File the claim. Waiting only lowers your chances of getting your money back.
You should file a dispute asap to have it on record with PayPal. As with any issues, PayPal will investigate and give the seller a chance to respond when you file a claim. After hearing responses from both parties, they will make a decision.
I assume significant time has passed and PayPal has released funds to the seller. When you file a claim, it will be a negative balance on the seller's account (assuming the seller's balance is zero when you file the claim) and PayPal will demand the seller to deposit money to cover the shortfall. In short, you should file your claim quickly because it will give the seller the urgency to resolve the issue.
@cfa88 thanks for explaining in a little more detail. Just to clarify, once I file the claim, paypal will charge back the payment to the sellers account. If the funds are.still in the sellers account, this will result in a zero balance in the sellers account or in essence freeze the funds until the claim is resolved. Or if the funds have already been withdrawn, paypal will charge back the payment to the sellers account resulting in a negative balance and demand repayment. This in essence will prevent the seller from withdrawing funds from any future sales where paypal is used. Maybe a stupid question but should I tell the seller I'm going to file the claim, thereby hopefully getting him to refund the money now rather than tying up "our" money for who knows how long? Quite frankly that is why I haven't already filed the claim.
My experience, advice:
Forget everything that has gone before, i.e. start fresh.
Make the claim asap,
Imagine PayPal agent opening up and reading what it is about. Reduce your claim to the fewest words you can.
state what you want 1st. Full Refund
state justification for your request. prove the problem, again, simply.
now, like an addendum, some backup
presumably you have copies in writing, assurances from seller to attach to your claim, in the original ad, and any questions/answers in writing, via eBay messages: both before purchase and after problem discovered.
don't even mention how/why/what the money moves, that will happen via PayPal's methods when they make a decision.
Now, I hope you fund your PayPal with your best credit card (not bank ...) Notify your credit card company a PayPal claim has been made. They approach it as FRAUD, and start a countdown, say 14 days. After that they contact PayPal. PayPal threatens seller to resolve the issue or PayPal will close their account.
Meanwhile, CC company puts a hold on the transaction. You will not have to pay the charge until the matter is resolved.
Best of luck with this.
Everything I buy, I PURPOSELY ask questions in writing via eBay messages to have those questions/answers in the system in case an issue appears.
@elliottbnewcombjr thank you for your advise and for going into more detail, and check, check, check, everything was done as you outline.
So do I and yes always fund with a credit card, never your bank 😉
@lalitk thanks for responding. I don't think the finite details are necessary to elaborate here. Suffice it to say, it does not work as advertised, which I have documented with photos and emails.
That’s ok. The only reason I asked cause if we know the problem, we could possibly offer alternate solution; maybe it’s an easy fix. I been through the dispute process and it’s not fun.
@lalitk already looked into easy fix. Not possible. Has to be sent in for warranty repair. So it looks like the claim is inevitable. And I know its not going to be a pleasant process Hoping to see the refund in my account today, but also know that its wishful thinking and that I will probably have to file a claim tomorrow.
Telling paypal that you worked with the seller to try to resolve but was unsuccessful is appropriate. "not as described" with supporting documentation will get you your money back.
I've sold and bought ten's of thousands of transactions via paypal and I've always been on the winning side both selling and buying because I always stayed on the high road. paypal once absorbed $10K loss from a scammer because i followed all the rules.
Up to you whether you want to tell the seller know that you will file a claim. I would not, due to you have given the seller time to resolve the issue.
To be clear, you won’t receive your refund right away when you file a claim. As I stated earlier, PayPal will give the seller time to respond and they may ask you for further follow up questions possibly. PayPal will make the ruling based on responses from both buyer and seller. The whole process will take up to a few weeks depending on how soon each party responds. Once you file a claim with PayPal, you will live with its decision and it is considered final.
Thanks to everyone for their help thus far. There is progress. I just received a PayPal credit to cover return shipping to the manufacturer. The note from the seller on the PayPal transaction says that this is a partial refund to cover shipping to the manufacturer’s repair facility and that the (stated amount) balance will be refunded to me upon receipt of the DAC at the repair facility. Seems that the seller is now on record at PayPal and that he has documented my case even further that a refund is due me. As I would now expect to have the RMA very soon and maybe have this nightmare over next week, my thought is to hold off for now filing a claim with PayPal. If for some reason it does not happen as indicated on the PayPal shipping refund note I could then file the claim with the added documentation in my favor. Is my head on straight? I’m totally exhausted with this whole mess.
I fund my PayPal account with a PayPal MasterCard. Not only to I get a couple points back, when I have an issue, and I have, they are right on it. I recently found numerous small fraudulent PayPal account transactions going back several months. I reported it to PayPal and got nowhere. I reported it to MasterCard and I received full restitution (almost $500) within a week. Along with a new MC.
Personally I think PayPal sucks they have gone way down hill.
I sold a preamp for $4k the buyer wanted special packing at ups and wanted 2 day delivery over $500 ,he sent monies , then after it shipped he decided to change his mind rejecting delivery 3 times , it took another week to return to me
paypal said the guys was not playing by their rules they refunded all the buyers monies back including the $500+ which he specifically wanted and was documented. The sellers are the victim ,and having a excellent record didnot matter
that's their policy., another time recently I sold speakers and the buyer told them I overcharged and ripped him off ,he showed them a older pair and he said their was wood stains but wanted to keep them ,PayPal went into my bank account witha E check and took the $600 . I went to my bank and filed a complaint unauthorized a and got monies back . Stripe is more ethical imo ,even Audiogon uses stripe now ,when you take out an ad via credit card it shows stripe. There are 1,000s of others over the last few years especially vs sellers 90% of the time , where is the democracy ?that’s my point !!
You sending it back to the Manufacturer (rather than the seller):
Essentially that would be a warranty claim, and most companies warranty's are NOT transferrable. If not transferrable, best to return to seller, get a full refund and go shopping. Let seller handle a warranty claim for himself, then sell it to someone else.
1. even fixed, do you want that model?
2. IF you want it if fixed: you could discuss with the Manufacturer a transfer of the warranty to you. (now for this fix and for the warranty's duration remaining). If the maker is responsive, I would probably go for that.
File the claim now. The manufacturer may not fix under warranty as the unit was shipped to you and you are not the original owner.
All this being said. we are a manufacturer and repair facility. I have seen plenty of boxes double boxed in perfect condition where the unit no longer worked. Sometimes these units get dropped and the box is in perfect condition but the unit suffers damage from the drop.
Thanks again to everyone for your ongoing help and support. As I said above, I’m through with PayPal for now if not for good. Fortunately I have a relationship with the manufacturer too, so I know that he will fix the unit under warranty for the seller. Waiting on the RMA now which hopefully should have tomorrow. I already thought about the box being dropped causing the problem. But the boxes both outer and inner were undamaged and the very heavy interior packing was proper and all intact. Plus I don’t think the problem I’m having would result from dropping the box, but who knows. Once the unit is fixed it’s going back to the seller assuming my money has been fully refunded. I own the unit right now so I retain control over it until my money is refunded. Then I’m buying the same unit BRAND NEW. Gotta provide a little incentive for the manufacturer too. I think I’m done with used equipment for now. I normally buy new anyway so this experience only reinforces that. I think I have my bases covered. Fingers crossed I’ll be listening to my brand new dac in the not to distant future. Stay tuned.
marco1, I am sorry to hear this.
I only once had to file claim with paypal but it was not about audio purchase. In that case the seller just didn't send me anything. It was a few years ago, though, and there was no problem with paypal refunding the money after, I think, three weeks or so.
Never heard of Stripe.
I have only ever had to file a claim once against a seller and the process was quick and painless. PayPal has an accrual account for just these types of issues, under a certain threshold. If the seller has moved the funds and is issued a chargeback and do not fund it they will be banished and PayPal can take legal action.
I always purchased through PayPal with AMEX. If I ever had an issue I filed it with AMEX. AMEX will then file a charge back with PayPal.
PayPal and their claims department is completely unreliable. Occasionally they rule on your behalf, occasionally they don’t. See my point? If you pay with AMEX they instantly credit your card and you then return it. I’m not fooling around with someone who doesn’t want to take responsibility for selling bad goods. AMEX, don’t leave home without it.
I know that everyone has been on pins and needles waiting to see what happened :-). So I'm very happy to report that just this evening I finally recieved the last of what was owed me by the seller for a full refund including the additional shipping that I paid to send the unit in for warranty repairs for the seller. It took some persistence but its finally over. I said I would name names once things were over so here goes. The DAC in question was a Denafrips Terminator Plus. The problem was the LED display for one of the frequencies did not light. As it turned out a little bit of debris has shorted the contact. Most likely happened when the prior owner popped the top for a firm ware upgrade. The factory service center fixed it under warranty the same day it arrived. I can't say enough about Vinshine and their stateside service center. Its absolutely the best service I've ever recieved for audio repairs EVER. Alvin, Vincent and Todd (the service tech) are wonderful people to deal with. And you could say that I really wasn't even the "real" owner. At least the warranty was not in my name. If you're thinking about purchasing a Denafrips product and somewhat leary of what might happen if you ever needed service, fret not. Vinshine and Denafrips provide absolutley first class service here in the USA. No need to send back to China. Regarding the seller, even though it took some "gentle persuasion" he finally came through. Of course it didn't hurt that my attorney brother-in-law lived in the next state over. But I guess there's always two sides to every story, so under the circumstances I don't see a need to name names in this case. I've definitely learned a lesson though. No more used gear. At least not til I find a deal I can't refuse😎. Thanks again to all who offered advise. It's nice to have a community like A'gon whose shoulders are there to cry upon when needed.
Another unhappy PayPal user here. They submitted a charge for a cancelled order from eBay and the bank denied it and charged me $35. I had a nice long conversation with a PayPal agent who said “Yes, we see the cancellation. It’s been submitted twice ($70 fees) we won’t submit it again. Well, they submitted it again today. I had put money in the bank to cover another payment. So the bank pays PayPal and gives me a negative balance. The cancellation was November 2nd. PayPal was paid for the that was cancelled seven days ago. This is ridiculous. “Yes, we see your cancellation but we’re going to take your money anyway, lie to you about it, **** up your checking account, and you’re going to have to fight us to get it back. Never again.