Porsche
Would you be surprised to learn Porsche made the world’s first full hybrid car? Would you be surprised to learn this was more than 120 years ago?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG-NnmcIfLE Recreated for the 2011 Geneva Auto Show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz99c0K29es |
Well, that was fun! Let's electrify things a bit... Zelectric 1968 Porsche 912 | Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube |
@millercarbon - you have your purists and then you have your track junkies and all their exhausts, suspension and engine mods. The thing is, everyone is interested in all of the models and years (except SUVs) and appreciates the differences and evolution, especially of the 911. Everyone loves to give advice and help - nobody denigrates anyone’s ride, even an old beater 924. People love to track them. I think audiophila is an OCD pursuit - always looking for the holy grail. Porsches and cars in general are a much bigger hobby and many people look at them as investments as evidenced by the televised car auctions. Nobody looks to have their audio equipment act as a financial investment, and if they do, they will be disappointed. In today’s environment, most people only care about convenience, new iPhones get all the attention, and the only people picking up the audio hobby seem to be the hipsters getting into turntables. Let’s hope they start making a little cash and become more committed and interested in pursuing audio nirvana. Also, we should emphasize it does not have to cost a ton of $$ to get started and it can be a simple process. We don’t have to start talking with them about MC cartridges, tonearms, isolation/suspension, tubes, etc. The latest discussion about record cleaning machines is a prime example of how you can go nuts with the stuff. Taking an hour to clean a record as shown in a video that was posted by someone showing the Degritter sent me running in the other direction and I have been pursuing audio nirvana for over 40 years. The guy is off the deep end…. |
sokogear- I have been out of PCA a long time now but was region president and attended all kinds of events for years, everything from social dinners and concours to autocross, driver ed and tech sessions. One of the things that hit me, no matter what type of event it was roughly 20% were first-timers. They just heard about PCA and this was their first event. Another roughly 20% were long-timers like yourself. These people all know each other and have their certain events they like and have been doing for decades. The roughly 60% in the middle, might be their second event, might be around a few years, or longer, they have made a few friends and come when they can. That 20% of first-timers, I don’t know what it is today but it was very consistent for years at all events. When you are talking 100 cars at autocross, to think 20 are new, probably another 20 on top of that are recent, that is significant. There is a lesson here for audiophiles. When those first time people show up at PCA they invariably find no one cares what car they drive. No one cares if they are into track or autocross, tours or dinners or concours. In all my years across PCA I never once heard anyone say it was a waste to tweak or modify. You can drive your gleaming factory original concours perfect 356 to the track and you and your car will get just as much attention and respect as the guy who just set track record in his highly modified paint chipped and bug splattered track car. Maybe more. We get these why is high end audio dying topics from time to time. Maybe if we were more like PCA then we would be growing like Porsche? |
I was just at a local PCA Wash 'n Shine event on Tuesday night at a nice local winery and we had a huge turnout. Bigger than I can ever remember for this event, and it wasn't even in a good Spring month where we can get lots of daylight - couldn't see the cars after about 7:45. (We had to do it later in the year because of Covid). I've been in the club for 18 years and I am amazed at how many newbies keep showing up. That's what is causing the prices to rise. Simple supply and demand..... And by the way, they are ALL going up (except for maybe new ones purchased in the last 3-4 years that aren't special cars like GT4s, Boxster Spyders, GT3s, etc). |
Wow, a Porsche and audio thread. I'd be happy to throw in two experiences. The first was a 1986 Carrera that I'd had for almost eight years. It had a lousy head unit and already had aftermarket Sony speakers. A simple swap to a new Pioneer head unit allowed the occasional CD and made it to the "good enough" threshold. Most of the time was spent listening to the motor, anyway. Occasionally one might like to hear Crystal Method, High Roller at unhealthy volume, and use the motor as accompaniment. Next would be a 2004 Anniversary, with the unjustifiably maligned headlights of that generation. It had a Bose with subwoofer, and a nav system as part of its original package options. It did not satisfy. Kenwood happened to make a 996 double DIN model, so why not?. That plus a five channel Alpine amp in the place of the failing multi disc changer, again with no speaker swaps, and now we've reached well into the 21st century. Nav, backing camera, and volume with clarity and control. Sometimes the windows are up, the rpms are down, and the music now more than just good enough. Enjoy! |
Every 911 is an exceptional automobile. Every once in a while however Porsche hits an absolute home run. Their first one was the 911SC. While all the subsequent 911 variants are faster, none had that perfect balance of actual measured performance with perceived performance feel. The 993 is a much faster car. It is also heavier and as a result has to be driven a whole lot faster and yet still not give you the feeling you get driving a good SC. The next one to nail it was the 997. The best of the 997 coming towards the end, the 997.2 GTS and C4S. The 997 was I think the first 911 to use PASM. The first one I drove had PASM and it was incredible! I will never forget accelerating around a curve. Normally the faster you go the more you need to steer to maintain the same line due to tire squirm and suspension changes. With PASM it was exhilirating to feel the car accelerate as if on rails with virtually no additional steering input! Marvelous! The 997 was also when Porsche finally got awd down. Before this their awd always gave the feeling of something mechanical going on. Not that it didn’t work incredibly well. The Turbo I drove was impressive. It was just the feeling of clutches and stuff working that was a bit off-putting. The 997.2 C4S however was darn near perfect! I drove one back to back with a 997 GTS and was surprised to find the C4S had just as good steering feel and car balance as the GTS! Frankly, in terms of balance and handling, the ability to push hard and not feel like pushing hard, the 997.2 C4S was quite a bit better than the GTS! Your Targa is basically a C4S. Heavier, not as much body stiffness, but a far cry from the "flexible flyer" of air-cooled Targa days. It was a lot of work to find, there are never a lot of Targas around. So give yourself a big pat on the back for finding yours. Not only is it a great car, but now going nowhere but up in value. As I’m sure you already know! |
Love seeing anything featuring the 997.2 series. 7 years ago I needed a “new” car to replaced a blown engine seal Mazda RX8. I test drove some pre owned manual 911’s and I asked the Porsche dealer if any models allowed the rear window to pop up. He ignorantly (or just plain lying) said no, but later I googled “911 hatchback” and found the Targa series. Since I can have only 1 car I really needed the added versatility of a hatch back for Costco runs and film shoots, etc. I had been driving manuals here in NYC for over a decade, but with traffic getting worse, I decided the PDK was a good compromise, but that meant going for a 997.2 at a much higher budget than I had planned. It took 6 months of an extensive nationwide search to find the right low milage (11k) Targa 4s with leather, cooled seats and Pasm (for a softer ride on city streets and ability to firm up suspension when desired) Recently I had some paint work done and decided to have the entire car wrapped in Paint protection film, since PPF helped keep my RX8 bumpers in good shape. I plan to keep the car a long time, especially driving in an urban environment. Here’s a short video of my Targa being wrapped. https://vimeo.com/397358202 The installer did a custom wrap and used a film I was unfamiliar with, Stek. In researching, it appears to be even higher quality than the 3M and Xpel. I find it a bit hard to believe people would drive around such expensive vehicles, “naked” without PPF. |
We had a picnic on the beach in Carmel with Ron and Nina on each of our
two trips, near the Frank Lloyd Wright home that has a ship’s like prow.
Was really tranquil, serene. So glad we had those moments with them. Now I really am jealous! Carmel is one of the most beautiful cities. The tall trees, Monterey Cypress I think they're called, tower over the homes with their high canopy shading everything below. This filters the light and heat creating a scene of almost surreal beauty. The beaches are brighter but equally as beautiful. We had lunch at The Boar's Head Inn and this was back when Clint owned it but alas no Eastwood, I would give anything to meet that guy. Or even catch a glimpse. Still, what a place! |
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millercarbon I attempted to edit my post above to thank you in return for bringing back some treasured memories. We had a picnic on the beach in Carmel with Ron and Nina on each of our two trips, near the Frank Lloyd Wright home that bears likeness to a ship’s prow. Was really tranquil, serene. So glad we had those moments with them. |
Glad to hear your friends are gems. I hope you never experience the suffocating cauldron of elitism that is Pebble. We went there for the Historics the year Porsche was the featured marque. The wife thought the track would be a chore but she was sure the Concours would be fun so the deal was Laguna Seca Saturday, Pebble Sunday. Saturday at the track was a blast. An experience to remember. We both had a great time. The best. Sunday at Pebble from the time we got there was like being in a fish bowl. Every single set of eyes searching around, every single brain focused on rating social status, financial status, like their life depended on it. My wife thought it would be such fun to hang out with the high class crowd. She never dreamed the high class crowd would be so incredibly judgmental. We went in and ordered breakfast. Through the window we could see the most beautiful sight on Earth. Pebble truly does look like heaven on Earth. Beauty almost beyond words. With all the most beautiful cars in the world arrayed out on that impeccable beyond perfect lawn. As we ate we kept looking around at that gorgeous view, and the people coming and going. The people coming and going all inspecting everyone while studiously avoiding appearing to be studying anyone. My wife looks at me and says, "Could we go back to the track?" You bet! The whole way there she has this crestfallen look, could talk about little else but the people at Pebble. When we get to the track, step out of the Porsche into Laguna Seca, it was as if a great weight had been lifted. The air never so sweet. The people, angels. Truly this is heaven on Earth. |
Thanks MC. My father in law’s cousin (whom we affectionately call Uncle Ron) and his wife Nina recently sold their truly stunning home on the Quail golf course in Carmel. My wife and I were invited as their guests on several occasions to attend the Concours on the Quail, as he knew I was a Porsche enthusiast. Regrettably never attended. We stayed in their beautiful home several times —- and like the Risingers, as you eloquently put it, the home and surrounding landscape are one thing, but Ron and Nina are another. Very humble, genuine, gracious people who took us to an estuary, wineries, Doris Day’s restaurant in Carmel. Sadly they are having health issues and moved to an assisted living facility recently. |
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I had a friend in high school who inherited 30k from an uncle around 1979. He bought a ‘71 911E, and then a ‘67 911S. The latter was a truly amazing car. Mechanical fuel injection with lots of torque. Now worth about 250K. Have you ever seen a 67 S worth that kind of money? I have. At the time I was PCA president of PNWR. Paul Risinger lived nearby. Seen his 67 911S many times. The car is so freaking perfect you cannot believe! Paul did a Tech Session one time where he talked about how he does it. Most guys will devote a day or a long weekend to detailing the whole car. Paul picks one small part of the car like say the left front fender and spends a week or so perfecting just that one area. But Paul’s 67 911S is no garage queen. Bought new, it has been to Death Valley, and from there all the way to the arctic circle! Paul tells the story of driving one day and getting tired. Really tired. Was having so much fun driving, couldn’t figure out why he was so tired. Wife too. Until they realized the sun never sets, they had been driving all through the "night"! Your comment about the 67 S made me curious. As many places as this car has been, as much fame and glory as the Risinger’s achieved, it had to be on-line. Sure enough. $250k is low. Try $385k! https://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?103101-FS-RS-1967-Porsche-911S-Pristine-Conc... The car is one thing, but Paul and Shirley are another. Nicest most genuine people I ever met. Beautiful home in a beautiful neighborhood, made unbelievably harmonious thanks to their rallying their neighbors into landscaping with all Washington native plants. Imagine a neighborhood transformed into a National Park. They held concours in their back yard, gleaming Porsche cars on perfect green grass. Then we sit and enjoy the food and drink and conversation while gazing at all these beautiful, beautiful Porsches. Thank you so much dcevan for bringing these memories back again. Thanks a million. |
I don’t begrudge Kevin Deal or the many Agon members capable of investing serious money into fine cars and audio equipment. You earned it. If I had the means, I would do the same. David Berning monoblocks and Stenheim full range speakers are a dream that will likely never be realized. That said, there is a pompous tone to many posts here. And Kevin just rubs me the wrong way. No need to flaunt your success. Just drive on |
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+1 papafrog About 9 years ago I made the big mistake of buying a 2002 911 with an aftermarket supercharger. Intent was to buy an 85-99 air cooled 911, but didn’t feel comfortable in an 86 Targa as I’m a bigger guy. It was so fun to drive, but there were problems with the supercharger and I chose to sell it rather than having it yanked. A second mistake. Took quite a bath. Hope in retirement to have a 911 again. I had a friend in high school who inherited 30k from an uncle around 1979. He bought a ‘71 911E, and then a ‘67 911S. The latter was a truly amazing car. Mechanical fuel injection with lots of torque. Now worth about 250K. |
This thread is entertaining to say the least. OP wondered why audio and Porsche seem to go together. Don't we all appreciate the best of things in life?
Its all about personal preferences right?
Simple as that. People might tell me my audio gear sucks and may same for my P-cars, but nobody ever has. Why is everything a " **** measuring contest"? There are so many who know more about P-cars and audio gear than me. I respect their knowledge and try to learn - in both areas. Enjoy the drive, er...music |
Interesting that KEF is the only manufacturer to advertise in Porsche's club magazine. I learned of a new dealer I had never heard of in 40 yers in the local market. I ended up buying a pair of speakers from him. I guess advertising works sometimes. I am surprised there aren't other audio companies advertising there. |
sofaman-
Besides, the best Porsche ever is not even mentioned here: the 908. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsf8S3qgwX8 |
Just a reminder to all, despite the OP's car video which got this all started, Porsche / Audio are linked not by the auto business, but the side business of design. Porsche nuts here are probably more familiar with the story, but the Porsche Design folks who do everything from sunglasses to kitchen knives... also have a couple of audio products. https://www.porsche-design.com/us/en/porsche-design-shop/shop/electronics/sound/ Besides, the best Porsche ever is not even mentioned here: the 908. ;-) |
I'm gonna limit my focus here to 'Porsche and car audio' My 2012 911 Turbo S Cab has the Bose stereo upgrade. I can't really comment on it though because I upgraded the car with Europipes exhaust and always run with the top down. The car sounds absolutely amazing! Another pro tip: The Porsche 'rabbit hole' is very wide and very deep; enter at your own expense :) |
whart- I never liked turbo cars for their binary quality (Jeckell/Hyde) but I gather the 930 was a handful. Yeah that is something we all heard plenty of, but I actually got to experience it first hand! As a PCA Driving Instructor I once had a student who had one of these. It was a long time ago and so don’t hold me to the details but it was something like below about 4k RPM it felt like maybe 80hp, if that. Then suddenly, and I mean suddenly like a switch being flipped it had about 240, something like that. It wasn’t the power so much as the delivery. Like a freaking on/off switch! This means there is no such thing as driving a little faster. You are either slogging or balls out, no in-between! How anyone ever learned to drive one of these I will never know! It was quite frankly beyond me. I simply was not comfortable driving another guys car as fast as you had to go to keep that thing in the band. Another instructor more familiar with them took the guy out and when they came back the brakes, you could see the heat waves, and the owner looked to be on the knife edge between giddy and terrified! My first ever ride in a Porsche was a brand new 75 Turbo Carrera. It had a huge obvious surge but not on/off like this one. So I kind of want to believe it was this one particular car. But even so, to get the most out of one you really, really had to know what you’re doing! |
The point is Porsches are not and never have been about horsepower or acceleration but rather the driving experience.Amen...... '63 PORSCHE 356B Super 2021 PORSCHE 992 Carrera S Guess which is more FUN.....? |
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Yeah, sound systems in high performance cars are a waste. I wanna hear what’s going on on the road. I had a fancy system installed in my first Ferrari (McIntosh amp, etc.) and about 3 or 4 weeks after I had the car, had him remove all of it and put a blank plate where the radio was meant to go. In a big Euro Sedan, we had a kick ass stereo installed; the woofers ate up half of the trunk space. It was amusing. And then we moved on.... |
MC- oh yeah, and the CGT more so, based on some of the stats. One of the things that GT2 did do well was put down its power smoothly, and there was plenty of grip, so you could move ahead quite quickly, especially once the turbos really kicked in. I never liked turbo cars for their binary quality (Jeckell/Hyde) but I gather the 930 was a handful. The guy who serviced them had a lot of rare stuff-- aside from the celebrity cars , real factory race Porsches that were made based on the general contours of the 911, early pristine 911S (73 and earlier), etc. All were customer cars (though I’m sure some trade was done). One of my biggest criticisms of the car (in its 996 guise) was the interior- a plastic, here’s a push button tray made out of plastic in a 200K dollar car (more when you add all the equipment they wouldn’t allow the car to come in with by buying on the dealer side here). There was also something special about the "click/clack" of the gated gearbox in the Ferraris. I gather that’s history now and they don’t even offer a manual shift car. The gated shifter was part of a ballet of driving the older cars, which depended on revs to get torque and speed. 12 cylinders sounds big, but the engines needed to be run hard to get speed. Porsche can make monster speed- almost no contest. There is something quite appealing about older cars, which is why I bought the pre-war car. If I had found the right XK140 drophead, I might have been happy for a while. I was no longer into speed, or even measured events, but more into the long distance rally. We did the Targa Florio back in the ’oughts’ and it was fun even in a Flintstone mobile. |
I like Porsches. Had two of them, among many Italian exotics. One bonus of the Porsche was that it didn't attract the kind of attention that some of the Italian cars did. The GT2 I had was from the 996 platform, which in my estimation, fell short in a number of ways having nothing to do with performance, as such. I had the club sport (or whatever they call those options) installed after the car arrived; roll bar, sports seats, multipoint harnesses, different exhaust, etc. Thing was rigid as hell. I used to commute to NYC in it occasionally. The other was a late 993 c4 cabrio which was a nice GT car but not as light or tossable as the smaller, early 911. They make the best production cars on the road in my estimation. Now that I'm in Texas, I see far fewer exotics (the occasional baby Lambo or current Ferrari) but lots of good ol' 'Merican iron. Some of these are survivor cars- not worth the money to restore but cool as hell. I'm kind of out of the car thing, at least for now. We were coming back from ranch country up near the Oklahoma border yesterday and it was about 104F on Interstate 35. I just couldn't imagine an open top car in that kind of heat. Oh, I know purists like hardtops for rigidity and safety, but my joy was doing the B roads in an open car. The last "serious" car I had was a '20s era open top boat tailed speedster. It was rare and so were parts. I bought it as a cheaper alternative to a Bentley 3/4.5 "special" but by the time I was done sorting it, I coulda had the early Bentley. I love all automobiles from a sort of design/engineering standpoint- Ramblers, micro-cars, the French art-deco bodied stuff from the '30s. It's all good. Until you have to start restoring one. I think one of the most beautiful post war cars made was the BMW 3.0CS. Gorgeous. Another car that is probably not worth the expense of restoring, but back in the day, man, that would have been a great car to own (especially if you lived in Germany). At one point, I had a '69 MB 6.3 liter. It was like a baby 600. Very cool sedan with a big motor, oligarch interior fittings, adjustable suspension. Lots of things to go wrong. Or those '70s era Aston Martin Lagonda limo things. Talk about a money pit. But cool in a quirky way. Apologies for the ramble.... Carry on. |
The point is Porsches are not and never have been about horsepower or acceleration but rather the driving experience. There is no substitute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM2eMhY53N4 |
My Porsche driving experience goes back to the one I drove while in college, having graduated in ’66. I’ll let you do the math. It was a mildly rusted 356b Speedster that had a blown engine that was replaced with a VW motor. Driving the rural back roads of Vermont and New Hampshire in something so light and tossable is more memorable than anything I can say I’ve experience in my current 993C2 with all it’s RS goodies. The point is Porsches are not and never have been about horsepower or acceleration but rather the driving experience. |
1. Everyone bickering, meanwhile a GT2 owner is among us. True enthusiasts would be peppering clearthinker with questions about how awesome it would be to have a GT2. 2. As you probably know, a car is not classically a great environment for fidelity, but the modern Porsche Bose systems are better than the stock system in any other car I have. The Burmester is better, for sure, but it depreciates at twice the rate of the rest of the car. If you are an audiophile it's "worth it" but not by much. Just temper your expectations and you will be happy. 3. The Macan and Cayenne are wonderful cars but physics is cruel and at the end of the day you manage to accelerate a little faster with less roll on the twisties than you would in a RAV4 or 4Runner. All for the price of steeper depreciation and $500 oil changes. IMO a Panamera Turbo is "worth it" but a Cayenne/Macan (even a Turbo or GTS) isn't. 4. I'd love to daily a GT3 Touring but lol those are at the epicenter of the post-COVID-cool-car boomlet. Look at the trends on Bring A Trailer. 5. The GT4 is clearly the best bang for the buck (from a driver's perspective) in the last half-decade of Porsches. Ps01529 is onto something. Just my opinions. Which are all correct. |
I've paid my share of the Porsche tax! Had 87 944S track car, 88 944 Turbo S Silverrose track car, 89 944TS stroker 2.85 400hp track car My street Porsches 96 911 993 speedyellow Turbo 3.8 conversion 600hp/595 ft lb's of torque on pump gas @ 1 bar plus lot's of additional performance goodies, but it also had a nice audio system MB Quartz speakers, Bluetooth head unit, woofers Hertz amp and sounded excellent, but not as glorious as that flat six coming on to boost! Oh, l also have 78 911SC with low miles The Porsches are like my stereo equipment that l bought in the ninities that were simple, well engineered, well made and still working flawlessly today |
