More on XLR vs RCA considerations?

Well, xlr connection was primarily developed and used for live events and studios where there would be cables everywhere, for Balanced to be effective, all your system has to be truly balanced which means you use double number of parts, rca done right can sound excellent, just use good cables, not expensive, just well made .

Yes that is my experience - the cable transport itself does not matter too much, XLR versus RCA, for a home environment where runs are typically "short" (say 5 meters or less) and cables are shielded enough for the environment and signals carried.

HOWEVER, the circuitry engaged on either side of XLR & RCA I/O can vary a lot, and when the XLR path uses a symetrically "doubled" cricuit, and the RCA path uses only half of this, then it usually sounds better (sometimes significantly so) to go XLR, and often results in +6dB extra gain too.

Some circuits will take RCA input and invert / mirror it with an extra circuit (or opamp) to make a balanced signal, at slight perfromance penalty (versus the XLR input) - then run it through the balanced (doubled) circuitry all the same. Some will use an I/O transformer to do this on one of the other side (or both), adding the coloration of the transformer itself (which you may or may not like).

Then there are true differential inputs which are the only ones that don’t care what you feed into them. I have some high end headphone amps like this. You can feed in RCA or XLR with no difference in perfromance between them, and no penalty from extra inverter stages applied to unbalacned input sources. You can even send an unbalanced signal through its XLR inputs (e.g., via RCA -> XLR adapaters) and it’s fine too. Really cool; this is my favorite, though it is still not too common. Sometimes the amps like this are called Super Symmetry or SuSy, though that name is from Pass Labs. Pass Labs also has a different twist on its lower-level phono stages (Xono, XP-17), whereby the XLR *output* stage uses an extra inverter stage with +6dB gain. I haven’t directly compared them yet to determine if there’s a penalty to the XLR outs for this, but I can say both its RCA and XLR outputs sound excellent.

If you’re just "guessing" with unknown cricuitry, then usually the XLR path will sound better. But it’s not a guarantee.

On the cables themselves: I despise wrestling short, stiff XLR cables into place (pin alignment) - whereas an RCA conenctor can easily rotate-slide onto its jack from any angle! Audioquest’s later lines of XLR cables added a hard slippery nylon fiber net on their outer covers (for looks), which causes the strain relief to fail after several cycles of this "wrestling". This annoys me to no end. Their older models with soft cloth coverings are much much better here.

Don't even think about it.  Go XLR all the way!!!  Happy listening.

Thanks for the replies

None of my wire runs exceed 4 feet and most are 2 feet or less. Some could be done with a foot, just don't have any IC's that are that short. I may have some made. I've been using some DIY stuff made from "Beldon wire and Neutrik connections. Seems fine to me.

Talking about everything being balanced. What can be balanced besides my preamp and amplifiers? I don't think I've ever had or seen any XLR's anywhere else. Is this what is meant by "all balanced", just the preamp and amps?

Thanks

Is this what is meant by "all balanced", just the preamp and amps?

Plus sources (output side) - that’s pretty much the bulk of it. This can be extended to phono stages, tape pre-preamps, headphone amplifiers, tonearm cables, and step-up transformers. What else is there :)

"Doubling up" the circuitry inside pretty much always doubles the expense. 

Nothing that I have, has XLR connections except for the preamp that I just bought and my amps. I run my speakers bi-amped. The Calypso pre has XLR connections and RCA's at every input and output and includes 2 outs for my amps. It seems the perfect set up for me. I have seen some ARC's that have this same arrangement, which seems nice to me. I just don't have anything else that has XLR's. My VPI TT has a nice MIT 330 cable, DIN to RCA. My SUT, which I don't always use, has RCA's only as does my Cary Phono preamp as does my Denon CD player. I don't stream and I don't have any other devices. Would using XLR from preamp to amps be defeated by the fact that I have nothing else that is XLR or would connecting my amps by XLR make for an improvement anyway?

@billpete

So I had an ARC preamp like that (Reference 6) and in fact used it with its RCA inputs (from a phono stage with only RCA outs) and XLR outputs to my amps - and though that sounded best (compared to RCA outputs). Try it both ways, but my "guess" would be that XLR between preamp to amp is likely to sound best. You’ll usually also get +6dB extra gain this way, so make sure to adjust volume accordingly.

I also have VAC Master and Rogue Hera preamps with this arrangement too - RCA & XLR ins & outs. The Rogue and ARC are doing something to the RCA inputs so that it's a balanced signal before it hits the doubled (balanced) circuitry. I think the Master might actually be a SE circuit with full transformer-based I/O to facilitate the flexible I/O.

mulveling

... "Doubling up" the circuitry inside pretty much always doubles the expense ...

It's a misnomer that balanced circuits "double up" the circuitry. Balanced components such as the OP's Aesthetix Calypso use differential circuitry (probably operational amplifiers) to get the balanced outputs. That is a very common approach in high end audio.

Thanks guys

Sooooo.............The consensus is that I "should" hear a benefit to using XLR connections from preamp to amps even though nothing else is balanced?

Thanks,

Bill

What makes you think your thread will be different? Ralph, the BAT crew, and their follwers will swear you can’t have a good system without XLR. Many of the rest of us who swear by RCA, aren’t so married to it and we’ll likely say it doesn’t matter.

I have a custom amp made well beyond the price of most high end amps, and I had RCA inputs installed.

Jerry

carlsbad2

Ralph, the BAT crew, and their follwers will swear you can’t have a good system without XLR.

I generally prefer balanced components for a number of reasons but I don't think your claim is true. I ran single-ended for years with excellent results. As is often the case in audio, implementation is everything - there are good and bad (relatively) examples of each.

Jerry

I remember you talking about having yours made with RCA and you are talking about nice high end gear. Also, I find it interesting that CJ does not use XLR's. It seems that both can be excellent but maybe balanced has some advantage in some situations. Certainly in long runs but maybe some other situations as well. I am no expert, that's for sure. I can only try it with mine and see what I think. Even that won't prove a whole lot due to so many other factors involved but at least I'll have a taste of it and maybe I'll lean one way or the other. Hard to say.

I hope I haven't stirred more trouble. Not the intent at all. I appreciate all the input and I know there is a vast wealth of knowledge and experience here. Many thanks.

Bill

@billpete 

I believe you have the general idea:

It cost more in circuitry to produce balanced amps. Many lower price tube amps only come unbalanced.

It depends on the circuit design, but “usually” balanced is quieter than single ended.  No guarantees

Again, many thanks to all.

@cleeds that is not my claim.  I'm saying that there are those who feel that way.  I agree with you.  there are good of each.  

True balanced circuitry is more likely to result in slightly different SQ and improved SQ than cable differences.  The cost difference should also be higher, but there are some mighty expensive cables out there!

I'd buy a balanced amp (my preamp supports balanced) before I dropped serious coin on new SE interconnects.

I have a pair of Cardas Clear Beyond XLR because I have no choice if I want to use the Nagra Classic Preamp two pairs of parallel outputs for my sub (single pair of RCA outputs, so no sub in RCA). However, my source is connected in RCA.

In my second system as well as in two home theaters, I only have RCA Interconnects: two other pairs of Clear Beyond, two Siltech Crown Princess 35th Anniversary pairs, two Clear REV1 pairs and two Cygnus pairs.

The reason is: after more than 10 years of testing, I definitely prefer RCA interconnects, but only if there are high quality: The top frequencies seem clearer, to have more presence and impact, without being grainy

On short runs with well made equipment you probably won’t notice an audible difference.  I have both and choose to use XLR cables and connections when available.  The cables click or lock in place so it’s a secure connection especially with other cables around the equipment which is a benefit in my experience.  

If your equipment is True Balanced then XLR.

Otherwise I'd go unbalanced RCA. 

@vinylshadow what is true balanced? 

@invalid 

It's where the component has isolated inputs and outputs.

There is some great information on the interweb about it. 

"None of my wire runs exceed 4 feet and most are 2 feet or less"

if pre&amp plugged into the same power outlet (or strip) in your case there will be not much difference between rca<=>xlr. balanced xlr is a must for longer connections between devices, to avoid reflections and inter-chassis-ground noise impact on single ended signal reference, which directly reduces signal to noise ratio.  

The new preamp is true balanced circuitry. I have read that my amps are as well. All I can do is have a listen for myself if I try the XLR's. From the answers I'm getting, I doubt that I would appreciate an audible difference in a 4 foot run other than the 6db gain would be noticed. Beyond that, I don't know but as I say, all I can do is try it for myself sometime. I have never had any real complaints with RCA'a other than some that seem too tight, some too loose and having tried some cheap ones over the years, well, they were inferior in many ways, including audibly. Thanks again,

Bill

I switched en masse from Audioquest Columbia RCA to Audioquest Columbia XLR. In my system, XLR is quieter with absence of ground loops (I was able to get rid of a HumX on my cable modem). There was also more gain in my amp and preamp because of the removal of input circuit summing.

XLR was Unquestionably better in my apples to apples comparison.

Sometimes the output voltage is different between a SE and a balanced; I know it's that way with some DACs, like the Holo Audio May...  For whatever reason, a lot of tube headphone amps tend to be SE only. 

I have never had any real complaints with RCA'a other than some that seem too tight, some too loose and having tried some cheap ones over the years, well, they were inferior in many ways, including audibly.

Oh man, I HATE Cardas SRCAs and the absolute death-grip they apply to jacks. Here I think Audioquest did a pretty good job on their RCA plugs, though you better get used to the silver coatings getting black (is it really silver oxide, which is conductive, or silver tarnish, which is not?). 

These audio companies could use guys like me to actually use their products and complain about what they got wrong before a release :) 

Perhaps a different wording for the title: A truly balanced circuit (XLR) vs a single-ended circuit (RCA). A note.

I use  XLR for all my components which includes: amplifier, CD player and R2R.  I find a definite improvement to my system.  My amp, a McIntosh, has both XLR and RCA inputs from my preamp to my amp

mulveling

The worst ones for me were Monster cable THX. Way too tight and the cable is probably just so so anyway. DIY Beldon wire with Neutrik connectors are my new favorites. They have a really nice fit, glide on and off with ease but not at all loose, the old Goldilocks test, seem just right. I don't do the DIY, I buy from a guy who does. They are not expensive but they seem to be very well made and so far, they sound good to me.The MIT cable on the VPI, has locking WBT RCA's that seem to be very good. 

Perhaps if the circuitry (caps etc.) becomes equal between the two, there is not much advantage to XLR? Not sure, myself. I like to have the option even though I've never used it, just makes me feel good, knowing it's there if I ever decide to use it. Long wire runs seems to be the main reason. Are there others? I heard, lowers noise floor with higher gain. OK.

@billpete There's a lot of confusion in high end audio about balanced operation. My company has been doing balanced line longer than anyone else in high end audio so I might be able to clear some things up.

1) Long cables is not the only reason to run balanced. The goal of balanced lines originally was to eliminate ground loops and interconnect cable coloration (if you've ever compared two cables side by side and heard a difference, this is what I'm talking about). But to do that the equipment must be designed to support the balanced line standard, known as AES48. So the benefits are available even if short cables are used.

2) because a lot of high end audio equipment does not support the standard, in some cases the RCA output may actually sound better. That is not the fault of balanced operation, just that the standard is that important to getting the cables to sound right. In such cases you might get a 6dB increase in gain if running balanced. If the equipment supports AES48 this doesn't happen.

3) the equipment does not have to be balanced internally. Transformers can be used to interface between balanced lines and single-ended circuits. That is how it was done in the 1950s and 1960s.

4) quite often a preamp that has a balanced output can convert single-ended sources to balanced no worries.

5) Phono cartridges and tape heads are examples of balanced sources. The reason to run them balanced isn't so much for lower noise (although that is possible); the main reason is to avoid colorations from the tonearm cable. If this is done properly, there's no need for that 'ground wire' that accompanies most tonearms since that is handled by the shield of the balanced cable instead.

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