Magnan said that hard surfaces make the Nuforce's sound hard. My 4-inch teak did that, but I offer a cheap cure if you followed my mistaken advice. On top of my teak, I put a small isonode, then a myrtle block, and then the amps. Total cost, including shipping, is under $30 per amp(assuming you get your myrtle from the guy who sells them on Audiogon).
>>Its going to be a very intersting combo using the new Nuforce loudspeakrs in combination with with a pair of 9 or 9SE's. Anyone heard the speakers yet<<
I'm against animal testing in most cases but there are exceptions...............
Its going to be a very intersting combo using the new Nuforce loudspeakrs in combination with with a pair of 9 or 9SE's. Anyone heard the speakers yet?
Greetins all, I personally haven't heard a Nuforce yet. But I bought a pair of Channel Island D200s about a year ago and have found them to be the best amps I've ever heard, period. Just some food for thought considering they compete very closely with the Nuforce in price etc. Happy listening...
I believe that it was an Italian review of the Nuforce's that said isonodes under the amps sounded better. I'm just offering another view. Something to experiment with(I have isonodes, also.). It seemed like isonodes provided more detail, but when I heard the Nuforce's directly on the 4-inch teak, it sounded much more solid outside my house. Many people would choose the detail-just because it's detail, while I disagree. I think that you have to go with the solid sound. I believe that it is intuitive, versus intellectual.
I want to mention that I put the Nuforce 8.5's directly onto 4-inch teak(defeating the footers of the Nuforce). The teak sits on Bright Star Audio isonodes. Before, the amp sat with their footers on the teak, and there were no isonodes between my preamp and the teak. I believe(strongly) this last tweak improved the solidity of the sound. I'm not really advocating teak(as I bought it to help pay off a debt), but it's food for thought. The current thinking is maple, and 4-inches is better than 2-inches(per Mapleshade). And you guys thought that I was obscure?
Hi guys, has anyone heard of the Reference Audio Mods www.referenceaudiomods.com modification of the Reference 9? Any idea how this might compare with the SE upgrade?
I am very happy with my Nuforce 8.5's. I also believe that the standard power cord supplied is not the normal throwaway. Blame Casey for that, I believe. I had the opportunity to hear the Audio Research Reference 3 preamp, Lamm 2.1 amps, Nordost Valhala interconnects and speaker cable, some expensive line conditioning, and a total room ASC(?) do-over. This is a dedicated room, also. My god!, this stuff exceeds my abilities. Hell(notice I've mention both hell and god?), my recent(3 weeks old) APL Hi-Fi's Denon 3910 exceeds anything that I would expect(thank you, Alex!). Jp1208, I appreciate your advice on the 8.5's versus the 9.02's. I have a bid on one disc that I heard on the mucho-expensive system(It included Wilson Alexandria's-a $135,000 speaker system.), so I can't completely comment until I've heard this disc on my system. I can comment that it sounded incredible on Steve's(Oneobgyn) system. The regular cd didn't come close on my system, though. But, what prices are we talking about here?
Summitav, don't take offense on my questions here, please. I don't believe that the standard power cord supplied with the Nuforce is the normal throw-away. I believe Jason spent time coming up with it. Therefore, I would ask what differences you find with the Audioquest power cords(each one). I would especially like comments comparing them with the standard power cord-eliminating any preconceived notions about throw-away power cords.
I am a NuFORCE dealer and I generally supply or suggest the AudioQuest NRG-2, NRG-3, and NRG-5 Power Cords for use with the NuFORCE.
They also have the Graphite Choke (as does the stock cord), high quality sheilding, as well as very high grades of copper, with sturdy plugs and hardware.
These are so good that many times, I will throw them in as a bonus to the NuFORCE package.
I think I've got the static issue under control by changing where stuff was plugged in.
The more I listen, the more impressed I am with these amps. The most noticeable improvements are, low noise, greatly improved dynamics(macro & micro) and the ability to stay focused, even when the music gets complex or loud.
Anywhere near this price, I think they're going to be hard to beat.
Ecruz - this is off topic, but I am in the same boat...listening at night, with kids, and their monitors...when I am home that is-
Although this might not fix your interference issues with the NuForce, check out Sony's Babycall monitors. They are voice activated. That means that they don't make a sound [no static] until the child makes a noise. Once there is a noise at the sending unit, it will kick-on for as long as the noise persists, then shuts off after a couple of seconds.
I use two [one for each kid] in my basement listening room/HT. They also have changeable channels/frequencies so you can have two that don't interfere with each other. Since they run silent until a problem, I can enjoy the quiet. These are a MUST HAVE for any audiofile/videophile with kids.
As soon as I turn on the amps my Squeezebox picks up static and all of the baby monitors go to full-blown, loud, static.
My serious listening is done via my cd player, but I love & don't want to give up the Squeezebox for casual listening. Also, most of my serious listening is at night after the kids & wife go to bed. My wife won't like a loud, staticie (sp?) baby monitor in her ear all night.
The Squeezebox is on the same dedicated circuit. The monitors are in other parts of the house.
After listening some more, the low noise of the units really lets a lot of detail come thru that I didn't know was there. Plus I've never heard such tight bass from my Vandersteens.
I recieved a pair of 9.02's yesterday. Supposedly partially broken in. First impression, really quiet, pretty dynamic, they're good but I'm not sold yet. One issue is the EMI/RFI.
Couple of questions.
What changes can I expect after full break-in? How can I cut the EMI/RFI noise? What power cables work well with them?
Mmakshak and Jp1208, as you know I too am very impressed with the Speltz cables and consider them potentially a best buy of this century in the audio industry.
Since the Speltz made my old pair of $3500 ics sound veiled in the highs and bloated in the bass, I suppose I could say a pair of Speltz Anti-ICs are worth at least 35 times their sale price.
However, there are a few even better performing scs and ics that are still quite reasonably priced.
For example the Audio Tekne ics and scs provided me a significant improvement over the Speltz' cables including a nice doze of musicality. Considering the outrageous prices of some cabling, the Audio Teknes which are one of the very best I've heard to date, should also be considered a tremendous bargain. Especially when the Tekne's performance appears to be without compromise.
Moreover, the Teknes are a beatiful match with the fabulous Nuforce SEs.
If you should ever try them, keep in mind they will sound like a pair of poorly engineered silver ics for the first 100 or so hours.
It will take more than 75 hours if all the parts are new. More like 250. The highs should be there then and they probably sound a little compressed right now. 10 days 24/7 then let us know what you think. As far as comparing the Speltz anti ic's and the Signal Silver's on analog, it will never happen here at least in the near future. I can see where the Signal Silver's could sound better on analog though. Midrange on the Nuforce 9.02's were lean with most other cables on my cdp. The Speltz anti ic's really filled in the mids without compromising the highs and rolling them off. The micro detail and black background is more in line with reference ic's. The DIYer's are giving the big boys a run for there money on cables these days. Talk about a budget reference system, Nuforce and Speltz is where I would start at least on the digital side anyways. The money you save here will afford you a better cdp and I would also recommend not keeping that cdp stock for very long.
Jp1208, I am very interested in the Speltz. I haven't gotten back with you, but I upgraded my 8.02b's to 8.05's, which allows me to upgrade further. Thank you Casey for the clarification(because I know it's you). I'm now on maybe 15 hours on the 8.5's. So far(and they recommend 75 hours of music), the 8.5's have the midrange, but I also miss(although, it's maybe contrived) the added treble detail of the 8.02's. I'm using Signal Cable Silver Resolutions, which have Eichmann Silver RCA's. Boy, do I love a discussion! I've done some other things, but I think that Jp1208 is the final arbitrator on this. It seems like, so far, that the 8.5's don't have that treble detail that the 8.02's had. This is on analog, and that's not a negative on the 8.5's, as their midrange is so something, but Jp1208 has both the Speltz and the Silver Resolutions. He just needs to compare them both on analog. Let's open this up? I want to thank Jp1208 for even telling me that I could upgrade(I had given up.).
my ref 9.2s are going in next week for se, if anyone has upgraded how long before you got them back, one other thing does any of you use the p-8 preamp with you amps, i find the combo a very fine marrage.
To clarify: There is no 8.05. Mr. Mmakshak upgraded his Reference 8 (with 8.02 PCB) to Reference 8.5 (same power supply, bigger case). Reference 8.5 comes with the same 8.02 PCB.
Our PCB revision stood at X.02 since 2005 October. Ref. 8, 8.5, 9, or 9SE all use the same X.02 PCB. The 9SE enjoys some parts upgrade on the 9.02 PCB, otherwise, identical to the others.
Mmakshak, I am a bargain audiophilist and Nuforce for amps has got to be the most ridiculously best low priced reference amp ever! 8.05's? Now that is a smart shopper. Eventually you will have the SE's and can say you are done with amps. If the SE's are way better than the 9.02's then I would have to say they could possibly sound as good as amps ranging in the 15k category. Dartzeel comes to mind.
Let me just say that I've heard $100,000 amps, and the 8.02's aren't disgraced in this company. Why am I changing? Good question. First, I use the the 8.02's with Cardas adaptors, which adds another connector to the situation. Second, I was told that the Nuforce 8's were actually a single-ended amp by two audio manufacturers(Ori of Oritek Audio, and Alex of APL Hi-Fi), and I have 8.02b's. Third, getting the 8.05's(or maybe the 9.02's) allows me to talk about things without getting dismissed. Let me just say, that the used 8.02's(insist upon this) represent an incredible value, although I don't know the cost. I use them with the cheap Volex power cords and have them on 4-inch teak, while leaving them on all the time. E-mail me if you've gotten them, if you don't think they are absolutely incredible. Here is your chance to own as good as the best!
I've had the Nuforce 8's, 8.01's, and 8.02's(all b's with a single-ended 80's preaamp{RGR). If you are going used, and you have a preamp, you need to investigate the 8.02's. Even though I heard the 9.02's, I can't imagine anything exceeding the 8.02's. You now know my capabilities. I will be getting, at least the 8.05's. For those not in the know, it means I have the capability to upgrade to the 9's. I am broke, broke! You would not believe the 8.02's. Let's quit kidding. These amps are phenomenal! I am a scientific janitor(a graduate of Nuclear Power School, who spent 7 years in Chiropractic College). Excuse me, there are some guys in white coats knocking on my front door.
Jp1208, you bring up some good points about burn-in. I wouldn't worry too much about it though. I just installed my second pair of SEs this afternoon and again right out of the box they are easily superior to the Ref 9.02 Premiums.
Considering how good the Ref 9.02 Premiums are, then any further improvements from burn-in over the ensuing weeks is simply icing on an already scrumptious cake. (did I just say that?)
Besides, in my book the SEs are already are at the top. In fact, as positive as the brand new 6moons review is I think the review more accurately depicts the Rev. 9.02's performance than the SEs. But he wrote a good review anyway.
Looking at the bank of capacitors on the SE's the sonics are going to flucuate until they fully break-in. I would give them a solid 300 hours or more without turning them off and play them hard at times. It would not hurt to run a burn-in disc while breaking them in. The 9.02's progressively got better up to the 150 hour mark then really leveled off. The SE's will have step changes and when you get there it will be like someone flipped a switch and added another level. Just read the review and saw the capacitors up close. They are bigger than I thought. There is absolutely no way you can tell how good these are going to sound at the 80 hour mark. I would never turn these off and let those capacitors drain. Short periods yes, long periods no way! Only review that I am going to consider is from someone who has done there homework on these. It is believe it or not a complete makeover from the 9.02's and I think the results between the two are going to be staggering which will put the SE's very near the top. Vibration control with these will be more critical than ever. Especially where all those caps are located. I could be wrong here but $1500 for an upgrade from the 9.02's to the SE's could be an absolute steal if indeed nuforce makes the 9.02's exactly the same as the SE's. I am going to find out if they do.
Huge advantage of Nuforce is the controlled lower end and size. Someone once told me that these amps sounded lean to them. Yes, they are built that way for a reason. Very nuetral and natural sounding having great depth and openess. It is up to the individual to taylor these to there liking. Every change you make you will notice. The only thing you wont find with these is a muddy lower end. My hunch is with the tubed pre you will find the richness in the mids and not lose the highs. Rukavina, do you know how many hours are on the SE's?
Just borrowed the Nuforce SE's for the 30 day trial. Currently comparing them to my McIntosh mc501 mono's(500 watts/channel). The first thing I noticed, and I have only run them for about 1 hour is that I get about a 3db volume increase above the Macs at the same volume setting. The second thing I noticed is that if there are many instruments in the recording I can more easily hear them individually. The soundstage depth is startling. I keep looking at these little guys at a third of the power of my macs and wondering how could this be. The walls are easily shaken with bass as, same as the Macs, but the purity and clarity of the Nuforce SE's is like I have never heard before. I am currently using a Pass Labs X2.5 preamp and today will run the Nuforce's through my McIntosh c2200 tube preamp. They are driving Von Schweikert VR$ SR's. I was watching the woofers displacement and I can see more fine and rapid oscillations using the Nuforce compared to the Macs. The Macs are 110lbs each so at this point my only reservation in selling them is that I have to lift them!
Mmakshak, I have 8.02's and 9.02's the 9's are more revealing through the full range. But, my 9's also have the wbt's and are the extended bass version. I am not sure if the two use the same power supply either. Both are really good though. I might upgrade to the 9se's. We will see when more reviews come out. Is your 3910 going to have all the bells and whistles?
Look, apparently, I cannot upgrade my Nuforce 8.02b's to either 8.05's or 9's. Anyhow, the 8.02's are fantastic amps in their own right. As sources, I use Linn, Ekos, Archiv(circa 1992), Mana table-APL Denon 3910 cd player(currently being modified). What does that tell you about Nuforce? If I were in the market, I would investigate the Nuforce 8's(make sure they are 8.02's), and maybe their integrated amp. I don't feel like I'm missing anything with the 8.02's, and I've listened to the 9's.
I hope people don't mind, but I haven't read all the responses here, yet. I have been an enthusiast for Nuforce amps, as shown by my previous posts on it. What I'm objecting to here is that I was told that only way I could update by Nuforce 8.02b's to 8.05's or 9's was to sell my 8.02's and buy a 9. I could listen to the 9's for free they said. I guess that I waited too long. Now, let me just say that the 8.02's are fantastic amps. It's just that I have to use the Cardas adaptors to match my single-ended RGR. I have been told by two designers that this was not good in this instance(although Ayre use them successfully in their stuff). I guess I waited too long. Boy, those guys are quick! Hell, I might prefer the 8.05's to the 9's! Who knows? I'm not your conventional audiphile. BTW, don't listen to the naysayers about the Nuforce's. They are fantastic!
I was referring just to vibration control, and I tend to agree with you, manufacturers should not incorporate bladders, special spongey feet etc. That would be a nuisance. When I typed that I had in mind flimsy or poorly designed casings, such as in the early Nuforces, and the much better ones used now. Or appropriate standoffs to isolate circuit boards. There are some basic things not all manufacturers adequately address that you don't want to be fiddling with later (having to rebuild the box) or having to compensate for.
I have to say the power conditioner market appears to get some decent products, but there are very few vibration isolation products that are really effective.
If you have any thoughts on a conditioner that will work on 230V I would appreciate it. Especially something to feed a couple of digital components.
For the last 3 or 4 years, I've been quite a stickler for proper line conditioning and have owned what I consider the best line conditioners available in the Foundation Research units. However, the vast improvements of the latest versions have forced me to become even more dogmatic about their rightful place in a system. So much so that I'm convinced the weak link in music reproduction is probably a lack of proper line conditioning on the engineering side.
Now I do differ from your statement about a component mfg'er doing all they can to address line conditioning and/or vibration control.
To me that would be a bad thing. I believe I stated earlier in this thread that the best thing a mfg'er could do regarding these two ingredients is stay neutral.
That's because there are multiple methodologies to select from and multiple ways to execute. If a mfg'er chooses an inferior methodology, then that product becomes not worthless but worth less to me.
And just because a mfg'er knows how to build an amp or a cd player does not mean they inherently know the first thing about proper line conditioning or vibration control.
I'm certainly not saying I'm an expert in these areas, but I do know that there are different methodologies and they most always clash rather than compliment. And I'd hate to have others make those decisions for me.
BTW, would you be too upset if I changed the name of my company from Dynamic Contrasts to Redkiwi? It would be strictly for martketing purposes. :)
My thoughts are very close to yours Stehno. To add to them.
IMO the peak performance limit of a system is usually defined by the quality of the AC power available.
IMO noone knows what components can really sound like till they have heard them without the effects of vibration removed, and that is a near impossibility. Some components are far more susceptible to having their sound ruined by vibration than others. While the manufacturer ought to do as much as possible to address that in the design, equally end-users experiences may differ markedly according to how well they address vibration issues.
Hi, Drubin. Yes, I've stated that my experience concludes that the amplifier is the key to a system's performance whether good or bad.
However, I do not recall ever qualifying that statement with the 'low listening volume' you mentioned above.
My opinion of the amp being the single greatest factor to a system's sonics has not changed. In fact, the Nuforce Ref 9s and now the SEs have only further substantiated that opinion.
Of course if the Nuforce amps were a bad experience, I don't think I would have thought any less about the significance of the amplifier's role. I most likely would have only thought I simply made a bad choice for an inferior product.
Where I have changed my opinion a bit is that my experience also tells me that proper line conditioning and then proper vibration control are right behind the amplifier respectively and are far more critical than I previously thought.
It's probably no coincidence that I also think these three ingredients are also by far the most misunderstood with the most mis-applied methodologies in the industry. That is probably why I prioritize them as 1,2,3. (I think there are a total of 7 ingredients).
But for me these first 3 ingredients are foundational to building a superior system and it is simply impossible to do so without carefully scrutinizing these three.
And the amount of money spent on a component or the number of people adhering to a certain methodology has nothing to do with rectifying a products' shortcomings. Nuforce and Foundation Research product prove that.
Sorry if I sound like an infomercial, but I do have my own experience and convictions and I freely stated these same convictions before I ever thought I'd become a retailer.
I have a question about the NuForce that is probably a bit off topic. NuForce amps are known for transmitting high frequency noise into the environment. This high frequency noise could be the reason for interference when one is trying to receive FM radio broadcast by antenna. What happens if my neighbour has a NuForce and I want to get FM radio broadcast by using an indoor antenna? Is it likely that such a procedure would be "sabotaged" by the amp? If that is the case, that would be a very serious topic. The manufacturer should be warned: it could result in some kind of sewing.
Stehno: Over the years, in discussions about getting good system performance at low listening volume, you have voiced a particular point of view, which is that the amplfier is the key factor. How do you feel the Nuforce amps perform in this respect?
Denf, after purchasing my first pair of Nuforce amps last September, I immediately sold my beloved McCormack DNA-2 Revision A (an excellent amp), I purchased the Nuforce amps and became a dealer for them. So please take that into consideration as I respond.
Regarding your question about line conditioning benefiting the Nuforce amps? Absolutely! As would any edge-of-the-art component.
In fact, I have 3 Foundation Research LC-100s installed right now. These line conditioners cost $3k each, are worth every penny, and are dedicated (1 per component) and are the best I am aware of (just like the Nuforce amps) and I also recently became a Foundation Research dealer as well. But I've owned Foundation Research line conditioners since 2001 simply because every decent or better system will benefit tremendouly from 'proper' line conditioning.
The Nuforce amps benefit even more than less revealing amps because they are so darn revealing of every tiny nuance where the music really lives. And a tremendously revealing component is indiscriminent about what it reveals, whether it's a musical note or AC noise, or a fault within another component.
So yes, the Nuforce amps will benefit tremendously from proper line conditioning because they offer so much musical information. Proper being the key word here because not amps are created equal nor are all line-conditioners. Most of my customers also own several Foundation Research line conditioners.
I'll be happy to share more detail of the SEs as they burn-in later. They only have about 35 hours on them and I don't expect them to fully come into their own until perhaps after 140 hours. However, I just sold this pair this morning and I only have another day to burn them in further, so I may not realize their full potential for a few more weeks until they are replaced and I start the whole burn-in process all over again.
I am a new dealer but I'm a tweaking enthusiast first and foremost. For these SEs to be better than the Ref 9s right out of the box to me says a lot because the Ref 9s were simply the best amps I've heard to date.
Stehno, congrats on your SE's. Let me know at the 150 hour mark. By the way I am using 3' speaker cables, what a difference that made. Put some nice thick jumper wires between the amps and speakers would probably improve more. Denf, Stehno had the 9.02's before and I think 8.02's. Let us 9.02 owners know how much different they are in % better in your system. Thanks again Stehno!
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