Maybe someone can enlighten me.

@cleeds 

Excellent idea!  Can I list you as a sponsor?

mdalton

... I’m a big believer in the sentiments contained in John Donne’s famous Devotions (replace “church” with Audiogon, lol!): “The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions ...

Good grief.

If you genuinely want to be allowed to draft changes to the forum's rules you should probably contact the moderators. Otherwise you are spinning your wheels.

@cleeds 

Im actually not upset at all.  I have no dog in this fight.  It is true that I don’t think a flat-out political ban is necessary, but I would be perfectly happy to continue as a satisfied audiogon member under one.  I have dispassionately pointed out what appears to be the inconsistent application of ambiguous rules that has, however, upset some other members from time to time.  And I’m a big believer in the sentiments contained in John Donne’s famous Devotions (replace “church” with Audiogon, lol!):

“The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all. When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member…

Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell, that tells me of his affliction, digs out and applies that gold to me: if by this consideration of another's danger I take mine own into contemplation, and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.”

In other words, if with a minor tweak to the rules, we can address the concerns of some of our members, even if you are perfectly happy and don’t think it’s necessary, I think it’s worth doing.  Would you be less happy with clearer rules (that still preserve moderator discretion)?  Hard to see why.  So why not show a little empathy for others, and maybe even improve the forum while we’re at it? That’s all.

Like I said, I supported moderators’ choice to delete OP’s comment. 

But if I saw the exact same comment on another forum that doesn’t have audiogon’s recent history of political thread-jacking, I wouldn’t bat an eye. 

So these things are situational. The old story about the judge and pornography.

At the end of the day it is moderators’ call, which is expressed in forum guidelines.

mdalton

You just continue to miss the point ...

Not at all. You're upset over what you call "inconsistent moderator actions" and want to have a hand in drafting changes to the rules here.

I'm happy with the rules as they stand. They're not perfect, but allow the moderators to exercise discretion.

@cleeds 

You just continue to miss the point, though I’m sure it’s inadvertent.  I’ve shown how political discourse is happening on this site.  I’ve shown how inconsistent moderator actions are.  All I’m suggesting is if we don’t want politics, let’s make it clear, and let’s enforce it consistently.  And I would be happy to take a stab at drafting language that facilitates our intent.  I don’t see how that’s controversial in the least, unless somebody just wants to disagree to disagree.

+1 @devinplombier 

Seems best to avoid minefields 😉

@devinplombier 

But the issue remains, how do we want to handle it?  Under the current rules, if two or more posters have a reasonably polite political discussion, that’s allowed within the posted rules.  If they resort to name-calling and other personal invective, the moderators can and should shut that down, and that too is within the rules.  But to preemptively remove a post because somebody somewhere might disagree with an expressed sentiment, that is not within the rules (other that the catchall part that says moderators can do whatever they want when they want), and more importantly, seems completely unnecessary, bordering on nanny-statism.

@devinplombier, agreed!

I don't freak out when someone brings up something automotive, or sports related, or their favorite whisky, but for some reason politics is the third rail.

@hifiguy42 

The reason politics became a problem here was a dynamic tag team of users who would be triggered by the slightest mention of, say, tariffs, and proceeded to turn perfectly good threads into feces-flinging fests.

This has nothing to do with being off-topic. You can mention cars or bourbon all day long and nothing happens. Politics has become the 3rd rail because people made it.

Took the bait.

@hifiguy42 + 1 - That song was a huge hit, too.... 

@newton_john

I believe he was referencing a hit by the artist whose last name is your handle on this site. 

As to mixing topics, I think any rational adult can discuss more than one thing at a time and I'm bemused by those who don't. I don't freak out when someone brings up something automotive, or sports related, or their favorite whisky, but for some reason politics is the third rail. My theory is that people bristle at having to defend  indefensible positions. The fact that these discussions sometimes devolve into name calling and edge lord behavior doesn't mean they should be avoided at all costs, in fact just the opposite. Sunlight is still a fantastic disinfectant.

@mahler123 

Often.

What’s your problem?

The only reason I commented was that I thought we could be a little more tolerant of the OP’s position. He was only political in the most general sense. I was also suggesting we could be a little more chilled and stop the name calling. Is that not mellow?

​

"The beatings will continue until morale improves....."

I’ll surmise that anyone that posts here for any length of time will eventually trip the mods into a deletion of Something that strikes them as a boundary misstep.
It’s a edgy sort of gig riding herd on a group with conflicting views and opinions.

I don’t envy them, the sort of thing that endears no one....

Want to suggest a Prime movie spouse and I watched tonight, called Frequencies.

Not so much about audio, but it’ll tickle any thoughts about the human condition and what an alternative ’approach’ could entail.....

There’s an interesting end that might raise a smile....and we plan to watch it again....

So here’s a post from another current thread, that has not been taken down:

“No shock.  In the end, the American taxpayer will carry the burden.  Check out Jeffrey Sachs if you want to see the reality of US imposed tariffs.”

Way more political than the one discussed on this thread.  I don’t care myself - don’t think either should be removed - but it goes to my point.  Application and enforcement of non-existent rules is completely inconsistent, and arguably arbitrary and capricious.  So if you don’t want politics, have a rule.  Otherwise, let adults be adults (most of the time).

@cleeds 

To quote from A Few Good Men:

“you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like “honor”, “code”, loyalty.”  We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something.  You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.”

Great movie.

I recently had a post removed from another audio site for being too witty, though, that wasn’t the provided reason.

"Ah, come on!" was the reason provided.

The post was regarding synergy.  And while it was in direct response to another’s post, it may have been a bit off topic, as was his.  

@goldenways 

   "Gracious" did not upset me at all.  Why would you think that?   I am amazed that anyone would think the forum is simply an offering from your hosts.  Fyi here is the definition of gracious:

gracious (comparative more gracious, superlative most gracious)

1. kind and warmly courteous
2. tactful
3. compassionate
4. indulgent
5. benignant
6. full of grace; graceful; charming; elegant (in appearance, conduct, movement)

   The gracious movements of the figure skaters impressed the judges.

7. magnanimous, without arrogance or complaint, benevolently declining to raise controversy or insist on possible prerogatives.

   The actress's gracious acceptance of being named only in the end credits allowed her character's appearance in the episode to remain a surprise.

If you choose to believe that this definition explains the motivation for why this forum exists, that's okay.  Meanwhile your seat remains available on the turnip truck.  

@abnerjack Sorry I used the work “gracious” and upset you. My apologies. Thanks for the business model explanation. Gee whiz, I had no idea Audiogon had a motive behind this forum.

Well, there’s no doubt that the guidelines are poorly written, even if no one normally reads them. There’s also no doubt, in my mind at least, that the moderator made the right call deleting OP’s post. Granted his post made no overt political statement, but the dog whistle was deafening.

This whole thread is a bit of a tempest in a teapot, honestly. At the same time, having properly drafted guidelines / TOU isn't such a bad thing.

"Congrats and I feel ya. The current state of the country has stolen most of my joy."

I am surprised that A’gon would ad lib the above in a message intended to alert the OP that their post had been removed.

So many have taken to whining, complaining, fear mongering, victimhood, and playing the blame game, for just about any real, perceived, or imaginable hardship these days.  People can choose to be positive or negative about their lives, regardless of the challenges in their way.  Few people are in a situation that cannot be improved by taking initiative, hard work, and the willingness to make positive changes.  It isn’t always easy but taking personal responsibility goes a long way.  I don’t understand why this stuff has to keep coming up in a forum intended to discuss audio related topics.  Let’s get back to arguing about the price of fuses.

In the words of Oddball...

mdalton

... my original point, which is to just post the rules, whatever you want them to be ...

They have done exactly that. You don't seem to like the rules.

@mapman 

That seems a bit of a cop out.  It would be very easy to draft language, so to the moderators: I hereby volunteer.  Let me know if you’d like me to take a stab at it.  I’d be happy to draft alternative versions, from less flexible to more.  Just let me know.

The environment as a whole  is so toxic these days that can’t blame any business for wanting to steer clear 100%. That would include publishing rules that may tick people off right off the bat.  They have every right to do what’s best for business 
 

Sad but that is where we are these days.  We including businesses like agon are all the victims.   Hopefully we find a way to reduce the level of toxicity and find common ground to be more United rather than more  reasons to not even be able to have a discussion about things that matter to everyone, not just hifi enthusiasts. 
 

Meanwhile everyone is still free to make their own decisions regarding where they hang out or not and why. 

@mahler123 

Well now, see, the right of a shopowner to discriminate against certain people is somewhat controversial (carefully not taking a side here). Which brings me back to my original point, which is to just post the rules, whatever you want them to be.  Eliminates the ambiguity, and makes people feel less discriminated against.  I say we vote!  And anyone in Chicago gets two!

@abnerjack 

I can’t imagine that this forum makes a lot of money.  Perhaps the guests at a dinner party analogy, think of this place as a barely solvent convenience store, prone to attracting trouble making teenagers that scare away cash spending customers.  The management of the store has the right to hustle potential trouble makers along, because it’s their shop.

   If you need to discuss politics with every breath you take, or twitch of your typing fingers, there are are approximately 18 billion other sites where you can spend all day arguing with total strangers .  If you want to discuss audio issues, your choices are limited 

@newton_john 

Have you never been mellow?

"All submissions, whether they be questions or answers, are subject to moderation. Any designated moderator will have to the right to remove content that he or she deems inappropriate."

That’s all you need to know.

Their house, their backyard, their ball.

@mdalton 

You can’t have your cake and eat it too, right?

Oh, I disagree with that! 😂

Meanwhile, your post prompted me to look up Audiogon forum rules. Here they are in their entirety:

Guidelines

Goals of these discussions

Discuss the audiophile hobby

Share experiences with other audiophiles.

Share news about the high-end audio industry.

The Company: Audiogon, Inc.

 

The Service: Audiogon Discussion Forum

 

When you create your own personalized account, you may be able to provide "User Content". You are solely responsible for the User Content that you post, upload, link to or otherwise make available via the Service. You agree that we are only acting as a passive conduit for your online distribution and publication of your User Content. The Company, however, reserves the right to remove any User Content from the Service at its discretion.

 

All submissions, whether they be questions or answers, are subject to moderation. Any designated moderator will have to the right to remove content that he or she deems inaaproprate.

 

Prohibited content:

You will not submit content that is copyrighted or subject to third party proprietary rights, including privacy, publicity, trade secret, etc., unless you are the owner of such rights or have the appropriate permission from their rightful owner to specifically submit such content.

You will not post information that is malicious, false or inaccurate.

You will not post content that is sexually expicit.

You will not post content that is abusive or defames another member of The Service.

See also

https://www.audiogon.com/users/terms

http://support.audiogon.com/customer/portal/articles/237780-terms-of-use

I was very surprised to see that race, politics, or religion are not even mentioned. The concern about sexually explicit content is curious, given the largely older and 99.9% male audience, but I guess you’re never too careful.

In any event, you’re right and I stand corrected. The Audiogon forum rules are not only inadequate but, in this particular case, inconsistent with the enforcement actions being taken.

lol! just checked to see when was the last time I had a post removed, It was 8/6/24, for the following:

”lmao! When was the last time you got laid?”

Now that’s some serious street cred my friends.

@devinplombier 

Respectfully, I disagree.  The moderators have demonstrated that they can move quickly, if needed.  So why not post new rules?  The failure to do so simply allows the moderators to enforce unwritten, new rules inconsistently based upon their whims.  My own experience is that the moderators actually have their own political bias, and the absence of clarity allows them to “tilt the field.”  You can’t have your cake and eat it too, right?

@mdalton 

You make a good point about there not being clear guidelines. However, the way I look at it, rules are living documents that evolve with cultural mores. Maybe in the past passing political remarks were not a problem, so they were allowed, but that has clearly changed and they have become a source of problems, so that now they're banned. I would say that moderators' response was not inappropriate in this case.

@terraplane8bob 

I think the OP’s point was that the “guidelines” have actually not been made clear at all.  There is no rule regarding posts touching on politics, even if we think there should be.  Someone made a tortuous effort to equate the OP’s post to spam, ad nauseum, but to me, it’s pretty clear that the rules are unclear.  People on special interest forums discuss unrelated topics all the time.  Sharing your feelings, which may be influenced by the political environment, or the recent loss of your favorite sports team, the weather, or a recent diagnosis of cancer, all seem relevant to me.  That’s what happens in a community.  

+1 @waytoomuchstuff great job!  

My part time "gig" involves identifying, acknowledging, and celebrating our common links and connections. Forums like these make a difference, allowing us to bring out the best versions of ourselves. And allow others the opportunity to do the same.

Thanks to those who made positive comments about the post (typos and all).  Made my day.

Fabulous post, @waytoomuchstuff !  Exactly on point.

And then we may have many guests who insist on taking on host's duties.

Invited guests not vetted at this dinner party, perhaps some want this.

Yes it’s very sad that people are discouraged from talking  even civilly in public about important things that matter.   Is there something to hide??

@goodlistening64 + 1

This guest spends a lot of money. So I suppose that helps me be tolerated. 

"We are all guest at the dinner table and the gracious host can remove us out any time."

This forum has been replete with comments like the one above.  Yes, I suppose we could be considered guests, but remember, we are invited and sought after guests at this dinner party.  Anyone who thinks that this forum is a nice add on to this site due to the magnanimity of management is naive and maybe just fell off the turnip truck.  I could be wrong, but do you really think so?

Think about the business model here.  I am not at all intimately familiar with the owners/mangement of this operation, but it seems clear that their income is dependent  primarily on two things.  One, revenue they receive from the sale of items listed by sellers and two, income derived from advertisers.  

What this means is that Audiogon wants and needs us here.  If you and I come here to discuss audio matters, it is likely that we might look at classified ads and possibly buy or sell.  Of equal or more importance is the numbers we contribute to site traffic.  If, as the owner of a site like this, I want to sell my income opportunity to a prospective advertiser, I have to convince them that their ad will get exposure, based on large traffic numbers.  If I can cite large numbers, it obviously makes my site more appealing to the advertisers as their product is viewed by more possible customers.  

So please don't feel guilty about complaining about the way things are here,  You and I should be catered to at this dinner party, because the hosts want us to come back again.  I'm only guessing, but it seems to me that forum traffic is less than it has been in the past.  I hope I'm wrong, I think of this forum as a port in the storm and hope it does well.

Any side bets if and/or when this post or thread gets deleted?

@waytoomuchstuff ,

As I was too busy anally correcting the typo, I neglected to mention- terrific post!

RE " "Waytoomuchstuff".  An excellent post despite the convert/covert issue !  I was a member of a forum that involved all things TROMBONE !   It was great and drew comments from trombonists all over the world --- until --- someone decided to start posting political opinions.  The forum was trashed in short order.   I realize that there are members who just can help proselytizing the rest of the world as to their unassailable opinions.  But there we are !  When a forum has guidelines and they are disregarded, the moderators have no choice but to enforce those guidelines.  I may agree or disagree with the errant poster but that is not the issue.  The original guideline which we all agree to follow are there for a reason.

Regarding the Corvair Forum :  I owned several --- loved them and still miss them --- despite what Ralph Nader said !   Uh Oh !!   Did I cross a line ?

@waytoomuchstuff Outstanding post. Spoken  like a true gentleman! 

1 - "Stereophonic balloon is the function of how matched your left and Right speakers are, the recording trickery and how well controlled your room RT60 is."

2 - "@bobheinatz I see USHINDI woofers. that is a positive, but have they been implemented well is the next question. You can have the best transducers and the implementation can be terrible"

3 - "@kjl1065 you want the JBL 4367"

Is any of the above political comment too? Cos these are some of my comments that have being reported for deletion and being deleted

@thecarpathian 

"I believe you mean 'covert'."

Yes, you are correct.  Sorry about the typo.

Thanks for catching this.