Nuforce

Read the HiFi+ Issue 42 review.They also felt there is less to the amp than some would have us believe.Opinions on the sound of this amp vary, so maybe there are unit to unit differences,hence my initial reaction. I wanted to like them,but the pair I listened to didn't do any of the things that the reviews said they would.Maybe they have a sound that is appealing to some and not to others.

For every high-end audio product I expect. Except the DK integrated of course.

(nyuk, nyuk)

Well, I've had my Nuforce Ref. 9s for a few weeks now, and I have to say that I am VERY pleased with them. These amps are much more dynamic, have better bass extension and control and are much more revealing than my ARC VT-100 MKII. I've been an all tube guy for years, and I was very happy with the ARC until I heard the Nuforce in my system. The Nuforce amps do NOT sound like any other solid state amp I've ever heard. No, they don't sound like tubes, but they don't sound like the solid state amps I've heard either. I will say this, I don't think I would be as happy with the Nuforce amps if my digital front-end didn't have a tube output stage. The combination of a tube preamp with these amps is perfect for my taste. Last weekend I brought my pair of Nuforce amps to our local audio club meeting and they were driven by a very good quality CD player (with no tube output stage), and to me, the sound was a little too accurate for me. But, everyone's taste is different. I would say that most of the other members of our audio club really liked the sound. I would highly recommend auditioning them in your system if you get a chance. Especially if you have a tube preamp or your CD player has a tube output stage.

Lacee - I wouldn't put too much into the HiFi+ review. The lastest review from Positive Feedback online, by Robert Levi is MUCH more accurate, IMO, as to what the NuForce's are capable of.

Ggil's thread pretty much sums up my enthusiasm for these amps as well. If the NuForce's were priced based solely on performance alone, they would be over $10k a pair. Thank the audio-gods that they are not, as they have allowed me to experience a quality of sound reproduction that I didn't think I would ever be able to afford, let alone hear.

With a 30 day trial period, ANYONE in the market for amps at this price (or quite a bit higher), would be missing out on something truly special - again, IMHO.

Ggil, how does the mid bass sound on your system?
Regarding the HiFi+ review, the unit was taken out of the box with no break in period and reviewed. Would they do that with a 10k amp? I guess it depends on how much the mfg. pays the reviewer. What is funny is that Nuforce claims they do not pay reviewers to write about there findings.
Denf has the best idea, review it on your own system and give them 100 hrs or better break in time. I found that they even get better around the 150 hr mark. Nobody is saying they are the best in the world, it's just that they sound awesome for the price.

The mid bass sounds great. I really think I have a magical combination of speakers, digital front-end, and now power amps. I didn't listen critically to the Nuforce amps until they had 100 hours on them (upon the dealer's advice). But while I was burning them in (somewhere around 10-15 hours) I casually listened and the mid bass sounded somewhat shallow. But I dismissed it since the amps hadn't burned in yet. But now, I don't hear that shallowness at all. They sound great. These amps are definitely one of the most satisfying audio gear purchases I've made in years.

This weekend with a friend of mine, who is owner of a Nuforce9, we made extensive listening session in my system (see system). I personally think, that the Nuforce9 is as good as any good solid state amplifier in the price bracket and soundprint somewhere between the ML 431 and the Linn Klimax Chakra. Very extended, very quick, very detailed - still it is - to my mind - a typical 'hard' sounding solid state design. In many ways more 'thrilling' soundprint than my Aronov 960LSI tube integrated, but I still felt tonally not correct for acoustic music. Maybe, If I would hear mostly electronic music, I would go for the Nuforce. But with listening preferences of classical music, I think that it is tonally too hard and too 'metallic'. None the less, we have also tried the Nuforce9 plugging into a PS Audio P300 Powerplant. That was a shocking experience. With the P300, the character of the Nuforce has changed completly, resembling more to a rather darkish solid state amplifier, instead of a rather brightish ML or Linn Chakra.

You stated "as good as any good solid state amplifier in the price bracket". Do you mean in the price bracket of the Nuforce? If so, what are you listening to? Because I've never heard a solid state amp anywhere near this price range that comes close to the Nuforce. Granted, I haven't listened to any of the newer digital amps (except the Spectron). The Nuforce Ref 9s are about $2,500 for the pair, and virtually every solid state amp I've heard (with the exception of the Dartzeel) sounds very sterile, which is NOT how I would characterize the Nuforce. At least not in my system. I've never heard either the ML 431 or the Linn Klimax Chakra, so I can't comment on them. I would say that system synergy plays a large role in how good (or bad) these amps sound.

Ajahu , what preamp was being used in your friend's system with the Nuforce Ref 9s?

Sorry for the confusion. The price bracket I meant is where the Linn Klimax Chakra-ML 431 is. So about 6-7000 USD. We used an ML 39 and a TACT 2.0 as cd player and preamp.

Everyone needs to realize that the Ref9 is way different than the 9.02's. If you still have the 9 get it upgraded to 9.02. Some people are saying the 9.02's with extended bass are too bright but I beg to differ because it is not happening in my system with all silver wire. They need over 150 hours run time to be sure. Also I would leave them on all the time. Also, I think Ggil has a great set up for these.

Ggil, I have heard an even later version of the APL Hi-Fi Denon 3910 with Nuforce 8.02b's(with Cardas adaptors for my single-ended preamp), and I have to say that even though the APL had less than 50 hours of the 200-300 minimum burn-in, that unless you are really way up there in tube-land, that they sound fine(or better). I'm not sure, at this point, that cd's that aren't recorded in analog, to begin with, sound good. This is with little experience in this area, but I will try to update as I go along in my listening.

Very nice review in Stereotimes.com, Frank.

cheaper alternative for Nuforce, great sound for the buck:
http://www.audiomatus.com/indexang.html, possibly at least as good as belcanto or nuforce...

Pitdog75,
Any reviews out there? I tried to find complete specs but they were not on web. What associated equipment are you using with these? Did you have Nuforce before Audiomatus?
It would be absolutely amazing to me if there was another company with a better price and equal sound. I would not even consider the belcanto evo's. The bandwidth of the Nuforce and damping factor are far greater. Completely different type of power supply on the Nuforce and I dont think any other manufacturer can use it. I guess I would call them class AS for analog switching power.

Mmakshak, I tried running my Nuforce Ref. 9s single-ended (directly from my APL Denon), but I got quite a bit of noice (hum). A friend of mine also tried running his Opus CD Player direct using single-ended interconnects to my pair of Nuforce and experienced the same noise problem. So I've been running balanced cables from my APL to the Nuforce, and the noise is much lower (almost inaudible). By the way, the Nuforce (and the APL) are very revealing, so any change in cabling you will hear. Wait until your APL Denon has about 200 or more hours of burn-in. It is really a magical player. Have you tried running the APL direct to the Nuforce? Does yours have the AKM DACs? I am very happy with this combo. Now I just some room treatments to dial things in.

I just picked up a pair of these.......totally awesome. Far better than my Oddysey monoblocs........they crush them in terms of transparency, detail, imaging etc..

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that comparisons that have been made are between the NuForce and conventional mid-fi/lower high-end amps. In that case it is not very interesting as conventional amps tend to get better when they are higher priced (not because they are overpriced but because they have larger power supplies, tighter tolerance components etc.). It would be interesting to compare the NuForce and let's say a $8-10,000 US conventional amp. I know this would be unfair, but it remains an interesting comparison. If the NuForce isn't wiped out by the much pricier amp, then it would be very convincing indeed. My own personal experience with an Acoustic Reality (eAR) ICEpower amp (also class D) is that in comparison with the almost 10 times more expensive Accuphase A-50V the eAR is no slouch. That's why I'm not longer convinced of the necessity spending $10-20,000 US (or more) for a conventional poweramp to get good sound.

Chris

Just a few observations to throw into this. I had a pair of Rowland Model 201s, and bought a very early pair of Nuforce Ref 8, the 70W version. The Nuforce was almost impossible to listen to, being hard from the upper midband up. I then opened them up to discover Nuforce obviously had no idea of how to implement an audio design. Not surprising. It is a rare firm that can do the fundamental design and the commercial design too. So I started modding the heck out of it. In some cases all that was required was an improvement in a cap or a resistor quality level (such as they had a poyester cap as the input CD blocking cap - how could they?!!!). Everything else really came down to the fact the design was ultra-wideband, presumably because the theory says this will give you perfect phase response. But in the real world ultra-wideband meant noise in the system, and users would experience different noise issues depending on their situation and particularly in terms of cabling. It took a lot of experimenting to figure out the best ways to reduce the RFI without screwing with the sound but the biggest bang for the buck was putting a choke on the speaker output. Essentially I had to figure out how to eliminate noise getting in through the power cord, the interconnect and the speaker wires. After a lot of hours of 'fun', and very few dollars of playing around, these babies sound utterly glorious with a natural sweetness and delicacy, tied with a vice-like grip to the swing and flow of the music. The 70W version has no problems driving my Verity speakers. The Rowlands have been sold. I am hoping to get a pair of Ref9.02s to do a quick comparison soon. I suspect Nuforce has been doing mainly what I have been doing - implementing the original, and obviously excellent, design properly.

I was trying to say that Nuforce appeared to have no idea how to implement an audio design when they made the Ref8, but that since then (like me) they have been working on getting the implementation right. Using their customers as Beta-testers is not a good look by the way Nuforce. My use of the words 'no idea' were driven by my incredulity that they had used a Polyester cap in the signal path. Do that and you can destroy the sound of any stereo system with a single blow.

Maybe, about the revisions, but if you listen to the current model Ref 9.02, it's an awesome sounding amp that clearly outperforms the bulk of amplifiers on todays market and competes with some VERY expensive units.

True, the many revisions are annoying, but the results of these revisions are giving us sensational performance for the dollar. So consider that too...

I expect to receive a set of the new Reference 9SE amps later this month, and I can't wait! Nuforce is upgrading the internal parts and I believe they are cryo-treating the processing module and a couple other enhancements.

It should be very interesting to compare to the current Reference 9.02.

Something for everyone........a comedy tonight.

Maybe you guys have not read the latest offering from the NuForce gang on Audio Circle. Comedy this good, you can't get just any ol' place.

My contribution to the farce:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?p=233843&highlight=#233843

The intrigue of their, uh.......uh......shall we say latest approach to marketing........ is more interesting reading.

At least to me. You decide for yourselves.

I'm not a fan of digital amps, and they shure must evolve in order to obtain the same level of sound quality of a classic design. So, wait for the next iteraction, it will sound better.
But this is no excuse for lousy engeneering, bad design, weak parts or experimentations.
Customers like to have a definitive design. This policy only leeds to insatisfacton.

>Jp1208 more specs should be on their polish language site, or just write them.
im not interested in digital amps but a friend of mine reviewed a couple of them and this Audiomatus was in the same league as the others, except its price. see, its made in poland and its priced for he local market. in this case one pays for the sound, and not for famous name or sth. and the build quality is great, especially with their wooden front version.
from what i heard, Belcanto (evo4 bridged or sth) sounded worse than Audiomatus... if im not mistaken, Belcanto uses Tripath chip, and Audiomatus ICE-power modules.
i heard some more opinions which all seemed to support what i found out from my friend.

I think the sound quality for the money is unmatched by conventional designs. But that no doubt depends on what you want your amps to do. I prefer the analogue switching amps and find conventional amps sound broken by comparison - unacceptable levels of grain, coloration and an unnatural sound stage. I am talking dollar for dollar here. But I think you will find Nuforce will gradually introduce new 'models' to get their retail price up amongst the big guys over the next few years - now that they have done the hard yards of gaining a brand position.

While I have criticised Nuforce, I believe that with their particular amp modules they have made a real breakthrough. It is not a surprise that a newcomer to the audiophile world is finding the commercial design part of the task difficult to come to grips with. As I said earlier it is rare in the electronic world to find an organisation that can lead in fundamental design and be competent in commercial design of a new product. Intel can't manage it, or more accurately, don't even try.

Most of our admired audiophile brands are only capable of commercial design and perhaps we should be criticising them for failing to deliver any fundamental design breakthroughs - endlessly refining circuit ideas generated decades ago is limiting the whole art.

It is frustrating as a customer for sure. So wait a couple of years if that bothers you. But the bang for the buck is unmatched right now, and the rate at which Nuforce is improving its commercial designs is pretty impressive. Sure they have a bit to learn - and it is laudable that they are doing that in forums such as Audiocircle, and obviously learning some things the hard way.

Hey Pitdog. I agree the Tripath has been surpassed, and I found the Nuforce capable of beating the IcePower, so that kind of gels for me. Any particular reason you are not interested in digital amps? If a digital amp sounded better than your current amp would you still rule it out on some grounds? The only one that I can imagine is that with the rate of development then resale price could be problemmatic, but I suspect that is not it..

Please! The NuForce Reference 9 Special Edition is NOT a replacement of the standard Ref 9. It cost a whopping $2100 per unit versus $1250 for the Ref 9 :).
Please read the Nuforce website for the differences between standard and SE.

The Web site says end of March.

I'd like to wait for that one.

Tvad, surely you jest.

"Is there an estimated release date for the Reference 9.1SE?"
Don't try to be cute :). It is Reference 9 Special Edition, short for Reference 9 SE. Not 9.1

Guys, guys. I’m surprised at some of your comments here. Especially since some of them appear so irresponsible and irreversibly damaging when in fact you haven’t a clue what Nuforce is doing behind the scenes or what their Marketing strategy might be.

For the record, the new Nuforce Ref 9SE special edition amps cost significantly more than the Ref 9.02 amps. They look the same on the outside but are significantly different inside.

And I’d also like to say that Nuforce has produced an amp whose sonic performance appears to be near impossible to achieve at less than $10k. And if you can’t tell that, then you might want to start looking at your other equipment because you obviously have some shortcomings somewhere.

Tvad, your statements are especially disappointing because as an owner of the APL 3910, you have experienced and/or witnessed many revisions to your ucdp but without apparent protest from you. Was APL giving you the best he could in his in his first revision? Perhaps it was the best he could reasonably and cost effectively do at that time. What about APL’s latest revision? And what about the next revision?

Why would you treat Nuforce and their amps any differently? In fact, Nuforce has received far more accolades regarding their performance than APL has. TAS magazine is indirectly and perhaps even directly competitively comparing these little amps to the ASR Emitter II $35k and other far more costly and acclaimed amps which TAS thinks are the cat’s meow. Well, apparently TAS and perhaps Positive-Feedback also thinks the Nuforce Ref 9.02s are the cat’s meow.

I also own the APL 3910 and thoroughly enjoy its superior performance so I certainly am not attempting to slam APL here because it is a fantastic unit. In fact, I think it’s great that Alex, like Nuforce, is always improving the already superior sonics.

But just because these companies come out with an upgrade does not mean we have to jump on it. And if you feel cheated somehow, get over it. You obviously thought the product was worth the money when you bought it. So it’s only in your own head if you feel cheated that the mfg’er has now improved on it.

The point is, name one manufacturer who is giving you their very best. If you are being honest, you can’t. Simply because you do not know what their best is, nor their motives, nor their marketing strategies.

Nor can anybody fully comprehend the true or imagined compromising the mfg’ers face, nor can we fully understand their resulting interpretation and execution of those true or imagined compromises.

Try this one. Which of us as parents would love to do things differently with regard to raising our firstborn?

In other words, younger parents and younger companies have more opportunity and often times more eagerness to learn and grow. In fact, it is typically the younger parent or company who is more attentive and willing to attempt improvements when confronted with shortcomings and/or new technologies or concepts.

Furthermore, there are plenty of companies who have stopped giving their best. Any company that thinks it has arrived and need not continue to perform R&D and provide new improved product is a dying company. But I don’t see anybody ragging on them.

Nuforce’s methodology of revisioning may not be to your liking and that’s fine. But I’ll put the performance of a Nuforce Ref 9.02 amp up against any you’ve tried or even read about and it may very well do more than hold its own. And from the looks of it, the best is yet to come.

Moreover, we all seem to have become accustomed to Microsoft’s and many other software companies’ many upgrades and revisions. Why don’t you guys go rag on them next time your computer hangs? Truly their products are inferior to anything Nuforce makes.

Yet for some reason some of you think that Nuforce products alone should remain stagnant. And if they do not remain stagnant, they are admitting failure or worse for previous released products. That’s being unreasonable and just plain silly.

To bring things a little closer to home, how many of us have swapped out component after component, cable after cable, or even system after system seeking to improve the sonics? What’s so wrong if a company does that with their own products? Not that I am claiming Nuforce is doing that, but if they were, is that not simply illustrating tremendous enthusiasm and pride-of-ownership knowing that no matter how good they or anybody else may their product is today, they know they can do better and are not going to wait until next year. If they were doing this, where’s the crime? And if they are doing this, at the rate their going, 12 months from now there may not be an amp in the universe that can touch them performance-wise.

As one who grew up in GM country (Michigan) I am quite aware that certain companies actually design product to let the customers unknowingly beta test the product at their expense. I’m thinking at the moment of the 1984 Corvette that msrp’ed for $25k. One year later, owners couldn’t give them away. But even that is a bit speculative on my part and yes some to many have become wary of corporations that practice such things.

To anybody’s knowledge, Nuforce has done no such thing. Nuforce, like APL, has been very accommodating to owners to upgrade to the current revision at little and sometimes no cost except shipping. Try that with some other manufacturers or products in other industries.

I’ve never listened to a NuForce Ref. 8 amp, but as I recall that so-called inferior product received some pretty decent reviews. But I know of others (who know their stuff) who have listened and owned the 8s who actually appreciated its sonic qualities.

Make no mistake about it, the Nuforce amps are serious performers and at very reasonable if not extremely affordable prices. In fact, I’d be surprised if there exists an amp under the $10k price that could go toe-to-toe with these beautiful little guys.

I’ve not had the opportunity to audition the new Ref 9 SEs, but what if per chance they blow away all competition? I fear some of you would be right back here posting your little nasties about how Nuforce is constantly improving their product line.

By your reckless and rather silly reasoning you repeatedly attempt to put Nuforce on the hook and you won’t let them off. But they’ve done something here that is almost revolutionary; uncompromised performance, size, aesthetics, cooling, weight and at an almost unheard of price.

I can only imagine how some you must freak out thinking your mothers must have been cheated knowing they have a half-full box of Tide detergent in the laundry room only to see the new and improved Tide on the TV commercials.

-IMO
Yes, I am a relatively new Nuforce dealer. But I was an owner before I became a dealer. And I became a dealer because I could not afford to buy the company.

Ah, I missed the joke.

>Redkiwi the comparison between Audiomatus and Nuforce- pretty close, but Audiomatus was supposedly better. i couldn't care less :)

"Any particular reason you are not interested in digital amps?"
in my opinion they still do not sound as good as a good mosfet amp can for example.

"If a digital amp sounded better than your current amp would you still rule it out on some grounds?"

no place for that, see. i own ATC passive speakers with their integraded. it does sound great, and the way to upgrade for me is to go for active ATC SCM50s or 100s, no separate amp within reasonable cost limits could match this active package.

"The only one that I can imagine is that with the rate of development then resale price could be problemmatic, but I suspect that is not it.."

its a cheap technology and slowly people are realizing it, so the prices are slowly falling. for e.g. JRDG prices for its digital amps seem to be absurd in comparison with some alternatives...

Tvad, I think you do potentially err in your presupposition.

You seem to insinuate that other mfg’ers upgrades are for reasons different than Nuforce’s.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps Nuforce is just a bit more honest than other mfg’ers? I’m not saying they are or are not. But did you ever stop to consider this?

For example, I am aware of a component mfg’er whose distributor performed a wholesale sell off of his entire inventory of the pricey component, thus rendering the product worthless in the marketplace.

To salvage the product and perhaps the company, it is my understanding the mfg’er announced a new and improved version of the product but there were supposedly no changes except cosmetic.

The product was salvaged. But the point being is that neither you, I nor anybody else really have any idea why any company truly announces a new revision.

Whether that story is true or not, we’ll never know. But if it is true, there is just one deceptive reason for a mfg’er’s revision.

That is why I think your’s and other’s comments regarding this particular mfg’er are irresponsible, non-sensical, and potentially damaging.

Because you and others pretend you do know the real motivation for Nuforce performing a number of revisions. Shoot, for all we know maybe they don’t even know why. And that is where I think you and others are potentially deceiving the reader into thinking you are in the know. When the fact of the matter is you and others are just as much in the dark as anybody else.

Perhaps it’s your speaking as fact and authoritative rather than guessing or hypothesizing that I find troubling.

-IMO

NuForce performance better than almost anything up to $10K?

I would love to hear someone A/B the H2oAudio Signature mono's ($5,500 retail) with either the 9.02 or the 9 SE, or next months 9.1 SE...

We made the changes in version 9.02 to fix overheat protection and sonic performance improvement.
We had a debate at that time whether to release it or not.
The advises that I (yes, I personally is responsible for this decision) received from dealers is that we should just follow what many manufactures do in the industry. Track the chances internally with the serial number and don't announce it. Ship new products with the upgrade quietly. If customers have problem, we quietly replace it for them. Then nobody is going to complain that we have to many revisions (after all the upgrades for Ref 8, we should avoid doing that).

My biggest problem with this decision is that I will leave all my previous customers in the dark and deny them of an improvement. We want to build a company with superior product and customer satisfaction. So I decided that we should bite the bullet and not compromise our integrity. I told my guys that we'll take the heat and just try our best to explain our philosophy. Someday people will understand. Having said that, there is no more upgrades for Ref 9. version 9.02 is the last one. We beat the design to death. Ref 9 SE is a higher end product costing a lot more. But keeping our strategy of offering the best as an option to Ref 9 customers, Ref 9 can be upgraded to the SE.

All Nuforce Reference series products can be upgraded with new circuit board or power supply when new technology becomes available.

Wow, unbelieveable, what a hornet's nest this thread has become...

Redkiwi and Stehno, I want to thank you for posting. I hope some folks can see what's really going on here.

My opinion it that the NuForce detractors suffer from a few common human failings, which certainly isn't damning, but it is rather disappointing. I'm talking about shortsightedness, failure to see the big picture, and dare I say -- a certain amount of jealousy.

Personally, I'm extremely thankful for NuForce's novel contributions to home audio reproduction. It's not like their early designs sound bad by any means. But they are improving all the time and that seems to scare some people.

No one says that you have to send the amps back every time there is a small change. My feeling is that if you like the sound you are currently getting then stick with it for a while. If you want to stay current then fine, send the amps back once or twice a year and have them upgraded for very reasonable fees.

NuForce is also unique in offering this level of customer support and service. A lot of other companies will just tell you to sell the old model and buy their new one. Either that or they charge very high prices for their upgrades.

NuForce is a very proactive and progressive company and some folks just can't stand it. I say too bad for them. As for me, I'm enjoying my music more than ever since I changed my reference amplification to NuForce.

Oh yeah, and I'll put my current Reference 9's (nevermind the SE's) up against all comers regardless of price. They will certainly beat the bulk of amplifiers on today's market, and those that can compete will likely cost much more.

I am happy with Nuforce's policy. I am happy that the market is 'buyer beware' unless there have been misrepresentations. I am happy with the Nuforce amps I have and I am upgrading to some new Nuforce amps.

I also appreciate that it is tough being a new guy where you have to pay the bills by selling what you've got, rather than wait till the next round of R&D is spent.

I can understand all that.

Just remember the customer is always right about how he feels about a firm, product or service. He may not be right about the facts, and he may not be listening to you when you tell him the facts, but he is the one that is right, because his decision to buy from you is based on his views, not the vendor's. And he is always right about how he feels.

There is no doubt that Nuforce's teething problems have impacted how customers feel about buying a Nuforce amp. The justifications or rationalisations from Nuforce or its dealers don't change any of that much at all. The upfront nature of Jason at forums here can change things, and I hope already is.

Some of us just need to put it down to experience that a new product from a previously unheard of firm is not likely to have a fully-developed product at its first outing. There are no rules that say they must have a fully developed product either.

Some of us just need to listen to the voice of the customer and understand that the emotions behind the words are driven by real (and always right) feelings about the product or service experience or about the pride, or otherwise, of ownership. And the fact that you know the expressed facts are wrong doesn't change that.

For all the positives about the intrinsic product, the perceived failings are real because customers feel them. That's just the way it is, and if you don't accept it, you may not deserve to have customers. Of course those dopey customers are wrong about how it really happened - you only have to be in business to know that will always be the case. But the only reality that matters is how it occurs to your customers. Be thankful your customers still use your amps, upgrade them and are still interested enough to let you know what they are feeling on this and other forums.

I believe that the future of audio power amps lies with use of prepackaged modules such as ICE or UcD (especially the latter). These modules are intended for application not only in many brands of audiophile equipment but also in Pro Sound and other audio arenas. Because the market is so broad it can support extensive R&D and volume production which leads to low cost without quality impact. And, because of the volume, any bugs get quickly found and fixed.

In the military electronics field wherre I worked for more than 20 years we used to design all our own stuff. No more. Nowadays we mostly use commercial designs, sometimes modified for any unique requirements of the military application. Not only is this a lot cheaper (good for the poor taxpayer) but we have to admit that commercial "off the shelf" electronics are almost always superior in performance to what we could do. This should be no surprise. Think how many millions of dollars TI, Intel, AMD, can invest in the design and development of, for example, a microprocessor. Our volume requirement for an "end of life" production run is typically measured in the hundreds.

A "roll your own" design approach such as used by Nuforce makes for interesting technical work, but perhaps is a commercial dead end. Good thing this audio business is a hobby!

Eldartford, I think your comments amount to nothing more than a lot of very premature conjecture. Personally I believe the true color of the universe is Antique Rose Copper, but then, I could be wrong too. LOL !