Too many variables here to even begin to assess what’s causing the differences you heard. How big was the demo room you listened in and how close were you to the speakers? What electronics were the 805s being driven by, and what other equipment is in your system?
Looking for more detail in a speaker
Kind of a long first post but needed the space to set up my situation.
I decided to do something about my speaker situation after demoing a pair of B&W 805d’s. One of the tracks played was Sympathy for the Devil. At the beginning of the song, a percussion instrument, either a guiro or cabasa, just popped out at me on the left speaker. I’ve heard that song a million times but never noticed that percussion instrument coming at me like that. I came home and played the track through my system, through my streamer and turntable. My speakers are Golden Ear Triton One’s. That same presentation just isn’t there like with those 805’s.
The GET1’s are certainly decent speakers; are they not designed for this type of detailed presentation? Is it my room? My listening room is a odd shaped man attic with a 3.5’ wall on one side with an 8’ wall on the other side peaking a 9’ in the middle. My listening position is about 17’ from the speakers. I’m sure the room is acoustically challenged. Also, I have a long speaker wire run, like 40’. Does that contribute to the lack of detail? I figured out a way to trim about 15’ of speaker wire length from each run and plan to do that ASAP. I’m using AudioQuest construction rated wire. I believe they’re 14 gauge.
So, why not buy the 805’s? I’ve thought seriously about them but concerned they’ll be kind of small for my room. Seems like I need floor standers. I’d like to keep any replacement speakers at $4k. I have an opportunity to pick up a pair of Dynaudio S5.4s for $4k but haven’t made a move in them yet.
Any suggestions on a speaker selection or adjustments to my room or speaker wire are appreciated. To sum it up, I’m looking for more instrument detail with good sound staging either by making tweaks to my current set up or getting another flavor of speakers. Thx.
I decided to do something about my speaker situation after demoing a pair of B&W 805d’s. One of the tracks played was Sympathy for the Devil. At the beginning of the song, a percussion instrument, either a guiro or cabasa, just popped out at me on the left speaker. I’ve heard that song a million times but never noticed that percussion instrument coming at me like that. I came home and played the track through my system, through my streamer and turntable. My speakers are Golden Ear Triton One’s. That same presentation just isn’t there like with those 805’s.
The GET1’s are certainly decent speakers; are they not designed for this type of detailed presentation? Is it my room? My listening room is a odd shaped man attic with a 3.5’ wall on one side with an 8’ wall on the other side peaking a 9’ in the middle. My listening position is about 17’ from the speakers. I’m sure the room is acoustically challenged. Also, I have a long speaker wire run, like 40’. Does that contribute to the lack of detail? I figured out a way to trim about 15’ of speaker wire length from each run and plan to do that ASAP. I’m using AudioQuest construction rated wire. I believe they’re 14 gauge.
So, why not buy the 805’s? I’ve thought seriously about them but concerned they’ll be kind of small for my room. Seems like I need floor standers. I’d like to keep any replacement speakers at $4k. I have an opportunity to pick up a pair of Dynaudio S5.4s for $4k but haven’t made a move in them yet.
Any suggestions on a speaker selection or adjustments to my room or speaker wire are appreciated. To sum it up, I’m looking for more instrument detail with good sound staging either by making tweaks to my current set up or getting another flavor of speakers. Thx.
90 responses Add your response
As they say, “it’s complicated.” The owner was using a Gryphon Diablo 300 amp, along with some high end speaker wires about 8ft run each. We were about 7-8’ feet from the 805’s. He was streaming through his Apple computer. Don’t know his preamp. I have a McIntosh MC152 amp, C48 preamp, a Mc MB 50 Steamer and a Technics 1200G table with Cadenza Black cart. I think that’s a decent enough system to squeeze some detail out of speakers. Just don’t know how much room dynamics factor with speakers like the GE’s. |
Take a look at the on-axis frequency response curve of the 805 D3: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements In particular notice the 6 dB peak at 10 kHz. Imo that might make a percussion instrument pop out of the mix. Duke |
Always consider the room as the first place to make things better. Otherwise, I agree with Duke. Certain speakers are tuned exactly to be "revealing" but I call it "accentuating" certain types of sounds. Not very neutral, can get tiresome over time. So I would never suggest you trade because one brand did 1 note more noticeably than your current speakers. |
Bring your listening position to 10' from the speakers. Put your speakers 10' apart (measured at the center of the tweeter). Position yourself 10' from an imaginary plane between the tweeters, dead center. Angle both speakers so you can see just a sliver of the inside wall of each speaker at your listening position. Also, adjust your listening position so your ear (height from the the floor) is as close as the tweeter height is from the floor. Do not use a cloth covered , high back chair for listening. I would also suggest shorter, higher quality speaker cables, but only after you have done all of the above. |
I do not think any of the good dynamic loudspeakers corner the marker on detail. They are all about the same in that regard. It is all a matter of frequency response and where the peaks and dips are. For better transient response you have to move to a planar speaker , horn or ESL but your budget won't allow for this. Room alterations to quiet reflections will certainly add to detail as will the ability to monkey around with frequency response but that has to be done in the digital domain. Check out a DEQX Premate. So unless you are prepared to move to a different type of speaker. Working with the room and/or digital EQ are the way to go. |
When I have heard them at shows or dealership the Golden Ear towers have sounded holistically to my ears as much "darker" speakers in terms of overall balance of frequency spectrum. Unless a speaker has attenuation to adjust the balance of driver output, your stuck with the tuning of the designer. Overall, the Golden Ear product line reminds me of the tonal character of Vandersteen, weighted toward the bottom end. I’m not interested in debating that. The balance has been so heavy that to date I have not been motivated to review Golden Ear speakers. The impression I have from these hearing events is that they would have impressive low end, but may struggle to get them to open up with an extreme degree of delicacy in the high end. The more I hear of tiny 1" ribbons, the less impressed I am with them, regardless of brand. Having been an owner of the Legacy Audio Whisper and going through the conversion of the speaker from the old ribbon tweeter to the new 1" super tweeter and the 4" tweeter, it was a prodigious improvement in the upper end, with a much higher degree of deftness to the treble, and balancing better the top/bottom ends. Feel free to read my review of it at Dagogo.com for insight. Now, having said all that, the GE is a terrific bargain! Hard to get frumpy about a speaker that gives so much for the dollar! But, when you spread out the cost on SO many big goals, there will be some lack of refinement. YMMV |
Thanks for all the feedback. Seems there’s a lot of emphasis on speaker placement and listening position. I would have to really think outside the box to change things in my listening room make some of the suggestions happen. I did tweak speaker position and moved about 10’ to listen to the GE’s but there really was no change in detail with the Sympathy ‘reference’ track that put me on this journey. I did order the System Solution set up disc from Nordost. Maybe that will help. I tend to agree with Douglas in that the GE’s gravitate toward being a darker speaker. Never thought about it but think there’s something there. The lack of the separation I heard from the GE’s on the more delicate higher frequency instruments may be by design. The GE’s are fine speakers but hearing that detail in the 805’s got me excited about that type of presentation. There are plenty of options on the used market for my $4K target budget to try planar’s, horns or other some other design. Any suggestions on speakers or placement tweaks continue to be appreciated. |
Clean your stylus. Clean your ears (Debrox or professionally). Clean all cable contacts. Invest in a Walker Talisman. Demagnetize cables and cords, get them off the floor. Use the Talisman on all music sources and electronics; you will hear the difference! Use an air ionizer in the room, 15 minutes before listening to music. Quality sound is there, right in your present room, simply waiting to be discovered... |
@mijostyn, ’I do not think any of the good dynamic loudspeakers corner the marker on detail. They are all about the same in that regard. It is all a matter of frequency response and where the peaks and dips are.’ @audiokinesis , ’Take a look at the on-axis frequency response curve of the 805 D3: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements In particular notice the 6 dB peak at 10 kHz. Imo that might make a percussion instrument pop out of the mix.’ Yes, it’s all about frequency response. Designers are notorious for deliberately peaking and dipping FR to either draw attention to - or draw attention away from certain aspects of performance. So when a reviewer mentions how they can hear the pianist’s fingernails clicking and clacking against the keys, or a guitarist’s fingers sliding up and down the frets, it might be worth taking a closer look at the FR. Some studio monitors are said to be tailored to give an exaggerated /unnatural view into the mix. You wouldn’t want that in a domestic monitor. Genuine improvements in resolution are few and far between. Even my portable Sony radio offers great resolution in the midband (even if that’s all it does). Ribbon tweeters and exotic tweeter dome materials are often said to offer better HF resolution but not everyone agrees, or even wants it. Ditto for improved low noise cabinets which will let you better hear what the drive units are doing. A bit like getting the car exhaust fixed and then being able to hear all kinds of previously unnoticed cabin noises. |
Yeah speaker tuning is likely a major difference maker, and my experience with McIntosh gear is that it’s not very aggressive in the upper presence region either so the combo of the two makes your impressions very understandable. Given your budget, I’ll just throw out there that LSA is selling their speakers at a discount here, and their flagship LSA-20 Statement speakers are right at your $4k budget. The reason I mention them is I think their sound profile and imaging strengths may well appeal to your tastes (you can read reviews), and they offer a 30-day, in-home trial if you’re up for it. They also come with a nice pair of 8ft speaker cables that I suppose you could sell to reduce the net cost of the speakers if you can’t use’em. Just a wacky thought FWIW. |
I have what I’ll call a legacy audio dealer/audiophile coming by my house tomorrow to do me a favor and set up a Well Tempered Classic table for me. I told him about my speaker situation and room dynamics. He thinks the odd room layout may actually help the acoustics. He also said speaker placement and set up is critical. It’ll be interesting to get his take once he sees and hears everything. I like what @CD318 says about FR. need to study up on that more. I also think there’s something to low noise cabinet design for my listening room. I think I might benefit from having the sound project more toward me rather being more dispersed, which I think the GE’s are designed to do with their side drivers. @soix I’ll look into LSA’s. I don’t want to make a speaker change without hearing them in my room or at least in person somewhere. A 30 day trial is something to consider. |
I agree that it was just the way the 805D was “voiced”. Probably a certain range of frequencies were elevated. There are many variables for sure though. Everything was different... It also could have to do with the B&W’s being more open which in turn allows to hear more clearly the underlying tones and get a better understanding of an instrument. A few pairs of speakers you might want to check out are: -Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signatures. Theres a pair for $3500 in zebrawood. You’ll have to talk the srller into shipping though. Each speaker uses 5 seas excel drivers. Seas excel are awesome drivers and are used in many great sounding, expensive speakers. -Paradigm Tributes. Theres a pair here on Audiogon for $2750. These are also awesome sounding speakers and use a very nice sounding Beryllium Tweeter. -Those Dyn’s you are considering look to be nice as well but the driver configuration is a bit strange... not sure how they’d sound while walking around the room with the tweeters so low. Dynaudio makes a great product though. Really well designed and built! I think any of these 3 speakers I mentioned would be a step up in refinement from the GE’s. |
@bfoura, Guiro is listed in a mid (400 - 4000 Hz) frequency range ("the default value is 2500 Hz.") while the most emphasis for room treatment is for a range of less than 400 Hz. The noted difference you hear may be due to system Components like a DAC (or Pre Amp / Phono Pre Amp) for example. Don't be too quick to fault speakers as the focus. Volume can have an effect on perceived quality as well. Experiment with the distance between L / R position for best perceived power output ... |
@b_limo thanks for the speaker recommendations. Would prefer to hear in person before buying but I’ll do some research determine if any of those are worthy of taking a chance. Your word ‘refinement’ nails what I’m looking for in my GE’s by making some adjustments or going with another speaker. To me, that’s what I liked hearing from the 805’s. @rego, you make a good point about the source and components. Not sure if the res of the file. Seems like he was using his Apple Music library but could have been something else. I did stream that song through Tidal in my system but wasn’t the same as the audition. @ebm Magico’s are out of reach at this point in my life. A local dealer who carries Magico’s also has Spendor A2’s and A3’s and Davone Twists that I could demo and closer to my budget. Any thoughts on those for more refined speakers than the GE’s? |
Well bfoura, If you are game look for a pair of used Magnepan 3.7i's. If they do not show any signs of damage and the Tweeter works you are in business. The trade off will be less deep bass but the mid bass is very detailed and in the minds of many makes up for the loss. You can always add subwoofers down the line. Most of us once competent with panels will not use anything else. Some turn out not to like them usually for aesthetic reasons. A lot of us think they are sharp looking. Good luck getting it sorted out. Do check o ut the DEQX premate. |
@mijostyn, Others have suggested Maggie’s as something I might like. They pop up for sale fairly often in San Antonio and Austin. Available now is a pair of Martin Logan Vantage. How close would those get to the 3.7i’s in detail or resolution? They’re also active so bass wouldn’t be an issue. @rgs92 I’ll look into the Karma but have also been thinking about DACs options available other than what’s in my C48. Going down that route opens up a whole nother can of worms. I also listen to a lot of vinyl and the would have to sell my C48 to get a phono preamp. I like the functionality that the C48 offers but everything is on the table right now. @sounds_real_audio what high resolution speaker do you have in mind for around $4k or so? |
Treat the room first. Worry about equipment after. I went thru a journey with the same issue (s). Treated the room, dialed in the listening position & everything was magnitudes better before I changed out some critical pieces. Then we moved. I'm back to square one. So.... treat the room first. Good luck - its a long but fun process. Not terribly expensive if you are a little handy & have some basic tools. |
"
Designers are notorious for deliberately peaking and dipping FR to
either draw attention to - or draw attention away from certain aspects
of performance.
" Tuning a speaker to a "house sound" is one thing. If certain frequencies are all but inaudible as in the OPs case, thats another thing all together. If you paid a couple grand for a pair of speakers with frequency holes like that, you may have made a purchasing error. |
@bobinwi I’ll get some solid advice on room acoustics when my friend comes over to set up my TT. I was at Best Buy Magnolia recently and the rep said they offer a no cost estimate on room treatment service. They need to come to the house and do an assessment for the estimate. I’m giving that some thought now. Anybody use Magnolia for that service? |
There's a pair of 805 D2s for sale on this very site for $3200: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa6a06-b-w-bowers-wilkins-805-d2-diamond-bookshelf-speakers-pair... B&W speakers are highly detailed. Some say fatiguing after long listening but they need to be balanced with the right front end. I ran a pair of CM 5s for years and found them very enjoyable. Demo'd a pair of 802 Ds for fun a while back and had the same experience you did listening to Aja by Steely Dan. Heard fine details that I'd never noticed before. I was considering stepping up to 805s but found a good deal on some Magicos but if you like the 805s, take the ones above or there's this pair of 805 D3s with stands for $4500: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa2hg5-b-w-bowers-wilkins-805-d3-with-original-stands-monitors |
@redwoodaudio I have done some of that. I have an AQ Niagara 1200 along with a NRGZ cord from the outlet to the Niagara and an NRGZ from the Niagara to my amp. I also replace all applicable wall outlets with Pangea Audio Premier outlets. So, I have a foundation for cleaner power and want to do even more which is why I’d like to keep my speaker budget in check. @diamonddupree thanks for the heads up on the 805’s for sale. I’ll check them out. @millercarbon it’s the lava lamp that makes that system 😎. |
Bfoura - I guess I would listen to what BB Magnolia has to say but I would certainly do my research first. There's alot of science to room acoustics. Reflections, nodes, resonances, echoes - in a crappy room everything sounds like sh1t. Everyone's favorite brand sounds crummy in a crummy room. Maybe the Magnolia service is much better than the average Best Buy - I have never been a fan of their stores. Best of luck - it will be interesting to see if they advise you on room treatments or if they try to push more electronics. |
Not knowing from your description if the 805 audition was using your same Mac streaming as a source, but if not, the DAC used in the audition was likely a large contributing factor to the pronounced percussion on SFTD. You have a 3.5' wall? If the attic room is that small, a system with stand-mounted speakers, augmented with subwoofer(s) if needed would give you more placement options than large floor-standers. Get a good DAC between your Mac and amplification. This will make more difference than doing a lot of speaker swapping. |
The comments on the Triton are spot and make sense. The venerable designer Sandy Gross founded Def Tech and it was the same there - emphasis on deep bass in tower speakers at the expense of the rest of the curve - high volume, dig low, hit hard was the mantra. I demoed the $10k Reference recently and walked away thinking great for home theater just like my previous BP7000’S (and the BP3000 if anyone remembers those beasts) - The most detailed speakers I ever demoed were Wilsons but unless you want a used ~15 year old model, they are Uber expensive but hold their value better than most given the older models’ cult like status. |
I just listen to this Rolling Stone song ... And i perceive clearly at the left this drumming hand sounds... The problem is probably not your speakers that seems good one but the acoustical control of the room.... I know that for a fact because there is NO relation between my speakers S.Q. before and after i have work the acoustical embedding with passive materials but mainly with active device control....Absolutely no relation.... The choice of speakers, if they are relatively good one to begin with, is LESS impactful than the rightfully acoustical embedding, and also of the mechanical and electrical embeddings.... Alas! most dont know that.....Dont upgrade your component but think about acoustical treatment and control.... For most the only way to live an audiophile S.Q. is throwing a lot of money in upgrade, this is a myth, and an half truth....Taking care of vibration/ resonance, of the noise floor of the house and of the acoustical dimensions are the true keys.... My best to you..... |
I too am unimpressed with GE Triton Ones, having worked at a dealership for several years. At that store, Paradigm was my go-to. Now I will mention the Revel F208, a big beefy floorstander with great detail, clarity, low end sock, and a reasonable price. Give them a listen, and ditto the advice on room treatment and positioning. |
audiokinesis2,463 posts11-10-2020 10:34pm"....In particular notice the 6 dB peak at 10 kHz. Imo that might make a percussion instrument pop out of the mix." That certainly explains the hyper-detail of the B&W 805s compared to the GET1s. I chased detail (the more the better) for many years until I realized that musicality and tonal balance should have been my pursuit. |
“I chased detail (the more the better) for many years until I realized that musicality and tonal balance should have been my pursuit.“... ditto. Musicality, tonality, and emotional connection. Dynamics have been eeking in there as well. Having a full, rich, detailed sound at low volumes in another. @bfoura, you already know that you like the B&W’s, pull the trigger on one of those suggested pairs! B&W makes a fine speaker, especially the ones you are looking at! You may want to add a sub or two down the road but no biggie |
@fatdaddy The 3.5’ wall angles up to 9’ and the tapers down to 8’ on the opposite wall. Th room is 13.5 wide and 26’ long. My listening position is about 20’ from the speakers. So, it’s not a traditional listen set up but what I have to work with for now. Whether I move on to other speakers or not, I’m going to bring someone in to help with room analysis and correction. From this post seems that’s going to help either way. I also agree with other opinions that the GE’s are not tuned to accentuate certain frequencies I’m seeking right now. I was fine with my GE’s but after hearing the B&W’s I felt like I’m missing something that I want from listening to music, so I’m going through a process to learn more. I wouldn’t say I’m looking for a speaker that provides for Uber-detail. However, I would like to hear music with a certain degree of instrument separation, as if you we’re listening live. I think a lot of us are looking for that. The question is what’s getting in the way of getting there. |
@bfoura, As an owner of a pair of B&W 805d3's, I believe you are hearing the difference between your Golden Ear's and the 805's. I auditioned the 805d3's in the same room with the same front end electronics playing the same music against Golden Ears, Paradigms, MartinLogans, KEF, Dynaudios, and a few others. There was no contest in terms of detail, balance and presence. I listen to the 805d3's continuously and have never felt any listening fatigue. I have, however, added a subwoofer since the 805d3's do need some help in the lower frequencies. |
Bafra, I can surmise from your comments that you are an intelligent fellow who is not to be swayed by some of the comments above. Floorstanders-yes. Standmounts-not for primary system REGARDLESS of room size. Now that may ignite a sh-t-storm of replies. Never listened to B&W. Actually I go out of my way to avoid listening to anything with an aesthetic I do not want to look at. Just me. |
Breaking news. The owner of the 805’s I listened to is going to let me demo them at my house for a few days. Can’t get them till Sunday. That will answer a lot of questions about whether it’s my room, the speakers or maybe both. @chorus I hear what you’re saying about floor and stand mounts. His stand mounts sounded good in his room but do have concerns if stand mounts can hang in my space and told the owner as so much to manage expectations. Not too enthused about adding a sub. So, while it’s obvious I’m intrigued by the 805 sound, I’m also open to other options that make sense. Before the GE’s a had a pair of Cornwall’s I really enjoyed but wanted to try a “modern” speaker. A local audio store will let me demo the Forte III’s and those are in my price range. It’s been a while since I had horn speakers and can’t recall if they have the detail I’m seeking. |