Finding the right semiconductors can be a real challenge, in addition to all the failing electrolytic capacitors, of which there can be upwards of 100 in a larger receiver! There are a lot of Chinese knock-offs flooding ebay these days; these are parts that look correct (right down to the logos printed on them) but don't meet the minimum spec! So you have to be really careful and picky when rebuilding a vintage receiver- it will be an act of love and nothing else, since you will never get the cost of doing so out of the result, nor will it ever perform at the level that modern equipment does.
Old Classic Receivers: A Mistake to Buy?
I was contemplating purchasing a 70's receiver, as I used to love the construction and appearance of the Sansui, Kenwood, Pioneer, Marantz. However, when I ran this by an audio friend, he said, "Forget it."
He says: They sound terrible. The caps & resistors used before the early 90s' were dreadful. The electrolytics are drying up and will start crackling and substantially degrade the sonics. The switches and controls used were almost never sealed, so they deteriorate and make noise and can't be fixed even by taking them apart and cleaning them.
Tuners: He says that nearly all non-digital tuners used varactors, which go out of alignment and cause problems, so no old tuners, with the exception of the Mac MR-78 and possibly a few others, are worth dealing with.
I am tempted to believe all that he is saying is true, but I see a market for these items, and also know that people claim they are still using these pieces for 25 years.
What's the truth here? Can some of the techies enlighten me?
He says: They sound terrible. The caps & resistors used before the early 90s' were dreadful. The electrolytics are drying up and will start crackling and substantially degrade the sonics. The switches and controls used were almost never sealed, so they deteriorate and make noise and can't be fixed even by taking them apart and cleaning them.
Tuners: He says that nearly all non-digital tuners used varactors, which go out of alignment and cause problems, so no old tuners, with the exception of the Mac MR-78 and possibly a few others, are worth dealing with.
I am tempted to believe all that he is saying is true, but I see a market for these items, and also know that people claim they are still using these pieces for 25 years.
What's the truth here? Can some of the techies enlighten me?
101 responses Add your response
My feeling is this is one of those fads thats going to burn its away through the community and then people will sell them off eventually and prices will drop. I have been doing this since the 70s and personally I think you can't reheat an old shuffle. Beware and just dont throw too much money at it. Repairs can quickly shift the receiver out of a reasonable price vs value window. |
I have to partially agree with the original statement. Think of a stereo receiver as a rotting basket of fruit. Once that fruit has finished rotting, you have to cut out all the ortten parts and in many cases it's just not worth it. In 1967 our family bought a 140w sherwood 7800 AM/FM receiver. By 1984-5 it was not working properly. Turns out the selector switch had rusted. But, it failed in a way (Only the FM section wasn't working) that appeared like it was an electronics issue. I am kind of a klutz (despite graduating the previous year with an EECS degree from MIT), and screwed it up a lot before I figured out the actual problem. If you have ever worked on a British-Leyland car (triumph, mg, mini cooper), you will understand. If you don't drive those cars for 30d, everything stops working, all the electrics are brass and they corrode and stop working. The car must be driven or else it fails - totally, and i mean everything, no ignition, no headlights, no nothing! With many stereo receivers this can happen too. Although nearly 100% of components can be replaced with modern components, i think a lot of people buy these items for the challenge and because they are handy enough to swap the components themselves and they enjoy having the look of vintage items in their house. The more modern (1982+) stereo receivers had excessive feedback amplifiers to get the specs down to 0.08% or 0.05% THD. That really screws up the sound in some way that many people can't quite explain. So they buy an older receiver with the 0.25%, 0.5%, or 1% THD (our state-of-the-art FET Sherwood 7800 is an example of a great receiver with 1% THD). Having said this, I just bought a vintage 1990's cassette deck, a Yamaha KX-W952, and it just arrive at my house 30m ago ... By the way, our Sherwood S-7800 cost $349 in 1967. I am amused that today you can have one for the low-low price of $255-$299. Not worth it, imho. Once you experience a "do not repair" stereo component, you are through, for life ... |
So did he ever buy anything? Do you still think it was overpriced KEV? Check out the prices today!! You could have made a fortune even if you didn't like the way it sounded. I sure do love the way all my old 70s Marantz gear sounds and it all performs flawlessly!! I have Marantz 2385 2285b 2500, several 300dcs and 170dcs and 3250s 1180dcs on and on and on. People are blown away when they come to my house to hear my rigs. Occasionally the pots need to be sprayed with dioxit but that's it!! I have had a few pieces recapped but they often sound identical to the ones that haven't been recapped. The stuff today is junk. The 70s Marantz were the best sounding stereo compononts off all time period end of story. Seperates were better than receivers but even receivers blow away new stuff. The boards are so thick and have so much copper in them you wouldn't believe it! I've tried newer amps with massive power and they have nice solid bass but the mids are harsh and tinny sounding. You asked if anyone has had it for more than four years? Me and it's all forty years old so I think it's built well! It's hard to take someone seriously that doesn't actually own the gear and do side by side testing. The new Marantz $2000 receivers weight like 20lbs. They are alarm clocks Kev! |
Well, I swing both ways and with that disclosure I am admitting to the opinion that it is certainly not a mistake to invest in some solid state vintage if you wish to be sonically satisfied. I wont B.S. you about having an $8000. tube setup (and then display a lack of basic grammar). I have a very reasonable Fisher 400 as my office (home office) receiver, a rather vintage Denon 1650 AR (well 2 of these, but one in this system), a Luxman PD 441/Micro Seiki MA-505 w/Orsonics headshell & tonight will be putting on a NOS Koetsu Black cartridge.A pair of Silver Tannoy 15's which I purchased at goodwill inside of a Radio of America stereo cabinet, along with the Fisher receiver/400 and a Telefunken TT ..all for 65 dollars. In my bedroom I have two Luxman receivers as the alternate hearts to that system. One, the oft repeated in these threads R-1120 and the other, its brawny little brother, the R1050. I MUCH prefer the soundstage of the 1050...especially in combo with a Luxman G-11 equalizer. It has no decay in the bass drop off and has crystalline clarity along the treble line ...w/no appreciable (that I can hear) distortion ...any livable volume. It is also connected to the twin Denon CD player/1650 AR and a pair of Boston Acoustic A-70's. Despite having Some incredibly nice equipment (for my pocketbook and knowledge) in my main system, my bedroom system does, despite being an 'old' solid state receiver /s sounds nearly as good. Much has to do with the age of my ears perhaps, but a great deal has to do with what Luxman brought to the table in the 70's and 80's. That G-11 equalizer alone is a deal maker...I have set it up with a few friends systems and never left their home without a ,"sorry its not for sale" . Yes the Fisher system with the 15" Dual Concentric Monitors is breathlessly transparent and needs to stay between 2 and 3 on the volume...no higher before the ears go, but for the donuts to dollars, the basically Luxman system is no slouch at all. |
Okay ... if you want to build a bedroom or dorm system on the cheap, ched out the Sherwood 7100 or the 7100A. The 7100 is more tube-like and the 7100A is more of a solid state sound. I've had a Sherwood 7100 in my bedroom for a few years now ... twenty bucks at a thrift store. Really fine examples can be found on Ebay for a hundred bucks. Here's one that looks to be in near mint condition: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sherwood-S-7100-A-Vintage-Receiver-Beautiful-Condition-Works-Good-/172171537... Happy listening ... |
The money that's spent on them tells the whole story. In particular for Pioneer's receivers. The SX-xx50 and xx80 series hold their value for the same (good) reasons classic Mac gear does. But they are meant to be used with the speakers (Bart Locanthi designs like the L-x00 and HPM x00 series) with which they were designed to be mated. They don't do simultaneous high current and high voltage as well as new specialty amps do. If you use a reasonably high sensitivity/efficiency speaker, they sound better than anything mass market has offered since. The 950 and larger (and newer) are bargains in terms of quality per dollar. I'd grab em all day long. (In point of fact, I have. I've got a 980, two 1080's, a 1280 and two 1980's, all kicking it in vintage systems through out the house....) |
Old audio gear is like old cars...they have unique charms but usually require some maintenance to continue to run well as time goes on. Not as much or as regular as cars, but you get the drift. I am fond of the old stuff too. Some of it is very good still even by modern standards. Pricing on the used market is usually in line with the actual value compared to other options. Some pieces might carry a premium due to being "collector items" for various reasons, usually having something to do with unique performance or design. o not a mistake to buy, but realize that any receiver, old or new, has to make compromises to fit everything in a relatively small package and still perform well, especially with things that matter for best performance with many modern, smaller full range speakers, like size and quality of the power supply, there will almost always be better performing options out there, both old and new. |
Hi, I know this is an old post but I have a Sansui G9000 pure power receiver hooked up to Mach 1 speakers and it still sounds great. It looks and sounds like new. No bleeding caps and the tuner still functions as new. I know this is hard to believe but I have cleaned it inside and out every 6 months since I got it in 1982. This receiver was originally hooked up to Cerwin Vega and Polk audio speakers. For a while I used it as my main amp for my surround system. This thing will rock the house and you can hear it up the street when it gets cranked (Not very often). So don't listen. If you buy an old receiver and it was a top end one chances are it will last a long time. My new Onkyo's 7.1 surround amps and receivers had always had issues and the Pioneer elite system was not much better. I have a Denon DP-62L with a grace cartridge and a Pioneer PR 707 hooked to it as well and it sound great.So buy and enjoy. |
it goes on and on. i have had problems with older gear, i have had some that worked fine, but always have sold at an opportune time. there is a lot of nostalgia, and those old receivers sure do look cool. like older cars- a plymouth roadrunner or baracuda, etc. best kept in the garage most of the time. nice to have though. vintage and antique items are nice to have. i can tell you this- in a shop i listened to a marantz 1070 and yamaha 1020. several people in the shop all agreed the marantz sounded markedly better. i recently did some comparing of jolida gear as i am a dealer to a mac 1900 we took in on trade. it is in very nice condition. the jolida gear both hybrid and tube sounds considerably better. several people agree with that. even the jolida 20wpc tube amp sounds a good deal better. and the jolida gear looks nice. elegant in the simplicity. i have had a pair of advent 6003 speakers which were about the best sounding speakers i have ever heard. i frequently use klipsch speakers to demo gear. i have had marantz, old pioneer, mac, and others. no way do any of those sound as good as jolida 1701 50wpc hybrid amp. and none have sounded anywhere close to any of their tube amps. and cost nearly as much as something nice and new. however, some of the vintage gear has an investment value. i like that. |
I owned a Pioneer SX-650 when I was a teenager 30 years ago. I used it to spin records while I played along on a drum kit. I used it as an amp in a band, and listened to FM radio all night long, sometimes alone and sometimes with a friend. I used to polish the wood and chrome and really thought I had something and everyone else did to. It finally gave up the ghost about 10 years later and I threw it away. I never forgot about that old receiver and when a nice once came up on E-bay for $100 bucks I bought it without hesitation. Now it sits in an entertainment center in my living room and sometimes I just go in there and look at it. I don't even turn it on and it still brings me great pleasure. So what it is worth? You tell me. I can tell you that I have zero interest in selling it. Sometimes it's not about the sound and more about the memories. I guess some people just don't get that. |
Yamaha. I have the MX1000U, CX1000U, CR1020, others. I've had Yamaha MX10000U, CX10000U, CR2020. I've been very satisfied with the quality. Really a good deal on today's market if you find any of these in decent condition. These preowned components seem to outperform new equipment costing 2 to 3 times more. Recap them and change out the power cord and they really come to life. Yamaha was ahead of its time with these. Go online and read the specs and you'll see I'm not blowing smoke. Built with mostly premium parts, power cords excluded but befitting the times. |
I'd put my McIntosh MAC1900 receiver up against just about any amp-pre separates in the 55W-75WPC range. Tuner/preamp/power amp sections extremely well designed and I feel it's the smoothest and most musical sounding of the SS McIntosh receivers as it's 100% discrete in the preamp/power amp stages. The MAC4100 etc. used OPAMP's in the Preamp stages [that can be upgraded for better sonics over the NE5534]. The MAC1900 is basically an MA6100 with an AM/FM tuner. Disclaimer: I'm service manager for Nagra USA and dCS America and an Authorized McIntosh Service Center. |
When I was in high school in the '70s I worked one summer for a local stereo store, mostly in the back. All the money I made (and more) went into Luxman gear. I still have all of it except the turntable, which I foolishly traded when I got married in 1980. Long story short - my daughters still use my old Lux gear to spin vinyl. One uses my old R-404 receiver, which still sounds surprisingly good. My younger daughter uses the old L-405 amp and a pair of Klipsch KG-4s. I have done minimal maintenance on the gear over the years, mostly CLAs. I am pleasantly surprised how well this gear has held up, and also the fact that it is still providing great sound. |
Hmmm, interesting old thread ;) Okay, i will test that. Bought a wonderful Pioneer SX 1010, it gets 220V now, a severe cleaning and new caps (in work, still have to fetch it which needs time, it's in a far far away country, haha). Will be tested in 2 utterly different but very high end systems, 4 High End guys will be the listeners. In system 1 it replaces a tube Pre/Power Monos combination (yep, with Telefunkens, RCA Black Caps and old WEs), in system 2 it will replace a ASR Emitter (yep, with all singing and dancing). Will tell you in some time about the outcome ;o) Have fun until then Jack |
I generally disagree with your friend. I've had the new (a Krell, Conrad Johnson) but I've kept the classics. I'm a fan of vintage Yamaha. Have had a CR1020 integrated since purchased new in 1979 and an MX1000U amp/CX1000U preamp with the family equalizer since the 80's. Everything works terrifically. The CR1020 drives a pair of JBL L65s and the amp/preamp 1000s drive 4, McIntosh XR7s and 2, XR5s in a wonderfully pleasing manner across all music genre. [Admittedly the JBLs are better with rock and heavier jazz recordings.] I have found that gaining similar performance would truly require a seriously greater investment. When serious musicians and audiophile friends hear my main system they are taken aback. It's about the music and the music sounds absolutely fantastic, especially for the investment. Buying vintage wisely is really not that different than purchasing new equipment. One key exception: the investment risk is greater with new equipment. Resell a piece of new equipment and in most cases the discount one had to offer from that paid is quite notable. |
I have Accuphase E-202 integrated SS and love it. Scott 299b is another integrated which is in my possession (tube). Both represent the sentimental value rather then SOTA components. But they do fine job considering there age. Accuphase is very special because it is a SS design which I usually stay away from but this one is really fun and I might decide to do some mods on it in the future to bring it up to speed with the rest of my gear. Sweet and flexible. Just my 2c. Mariusz |
I bought a Sansui 90-90 in Japan back in the late 60s and loved it 'til I was seduced by the newer stuff with remote controls and surround sound. I wouldn't junk the Sansui so put it away where it has rested for a few decades while I played with a great Yamaha R9, eventually set aside for newer hi tech receivers with more flexible switching and more modern interface connections. A few weeks ago with nothing better to do I retrieved the Sansui 90-90 from the closet, hooked it up to my other toys (Definitive Technology BP10Bs; Klipsch KG 5,5S, KG 4s And KLF 10s; Boston Acoustic VR 965s and my old AR3as and AR 98LSs.) Not all at the same time of course. I alternated the Sansui 90-90 with my most recent receiver, Pioneer Elite VSX 91 TXH and an older Onkyo 702 and also switched to the amp in the old Yamaha R9 and also to a pair of old Carver M-500s. It was all unscientific subjective listening, but for two channel stereo, CDs and AM/FM radio, the Sansui 90-90 with the AR3as sounded the most natural to me. A pair of old ADS 500s sounded as good as the ARs except for the weakness in the bass which the small ADS drops off about 45 hz while the ARs are down only about 10 db at 20hz according to my SPL meter. True, the old Sansui doesn't have the hi tech switching and connecting flexibility, doesn't have remote control, weighs 52 lbs so it's harder to move around than the lighterweight hi tech things made today, but for 2 channel music to my ears, it doesn't take a back seat to the new stuff of the class described above. I've never heard receivers or amps that sell in the multi thousand $ range so don't know how it would stack up with them. Is the Sansui and the AR3A really that good, or am I living with totally ignorant ears? |
. I once owned a Sansui 771 receiver that yielded beautiful sound in its day (the 1970's). No matter how nostalgic I get about how good it sounded, it is not in a class with today's separates. Anyone that says so must be out of their mind. Those receivers have their place, but they don't belong in the same conversation or arena with today's serious separates. . |
Greetings all, I have to agree with the fact that a lot of these vintage pieces will show their age. I'm finally upgrading my system after 20 years of use because as a number of people have said - the preamp sections/especially knobs, selectors, buttons of these pieces deteriorate and get noisy and CAN'T be fixed [like the controls on my HK PM665 inegrated amp]. Having said that, they are of great value for their amplifier stage - if you can use them that way [I'm using mine to drive rear surround channels]. Some great sounding amps for not a lot of money! Just ignore the preamp. My two cents worth. For example, buy yourself a used Integra or Citation 7.0 preamp [both $400 now - $3500 new - amazing sound!] and connect to an older multichannel or a number of excellent old 2 channels! The control you get with these preamps allows for individual channel control so no problem with different sound levels. Of course this takes up more room, but you can have champaign sound on a soda budget. |
I'm glad I spotted this thread.Growing up, my prents were all about listening to music. Mostly rock i.e., Led Zep, The Who, Jethro Tull, etc.When I left for the Army in '87 they put the stereo in storage, mainly because they did'nt listen to it much anymore. It was a simple set-up, Marantz 2226 receiver, Pioneer turntable, and RTR tower speakers. My mother, knowing of my audio fetish, calls me yesterday to let me knoe these items have just been pulled from the shadows, and wanted to know if I wanted them before they got thrown in the trash. I'll be getting them this week. |
I bought an old Sansui G9000 on here years ago and sent it to an electronics guy that completely recapped and realigned and cleaned everything and I'll have to say that it sounds absolutely fabulous and it's a beautiful piece also. Something about the pure power,clean sound that really comes through. I'm sorry to say that it's very close to my Cary Tube amps that cost thousands more. |
I'm the original owner of a 1975 SX-1250. All of the things your friend says about the parts are pretty much true. BUT, the receiver CAN be restored by a knowledgeable repair outlet. The original caps are not available but better substitutes are. The sound of a restored SX-1250 is a bit better than a non-restored piece and still possesses the trademark warm and almost limitless power. I am less certain about resale value. The key would be to fine that individual looking for that specific model. -Scott |
I'm in the middle of re-capping a Marantz 2230 receiver right now. It's not hard - just unsolder the old ones and solder in the new ones. This receiver has 70 electrolytics, so it takes a while, but it is fun. Since the new caps are much smaller than the old ones, I was able to double the power supply capacitance and double the output cap values for more bass and punch. Here's a picture with the main filter cap and output caps replaced - the filter cap is a Panasonic THA, 10000uF, 80V, the output caps are Nichicon KG Gold Tune 4700uF, 80V, bypassed with a 1uF Solen polypropylene. Total parts cost is ~$50 for the entire re-cap and I paid $20 for the reciever at a flea market. Outstanding bang for the buck!! Marantz 2230 re-cap |
I have had most mixed experience with old receivers. I have an Advent 100 radio from the 70s that still sounds as it did then. I had a Fischer 500 which needed new caps, but sounded quite good, but I got tired of worrying about the caps and tubes. I had a NAD with corroded jacks. I tried to clean them but they never sounded very good. I donated it to charity. |
The build quality, and component quality of Pioneer, Sansui, marantz, Harman Kardon, & McIntosh was outstanding. My kids all are into vintage hi-fi as am I. Pioneer SX-1250 has about the most impressive receiver amp I have ever heard. It is extremely listenable. My Daughters Sansui 9090 is not only beautiful to look at, it sounds wonderful. The Pioneer seems to have a little more balls, but just a little. My youngest uses a Realistic STA-2000 which was built by Foster/Fostex for Radio Shack. The amp in this thing looks like it could safely drive a 2ohm load. The fit and finish is of higher quality than either the Sansui or the Pioneer. The point being, that these were all bought used, and after years of service by my famiily have never require so much as a light bulb change. And they seem to run 24/7. I am also very impressed with the Pioneers and the Realistics phono sections. They are dead nuts quiet. Your audio buddy needs to get a life. You may prefer something that to you sounds better, but there is nothing wrong the gear from the 70s. I personally run a Citation 17 preamp and Citation 16a amplifier. In thirty plus years I have never had replace or repair anything, nor have I ever felt that the sound of the equipment has deteriorated. My close audio buddies are always impressed with a listening session at my home. |
There's yet another reason to buy an old receiver that no one's mentioned...or maybe I missed it. Beyond getting near-modern performance on the cheap, and beyond the nostalgia factor, there's the notion of lineage. Everything we have today in terms of audio gear has decended from the stuff made in the 70's. In a lot of ways, the old(er) stuff represents the "forefathers" of high end audio. All our modern gear is produced by guys who designed, or grew up on, gear from the 70's. So, why not go out and get one, just as a history lesson? As someone pointed out, we've all probably spent $100 on something far more frivolous. My dad gave me his old Fisher (no idea what model) when I was about 16-17 years old, and I loved it. The volume and balance knobs started cutting out really badly though, and I gave it to Goodwill. Still kicking myself for that one... |
The old stuff sounds very good once it has been gone through and rebuilt. These things are 20 to 50 years old. When someobody is advertising a Dynaco SCA35 for 200 with the description of "original, looks good, works fine, sold as is" you should expect it will require new tubes and components (caps, resistors, wiring) as well as a general cleaning. Expect to put at least 250 into any of the older tube stuff. Good stuff when rebuilt with modern parts. The Pilot receiver for sale right now is a good example of something that would sound good and be useful and it has already been gone through. |
I, too, love the look and feel of the old recievers such as my first Sansui from 1974 but...! I went to a local hi-fi show last winter which had a lot of old gear with about 3-4 systems driven by 25-35 yr old receivers - all of which sounded pretty bad compared to the systems using modern tube amps and speakers. Made me lose any interest whatsoever. |
I have an old Harmon Kardon 730 Receiver. I used to sell audio gear retail in the late 70's to middle 80's. I kept a twin powered HK 730 as it was the last discrete component receiever they made and sounded darn good. I still use it in a bedroom system with some not so great speakers - but when I plug in my vintage Sennheiser HD-414's (with the new large yellow foam pads ;-) that HK730 sings. I saw an HK 730 go for over $100.00 + shipping on Ebay this last week. A lot of newer receivers won't go that high on Ebay. The pots and buttons are a little noisy - but the sound would be hard to match for anywhere near 8 to 10 times the Ebay price with new gear today. I believe there are a lot of vintage bargains out there. Like turntables,vinyl and tubes discrete component amplifiers, solid state and tubes, can be a joy to own. IMHO |
I HAVE A Marantz model 2110 Tuner with Blue Oscilloscope AND MATCHING Vintage Marantz Integrated Amp 1122DC 62w/c near mint DOES ANY KNOW THE REAL VALUE OF THESE ALSO HAVE THE MARANTZ 1090 Amplifier, I THINK THEY ARE COOL WHAT DDO YOU ALL THINK AND HOW MUCH ARE THESE THREE ITEMS WORTH IN DOLLARS ALL WORK FINE |
As I sit here in my company's office building, staring at my 1970s Audio Research D75A, I can understand what those who posted above are talking about. My amp is a 75 WPC tube amp, and I mean 17 tubes and you've got a nice tube amp that performs equal to or above most stuff out there today. And I got it free from a coworker a few years ago, minus the tubes, spent $300 to fix it up and retube it. All parts except the tubes are original (ok maybe 1 small cap replaced due to the lead breaking) including the electolytic caps (none replaced). I figure I have another 10 years before they go. Picture is here: http://abante.lunarpages.com/~arcdb02/DUAL75/DUAL75.html Under Dual 75A. This amp, along with some vintage Snell Type E II speakers (and a CD player and iPod) brings me more happiness and enjoyment than my modern setup consisting of Wilson speakers and BAT/Cary audio separates. I don't think you can go wrong by turning to the interesting past, and you can always find someone to tune and fix your equipment, if you can't tinker yourself. The problem is finding the piece in nice condition in the first place. If you can do that you are good to go. Good luck. |
