Ar_t, thanks for your candid contribution. Perhaps we will all need to add a bit more salt to the forum recipe here on Audiogon. While I am completely in favor of manufacturers contributing here, Audiogon's refusal to flag those that obvioulsy MAY have a different agenda than the typical hobyist compromises the very integrity of this forum. Buyer beware!
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Woodburger wrote "compared to my reference tube amp, the NuForce Reference 9s have a much more dynamic sound. Is it better? My experience has been affected by the bloom of tubes. I have to refresh my thinking in terms of dynamics, soundstaging, clarity, bloom/compression, bass and treble extension. The change isn't a familiar sound (yet) since I am so used to the tube effect. BOTH are, to my ear, excellent. But different." Woodburger *Simply put, the Nuforce amplifiers sound more like live music than anything I've ever heard.* If one listens to and uses live music as one's reference, and providing the rest of your system is up to the task, the choice becomes clear. The Nuforce amplifers replaced my reference Classe DR3 class A amplifiers which had fought and, up until recently, quite handily defeated amplifiers of all types and topologies in the cutting edge, revered underground and legendary classic categories. I have spent an inordinant amount of money on audio over the years in order to realize that one doesn't have to. Kerry Kerry Legeard B. A. Sc. P. Eng www.musicfirstdistribution.com Disclaimer!!! I am a Nuforce fan, supporter and Canadian Distributor in order of both chronology and personal importance. |
My review of the NuForce Reference 9 is now on my site toward the bottom of this page: http://www.GreatHomeTheater.com/studio.html |
Ar t, thats why we have to audition first, before making a decision,here at Agon you can get a good feel about the gear you want to buy,You see? I like the Nuforce Ref9 9.01, it does not mean it will work for everyone.This is only simple common sense, My experience tells me, I should not listen all the time for what I read here, but I use them for reference.Anyone who will recommend and for the wrong motives thats not acceptable of course, thats why we have to be careful, ask more members to confirm it.They are many knowledgeable member here, who can really help. |
I don't know why they lumped us all together. Nor do I have any idea what those new programs are. It has been over 1 month since they announced the change, but no details have come forward. OK.......question for the gang: Should small, "unknown" manufacturers (like us, for example) put in BIG letters on every post that we are manufacturers??? Personally, I am not in favor of that. There are guys who make numerous mindless posts (on other forums) just to get their name and URL in front of as many eyes as possible. But if that alleviates confusion, then perhaps we should here. "I'm all ears." |
Lacee, I see that you are brand spankin' new to audiogon. Welcome. Your post begs a few questions so if you don't mind answering just one. What equipment, line conditioners, speakers, and cabling were used in the system you heard with the NuForce amps? Contrary to your post, I just received the Dec 2005 issue of The Absolute Sound yesterday. There in the recommended components section I read: "The diminutive Reference 9 monoblocks are sophisticate, analog-modulated Class D amplifiers that sound like sonic giants. First, they offer deeply extended and tightly controlled bass, with excellent pitch definition. Second, they offer open-sounding mids, almost shockingly detailed highs, and explosive dynamics. But the biggest news may be their precise, three-dimensional sounding (which is reminicent, to some degree, of the ASR's world-class soundstaging). Note: These amps are quite sensitive to associated cabling, so choose carefully." -Chris Martens (of The Absolute Sound) review forthcoming. As my 5 year old son would say, "Now that's what I'm talking about!" I'm of the opinion that there are only a handful of reviewers whose opinions are worth listening to. In this case Chris Martens expressed my personal experience pretty much to a tee and hopefully explains more fully my selling my treasured McCormack DNA-2 Rev. A amp and my subsequently becoming a NuForce dealer. -IMO |
I have recently received my Reference 9s back from a couple of final mods from NuForce. My amps are the version 9.02 and have extended bass, extended bandwidth, and the gold/copper WBT NextGen RCA inputs. Before this last mod, I also discovered that removing the yellow capacitor across the speaker outputs extended the bass and made the sound more transparent. So mine are without that output capacitor, as well. This is currently the latest version, and can be bought from NuForce with all the upgrades I have. I think part of the reason I like these amps so much is because of the unique super-fast digital power supply that NuForce has developed. It seems to enable high dynamic capability with high speed (to catch the leading edge of musical transients without smearing or blurring them). One poster said he thought the amps sounded more like what he hears live than any other amps he's tried and I agree with that. I use the super-fast VMPS RM30 speakers and can tell you that not all speakers are capable of responding accurately to the speed of the signal that the NuForce amps can deliver. The VMPS ribbon drivers are incredibly quick and detailed and with the latest Reference 9s will provide a near-live listening experience if the recording and the rest of the component chain is up to it. Regarding tonality, as has been noted here, there have been different versions of this amp and different combinations of upgrades that have produced different results in my system. I liked the NextGen Platinum RCA inputs with earlier versions of the amps, but found them too bright for this latest, extended bandwidth version and had them changed to the copper/gold version, which has worked well to provide a natural tonal balance. Another note on tonality is that the NuForce amps are very cable sensitive (just like most amps). They are especially power-cord sensitive and if you find the right combination of interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords, they will provide very natural and transparent sound. The bottom line is that these latest Reference 9s, the 9.02 upgraded version, have taken my system to new heights that I believe would be difficult or impossible for other amps to match. I'll be writing a full review for www.stereotimes.com, shortly. Happy Listening! |
Mdconnelly, Good question. When I heard my specific Reference 8B amps on the 10T's it was at a friend's home who is a member of the Phoenix A/V club. He has a wonderful setup and a fantastic, custom-built room that is almost perfect for audio, judging from my experience that day. The one area that came off as lacking on the 8B's compared to the owner's modified Bryston 7BST's and the Rowland 201's was that of bass extension -- weight and slam. Both of the higher-powered amps beat the 8B's in that regard. But you also need to put it in the context that the 8B's were being used on relatively inefficent speakers ( 86 or 87 dB/watt, I believe) in a large room and at relatively loud playback levels. Still, the 8Bs acquitted themselves quite well although rated at less than half the power of the other amps on hand. Actually, I couldn't believe how loud the 8Bs played that system while maintaining their composure and ability to make music. In my own system, on the VMPS RM30s, I also find the Reference 8 series a little light in bass extension compared to other amps I have used. Now the Reference 9's have considerably more rms power output capability than the Reference 8's, and they have more instantaneous peak power capability to boot. That said, the 90dB/watt RM30's in my room are much easier for an amp to drive than my friend's 10T system. But, at even modest listening levels, the Reference 8's come off as being somewhat anemic in the lowest bass. There is no denying they are dynamic and extremely articulate in the bass they provide, yet the Reference 9's in my system sound more relaxed at higher average playback levels that the Ref 8s could comfortably manage. Perhaps more importantly, the Reference 9s provide real weight, slam, and extension in the low bass. I found early versions of the Reference 9s not quite up to the midrange/treble performance of my updated Reference 8s, in terms of speed, incisiveness, and hf extension. However, the 9.02 version of the Reference 9 with the double input capacitance (and yellow output caps removed) appears to surpass my Reference 8s in the midrange and treble, and it's a bit more holographic in its soundstaging presentation, as the TAS reviewer noticed. If you own 10t's or any other relatively inefficient speaker, and enjoy healthy bass slam, then there is no question that the Reference 9.02 amps are the way to go. On the other hand, a person who uses monitors, with limited low bass or someone who augments their main speakers with powered subwoofers could be very happy with either the Reference 8s or Ref 9s, I should think. Frank :) |
Plato, I apologize for my comment above about feeling few reviewers are worth listening to. I know you've been around Agon for years but I did not know that you are a reviewer and that comment was certainly not directed toward you. I actually posted my previous response around midnight last night and I think agon finally turned around and posted it about 9 am this morning. Well after your previous post. So on the surface it may seem that my post was a follow up to your post. It was not. I expressed my feeling about reveiwers in general but nevertheless, my statement was callous and over-generalized and certainly unkind to mention in the presence of a reviewer or perhaps in the presence of anyone for that matter. I appreciate your not responding in kind and your keen insight into the NuForce amps. Please accept my apology. -John timestamped 9:28 pm. |
Hi John, I did not feel that your comments were directed at me and didn't take any offense. I see reviewers get slammed here fairly regularly in this forum, so I don't usually take it personally. I appreciate your concern and thank you for considering my feelings. Like you, I believe the NuForce technology has something special to offer and I think audiophiles should be aware of it. One thing I can say for sure, is that to my ears, my systems have never sounded better since I began using the NuForce amplifiers as my reference. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. Frank :) |
Thanks, Frank. And I couldn't agree with you more regarding your thoughts on the NuForce amps. Along that same line of thinking, I can't help but wonder what the home theater industry will think of these amps once they get wind of them. Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving also. -John timestamp 10:33 pst |
I got a pair of 8's last week, and raised the question with Nuforce about the power difference between the 8's and 9's, and well as any differences in sound. I had felt that there must be some compromises in making switchable inputs, and the extra capacitance in the 9's. I was told if I liked the 8's, to keep them, as many prefer them to the 9's. The 8's are a little faster than the 9's, although obviously both are spectacular in this regard. I would also say that the bass in the 8's is excellent. I mention this only because people are referring to the 9's as an "upgrade", but this is not neccesarily the case. The 8's have seen a few changes also, and I wonder how many people go from an older version of the 8 to a new version of the 9 and attribute this improvement to the higher power, when it may be the updates done to both amps? I personally cannot see needing more power, as I can crank this LOUD and never have it fall apart due to clipping. IMO, that is one of the strengths of these amps, they remain unflustered at high outputs. |
Dbarger, As long as you have adequate power with the Ref 8s and you're happy with the bass extension, there is probably no reason to upgrade to the Ref 9s. The pair of Ref 8s I have are the 8.02, I believe, and I like them very much. My feeling is that the latest Reference 9s are a little better in the ways that I mentioned above. That said, the 8.02's that I have do not contain all the most recent upgrades of my Ref 9s. So it is very possible and likely that the most recent version of the Ref 8 does compete well with the Ref 9, in the midrange and treble (provided that NuForce is upgrading the latest Ref 8 in the same ways). In my view, bass freaks and those with relatively inefficient speakers (under about 88dB/watt) may be better served by the Ref 9s (this is also dependent on the size of one's room and how loud one likes his music). Since NuForce has extended the bandwidth of the Ref 9s into the treble spectrum, to my ears they sound as fast and detailed as any pair of Ref 8s that I've heard. I believe the bandwidth specs that NuForce currently lists is outdated. Realize too, that the power supply of the Ref 8s is limited by the smaller size of its chassis, i.e., it's likely that a higher capacity power supply wouldn't physically fit inside the compact dimensions of the Ref 8. So right now, the relevant performance-related questions are completely dependent upon the specific version of each amplifier you happen to be comparing and which options (if any) they contain. |
Plato, I have two of the ref 9's on order with the extended bass option. Do you know if these amps should run through a power conditioner? I have also heard that bi wiring with double shotgun runs of silver wire is excellent. These amps have outperformed tube amps in the 10k range. This is coming from audiophiles that spend a lot of money on gear and are not dealers and are not affiliated with Nuforce. If they felt that there amps outperformed these after extensive testing then they would not use the nuforce amps. After I heard this I ordered them right away. I feel you possibly had the same experience. I will be driving JM Labs 936's with these amps. If you have any other info to share regarding these amps I am all ears. |
Here is the list of equipment used in the demo of the Ref 9.Pre amp- Mark Levinson 32s,Cardas Golden ref cable,Gallo Ref 3 speakers(no bass amp added),Shunyata hydra line conditioner,Cary cd. Unless there was a particular problem with this pair of amps, the sound of this system was not very pleasant noted by all including the dealer . The Nuforce line in this case was not added. I was disappointed as a customer that it did not sound the way I had read that it should. |
Jason, thanks for your response. I already have a Panamax 5300. How will that work for me? In the next week or two these amps will be put to the test against Levinson 33's driving Grand Utopia BE's. Even if they are close and can drive these speakers especially in the low end then they probably will be regarded as a giant killer. I believe the ref 9 with the extended bass will be used without any internal mods. Do you have any recomendations for vibration control for Nuforce amps? I am using black diamond racing pucks and cones for my cdp and they work great! |
Jp1208, I'm getting excellent results with my Reference 9s using a PS Audio UPC-200 AC line conditioner. I think it's always best to use some form of AC line filtering when possible. As for using pucks, cones, and such, I've experimented briefly with some of those things, but I'm presently getting great results with the Ref 9s standing on their own feet on a couple of corian planks set on my carpet. I've recently had a sonic breakthrough using the Benchmark DAC-1 via its fixed outputs through a buffered, unity-gain solid-state linestage and then into the Reference 9s. To my ears, using the Benchmark's variable outputs directly into the amps produced a very detailed and intimate sound, but one that was on the bright and thin side of reality. Then, rerouting the Benchmark, using its fixed outputs through my buffered linestage and then into the amps literally transformed the system. The soundstage dimensionality literally took command of the room and all of a sudden there was a richness to the lower midrange and bass that just wasn't there before. I am amazed at the transformation. I believe this is the best sound I've heard from any system at any time. It is most certainly the best sound I've ever experienced in my current listening room by a considerable margin. Obviously, the system could not sound this fantastic if the Reference 9s were not doing their part. I'll be curious to hear your impressions of the Reference 9s in your system once you have a chance to play with them and do some listening. They will definitely show you what the rest of your gear is doing or not doing and you'll be well rewarded for each compatible system change you try. |
Unless there was a particular problem with this pair of amps, the sound of this system was not very pleasant noted by all including the dealer . The Nuforce line in this case was not added. I was disappointed as a customer that it did not sound the way I had read that it should. It is hard to comment without knowing how much breakin the dealer has allowed for the amp and whether anyone has attempted to re-configure the system or adjust for speakers toe-in position (toeing out). If you read many of the reviews (from professional reviewers to serious audiophiles) from magazines to online forums, they have taken the trouble to tune their systems. NuForce is ruthlessly revealing amount many other things. In addition, NuForce is a very neutral amp and it present the recording as it is. You don't find people describing it as warmth or sweet (to me that's distorted sound but hey, there is no right or wrong, music is very personal). So by introducing a neutral amp into a system that has been very well compensated can suddently appear off balance. Jason |
There is only one way to know for sure how good the nuforce amps sound, "I Kid You Not", Listen To Me. All Amp generate Noise! Resonences, they Vibrate, Hum, and so on, One only needs to place 8s or 9s on Maple Block just big enough to hold them, possiblly weigh them down with about five LBs of lead shot spread evenly accross entire top of amp. Now in equal triangle set Stillpoints with height ajusters under Maple Block, scewing the Stillpoints up and down, while listing you will be able to effectively drain off all Noise from chassis and Amp, "Stillpoints Can Do This" You will here your Amps for the First time with out noise being added into swicthing ICs, this is critical because of the shear speed of the ICs can "smear" or distort any noise thats innerduced in to them. All equipment that us audiophiles use generates noise, there isn't one that can't be Vastly improved by direct ajustable hight Still- points, Try it, You'll "Freak Out!" and become a Believer like me. |
I don't know what nuforce is doing in the Future, Sure would be nice if they'd improve their now current model amps, by using thicker gauge alloy and some damping of any kind? to chassis! I mean they could of stuck the anolog technology in a card board box! enough said. As for 500 WATTs, we may be waiting on the wrong company, The Amps That quite possiblly can Beat Nuforce soniclly are found at www.gilmoreaudio.com The MegaRapture will make 500 watts, and the Gilmore Amps use a "Really Good Chassis" This company understands that to have a good digital swithing amp, for crying out loud! you have to put it in a good, thick, heavy chassis, well damped, ect. My guess is that the nuforce amps ring, like tuning forks? Very depressing to say the least. In ending, I'd like nuforce to go back to the drawing board and get their chassis beefed up before I buy mine? |
Guy's, I think the chassis issue is being way overdone here. Obviously the NuForce amps wouldn't sound nearly as good as they do if the chassis affected the sound that much. And the chassis is more substantial on the Reference 9s than it is on the Reference 8 series. I used to know a highly acclaimed audio designer who told me he could put his circuits in a cardboard box and they would sound about the same -- and maybe better, because there wouldn't be ferrous metal next to the circuitry. He'd say, "Sure, give me another $500 to $1000 and I'll put it in a real pretty box for you -- but it will still sound the same." Beyond that, I have to say that I don't know of a single piece of audio gear (no matter how stout the chassis) that doesn't respond to chassis tuning tweaks. Unsound, the Ref 9s will provide 300 watts rms at 4 ohms and almost 700 watts in short term peak power. If that's not enough for you Jason intimated that NuForce will be coming out with an even more powerful amp in the future. |
Nice assessment, Plato. As one who dabbles with performance-oriented racking systems utilizing the resonance energy transfer (aka coupling) methodology, my limited experience tells me that as you said any product's performance can be influenced(sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse) via chassis tweaks. My take on the chassis tweaks would be to eliminate or minimize the dampening within the chassis and instead tightly couple all internal components to the chassis which in turn should be tightly coupled to the racking system which in turn should be tightly coupled to the sub-flooring system. Thus providing an expedited exit path for the air-borne vibrations captured instantaneously but which can only dissipate over a period of time (like a reverb). The more tightly coupled everything is, the more instantaneous the mechanical transfer occurs. I find it frustrating when mfgÂ’ers of otherwise good performance-oriented equipment make half-assed attempts at internal vibration control and internal line conditioning. First, the consumer is forced to select that mfgÂ’ers choice of methodology (which is often times an inferior methodology) and second, itÂ’s usually through some cheap $5 part like a tiny AC filter or a certain silicon glue or dampening plate and third, thereÂ’s usually nothing the consumer can do to rectify the mfgÂ’ers poor choice or futile attempts since the methodolgy is often times so embedded into the product. So in my opinion that otherwise well-crafted product is now deemed worthless or worth less in my book. Anyway, thatÂ’s my take. -IMO |
You Guys re-inforce the Nuforce Problem, I admire your Honesty and Reply, to the Fact that Nuforce is "Not" at this time addressing chassis Noise. Fact is, I've spent many weeks & countless hours Tuning the Noise out of a digital swithing amp, of all the designs I've encountered, swithing Amps are the most, By Far! and Away! affected by internally Generated Noise. The Good News, Once the "Noise is Canceled", I'll put it on the line for Ya. My amplified signal took on "TRUE" tone and a "SWEETNESS", which can only be associated with original Performance, which is locked in the software. Give yourself a "lesson" if I only knew my Nuforce amp could sound every bit as Tonely Good as the finest single ended amp? I'd give my right arm? well it does'nt cost & arm or leg for that matter, Adjustable Still Points, 3 of them under your amps, inverted, will let you drain off all noise in your chassis, Call on Paul Wakeen, www.stillpoints.us Don't say I told you so. |
I couldn't wait to read all the responses. I just want to say that I agree with Plato wholeheartedly. I listen only to analog(for those not in the know, that means 1981 or earlier albums). I have Nuforce 8.02b's with Cardas adaptors. Don't listen to the naysayers. Their Technics amp(no offense) is the Nuforce's equal. Yeah, right! A Corolla will outhandle a Porsche. |
I've received a few inquiries about my previous post above and it would seem that some may have taken my comments regarding mfg'ers attempts at vibration control were directed at the Nuforce amps specifically. To clarify, my comments about mfg'ers attempts at vibration were NOT directed toward Nuforce products in any way. Near as I can tell, Nuforce attempts to stay away from this area which I think is ideal. Furthermore, as a Nuforce dealer, it would have been rather unbright of me to offer unsolicited negative comments about a product I sell and of which I am so fond. Sorry for any confusion. -IMO |
Plato, these amps rock! I am glad I took the advice given to me. The other advice given to me is to get there p-8 pre/amp or wait for the p-9. The p-8 could be more of a bargain than the 9.02's. They are possibly way over built for there price range. I think you will start to see reviews on those p-8's soon. The 9.02's sound better plugged into my dedicated circuit than they do into the panamax. The panamax slows them down and they sound a little on the dark side. If you like the sound a little dark then there you go. I had a Proceed hpa-3 which is 250w and these little amps kill it in every aspect. The bass that these produce is not typical of a ss 160w amp. The slam is amazing and accurate. If there was a problem with the first run of these amps I would have to say they are fixed. I will be dealing with the vibration control later but for now I dont want to touch em. I am probably going to get the p-8 and run it into my Arcam AV-8 if it is compatible. The p-8 has a HT passthrough so I will investigate that option. By the way my 9.02's have the extended bass version. Maybe the best sound to value ratio out there! |
Jp1208, I just ordered a pair of the ref 9s with the extended bass option. Last night I had an opportunity to compare a Dartzeel NHB-108 with a pair of Ref. 9s. It was set up in my system, playing through a pair of Von Schweikert Audio VR-4jrs and I'll tell you, the Nuforce amps were not embarrassed by the Dartzeel by any stretch. The Nuforce amps are the real deal IMO. The Dartzeel definitely had a more refined, analog-like sound, but the Nuforce were pretty darn close. There were 3 of us listening, and I think we all came to the same conclusion. With some tweaking and system-tuning, I would bet you can get 80-90% of the performance of the Dartzeels with the ref 9s. From that listening session, I decided to order a pair. The pair I heard did not have the extended bass option, so it will be interesting to hear the differences between the two versions (extended bass vs standard). |
I spent quite a bit of time recently comparing the Nuforce 9.02s to a McCormack DNA-500. Let's just say that the difference sonically is a lot less than the difference in price. The Nuforce truely are exceptional bang-for-the-buck amps that compete very well with the big boys. My only caveat is that if you are big into FM or have a TV/tuner nearby, you may have some difficulties with RF interference (I did). That said, there are ways to isolate/shield your tuner/antenna and I'm sure Nuforce will ultimately address this. With all that said, I bought a used McCormack DNA-500 -- an amazing amp! |
Jp1208, I heard the 9.02s. I'm not sure what you mean between single ended vs. bi-wiring? I listened to them using balanced interconnects connected directly to my front-end (APL Denon 3910). My speaker cables are shotguns (Acoustic Zen double-barrel). I'm still shocked at the performance of these amps. The hardest thing to get over is their small form factor, light weight, and price... quite frankly. It's hard to imagine such little amps, that cost $2,500/pair competing with an $18,000 Dartzeel amp. But that's exactly what they do. It's a real paradigm shift. They are definitely the real deal! If these amps are any indication of what the future holds for high-end audio, we are all in for some amazing sound (and bargains) as this techology matures. |
Ggil, sorry about that. Single ended wiring rather than a bi-wire configuration. I have double shotgun runs that are paired and running bi-wired. This weekend I will take one set off and see what happens. These amps still have room for improvement and you will have the option to upgrade down the road. They can make these babies much better. Nuforce is still just scratching the surface. I can't wait to add one of there pre/amps. Let me know when you get them broken in. |
Ggil, single ended silver wire did not work for me. It was too bright and lost the richness in my system. I will go back to the bi-wire configuration. I am going to look at some other options on wiring after I get a better pre/amp. I also have an upgraded cdp, actually two of them from the upgrade company. Modifiying units by the right people are the only way to go! |
Jp1208, I received the Reference 9s yesterday. They are the extended bass version and I'm burning them in now. I plan to put about 100 hours on them before doing any critical listening. I am running an APL Denon 3910 (the latest version) with balanced interconnects from Ridge Street Audio (Poiema III). The interconnects are silver, but in my system, they are not bright. I'm running my APL Denon direct to the Nuforce amps. Once they are burned in, I will compare the extended bass version with the standard and report back! |
