Perlisten D212 Subs (2) in the house.


Lots of interest in subwoofers these days so I decided to take the plunge.  My listening room is large 17’W x 32”D x 16’ vaulted ceilings with an open back wall into other rooms.  Current speakers Wilson Alexia 1, Classe Delta Mono’s, and VAC Signature 11a SE.  Originally was going to buy REL G1 mark 2 but decided to take a chance on the Perlisten as its newer tech and specs looked very good.  At first I thought speaker level connection was the way to go and it may be with a tube power amp rig.  The argument of passing through the “color” of your amp kinda made sense.  But I run very neutral solid state power amps and any power “amp” color still goes though the sub’s power amps which adds its own sound thus that argument made less sense to me and my system. I’m also lucky that my pre has two XLR outs for bi-amping. I am still breaking in these subs so I have decided to not try a detailed matching to my floor standers yet.  I will say this.  They are currently set at 80htz low pass with no other DSP adjustment.  The SQ is great!  They have a very articulate and fast bottom end that amazingly “pairs” well with my Wilsons with no tweaking. The soundstage has increased and there is a better foundation to the music.  Will provide further assessments after break-in.

128x128skinzy

Skinzy

I am looking at a similar setup with my AlexxV, any feedback you can share? Mainly interested in musicality with the push-pull design. Also considering 2x215 or 2xD15 or D12.

Thanks in advance

Based on the measurements they look like very nice subs. I have window shopped them a few times but the price is hard to swallow.

 

Are you running your wilson full range then? Probably would be better high-passed. wilson make a pretty good sub controller that would allow you to highpass the speakers.  
 

Anyway I will be interested to hear more about them as you get used to them. 

@velcro22 I have been very pleased with the D212 subs paired with my Wilson Alexia.  Have them set a 45 HZ Low Pass Filter.  My Alexx V's arrive tomorrow.  After break-in I will let you know how the subs sound.  Suspect I will be lowing the Low Pass?

@skinzy  For subwoofers of this caliber, you could probably research some higher end bass management solution and take the subs higher up between 150 to 200 hz. If you have them both on the front stage near the Wilsons and depending on your room, localization may not be an issue. I wouldn't continue to run the Wilsons full range and shut these subs off at 45 hz (feels like a crime, 😉 ).

Just installed the Alexx V's and temporarily took out the subs. The bass is wonderfully detailed and provides plenty of low end energy in my room.  Wondering if I even need the subs?  May move them into the HT to replace my M&K 350 subs that are getting long on the tooth.  Any opinions would be appreciated.

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@skinzy : you already have the subwoofers. So try your new speakers with and without subwoofers. What’s your question? Obviously some work is needed with integrating the subwoofers. So here is that. Are you willing to spend a few hours of your time?

@thyname Obvious first step. Just wondering how a sub that goes down to 15Hz at best will interact with the floor stander that goes to 20 Hz. My room acoustics are good with little to no standing wave problems.

As to appropriate crossover frequency found the below:

"For music listening, using full-range Wilson Audio loudspeakers, the best option is to select the lowest possible subwoofer crossover frequency to start with (30Hz-40Hz). Listen to the results and adjust depending on if the LF sounds accentuated/elevated/ pronounced or lean/thin. While room acoustics play a big role in this calibration, the subwoofer crossover point is usually between 32Hz and 45Hz with an 18dB per octave roll-off while leaving the main loudspeakers functioning with no low frequency cutoff." From Wilson site

So? Did you try? With and without subwoofers. And I really hope you know: this is not just about “going down to X HZ”. You still have the subwoofers?

@thyname Yes and no go.  The bass on the Allexx V is so low, articulate, and fast that I felt the D212 muddled things up.  They are now in my HT system.  Replaced my pair of M&K 350's that were 20 years old.

WOW! Perlisten subs command a lot of cash. I hope their performance is up to the task against the big boys. 10k is a lot of money for subwoofer without any history. REL’s are actually cheaper and known to be the best.

Just unpacked my D12’s and love the look, but very different then my JL E112’s, sound and setting wise. I haven’t had time to listen and tweek, but my Focal Sopra 3’s and CR-1 cross over truly go down to 31Hz, and I kinda was a little underwhelmed with the 45Hz low pass with, volume 10.5, trim 1.5, and 24db slope via XLR from the CR-1. I’m high passing my mains at 32Hz, but feel like these have less presents and punch them my JL’s at a similar frequency crossover low pass.

A lot of people pitch Perlisten as a better JL audio, but I feel like at least what I’m hearing is a very different subwoofer sound, maybe closer to a Rell Sound (speed and clarity wise), but these are supposed to be home theatre juggernauts too.

Still way to early to have a clue what I’m hearing.

So, you basically spent more than 10.000$ on something you didn't need and is now relegated to second system duty?

Wow, I wish I had your life! 

Please don't take it bad, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything ;-) enjoy!

@rolox What was the purpose of your comment? Was it to provide important insight into a product or to congratulate someone on a new purchase? Why would you insult people and then say enjoy. Do you feel better when you do this? 

@ja_kub_sz. When I upgraded my speakers and no longer needed them in my 2 channel audio system I put them in my Home Theatre system.  Mine are the D212's so are not comparable but I love them in this application. They replaced my M&K 350's.  As you say the bass is faster and more articulate.  Not just a muddled boom that so many subs are.  I might suggest adjusting your volume, otherwise your adjustments seem good.

Skinzy, I tend to think subs without a highpass are not worth the time as it never sounds quite right. Wilson audio makes a pretty good sub controller for around $5k that would allow for the integration. Might not be worth it to you though if you are moving away from the subs.
 

jab_kib_sz

i am curious if you have tried a higher crossover point. I found 60hz to be where most of these subs come into their sweet spot. Where they slam without sounding like “subs”. I currently use 2 JL E112 and have pretty munched highpassed them all at 60hz. My speakers (JBL 4367) also go down to the mid 30s and a 40-45hz crossover is fine but nothing special. At 60hz the system has noticeably more dynamic low bass. Once I get to 80hz crossover I feel like my system loses some bass texture. 
 

with your speakers so close to the wall they probably do kick pretty hard down low. When I had my Revel 228be (similar size to the Sopra) I had them 5’ off the wall the a high crossover of 60hz was needed to get a flat response in room. 

@skinzy and @james633  sadly day two not off to a good start. One sub has a "Error 03-00" message that I can't clear and power on/off unplugging etc. hasn't fixed it either. Zero clue? So sent an email to Perlisten (we'll see). If anyone has a idea of encountered this please chime in. Not having good luck with subs, one of my JL E112's lost it's high pass filter switch and I haven't had subs in my systems for about 4-5 months.

As for crossover setting and high pass settings I've listen at great lengths and my CR-1 has a bypass for both speakers and sub so you can on/off to A/B compare and honestly the Sopra is a down firing speaker and yeah they're close to the wall, my room is 9' ceilings, 16' X 45' (WxD) essentially, but has some out croppings that widen out behind me in this picture.

With my Sopras I exhaustedly A/B tested the high pass cut off point of my speakers and I could here truncation in very fast, layered and dynamic music (Andrew Bayer's Opening Act is my best example) around 33-35hz point, however I did have the crossover set on the E112's at 60hz (I just took a look at my other system) so you could very well be right as far as moving that up ward. But I need to dB meter my listening cause on the Perlisten I was doing relatively lower volume listening and I would crank my crossover via the Perlisten app to 160hz and volume 12 and I wasn't overwhelmed by overly boomey and bloated bass with the D12's. Again I only had one day of listening and now the Error code.

@ja_kub_sz I have never encountered an error message on my subs that have now been in service for over a year.  I have talked with Perlisten in the past and they are responsive and helpful.  As to a high pass on a full range floor stander I understand the issues and many approaches. If I had bookshelf speakers that makes a great deal of sense.  However with full range if you high pass at 60hz you're probably eliminating much of your mains low bass woofer function.  

Ja_kub_sz,

 

Your system looks nice. Sorry to hear about your sub issues. JL’s electronics in their E-subs are pretty much trash. I have had both mine fixed twice so I am effectively on my 5th and 6th sub from them. They fixed them under warranty and then once out of warranty it was $500 for a full rebuild. They changed out everything (including the driver) in my original box. If you ever want to fix the JL there is a repair program.

 

The internal highpass on the E112 works well but adds a lot of hiss to the system (my speakers are 93db eff) and I need to get an external crossover sooner than later.

I like reading about the sub comparisons so please update the thread when you make a decision. I plan to switch out my JLs. I am leaning toward JTR RS1 or the JBLs SUB18s that match my speakers (pricey and don’t go that low). I have read a direct comparison of the RS1 to the E112 where the RS1 was more textured for music. They are huge and ugly but I am setup as a combo music/theater room so looks matter less. I have also considered the Perlistens but the price gives me a moment of pause, so they need to be really good at their asking price.

Music tastes might play a part in crossover point. I have also played with my crossover point for years and I can mirror your opinion. The 4367 has great textured bass but lacks the power under 40hz for that dynamic thump. At 40hz crossover for me I a near perfect blend but moving up to 60hz I gain a ton of dynamics and slam for modern music. I might lose a touch of texture at 60hz but it could be debated. Above 60hz the sub can be clearly heard with its damped bass. If you listen mostly to “audiophile” music I could see enjoying a 40hz crossover mor than 60hz  

Anyway good discussion, there seems to be very few people who buy and compare different subs for music. I for one think it matters a lot. Sadly high efficiency large driver subs might be a better choice for music than some of these very inefficient subs on the market.

@skinzy

I 100% agree that high pass filtering mains at 60hz would be too excessive and lose some of the dynamic response. I have frequently hit the on/off / bypass button and can audibly hear bass loss in my Sopras at roughly 33 to 35hz. So I completely agree with you. Two side points being that the E112 crossover feature is an all or nothing high/low pass. Meaning you select a frequency response cut off that truncates your mains and that is the fixed Hz low pass for your subwoofers. You cannot alter the two, which is why I got the CR-1. Your choices are either running your mains full range and low pass filtering your subwoofers, or whatever your high pass cutoff is will also be your low pass for your subs. I am of the opinion that my mains should be high passed at roughly 31-33hz, and then again agree with @james633 ​​​​​that my subwoofer low pass will ultimately be somewhere between 60 to 80hz. However the Perlisten have definitely just a different sound and more there setting for volume and low pass filtering are just vastly different then the JL I'm used to. It's like one preamp that you run the volume at 50% max and yet a different brand you'd be deaf at anything higher then 30% volume max. The Perlisten need to be volumed 80-100% (high then most subs I've had) and filterd 60-80hz for floor standers (near 30hz speakers). range)

@james633 I do agree with you completely along the lines of the audible tweeter hiss/hum when using the high pass / low pass cutoff of the E112. It really bothered me, and I’m one of those people that has to have an absolute zero noise floor when my ear is up to the tweeter. I attribute that to my own neuroticism, but even with slight hiss it’s an audible from the seated listening position. Regardless I did use two humEx in order to minimize that and in my current setup with my system I have zero hiss ear and tweeter. I did have dedicated audio grad 20amp outlets installed and since then have all Shunyata cables and Puritan 156 power conditioning. I could only imagine what a higher efficiency speaker would do given the similar issues I had with 91db efficient speakers. I’ve grown spoiled with my Technics SU-R1000 and it’s absolutely black hole of a background as far as noise floor goes. It truly is a special amplifier for that reason alone, let alone others.

As for subwoofers I presently have nine, I say that partly in shame. Covering six different brands. They all do have a unique sound, not like speakers though (bigger sound signatures absolutely).

​I​ find the aesthetics of subwoofers to be ubiquitous which allows me to try so many, because I’m agnostic to how they look for the most part. But speakers that’s a different story. I have to absolutely be wholeheartedly in love with how the speakers looks before I even would consider buying them. Just because they’re such a physical presence in the room. This does kind of hamstring me though on what speakers ill buy... it is what it is.

I would honestly have the Focal Utopia Maestro’s instead of my Sopra No. 3’s (Focal are you listening?), however I really dislike their absence of the glass tops and bottoms. Seriously for how nice the dark finished beveled glass is on the Sopras, and the covering of nearly all exposed hardwear around the speakers. I just can bring myself to buy the Maestro because of how comparably unattractive the base, plain painted tops and exposed hardware is on the Utopia line (which I love). The Utopia line definitely needs to be updated to the standards of the Sopra as far as esthetics goes.

Here are my current subs.

Perlisten D12’s (main system)
JL E112’s (physical media system)
SVS Mico’s (Family TV/Music Room)
SVS SB-300 (Garage Work Shop)
Kef KUBE 12’s (Work Office)

I did try the Kef KC62 and KF92 subs also.

Ja_kub_sz

 

thanks for the feed back. We are more or less on the exact same page.
 

The Sopra does looks awesome and sounds good too. The JBL 4367 is my ugliest speaker ever lol… but I think they will be keepers. 
 

Good to know the CR-1 is silent, I have read the manual and I am familiar with how it works. I will probably go that roughy in the spring when I switch out to a new subwoofer system. I have looked at digital systems but kind of like the old school knobs of the CR-1. I tire of diving into a computer everything I want to change something. The E112 hiss was not to bad on some of my old speakers but is crazy loud on the horns. Most people would hate it, I have learned to ignore it for now. 
 

the only other thing I do I don’t hear much about on here regarding subs, is I move my main speakers depending on the crossover frequency I choose. I find the crossover point and slop effects the room gain a good bit. Roughly placing the speakers at 1/4th the distance of the frequent wave length of the crossover seems to aid in the blending. Not sure that is easy to follow in writing but simple enough in practice with a frequent length chart and a measurement mic. The phase distance relationship is also at play. Subs are a pain but worth the effort to me. 
 

Anyway as you play with the Perlistens more let us know what you think of them. 

@james633 Don't knock the JBL's (kidding) I have the L100 75's for my physical media system paired with the E112's. I will never let those speakers go. Also have 4309's for our family room and love them also. Huge JBL fan, honestly my speaker crushes have been with JBL and Focal, but other always peaking my interests from time to time.

And my biggest revelation was with my office where I have the subs to the right and left of me halfway into the room (12'x12' room) the phase adjustment made worlds of difference and that "in to the room right and left placement" for subwoofers I'm sold on. Hope to build a dedicated listening room and move my main system there and have more liberty with speaker and subwoofer placement.

Ja_kub_sz

 

Nice looking setups for sure. I have never tried side placement of subs due to just having limited runs of wire. Maybe once I have the CR-1 I will move them around more as longer runs of balanced cables are more common than RCAs. 

@skinzy 

Thanks for posting.  I have Vimberg Mino D and was interested in “articulate” subwoofers to extend the bottom end and to support the rest of the lower audio band. Wilson and Magico subs were out of budget. JL Audio I was concerned with long term reliability from some (old?) reports.  The dual woofers setup to lower distortions in the D212 seems like a great idea.  

I also have the Perlisten D12s. It has evolved into a very nice sub.

Initially it needed lots of break in as I couldn’t get enough gain out of it. But now is performing well. That driver when new is really tight and seemed quite closed in. It wouldn’t keep up with the Altec 604 due to the high efficiency of the speaker.
 

With the D12s hooked to the preamp, the Altec would be fairly loud at 9:00 on volume, but the Perlisten sub even set to the highest gain was not loud enough.  

Over time the sub seemed to loosen up and I have been able to turn the gain down to 9.5 or 10 (out of 12)

@rwbadley absolutely agree... I have volume set to 10.5. Perlisten did reach out and want me to software down-date to 1.23, but it’s looking to me like a bad amp module in one subwoofer.

@kennyc so now having many subs, both JL and Perlisten and sadly both my JL and Perlisten now have gone bad on me (one sub in each pair)... My thoughts thus far.

Build quality JL

Woofer quality Perlisten

Bass presence and SPL force JL

Bass speed and articulation Perlisten

Features and functions Tie

Customer Service Perlisten

Reliability JL (from my own personal experience)

So essentially a tie, however I would venture to make the case that for me I’d go JL F-12 if I could do it all over again at this juncture. Maybe I’ll change my mind given more time and once both D12's are subs are up and working. But I'm happy to have yet another sub sound in my collection (future speaker pairing and such).

Overall I’m still of the opinion that these are very different subwoofers.

I would liken SVS to JL, and Perlisten more so to REL. Again not that any of these are the same but in a sense of which sound is closer to which.