I have the krell EVO , and i ve owned levinson,
The gryphon i have not heard unfortunately ,as there is no representation in holland as far as i know .
If i was going to spend big bucks on class A amps i would not forget zanden audio their watts go a long way , they probably will not have the completely unlimited control/dynamics as the big krells for example , but you will have that enough and that tube (triode?) zanden magic and its very special , real " non hifi" |
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It's not about which amp is the "best" it's about which amp works with your speakers and with your ears. At this level $$ buying by "the label" is a big mistake. |
Symphonic Line Kraft 250 ot 300, stereo or mono amps. The Kraft 300 mono amps are one of the best amps I have ever heard. They are pure class A. The Symphonic Line Kraft amps are in the same league as the Soulution amps. The Soulution pre amp is in a legue of it's own. |
Consider the 60 wpc pure class A Luxman M800A - 60 wpc into 8 Ohms, 120 wpc into 4 Ohms and 240 wpc into 2 Ohms.
The 30 wpc Luxman 590Aii integrated amp is also highly regarded.
Regards,
Mark
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The Best Class A amp of all time is the Krell Master Reference Amps which is no longer made -- leaps and bounds better than anything else including Pass, Krell FPB, current EVO lineup, Levinson 33, and MBLs. This is my informed opinion since I own the Krell Master Reference and every amp listed in the previous sentence with the exception of the new Krell EVO (although I have listened to this amp twice at a friend's house). Superlatives in every sense when describing this amp. Downside would be size, heat, and price. |
IMO, if you are truly considering the Colliseum, you need to also consider the new Dartzeel monoblocks, the new VAC monoblocks, and WAVAC high-powered SET amps. Forget about not 'messing with tubes' at this level. |
changster---
in all fairness, my expereince with the krell 700s was 10 years ago or so, with different speakers and set up. so, it is hard to try to compare.
i did hear the krell evo amps and pre 2 years ago ,and was very impressed with their sound.
the gryphon's strongest arm has always been their amps, and with the colleseums, gryphon pushed the envelope even further, imho. |
Ozy - thanks for the constructive comments. I've listened to the Mirage/Colosseums and I thought they were fantastic as well. I just haven't done A/B comparisons with them which I hope to do.
Compared with your old Krell 700's how would you describe the differences? I'm curious to hear the differences with "old" class A vs new class A. |
Al Gore has a class A amp. |
My apologies.
Massive power hungry polluting chunky ugly things are best.
If you own a Hummer then of course you also need Class A amplifiers.
My mistake. |
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changster---
i owned the rockport hyperions speakers for 3years before selling them, and had the following amps/preamp combinations with them--
mbl 9008/6010
bat their refernce ones/rex
burmester 911/808
gryphon colleseum monos/mirage.
of them all ,the gryphons were simply stunning sounding and really brought the hyperions to life.
i recently repalced the rockports with the tidal sunrays, and the sonic results are fantastic.
the gryphons have that grip and control, coupled with sheer musicallity, that must be heard.
i agree with those who stated that class A is the only way to go.
btw, i had a pair of krell fbp 700 amps several years ago ,and really enjoyed their sound at the time. |
i think you can make a cost evaluation on date of purchase,if you think it is useless to spend super megabucks on something like a luxury item ie a sound system, when if you have that kind of cash to throw around ,you can use it for more important issues. |
What a lofty selection. I've heard the Evo and few other Krell amplifiers as well as a number of Pass Labs. Hearing these all in different environments I wouldn't give much weight to my opinion of each. I would go so far as to say, at this level I'd be much more concerned with the preamplifier presentation assuming you'd be using the same brand. In the case of Krell's Evo it's a system approach. To some degree so are the other brands your considering.
Big class A watts, talk about a carbon footprint. |
Nglazer, I wish I would have said that! Energizer, WOW! |
You cannot just evaluate the cost of a product on the date of purchase. To test its true value, one must amortize its cost over its useful life. By that measure, my Krell FPB 300cx, though expensive on Day 1, has proven to be an excellent value. After 7 years of use 320 days a year, it has never had a hiccup, burp, mystery outage or any other type of malfunction. I have every reason to believe this reliability will continue for years to come. And I know there will be a company there to service it if something wears out. I don't have to worry if a German or Scandinavian mfr will still have a distributor in US or whether it can the amp can be serviced here.
And, BTW, it sounds great! It may not be to everyone"s liking, but it is to many, and has been for many years.
Neal |
OK, I WAS NOT INTENT ON BASHING KRELL.MY HUMBLE POINT IS THAT BASED ON PRICE POINTS THERE ARE MORE CHOICES OUT THERE.PERSONALLY EVEN IF I COULD AFFORD KRELL, GRYPHON BURMEISTER ECT, I WOULD NOT SPEND THE PRICE FOR THE LISTENING EXPERIENCE.FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CAN AND DO,THAT IS YOUR CHOICE.TO KOEGZ AND TPREAVES,BASED ON THE TONE OF YOUR RESPONSE. I DONT THINK ANYTHING I SAY WILL MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE ON YOUR OPINIONS OR MINE. WE WILL AGREE TO DISAGREE. WITH KRELL AMP I LISTENED WITH MARTIN LOGAN SPEAKERS.OTHER AMPS I HAVE HEARD ARE MARK LEVINSON, LINN ,MCINTOSH, GAS, SAE, AB INTERNATIONAL , MARANTZ SANSUI,ONKYO,LUXMAN, THRESHOLD,CROWN,STROMBERG CARLSON, HH SCOTT., SPEAKERS- MAGNEPAN THE OLD 70S KLH VON SCHWEIKERT FOCAL MISSION MIRAGE KLISPCH INFINITY DAHLQUIST MONITOR AUDIO DCM TO NAME A FEW.WHAT EVER CHOICE A PERSON MAKES IF THEY ARE SATISFIED, AND WHAT OPINIONS THEY EXPRESS ALSO THERE IS A MULTITUDE OF PRODUCTS OUT THERE I WILL NEVER GET TO LISTEN TO.I MAKE MY CHOICES SO DO YOU. |
Samuel; that is an impressive looking room and set up you have. thank you for your inteligent thought out responce. I will say I have done the highend run around a few times and never have enjoyed it. never really what you want under the right conditions or exact equipment to hear. the best is always whats on hand. don't like the feel of pressure either. even when they are acting like there is none. I am a ware there are many ways to get to the same or similar points. find the bashing and put down of obviously well desighn and thought out equipment to be ignorant and repulsive. I never said Krell is the one and only. I have had experiance with a fair amount of high end co, beyond the product is the backing up of said item. i must say that Krell does that better then most/if not all i have dealt with. which if not important to most it should be. i intended to speak to andy this week. thanks again alway nice to hear from a non basher. HNY p.kogan |
I have evaluated LT or owned amps from Gryphon, Symphonic Line, Clayton, Krell (KSA),NRG, Lamm, Essence, Classe' as well as host of tube and Hybrid designs, Of all the Class A bias amps I've lived with I found the Luxman MA800 (stereo) achieved the best balance between pitch articulation, dynamics and musicality. I tried them with Wilson speakers but have also listened to them with many other speaker designs and still recognized their even-handed nature. I know Andy's speakers well enough to know they would mate well with them. I heard the Rockport Antares with Boulder and thought that was extremely impressive but I believe the Luxman's will be a tad warmer and more musical than that or a Krell combo. I would ask Andy for his opinion as well.
The Gryphons are likely a great choice but at these prices its worth some leg and ear work to test a few contenders and find the best match for you.
Happy listening!
Grant
Shunyata
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I double dog dare you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
ok energizer I'll bite, what amps with what speakers did you hear with and with out krell, and what amps and speakers spicifically(brand and model). were these side by side comparissons. come on I challenge you to back up your statement! And audiofeil tell us what is it that makes Krell a "dinosaur"? be spicific. you are obviously very knoledgable, so come on here is your chance, be technical. show us all you know. i am waiting with baited breath, show me how uniformed I am! I DARE BOTH of YOU! |
You're quite correct Energizer but Koegz has every right to collect and play with dinosaurs.
Everybody needs a hobby. |
ok koegz no need to get snotty.are there better amps than my monarchy?YES.however i cant afford the :best: and YES THERE ARE STILL BETTER SOUNDING AMPS THAN KRELL. |
thank the audio gods that we have so knowledgeable audiofiles to protect us from these over priced only fair sounding equipment! i desided i am going to sell everything and copy your set up. i only hope i can find a pair of "monarchy audio se-100 monoblocks". may the gods be with me! |
considering the prices paid for krell; i have to say that they are not worth the price.there are better sounding amps out there at more affordable prices both class a and other. |
I agree with Rtn1. Try an audition amps with the Rockports. Your perception based on lived experience will help you navigate your purchase decision process. In addition, there is something to be said for the cognitive knowledge of the technology used, if you are convinced that it matters. The perception of what will make one satisfied is personal - Class A or not, tube or not, you set the value for the criterion in question. In the jewelry business with precious stones, people talk of mind clean vs. eye clean. Some wish to purchase flawless or near flawless gems because they know they are so, even if they cannot see the imperfections of other stones with a 10X loupe. |
Class A amps do offer lower distortion.But that does not mean they sound better.The distortion levels on A/B amps when well designed are also extremely low.
I agree that Class A amps do tend to image well.But good A/B amps do so too.
My experience with Class A amps are the opposite to those of Rtn1.I have found they lack vibrancy.
I am not talking about Class A tube amps-they are great.
I am not saying they are bad,but rather they offer no real benefits over the more efficient and better value A/B amps.
You are better off spending the money on other components.
They are about marketing and perceptions not performance. |
There is a reason why Class A is favored by top producers of amps, preamps, and DACs. It need not matter whether one speaks of transistors or tubes. It is not to waste electricity or to create monoblocks that need to be shipped by freight instead of a routine carrier. You can read the reasoning behind class A on a technical level at manufacturers web sites. To my ears, class A has a very dynamic, energetic, palpable, and 3-dimensional sound. There may be some good A/B equipment which is quite enjoyable, but class A is the real deal and not hype. I had an amp with a A and a A/B switch, and it was akin to going from mono to stereo.
My opinion is to narrow your choices down to 2 contenders, demo each in your own system, and enjoy. If you have not bought your Rockports, get your dealer to help you or at least work with you to clinch the sale. I would think your dealer would be interested in this question as well. |
Classicjazz -
Yeah I've also read the same comments on the Gryphon older amps, but I heard their newer stuff (even inluding Antileon Signature amps) is a different breed. I listened to the Mirage/Colosseum mated with Rockports and it was fantastic. The Colosseum was everything the Antileon Signature was, except the soundstage grew bigger, taller, and deeper (forward/backward). Maybe just slightly fuller too in size of the image. All in all, very very close.
Good feedback on the Lamms. There are no dealers where I live unfortunately. |
I've owned the predecessor to the Antileons, the Reference One Mono blocks and from there went to Lamm M1.1. I have also had Lamm M1.2 amps, Krell FPB series, Krell KAS2, Pass Aleph O. If you wish to buy American, you might also consider Boulder, which is top notch.
From what I have read about the Krell EVO, the sound is supposed to be quite good. I am not sure the internal heatsinks dissipate enough heat insofar as they are basically enclosed.
As for sound. The Gryphon I owned were powerful, a bit dark and rough around the edges and were absolute heaters that eventually became unbearable to live with in southern California. But they were impressive nonetheless. The Lamm M1.2 amps are sonically excellent but at their price point, I find the build quality to be reminiscent of something I could pull together myself at Madisound (I refer to the chassis and hardware, not the circuitry of course). |
Kurt_Tank - wow that's an interesting read. Hope it works out for their founder. There's always two sides to a story so we'll see what happens. |
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I have owned and used many Class A amplifiers over the years.All with the expectation that they should sound better than Class A/B.
I have never heard any evidence that this is the case.
They sound slightly different but I would not say better.
I even owned owned a single ended Class A SS amp that looked like a room radiator.
I have owned two amps on which you could select Class A or Class A/B operation.I prefered both in Class A/B but the sonic difference was very slight. |
Audiophiles seem to get really sucked in by banks of heat sinks for some reason. Yes, I read that a lot. (Facetious) My guess is you are being a bit tongue-and-cheek here, but your post is a simple statement with no follow up. Why do you feel this way? Positive comments I have read on Class A amplification have been consistent in specific qualities. |
Why limit yourself to Class A?
There is a perception they sound better,and of course they look like they should,but that does not mean they do.
Audiophiles seem to get really sucked in by banks of heat sinks for some reason. |
Spanking aside, 35 years of audiophilia, my own tastes and 6 years of "cohabitation" tell me Krell FPB 300cx, properly matched with the right cables and preamp, will more than hold its own with any amps near its price range, regardless of Class.
neal |
audiofeil,so you are saying that the quality of an amp is dependent on the speakers and not the other way around? i thought it was the closer to the source? don't the amps make the speaker sing? please explain. oh and i do like(love) krell, that is not to say there are not other options. |
>>12-19-09: Dlcockrum
Duane, my Krell FPB-600C amp will soundly spank whatever it is that you are listening to.<<
Well that's foolish.
The speaker is critical in evaluating any amplifier. I can list a dozen amps that will outperform your Krell with certain speakers. Many of which cost far less. Does that make them better than your Krell?
Without knowing what amplifier he employs, your assertion is pure bravado/bluster.
Step back, take a deep breath, and re-think your position. |
Back to the original topic..
I don't think anyway has compared the best pure class A from the Pass pre/post amp vs the top Gryphon pre/post vs the top Krell pre/post. I'm sure all are great. I guess I will just have to coerce these dealers to bring it to my house and test it A/B/C.
Would be also awesome to compare these with the old best pure class A (or at least very high bias) i.e Krell FPCs, ML 33/33H. I don't think anyone has the luck/resources to do it though.
If I find anything out I'll post it here.
Cheers. |
Yeah, buts it's easy to make audiophiles believe something else sounds better. I've been in the high end audio business for a long time too and I've seen and heard a lot of super expensive and high quality equipment. I still like Krell's amps. There are other amps that sound great also but Krell has amazing control over almost any speaker. Which is an important aspect of sound quality. I am not saying there is no better sounding amp in the world. I just think Krell can get the best out of almost any speaker made. I am open to something smaller and less expensive in the future. |
I have owned and played with many Krell products and have known Dan since 1983.
His stuff is sexy and well built and he stands behind his product but Dan has high frequency hearing loss. That is why he auditions amps with headphones.
The reason I have had many of his products is because I have worked in the high end business for 29 years and I have upgraded over 100 people from Krell to better sounding equipment.
Inside the industry they are known as the Sony of high end. This is why when Sony ES introduces a new design they show how it holds its own with Krell.
These are all facts you can check out. |
"The Krell shouldn't be in the list with all the other fine amps listed and the Pass has a metalic glare at the top end."
Pure crap. The Krell FPB series are some of the finest amps ever built. Pass .5 series are also among the best sounding amps available.
Duane, my Krell FPB-600C amp will soundly spank whatever it is that you are listening to. Exactly which Krell amps have YOU OWNED?? Pass?? |
Koegz - agree Rockports are fantastic. I've looked at your system serveral times on here and must say you have a very nice setup. Did you listen to the Arrakis before you purchased the Altair? Did you think it was a huge difference? I have yet to hear the Altairs. I went straight from Aquilas (brilliant) to Arrakis (unbelievable) as they didn't have Altairs in stocks. Same room, same equipment/cables, same everything else, the Arrakis had the same characteristic as the Aquila but just more of everything. Bigger soundstage left right up down forward backward, more air, bigger dynamics and slightly more resolute. I can imagine the Altair's being 95% of the Arrakis if the Aquila was 85%. |
Krell is still one of the best when it comes to amps. |
Luxman makes several pure class A separates as well as integrated amps:
http://www.onahighernote.com/luxman/
Regards,
Mark |
Changster i own the altairs and they are fantastic speakers. they are a last purchase for me, although i have considered the arrakis move. i do not understand all this krell bashing. i have owned many krell amps and preamps and have been QUITE HAPPY! i to have considered tubes but each time i do, and then look and listen, i go back to krell. tubes to me are to hot, to much maintenance and to much bloom. there are other great ss amps out there, MBL for one. for me, i love the krell cast set up and i am considering a move to the one's as well. i find the cast interconnectors great, convient, flexable, resonably priced and great sounding. only down side may be exsisting management. time will tell. |
Another class A that has little press is the ISEM Quasar.Maybe another audiogon member can help with information. |
Thank you all for your kind responses.
Clayton Audio - I looked into it but I'm not sure if I'm ready to dive into a brand like this. I've seen the good reviews and I'm sure they're a quality product/company but it doesn't seem like their prices are much lower.
Rtn1 - I don't see the Pass in your listed system. Are you still running the BAT preamp and now using the XA200.5 with it?
Peterayer - Yes I'll try and demo the Pass preamp/amp but it will be hard to do so mated with Rockports, and almost impossible to do A/B testing vs Gryphon, Krell, etc. And I agree they are much less expensive than the others. That's one reason I'm looking at it as a good value (can't believe I can even say this since the XA200.5 is damn expensive still). Have you played around with other preamps with your XA.5 amp?
Argryo - I've seen you tout the Tidal Sunrays in many threads. Have you ever compared them with Rockports, Magicos, etc? Do you still find the Tidals the most lifelike (live) of them all? I love the Rockports because of how "live" and lifelike they sound to me, i.e very similar to the small jazz pubs I frequent, and even the loud rock concerts I go to.
Lamm - thanks & yes I'm taking a serious look at that as well. So many audiophiles swear by them. It's unfortunate they don't have a dealer/distributor where I live (Taipei).
Thanks again for all the responses. |
