Nagaoka MP-150 vs MP-200

Signet was made by Audio-Technica, so you can look at current AT models, but ML (MicroLine) stylus is superior to E (Elliptical). 

Take a look at this comparison of 11 different MM cartridges (including the MP-200 and the MP-150).  

http://soundadvicevinyl.com/2017/12/04/under-1000-moving-magnet-cartridge-shootout-11-cartridge-revi...

Their conclusion is that the MP-200 is worth the additional cost (although it's more expensive now than when the review was conducted).  About the MP-150, they say, "There is nothing wrong with this cartridge , but its pricing and market position make it hard to recommend. As the tagline says, it is similar to the MP-200 but you get less of everything, and it lacks the MP-200’s sweetness and magic."

Sounds like the MP-200 would be a good purchase if you like the MP-150. 

Cheers, Scott

Scott,   thanks for the link.  Just trying to figure where I'll get the most improvement for the next $ I spend, since my budget is currently limited.  Under consideration are the MP-200 stylus or upgraded NOS preamp tubes.  :)

Go for MP 200 vs tubes.

agree, better stylus !

Previously I had a Signet TK5e for many years, which I was happy with.

@xs1137
You should ask @nandric , he’s got Signet TK-5E and better models, I’m sure you could buy NOS. Signet are better than Nagaoka in my opinion.

Well Chakster, looks like you got "out opinioned."

Advantage>NAGAOKA!

Well Chakster, looks like you got "out opinioned."

Hey - not so fast - I had a Nagoka about 25 years ago and I was NEVER completely satisfied with it - I don't recall which model - sorry

Even though Nagoka seems to be a popular recommendation on this forum, I think there are better choices out there for the same/similar $$$

I've since switched to an MC cart with a ruby cantilever and OC contact Line stylus courtesy of Soundsmith, which I love

But if I were to move back to MM it would probably be an AT
- Nagoka are just not well suited to my ears

Sorry - Just another opinion - Steve

Steve, 
Perfectly fine you have your own opinion. We all hear differently. Can be very system dependant too.

From my own experience, I owned  Soundsmith Boheme, $1k cart. The Nagaoka MP-200 I bought for $385 simply sounded way better than the Soundsmith. Also watched  YouTube video where a fellow who owned a small highend shop with many turntables at various price points did a controled, level matched comparison with Nagaoka against cartridges from Ortophon, Denon, Hana, and others which were higher priced than the Nagaoka's and each time he claimed the Nagaoka's as better. He used MP-110, MP-150, and MP-200.

Yes, you can claim it all subjective, but this fellow did his own research just as I did with my own comparison.

@mr_m - unfortunately my comments are based on my experience with a single Nagoka cartridge from 25 years ago, but it left a lasting impression and I've avoided them ever since.

But given the number of positive comments about the Nagoka line-up on this forum and the fact that I had a less than stellar experience with just one Nagoka cartridge I might conclude that my experience could have been due to

• that particular cartridge had some sort of problem
• OR, it was a bad match to the arm it was mounted on
• OR, it was a bad match to the turntable
• OR it was a bad match to the tonearm wire/cable

So I was wondering, could you please post the YouTube video you mentioned in your post
- I would be interested to view it

Many Thanks - Steve
 

I run a 150 with the 200 stylus and like it a lot. I don’t have experience with many carts though so I can’t say much other than I prefer Nags over the Orto Red and Blue I had (and I liked the Blue). Since I’ll be MM/MI only for a while, I keep a list of “carts Chakster likes” and then research the hell out of those..

There is a gentleman, Chinese I think who runs a hifi shop. His YouTube name is hifivinylnews. He does a lot of cartridge comparisons and likes Nagaoka.

+1 for the MP-200. go for it, better cart. I have both. The other cart to consider is the AT VM540. tonal balance very close to the MP-200, but the 540 is a better tracker. 

Under consideration are the MP-200 stylus or upgraded NOS preamp tubes. :)

Actually preamp tubes can make a huge difference, I switched from modern JJ to some of the best military Telefunken ecc801s and then to cheaper but very nice Sylvania 12at7WA (Gold) and then to Matsushita 12at7WA (find in my system). NOS tubes are great when you know a particular model or brand @xs1137

And you must keep your stylus fresh, so it’s always important. However, some of those new Nagaoka styli cost like a whole new cartridge and if you owned a Signet you have to search audiogon for Signet TK-10ML and related top of the line Signet models, they are superior to any modern AT and so much better than any Nagaoka. You have to ask @nandric about his NOS Signet samples. 

There is a gentleman, Chinese I think who runs a hifi shop. His YouTube name is hifivinylnews. He does a lot of cartridge comparisons and likes Nagaoka.

You trust some Chinese communist who runs a hi-fi shop? Who cares what he likes, he’s not even an audiogon member ... @mr_m

Seriously, China is notorious for counterfeit products and grey market dealers.

@mr_m - thanks for the info on that gentleman

He does a lot of cartridge comparisons and likes Nagaoka.

He certainly does - he prefers them over all the other cartridges he reviewed in the three videos I watched.

There was a whiff of "promotional bias" :-)

I’m not sure I would trust his evaluations alone,

• so I went looking for other comparisons and found a couple that contradicted his findings,
• but they were very close
• however, definitely not quite as "Night and Day" as his videos appear to suggest.

Cartridges are tough to assess, because you have to buy one to try it and their performance is very dependent on the system components, cables, the turntable and especially cartridge setup and alignment, which with the more modern stylus profiles is extremely important.

So I would still revert back to my own "Nagoka experience" and favour AT and Signet carts.

Regards - Steve

@williewonka 

Steve, duly noted, your money, your ears, your choice. I have no problem with that.

@chakster 

Well comrade, while we are airing our "dirty laundry" I'm at least willing to give that gentleman the benefit of the doubt. I have done my own comparisons and have found the Nagaoka's to be of good quality if not Sota. You dismiss them as just do much junk.

I have used your so called recommendations such as Stanton 881S, and while they were good in their day I feel the Nagaoka's are better and what I remember of stylus wear, the Stanton's were certainly no better.

While you're at it Chakster, being a j__k isn't a good look for you. You are better than that. IMO.

my sonic memory of Signet is pretty dated. We sold a LOT of them IF client couldn’t make the leap to a Dynavector Ruby. I would love to audition a 10 mk whatever…..

@chakster

Well comrade, while we are airing our "dirty laundry" I’m at least willing to give that gentleman the benefit of the doubt. I have done my own comparisons and have found the Nagaoka’s to be of good quality if not Sota. You dismiss them as just do much junk.

This an entry level cartridge, just like any classic Shure, Ortofon, Grado at this price, nothing special. Just a basic cartridge from a very old brand you can trust @mr_m

I have used your so called recommendations such as Stanton 881S, and while they were good in their day I feel the Nagaoka’s are better and what I remember of stylus wear, the Stanton’s were certainly no better.

Did I ever mention Stanton in this topic anywhere?
I recommended to the OP to ask my buddy Nordic about SIGNET cartridges, he’s got some. And I believe we don’t need your Chinese chap approval on TV, right ?

P.S. Regarding Stanton 881s (if you’re so concerned) I always posted an article from T.A.S. magazine. According to the article It was an official monitoring cartridge on cutting lathe of Mr. Doug Sax at Sheffield Lab in the 80s. He is the guy who mastered some of the most famous albums including the 12th album of Pink Floyd. When you cut a lacquer you need a cartridge to playback it right from the cutting lathe, so there was a Stanton 881s when Mr. Doug Sax played his master cut to make sure everything is OK. I trust industry professionals.

Wow...guess Asians all look alike to some of you.
Ian is from Singapore and he used to buy and review lots of turntables, cartridges etc.
No, he's not "a Chinese Communist"
I don't know why  but I expected better from this forum.

He's and enthusiastic audiophile who loves to compare stereo gear and share his experiences. 

Not sure if links are allowed but here goes:

https://youtu.be/E4G7hSUQoOc

I don't understand why we have racist comments in this forum.  I too expect better from this forum. It has no place in a civilized society.  How can we stop this especially in this much enjoyable forum?  It's very disheartening that people harbor sweeping ill feelings due to one's ethnicity.  SMH...

@mwink

@Philgo01

I apologize for not knowing the ethnic backgrounds of Ian. Lord knows I have no intentions of being racist.
I was taken a back of Chakster's comments and called him out on it.

True to his nature, he was only interested in getting his point across. 

I don't think Ian would be the type to scam people, and Chakster's comments were totally uncalled for. 

Once again, if I made any racial comments or even racial profiled, I sincerely apologize as this wasn't my intention. 

The Chinese Communist Party is the founding and sole governing party of the People’s Republic of China.

Chinese is nationality, ask @mr_m why he has no clue who is his favorite online reviewer.

My joke doesn’t work if the reviewer is from Singapore, indeed. But it doesn’t make an entry level Nagaoka PM100,110,200 any better!

I was born in Soviet Union, but communism crashed here in 1991.

@chakster 

Favorite on line reviewer??? FYI, I have none. I've done my own comparisons albeit limited. Sorry I don't have the funds to own several turntables and dozens of carts and styli. 

Sounds like capitalism is alive and well in Russia.

@chakster 

Just because you were born in the former Soviet Union does not make your sweeping generalities that all Chinese nationals are communists or support the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) true.  There is a lot of dissent towards the CCP both inside and outside mainland China.  There are also a LOT of Chinese outside of China and the significant majority of them do not support the CCP. Would be wonderful if we can keep someone's nationality or politics out of our audio discussion as I just don't see why it matters.

@mr_m 

Your inability to accurately articulate someone's ethnicity or nationality is totally understandable.  Yet, I don't see it as being racist. Regardless, I don't really care what someone's ethnicity or nationality is.  I just care about their knowledge of the subject matter at hand.  No harm done by you as far as I am concerned !!!

Thanks to all that shared their experience. I realize the only sure way to evaluate is to try in my system, but since I don’t have a removable head shell, it’s kind of a PITA to set up the carts properly multiple times. As mentioned, my longtime cart was a Signet, which I was pleased with. The Naga MP-150 is different...the top end seems somewhat rolled off compared to what I’m accustomed to, though I am hearing at least as much detail, and I enjoy everything else about it. I was hoping to get a general idea of what, if any, difference the MP-200 stylus would bring. Otherwise I suppose I just have to figure out whose house sound I prefer, Naga or AT. :)

I'm sure whichever you choose, you will be happy. Enjoy the journey!

Cheers,

As mentioned, my longtime cart was a Signet, which I was pleased with. The Naga MP-150 is different...the top end seems somewhat rolled off compared to what I’m accustomed to, though I am hearing at least as much detail, and I enjoy everything else about it. I was hoping to get a general idea of what, if any, difference the MP-200 stylus would bring. Otherwise I suppose I just have to figure out whose house sound I prefer, Naga or AT. :)

I’m pretty sure AT’s MicroLine stylus tip (available with Signet carts too) is the best you can get over a plain Elliptical of Nagaoka MP-200 (so you will not get much improvement with stylus replacement for your Nag).

Signet (made by AT) is pretty much high-end, especially models with Beryllium cantilevers (and ML styli).

Beryllium is no longer available for ANY cartridge manufacturers today!

There was a thread on Audiogon quite a while ago in which a former engineer from Audio Technica was participating. He wrote a rather in depth post as to why Beryllium was the go to material for cantilevers and the panic that ensued at AT when the EPA came down with the order that it no longer be used due to the dangerous toxic dust released when machining the material. He stated that the engineering department underwent a lot of R&D to find a suitable replacement material and Boron was what they determined would be closest, however it was still a compromise. Apparently Beryllium allows for the largest frequency excursion without distortion and also permits better channel separation and signal to noise ratios. This is why it was so good.

MicroLine (or Micro Ridge) is truly a high-quality stylus that enables enhanced performance and high-fidelity sound reproduction. Carefully-selected, natural octahedral single crystal diamond is precisely processed after determining the exact crystal axis. The ML stylus has a micro curvature radius that picks up the smallest signals and plays them back. The belt-like (microline) contact shape has a uniform, few-micron width and suitable height. Audio-Technica invented the MicroLine stylus shape.

P.S. My personal favorite is the AT-ML180 OCC cartridge, it was top of the line MM cartridge in the 80’s and was available till the late 90’s. Top Signet models must be very close to this reference AT. However, they are way out of your budget, so this is why I recommend you to ask our member @nandric for his lower priced Signet (NOS) before it’s too late! As far as I know he's got the same  Signet TK5e you're using, but NOS.

Dear chakster, This member wrote to me asking questions about
Signet carts. I own 6 of them among which also TK 5 Ea. I told
him what I know as well that my are for sell. I deed not mention
any price. But I heard never again from him. He is probably
only pretending t be interested. 

@ Nandric I appreciate you took the time to reply. When I messaged you I asked of your opinions about the Signets, as Chakster said you were very familiar with them. Your reply was that you had some for sale, though didn’t mention any pricing. If you can offer insight about how they sound and compare (I know about the history), or even what you would charge for one, that I am interested in.  At this point I am just looking for information.

For what it's worth Nagaoka has their MP-500, which has a line contact styli.

Audio-Technica invented the MicroLine stylus shape.

Nonsense - Namiki patented it in 1983.

I have tried the MP 200 and have it installed on my sister's TT, she seems very happy with the improvement from her Shure Cartridge, (can't remember which Shure it was). I currently have my old MP 30 Cartridge and a new MP 300 stylus installed on the cartridge (they are compatible) and really love the clarity especially in the high and mid frequencies, cymbals, drum sticks on the side of the snare and any  horns. Female voice is also enhanced and more life like.
Just one person's experience, I think it can be a bit of a personal process, hit and miss.

Namiki patented it in 1983.

It was MicroRidge 

@xs1137 Nanrdic is using LOMC cartridges only, but believe me when he bought those NOS Signet they were mentioned so often in MM thread here on audiogon by so many different users, you can simply search the audiogon forum and you will find all the information. Some people will tell you that Signet top models are the best MM cartridges ever made, I never tried the best Signet, but I love the best Audio-Technica from the same era (but they are over $2k NOS). If your budget is $300 I bet you can choose one of those inexpensive models Nandric has.

You can trust all those made by AT:

-Signet
-Precept

Use any of these key words and search audiogon forum, some people are crazy about those cartridges.

Why? There are much better cartridges....don't believe the Korean guy on youtube....