency range is more conservative on McIntosh amps than other designs so that could indeed contribute to higher frequency instruments not popping like with other amps such as the Gryphon I heard the 805’s through. So, now I may be amp shopping too, lol. 

Some goods points here.

@pcrhkr

"The room, the long speaker wire runs. Speaker placement, room acoustics. A pair of Radio Shack speakers in a good acoustical room will sound better than $10,000 speakers in a bad room with long speaker runs and poor speaker placement."

Absolutely.


@ishkabibil,

"Your search for real detail will lead to listener fatigue!

Dont be impressed by a 30 second sound clip!"


A real danger.

There was a great comment (posted on YouTube by Hal Pearson) that I try to keep in mind.

He wrote:

"The best advice I ever got was to chase tonal accuracy and everything else will follow. Chase detail and nothing else will."

I'm loving following the OP's speaker journey here!

You are approaching it very sensibly. It will only be once you hear a pair of speakers in *your* room that you will be able to tell how it will perform (although room treatment can help significantly).

You mentioned Martin Logan's. I find ML's to be very revealing and detailed. My audio buddy came over to listen to my system (ML Spires). He exclaimed "I've always read about reviews where they talk about hearing the individual notes and I never knew what they meant - until now."

I would advise you stay away from the Vantage and instead look for Spires. They can occasionally be found used within your budget.

Be forewarned though - ML's require at least 3 feet of space between them and the nearest wall.

Good luck in your journey!

The room, the long speaker wire runs.  Speaker placement, room acoustics. A pair of Radio Shack speakers in a good acoustical room will sound better than $10,000 speakers in a bad room with long speaker runs and poor speaker placement.

Diamond are forever!  Nothing does what the 800 series diamonds do...ethereal!!

Diamonds are forever !  Nothing does what the 800 series Diamonds do in the highs....ethereal!!

Your search for real detail will lead to listener fatigue!

Dont be impressed by a 30 second sound clip!

@geof3 Yeah, I was surprised when I put a measuring tape to it. I’ve got furniture I the way that puts my listening chair at that distance. My sons used to use this room a lot but don’t any more so time to maybe get rid of some furniture and rearrange the space. The acoustic room analysis will probably force me to make some changes. 
@jp-2213 Could be the Gryphon is a better amp. And, could be the McIntosh isn’t a good match for the GE’s. The owner of the 805’s thinks they are on the brighter side but “the raw power of the McIntosh should tame it.” It’ll be nice to hear through my system if that’s the case. I did learn during the audition he was streaming songs through Tidal and his MYTEK Brooklyn. I think finding the right speakers for me is first on the list along with getting the room acoustics sorted out. IMO, tweaks with amps or cables, interconnects, etc. accentuate the fundamental sound of the speakers. @jaulbrich the 804’s might be an option if I like the 805’s in my system. The extra woofer in the 804’s might help in a room my size. 
Still thinking about the Dynaudio S5.4’s. Any thoughts on those? 

I have both B&W's 802's and Dynaudio's Special 40's.  They are both great speakers.  I run a single JL sub with the Dynaudio's and it is amazing how big they sound.  That said, it will depend on the room size and sitting position.  Years ago, I ran 805's with a Velodyne sub and it was amazing, but in a 11x10 room.  What about used B&W 804's?

Is it possible that the Diablo just smokes the Mac combo when it comes to resolution and detail? Or the “warmth” of the Mac gear paired with the Golden Ear’s is too much of a good thing?

Not to throw controversy out there, but speaker cables, interconnects, power cables can make a significant difference in the “tuning” of a given system. Try the Cable Companies lending library to demo a few options....

Best,
-JP

@bfoura: your listening position is 20’ from your speakers? Wow... that’s deep. Can you possibly cut that in half? Even temporarily? That can make ALL the difference along with the other suggestions. Also, speaker cables can make a significant difference too, but with your difficult room, that can be a very expensive proposition. Good luck with the 805’s. Very nice sounding speaker.

A single Subwoofer makes a big difference ...

Breaking news. The owner of the 805’s I listened to is going to let me demo them at my house for a few days. Can’t get them till Sunday. That will answer a lot of questions about whether it’s my room, the speakers or maybe both. @chorus I hear what you’re saying about floor and stand mounts. His stand mounts sounded good in his room but do have concerns if stand mounts can hang in my space and told the owner as so much to manage expectations. Not too enthused about adding a sub. So, while it’s obvious I’m intrigued by the 805 sound, I’m also open to other options that make sense. Before the GE’s a had a pair of Cornwall’s I really enjoyed but wanted to try a “modern” speaker. A local audio store will let me demo the Forte III’s and those are in my price range. It’s been a while since I had horn speakers and can’t recall if they have the detail I’m seeking. 

Bafra,

I can surmise from your comments that you are an intelligent fellow
who is not to be swayed by some of the comments above.
Floorstanders-yes. Standmounts-not for primary system REGARDLESS
of room size. Now that may ignite a sh-t-storm of replies. 
Never listened to B&W. Actually I go out of my way to avoid listening
to anything with an aesthetic I do not want to look at. Just me.

@bfoura,

As an owner of a pair of B&W 805d3's, I believe you are hearing the difference between your Golden Ear's and the 805's. I auditioned the 805d3's in the same room with the same front end electronics playing the same music against Golden Ears, Paradigms, MartinLogans, KEF, Dynaudios, and a few others. There was no contest in terms of detail, balance and presence.

I listen to the 805d3's continuously and have never felt any listening fatigue. I have, however, added a subwoofer since the 805d3's do need some help in the lower frequencies.

Pi*r^2
calculate 1, then 2, then subtract.
Now you have the volume of air moved. Of course there are myriad other factors from magnet efficiency to rigidity to.....
But if all you're asking about is diameter, there you go.

@fatdaddy The 3.5’ wall angles up to 9’ and the tapers down to 8’ on the opposite wall. Th room is 13.5 wide and 26’ long. My listening position is about 20’ from the speakers. So, it’s not a traditional listen set up but what I have to work with for now. Whether I move on to other speakers or not, I’m going to bring someone in to help with room analysis and correction. From this post seems that’s going to help either way. I also agree with other opinions that the GE’s are not tuned to accentuate certain frequencies I’m seeking right now. I was fine with my GE’s but after hearing the B&W’s I felt like I’m missing something that I want from listening to music, so I’m going through a process to learn more. I wouldn’t say I’m looking for a speaker that provides for Uber-detail. However, I would like to hear music with a certain degree of instrument separation, as if you we’re listening live. I think a lot of us are looking for that. The question is what’s getting in the way of getting there. 

“I chased detail (the more the better) for many years until I realized that musicality and tonal balance should have been my pursuit.“... ditto.  Musicality, tonality, and emotional connection.  Dynamics have been eeking in there as well.  Having a full, rich, detailed sound at low volumes in another.


@bfoura, you already know that you like the B&W’s, pull the trigger on one of those suggested pairs!  B&W makes a fine speaker, especially the ones you are looking at!  You may want to add a sub or two down the road but no biggie

Indeed audio system +room are more akin to a musical instrument than to a microscope for the ears....

Engineering marketting is one thing, audio experience another that ask for the integration of more factors than only engineering electronical feat and technical progress...

audiokinesis2,463 posts11-10-2020 10:34pm"....In particular notice the 6 dB peak at 10 kHz. Imo that might make a percussion instrument pop out of the mix."

That certainly explains the hyper-detail of the B&W 805s compared to the GET1s.

I chased detail (the more the better) for many years until I realized that musicality and tonal balance should have been my pursuit.

I too am unimpressed with GE Triton Ones, having worked at a dealership for several years. At that store, Paradigm was my go-to.  Now I will mention the Revel F208, a big beefy floorstander with great detail, clarity, low end sock, and a reasonable price. Give them a listen, and ditto the advice on room treatment and positioning. 

I just listen to this Rolling Stone song ...

And i perceive clearly at the left this drumming hand sounds...

The problem is probably not your speakers that seems good one but the acoustical control of the room....

I know that for a fact because there is NO relation between my speakers S.Q. before and after i have work the acoustical embedding with passive materials but mainly with active device control....Absolutely no relation....

The choice of speakers, if they are relatively good one to begin with, is LESS impactful than the rightfully acoustical embedding, and also of the mechanical and electrical embeddings.... Alas! most dont know that.....Dont upgrade your component but think about acoustical treatment and control....

For most the only way to live an audiophile S.Q. is throwing a lot of money in upgrade, this is a myth, and an half truth....Taking care of vibration/ resonance, of the noise floor of the house and of the acoustical dimensions are the true keys....

My best to you.....