Older vs. newer REL subs

I have 3 subs.

So youre running three total subs?

@shahram I got two Rythmik subs. In addition to the REL, I was able to position and adjust them to within +/- 4db between 20 and 400 Hz. Sounds excellent. The Rythmiks' adjustable phase was what made it all possible.

@hilde45 What ended up happening when you got the Rhythmic Sub in?

I am also interested in this subject and how does R-328 compare with a T series.

The R-328 is powered by a 350W class D amplifier but it's an older model (The R series is the equivalent of the newer S series)

T9x is powered by a 300W class AB amplifier

T7x = 200 W class AB amplifier

The class D amplifiers are "faster" because they have a much better damping control than class AB amplifiers.

The price of a second hand R-328 is close to the price of a new T9x

I suspect that the R-328 is a bit faster and better than the T9x (also based on the specs) but is there anyone that listened to both in the same room?

 

I believe everyone is forgetting how important the room treatment is especially when it comes to low frequencies. 

A rel T series can sound much better in a treated room than a rel S series in a regular room.

It doesn't matter if the subwoofer is very fast in a room that has no bass absorption --> You will hear the low frequencies reverberation instead of the actual sound getting from the speaker.  Of course you will also hear the reverberation of the main speakers. 

The dealers usually have treated rooms in which you can hear the differences between S and T series but at home the difference may be minimal and more related to price and placebo effect. 

To make an idea: a subwoofer can sound 2 or 3 times better in a treated room than in a regular room, so save some budget for low frequency absorption too. 

 

I'm torn on what to upgrade with.

One of my R218's broke and I haven't had much luck fixing or finding a 2nd used one.  In my haste I bought two T5x and for 2 channel music and it's pretty good and is satisfying enough.  I compared it to my one working R218 and the R218 definitely hits harder.  Not trying to chase bass for music hence going with the T5x pair (for cost and enough dynamics)

I decide to hook up the R218 for my centre channel after seeing a Youtube on Rel 3D.  WOW!  

One thing I miss is having more HT impact so I'm on the lookout for a pair of S3 SHO (22Hz) which on paper hit lower than the R218 pair (25Hz).  The T5x  can be used for the rear surrounds or in another system.    The new  S/510 (20Hz) is just out of my price range.  The T9x (27Hz) may not be enough.

Without having read the seventy plus responses I'd guess there are less than ten responses that have ever used any other subwoofer then their REL. You already have a REL.

I recall listening to a small pair of Salk Sound Veracity speakers at a show. They demonstrated their bass performance by cutting in a 12" Rythmik subwoofer. Those little speakers did very well on their own.

I managed to get much better texture from a large beautifully built $9K REL Stadium III locating it in the rooms main mode placing it on its side and slaving an optimized low level signal from another subwoofer.
Better than no sub at all is all I'd say about REL. Who rates subs at -6dB?

Forget the stereo. Crawl test and map your room for the two loudest modes. Place your Rythmik in, or close to one, and the REL in the other. Get two pairs of inexpensive long interconnects from Blue Jeans or Monoprice and use the L/R RCA outputs from the Rythmik to your REL. Now go beat your own drum.

I may go with REL yet. There’s pretty much a drumbeat for REL and I can understand why. I have a REL and it’s very musical and the company’s been extraordinary to work with, in terms of communication and support.

That said, I’m trying out a couple of Rythmiks. I placed an order yesterday, to be fulfilled (hopefully) in June. I have a trial for those. I have consistently found value in products that are not from very large companies with a lot of marketing, advertising, and dealer overhead. Quicksilver, Fritz, Salk, MHDT have all provided amazing value. That said, REL has the R&D and customer testimony (and economy of scale) to meet a very high quality metric, so I don’t discount their ability to hit the mark, too. Just a different path.

But for now I want to try Rythmik because I have spent a lot of time trying to integrate my REL -- especially dealing with room gain in the 70-80 hz spectrum. The lack of control I have over the REL is making this impossible. I need more control on the unit. But I don't want to spend $5000 a sub. (Or near that.)

Consider what is available in the Reference Rels --

Parametic EQ to (as the REL manual states) "cure certain room acoustics challenges"
The manual continues,

"Application: Most rooms produce room gain--higher output--in the upper bass region, typically in the 70-80Hz region. Generally speaking, most rooms have reduced gain in the low bass regions, somewhere in the mid-20’s to mid-30’s area. For this reason, we provide you the ability to produce noteworthy improvements in both trouble regions by gently cutting the higher bass frequencies and gently boosting the lower region.
To share our own experiences; while developing this filter set in our own studios, we found +2 dB at 25Hz and -2 dB at 43Hz (crossover frequency was set to 34Hz) produced evenness of output and the overall result was found to be much more consistent across the entire bass range. More impressive in long term listening were improvements in clarity extending all the way up into the upper midrange. This is clearly the result of a slight reduction in mid bass overhang that the 43Hz cut function provided."

The ability to deal with room gain at a price point I’m capable of is why I’m trying Rythmik, first, this time around.

I’ve got about a months experience with the new t/7x. It is an incredible upgrade over the i/series. They are extremely fast, play fast and loud (if needed). Took my two channel office system to another dimension. It is definitely a permanent fixture in my setup. Even REL states the new 7x is the sweet spot sub outside of their reference line. Pull the trigger; you’ll be glad you did. 

@jjss49  Absolutely right. There's a tendency in discussions to set up an "either/or" when in fact the better answer is "both/and." 

as i see it, the last word in pairing subs to main speakers should be from the maker of the mains - if you have bought into the mains 100% then follow his advice - you will hear what he intends for you to hear

that said, rel has been around a long long time, with many many very satisfied customers... they are true experts and specialists in the field and have not strayed from their central mission, it is hard to imagine their subs, past or present, to be lacking the controls to properly integrate into systems

done right, would imagine either path leads to excellent results

@missioncoonery  I love my current REL. But I have less experience and knowledge than others and the issue of integrating two subs is not just a "go and listen proposition" for me. There's more to it than that, for me. Still, I'm glad you can wrap up the issue so easily for yourself! Congrats on having such confidence in your subs. I hope to get there, myself.

IMO,the discussion of subwoofers in 2 channel audio begins and ends with Rel. Go listen for yourself,its a no brainer

@b_limo Lol! Well, I'm not sure I need to invest in fancy cabinets for a sub, especially since that will increase the weight -- and the wait! And also, if I re-sell, best not to have chosen wood that's too particular. 

By the way, on the servo issue, here's Mcgowan: https://youtu.be/Vk3ti1nTtZ8?t=171

Dude, if you can get a pair of Salks there should be no question.  Everything Jim said was spot on.

Im still holding true to what I said about a pair of T9x’s blowing your socks off, but my personal choice would be Salk (Rythmik)  subs.

...you sure are making it hard keeping up with “The Joneses” by the way, and I Love It!  
Ugh, off to look at Subs and talk to the tooth fairy about inflation... molars are the most valuable / easily replaced correct?

Had a nice exchange with my speaker maker, Jim Salk. Salk had not heard the RELs and he has nothing negative to say about them. He commented to me about the differences he saw between REL at the T9x level and the Rythmik 12SE. 

The REL T9 lacks phase control other than 0/180. What he likes about more adjustable phase control is that it helps dial in the phase correctly. As he put it, "If the subwoofer driver is not in the exact same plane as the woofers in the main speakers, you must set the phase such that the two are in phase with one another over the crossover region. If not, you may have nulls in the overall output." I'd only add that give one's rooms nodal regions, one might not *want* to put the woofers on the "exact same plane" as the mains. After all the measuring I did, I'd hate to have to do that with my subs.

He also noted that the REL subs I was looking at (not the more expensive RELS) use A/B amplifiers but better subs are now using digital Class D amplifiers (Hypex's Ncore amps or Purifi, etc.) He likes these amps because they run cooler and have a lot of power for the size while doing a good job of controlling the woofers. Finally, he likes subs with direct servo control. As he explained it, on a sub's two voice coils, one drives the woofer cone while the other is fed back to the plate amp’s servo circuitry. "The servo circuit monitors in the input and calculates exactly where the cone needs to be to produce the signal at the input. Using the second voice coil, it determines exactly where the cone is. If it is not in the position is needs to be in, the gain is automatically increased or decreased as necessary. All of this happens in real time. So you end up with very accurate response that is very musical as well." Finally, he likes that in the direct servo system [for the models I am comparing] the sub plays deeper. You can easily get flat response down to 20Hz with a 12” sub."

People love REL's and whether these technical differences make a difference is up to everyone's ears. But for the same price as the T9/x, it seems the Rythmik is quite amenable to careful adjustments. Until I'm in a room where I can get a swarm, I have the chance to get a sub which is easier to blend with my mains; I have technical know how about use REW along with the added technologies on the Rythmik to dial it in. And a 45 day window for return. It's very tempting.

I agree with missioncoonery. Phase on a sub if using below 35Hz. doesn't do anything from what I can tell. Just add more subs, that’s a much better idea.

"One thing that keeps me thinking about going somewhere else than REL is the adjustable phase in other subs, such as Rythmik."...........think again!

@amg -- Thanks for the clarification. I've now heard from two REL dealers that explained why the S series was better but also from another user who's said that a person at REL said that either the 9 or the S would be good.
I think it's typically a no lose situation for a dealer to recommend something higher up the line. They make money and their custoers avoid cognitive dissonance by assuming they're hearing a difference they never really got a chance to test methodically, over time. So, the marketing literature which initially seems like blather can become an important buttress for the customer *after* purchase. 

One thing that keeps me thinking about going somewhere else than REL is the adjustable phase in other subs, such as Rythmik.

I should not have stated “current” in the models as they have obviously changed since I bought my pair. 

It goes to show, if you are going to comment, get it right or there will be an army ready to shoot you down, and not in a nice way either….

@hilde45 I wasn’t trying to put my spin on the S series and T series uses. When I bought mine from the REL distributor here in Aus, I asked the same question and got the answer I put to you. It would seem that I was misled. So apologies to you, all commentators and to REL.
I still like my S/3s I bought 8 years ago.

AG🇦🇺

https://rel.net/blog/2019-10-16/principles-of-sound/old-vs-new/

trust folks who care about this subject has seen this ^^^^

of course the answer is predictable, coming from rel marketers :)

grist for the mill, so to speak

i myself cannot be more happy with my two pair of older q150e’s and storm iii’s when needed, to augment proacs quad esl’s spendors

Thanks, all. Lots of possibilities. Gonna sleep on it!

A matching pair of the newer version REL T/9X, one per channel, would be plenty with your 2-way/6.5" Salk monitor speakers and 60wpc tube amps. Also prefer the forward firing woofer w/bottom firing passive design of the 9x.

Hello,
I would get the matching older sub for right now. Everyone says get two matching subs. If you buy the matching sub to your current sub you will have a pair. This should make them both more valuable. I have a pair of the T9’s. I love them. The i or x models are front firing and the older version like mine are down firing with a passive front woofer. I agree if you are buying new subs get the S series for music. I use a home theater pass through on my system. I like that the Rel subs have Speakon and RCA for music and LFE RCA for the movies all separately adjustable. They go down to 28hz so I might add a KEF KF92 sub just for the theater side to go down to 11hz. We will see. Grab the matching sub to yours for now. Wait for a deal on the new REL stuff. 

@missioncoonery -- I hope you can shed some light on what aspects of music improved when you moved up from REL's T to S line? My room is 20 x 15, when I called REL customer service they said T9i will be good enough (I already own one) for my room and listening preferences. But a lot of people have told me that there is a distinct advantage when moving up the line regardless of room size. Is it about more bass or an increase in punch and texture or both? TIA.

@missioncoonery My mistake! My apologies. It was not you. I will delete my post!

By the way, I'm in discussions about the S series, now. Thanks for your reports about your experience.

When did I say the T series,was for home theater....you have me confused. Im the guy that went from T series to S series in the past 30 days trying to give you first hand advise ....

@noromance,

I agree. R8 was under speced and sticking it inside a cabinet with no air flow ensured its demise. Most failures of the ST series were solely because of R8.  

3 times...boy thats a lot,lmao....so your point is what? That the new S series is also fantastic at home theater?..its obvious your not listening or understanding,so yea this is a waste of time!

Below it was said that the T series from REL was aimed at home theater.

Watch this video on the S 510 and notice how often he mentions "home theater."

https://youtu.be/tN6IraLOjMg

@nmmusicman My Strata failed due to R8 failure. Poor design and there should have been a class action!

@arafig 

So the question now is whether I sell the white T9i and buy a pair of black T9is, or buy a single S/510 for now, and buy a second one next year.

Buy a pair of black T9s and keep the white one. #swarm

Thanks for the recent comments. It's good to know when one is moving towards overkill in their room. So that could be one reason one would not spend an extra $1,000 for the S series. If there was a good reason to do it and I wanted to spend that money then I would do it. (If anyone would like to pay for my dental work I'd be happy to upgrade even further!

 I can see that in this thread there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not the S series really makes enough of a difference in the room that I have.

Some people believe that buying something of even slightly better quality is always the thing to do. But opportunity costs are real and so it's easy to spend someone else's money. That said if I could get the S series for two grand each and I had a very good acoustical reason to do it, I would do it.

@arafiq 
The KEFs are now gone, and the white sub doesn't go with the aesthetics of my room anymore. So the question now is whether I sell the white T9i and buy a pair of black T9is, or buy a single S/510 for now, and buy a second one next year.

If you end of selling the white T9i....please let me know.

The Ti or Tx series are mot aimed at home theater use.  They do well with that application but they are even better with music. They are the fastest, most responsive subs I’ve heard, by far. They start and stop on a dime.

The S3 SHO was a great sub and a slight upgrade from the T9i but really not worth it Hilde.  A pair of T9i’s or the T9x will already be overkill for you.  Room placement, room acoustics and setup will play a bigger role is good bass response than just randomly plopping down two S3’s or S5’s.

I sold my T9i to a friend and ghat single sub, in his room, has better bass response than any home system I’ve ever heard, RMAF included. Its all about the room, placement and setup once you get to a level like a T9i.  
Heres an analogy.  A trained driver in a 911 can do faster laps than a novice in F1 car.  
On a side note, I picked up my T9i basically brand new (open box) at magnolia for $750 and a S3 SHO (floor model, no box, no grill, no cables, for $1,000).  If I could score a couple of S3 SHO’s for under $3k for the pair I’d look at those as well.  
But anyway you go, T9i, T9X, S3 SHO... a pair will be more than enough and will probably impress the heck out of you.  You can’t go wrong with any of those...

Hilde45...its not for me to do your homework but ive bought 2 S510 for 2 grand  each delivered from 2 different Rel dealers within the past month, most will discount $250.00 before you even say hello.So with the free shipping they were actually less than 2 grand a pop...if your willing to spend 1500 on a T series sub why wouldn't you go the extra and get a S series (thats very close to their reference level as opposed to their entry line)?

My apologies to everyone, it is R8 that is the resistor that is the known failure point on older REL’s. 

A Goodwin's High End sales guy recently told me he thought the series RELs I own were excellent...but then, what does he know? I haven't compared them to new ones of course, but if they explode I just might.

@arafiq Great questions! Thanks. And I'm glad to know the newer are beating out the older. I'm leaning heavily to the T/9 series. The other tempting thing for me is the value of a Rythmik sub, which people seem to love and it gives more control over integration, which could be important. Just love how those RELs look. Um, um.

The best upgrade one can do for an older ST series REL is to replace the rail caps with Mundorf caps and double up the resistance wattage capacity on R7 resistor which is a known failure point on older REL's.

I'm following this thread with a lot of interest. I have a T9i sub and have been contemplating whether to get another T9i (used) or save more to move up the line. The problem is that I bought the T9 in white to match the KEF LS50s which were also white. The KEFs are now gone, and the white sub doesn't go with the aesthetics of my room anymore. So the question now is whether I sell the white T9i and buy a pair of black T9is, or buy a single S/510 for now, and buy a second one next year.

I have read many posts about the S line being better, but don't quite understand how specifically. I called REL customer service and they feel that a pair of T9is are more than sufficient for my needs (not a bass head, no EDM or hard rock/metal for me). But I do wonder what will I be giving up by not getting into the S line? Hopefully, someone who has actually moved from T to S will chime in soon.

BTW, one thing I can tell you is that the T series is absolutely better than the older REL subs. I had the REL Storm III about 5-6 years ago, albeit not in the same room or even the same equipment/speakers. While it had adequate bass and pressurized the room nicely, I yearned for the bass to have more punch and texture. The T9i definitely delivers on this aspect. The bass is more focused and 'well put together' if you will. You definitely feel the improvement when listening to classic rock for example.

OP - sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread. If this sounds like too far removed from the topic at hand, I can start a new thread :)

@wolf_garcia,

The only issue I've had with my REL subs is the surround coming loose from the frame on my G2 but some heat/pressure reattached it with no issues. Of course, this driver really has some extreme excursions when played aggressively as I'm known to do from time to time!

Again, my REL subs have been in fairly constant use and haven't rattled apart at all...I've taken them apart and would notice anything rattling. 

@missioncoonery Where is the S510 available for $2k each?

As I price it out, I paid $1k for my present sub, used. I can probably get $600 or so for trade in with the folks nearby who trade and sell gear; if I get two $1500 T/9 subs with them, it totals $2300 rather than $5k. That saves $2700. Not chump change for people who work. If they’re all good subs and my system is not a $30k+ system, that sounds like a fit. More seems like overkill, though I know that’s the name of the game in this hobby for many.

But let’s take your $2k price as something really available (I assume that you’ve got a link for me on that). Let’s also assume that there is no trade in involved. So, essentially what you’re asserting is that someone who would prefer not to spend $1k or a third more is "stoopid" and that this discussion is "wasting everyone’s time here"?

I laid out my parameters and preferences in the OP and my posts, so I’ll leave it to others to decide if I’m wasting their time. Doesn’t seem like it, based on the helpful posts. Of course if you feel your time is being wasted, you’ve got options.

"I'm not in the market to buy two $2500 subs to replace a single older $2k sub; I would entertain two newer $1500 subs, however" .......you can buy the S510 for 2 grand brand new delivered...if you would buy (2)1500.00 subs and not entertain (2)2000 subs which are much much better your wasting everyone's time here with this post as thats just stooopid

@wolf_garcia wolf_garcia
"...The bad news is that REL won’t service them. If one dies I would try to find somebody to fix it,..."

Good point to bring up for others to see.  This is the problem with buying older -2 prior generation used subs, and when the factory no longer stocks the replacement boards, amps, parts, drivers any more. It becomes a best effort self-fix situation.   Helped many friends rip out stock amps and drivers to replace with generic Dayton 250/500 amps and other drivers to keep them going. Got two DA 500s sitting her right now in fact.    So what's left, a cabinet? Rather build a new Rythmik or Dayton kit sub with a good driver than buy a 5+ year old factory sub that you can't get parts for any more because they've moved on to different designs. Just something else to be aware of when buying used vs. new subs.  And they DO rattle themselves apart after 5 years, and less so when when used more sparingly.  They want you to buy the new model when it happens, fwiw.