Schiit was at AXPONA again this year. They were showing a Salk music server streaming into a Gungnir Multibit (?) feeding a Freya and two Vidars. Speakers were the Salk Song 3As.
So what happened?
Esoteric was just next door. This allowed attendees to move immediately from one room to another. Esoteric was showing a full stack of thier latest separates plus a VPI Avenger for analog. Speakers were a pair of Cantons I didn’t get the model of.
The Schiit room, while not bad, was completely destroyed by the Esoteric room. Esoteric played one SACD that unfurled a massive soundstage that I could sense even not being in the best seat. The sound of the Esoteric system, both via SACD and vinyl was dynamic, resolving, extremely musical, collected, vibrant, both large and delicately structured. It was a system that got all the minor details right. Such a good setup. The Schiit setup, while unoffensive, clean, and musical in its own right, simply couldn’t face the Esoteric in inner detail, soundstage, reality and low-level dynamics.
Why did the Schiit system fail so hard vs the Esoteric? Part of the reason might have been the junk cabling used by Schiit. Peaking behind the system I was Blue Jeans speaker cables and mess of power bricks, basic cabling, etc. I don’t know how much of the Schiit’s performance was compromised by inferior cabling, but I’m curious how close it would have come to the Esoteric had Schiit paid some basic attention to that area.
w3ua1 posts04-20-2018 10:10pmRule of thumb: Sound quality depends on: 1. Room acoustics -- 40% 2. Recording Quality -- 30 % 3. Speakers -- 25% 4. Electronics -- 4% 5. Cables -- 1% (proper shielding and grounding only. Rest is snake oil) So, if the sound quality difference was so prominent, it has nothing to do with DAC... Shiit is a great DAC.
So much thread drift here but this requires a response. You are entitled to your opinion. You are close but incorrect IMHO. Without percentages and simply ranked in order of importance; Room Acoustics Quality of Source (cartridge/turntable or digital front end) Electronics Setting up speakers optimally to room (arguably part of Room Acoustics) Wire Choice of loudspeakers
The choice of loudspeakers affects the CHARACTER of the sound far more than the so-called "accuracy" or level of being "true to the source". All loudspeakers suffer from more distortion than any other link in the chain. So many confuse character and quality. Yes, like a nose on a face, a loudspeaker has a huge affect on the perceived sound character, but it is subjective. This debate never ends and I only respond out of compulsion, knowing that I will never change any one else's mind and that instead, a certain number of audiophiles will come to this conclusion out of experience, age, and wisdom.
The O.P. doesn't know what he's hearing and he doesn't know what he's talking about. Whatever his reason is for claiming the schiit vidar failed the comparison it wasn't because the schiit amp wasn't as good.There are ten other more plausible reasons why the esoteric room "sounded better" (if it, in fact, did and the O.P. isn't simply making all of this up, which I suspect he is).
I'll hop onto this two year old thread!I was at Axpona 2019 and thought the Schiit room didn't compare well either. I have a Loki in my system, and it did have to go back for service (the infamous humm), but it sounds great now. Service was excellent after 18 months. Their other gear reviews well too, but I wouldn't buy it after hearing it at Axpona. I was there with my wife, and she agreed - sounded flat, 2D. Not full like other rooms.
I think they need to benchmark the other rooms and find a better combination of gear. Maybe try some different speakers? Can't remember what they ran. There was plenty of good sounding rooms, and everyone pretty much starts out with the same room. -Geoff
Running a Saga S here with a Modi 3 DAC Pretty good if you ask me Does all I want it to Been using a few day but so far I am Happy And No Hum either Run with Parasound A23+ and B&W 805S plus my sources
Polish them horns devilboy, and wash that little superhero suit before Mom comes home...Single ended tube amps with or without transformers..."dude"...however, apples are crunchy or not, can be red in color or green or speckled or otherwise, and historically were used for cider all over America to offer general drunkenness...bananas are very different, and although generally shipped green are usually yellow when ripe. Really not much of a comparison, there ya go.
I disagree with the distortion argument since my SEP (pentode, not triode...a little more power) likely is running on a couple of watts until louder things require maybe 5 or so (in my estimation anyway), and the amp with 99db speakers ain't working too hard. If those evil alleged distortions are what's making me like my amp, then that's just fine with me. I do dismiss critics claiming to know what I'm hearing since they're not here, and even with the bandwidth or lack of distortion or whatever claims are made for Ralph's OTL amps or Berning's ZOTLs, not everyone prefers those designs. I know exactly when my amp "runs out of juice" and when it doesn't, and it sounds so much better than any other design I've heard over the last 5 or so decades I'll likely keep the thing forever.
wolf, Given your speakers, you cannot do better than the M-60s or the 30 watt stereo amp. After using one of Ralph's amps you will realize that much of what you liked about your SET amp is actually distortion and that these amps, even with efficient speakers, run out of juice very quickly. Another option is the ZOTL stuff from David Berning.
I have zero interest in ANY transistor power amp (I’ll read about them...otherwise, no no no) in my main listening heap, class d or a or a/b or yer mama. I’m limited to efficient speakers, but that’s just fine as they tend to hurl the sound at my earballs with more gusto than otherwise, and my simple single ended tube amp sounds so damn good. I’m now becoming more curious about OTLs like the Atma-Sphere stuff (although I’m not so sure there is anything "like" Atmas-Sphere’s amps)...perhaps that’s my next step if I can deal with 16 tubes instead of 4...I might have to talk to Ralph...balanced stuff appeals to me, and I like the word "circlotronic."
Hi wolf and thanks for your description regarding your time with the Aegirs. My speakers are a more difficult load to drive than yours and I was a bit worried that the XA25 would have a problem with them, but the Aegirs tempted me anyway. I have the Schitt sys and for what it is I like it, and there may be a Freya + in the future for my second system.
I have gone a different direction than most, and have recently had a pair of Museatex Meitner mono amps modded (pretty much totally new amps inside) by John Wright who was associated with Meitner, and am happy with them.
I had 2 Aegirs, the first was too sensitive and shut itself off with little prompting (at not so loud levels), and the one that replaced it would only shut off at more extreme levels so I assumed it was working as designed...still, although I don't listen at high volume much, I do sometimes crank the system a bit if I'm next to the listening area in my kitchen, and with Klipsch Heresy IIIs it really should be more difficult to trigger the shut down mode as they get loud with relatively little power. Still, it shut down with no real heat issues and before any audible clipping. Anyway, with high hopes for some Class A magic prompted by curiosity from the Stereophile review, I listened to a bunch of my faves on the Aegir. A very resolving amp with a sweet tone...but...with my Dennis Had amp nearby and some furrowed brow Aegir sessions wondering exactly what was lacking, or at least why there was some sense of artificiality or a hard to pinpoint lack of ultimate accuracy of timbre...I put the Had tube amp back in the system. Note that this amp, using various tube options over the last couple of years, delivers pinpoint accuracy and musical micro resolution, and a slam that surprises you from just 12 to 17 or so watts...clear as a bell. Anyway, although I consider the Aegir a very nice design that should satisfy many, it just couldn't beat my little single ended masterpiece from ol' Dennis, so back it went. My curiosity regarding the Pass XA25 has waned somewhat but I'd still like to try one someday, but no hurry. Bottom line: To my ears my Dennis Had Inspire Firebottle HO simply sounds like music should, has been a reliable little workhorse since day one and never lacks for anything in my particular rig.
15% various noise cleaning methods for the gear ( not so much the choice of cables but first and foremost cleaning the connector and the connection also isolating the component from one another electrically speaking)
25 % only for the gear quality (Because at the end good amplifier are good and good speakers good with not so much potential differences inside one level of audio quality scale...)
My evaluation is right, " inside" each one of the 3 level of price/ quality scales in audio ... For example exchanging a 1,000 amplifier for a 10,000 dollars one invalidate my percentage ratio... Same for the speakers... If you give me the right room and electrical grid I will make low cost speakers sound like costly one that are located in another not so good room...
I also learned painfully that the best ratio price/ quality product are not necessarily the most hyped and known one ( except vintage one that are recognised legend with time passing)...Most of the times less known products are the best, not the totally unknown product for sure, but the underestimated one by most.......This is my experience paid with my money... :)
In a way the newfound sensitivity of some members is getting to be a bit of a problem. I know wolf was thinking of purchasing either the Pass XA25 or the Schitt Aegir, the exact two amps I have been considering.
So if I ask him what he liked better about the SET, or what he did not like about the Aegir, would he be considered bad mouthing the Aegir?
That’s a crock of Schitt! (sorry, could not resist). Really though, for those of us considering the Aegir versus other amps it would be very helpful to hear his honest evaluation.
jsautter, I guess you don't like Schiit Audio products then. I suggest you buy whatever makes you happy. The Freya + is the best pre I've heard, and it bested my gear from Parasound, Nad, Anthem and Denon while being much cheaper. Many others are also finding that Schiit gear outperforms, but it's not the equal of the top tier stuff costing 3000+ per component. I'm fine with that.
I have heard numerous Schiit products at Shows and have a friend who had their highest end amplifier (or integrated) and brought it over to my house to listen for a day. No in home experience with Tekton but I have heard them at Shows as well and thought they were less than impressive. In fact the Tektons sounded exactly how I expected them to sound based on the design. If all members could only make comments regarding equipment they have purchased or listened to intimately these forums would be pretty lonely places. Are you taking sensitivity lessons from the Klipsch crowd?
I haven't heard every Schiit product, but I am very fond of my Freya, Loki, and two Magni IIIs...all of these are relatively inexpensive, as is the Aegir that I didn't like so much and sent back since I prefer my single ended tube amp.
Okay, list which Schiit Audio gear you've purchased and not been impressed with. To make a claim like that, you've either had several pieces, or you're trolling. Not sure what you're trying to say with the Tekton brand...
I have never been impressed with the Schiit stuff even when I consider the very reasonable prices. More of the same "giant killer" stuff we have been experiencing lately with Tekton in my opinion.
Freya is only $700. That allows you to put more money into your amplifier, speakers or whatnot. And the flexibility with the 6SN7 tubes and the Balanced XLR input and output. A fully balanced system does seem to have advantages.
Thinking of gear as competing in a "pushup contest" is funny. I replaced a serious dual mono balanced preamp that sounds fabulous and listed originally for a couple of grand with a Freya. The Freya doesn't "blow the other amp out of the water" or sound like a 30 grand ARC Reference 10 (I've heard one of these...seemed to work OK), but it seems to not have a sound particularly...it doesn't hum or thump or add or subtract anything in my rig...it just allows music to get to my ears. The largest change in my gear pile is the addition of Gold Lion KT77s to my Dennis Had SEP amp...great tubes making my already coherent rig sound better...I can only say that the Freya is fun to use and you can forget it's there.
Why would anyone expect a $1,000 system sound better than a $50,000 (or more) system?
Everyone is looking for the proverbial giant killer... I've yet to find one.
If you pay attention you will see lots of new internet darlings come and go, only to be replaced by the newer internet darling offering top level performance and bargain basement pricing. Playing the upgrade merry-go-round can be fun, but it's very expensive to return pennies on the dollar when the flavor of the month has lost it's sparkle.
I own a Freya and love the fact that it uses 6SN7 tubes that can be "rolled" to your listening pleasure. Bought it when the Freya 1st came out. I use the Tubes Mode most of the time, but it is really good to have the Passive, or JFET modes as well to play the same songs and hear the differences between them. The Passive Mode is very transparent and I have found some days that I would have a Passive Mode listening session and enjoy it just as much as I would in Tube Mode. The JFET Mode adds a hair more body than the Passive Mode, but is a great experience as well. I also had been using a Schiit Modi Multi-Bit for a year and then upgraded to a Audio Alchemy DDP-1 that has a DAC and Preamp both in one unit, and a external power supply that is very robust, to say the least. So I went straight from my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 to my Krell KSA-200S amplifier and with some really good cabling the sound was improved an order of a magnitude. I also use a Singxer SU-1 USB Bridge connected thru AES/EBU going into the Audio Alchemy DDP-1. So I had an idea.... I had read one of the friends of the Schiit Company had used the Freya in a way that was kind of different. So I thought to myself that I would try to send my XLRs out of the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 to the Freya, and then out the Freya to the Krell amp. Figured that I could use the DAC on the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 and the Freya for the preamplfier. It didn’t turn out the normal way at all. The Freya runs full tilt (no volume control) and the Volume Control from the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 works to control the volume. That’s the "kind of different" mentioned above. Now you say to yourself.... why would you put another piece in the system chain? Wouldn’t it sound better without the Freya. Well the answer came out in the 1st ten minutes of listening. The Freya Tube Mode just gave the perfect amount of "Tube Goodness" to my Martin Logan Montis speakers. So much that I couldn’t take it out of the chain, unless to remind myself of what the Freya added to a Solid State Krell, and the whole presentation. The best part was the ability to use one of the other Modes (Passive, or JFET) with the remote control on the Freya.
8 months later, I’m still every once in a while listening to my system in Passive or JFET Mode. The ability of these 3 Modes alone, will be of major use for owners of the Freya. All of the Modes sound amazing. I like the Freya and the choice they made with the (4) 6SN7 Tubes. They are one of my favorite Tubes. I think I’m up to 18 of them. I’m sure that going up in price about 5 times of the Freya could bring you a Audio Research Preamplifier used that would kick it’s ass. So that’s my take on the Freya. Highly recommended. And at $700, it got me tubes and balanced XLR with remote control. Try to find that at any price less than a few thousand dollars.
I have a Loki which I really want to use and like. The concept is great and I like the ability to control the EQ is some situations (old classical vinyl and early blues) I have 3 different systems and its buzzy and noisy in all three, 1. Office Croft Micro 25/ Croft 7 Power amp Harbeth P3ESR (Nordost Purple Flare Speaker cables/ Kimber interconnects) DAC Arcam IrDAc2 2. Living Room -Cary SLP98L (Primo NOS 6sn7 tubes)- Project Phono Box RS/Prima Luna Prolog 7 Mono Blocks, (Primo NOS tube Upgrades) all Nordost (Cables-Red Dawn Speaker and Blue heaven Interconnects) DAC Arcam Ir Dac VPI Classic/Hana SL (Kimber Upgrade) Primo Power cables/Kimber- X 3 CablePro Noisetrapper NANA power strips I offer this info to show that the Loki is the company of decent gear, it is basically, a dead quiet system with the blackest noise floor until I add the Loki. It buzzes in every position I place it. I have written twice to Schitt for comment and I requested information on a better quality power supply as I think the super cheap power supply's that ship with Schitt is in fact total Schitt. I have never received a reply. I actually visited their store in Santa Clarita CA and was met by a rude young man who seemed bothered by my desire to ask questions about the gear on display. I will try a 120v 16W power supply from a different supplier in the hope I can get this little thing to work. I wish this company well and want them to succeed but their customer service for me is non-existent. I did wait for a while to comment on this thread, hoping for a reply to from Schitt to my latest email? no such luck.
PS, I had a friend borrow the Vidar power amp to drive his Quad ELS 57's and hated that combo. He said it was harsh. He did not spend much time with it. It may have sounded better if it had more time to break in? PS I have a Schitt SAGA preamp (primo NOS Kenrad 6sn7 tubes) that works just fine in my bedroom set up.
Wolf, Partly because of your experience with the Freya, and partly because of research I’ve done online I have ordered the Freya but won’t have it for probably three weeks.
The damn things are so popular that they can’t keep them in stock, apparently. Any criticisms that I found on the Freya have to do with tube issues which I am not concerned about having no desire to go down that rabbit hole anyway.
Judgmentday, I feel your pain...I have an amazing sounding dual mono balanced Kavent S-33/Vincent (rebadged for reasons I don't understand) preamp that I have actually dragged to friend's houses to see if it sounded any better than other things, and it does. After owning a Freya for 6 months or so I recently stuck the Kavent back in the system and it still sounds great, but the Freya sounds better. Tubes…NOS Sylvanias, etc., and note that the Freya is so inexpensive relative to its features and sound quality that there actually is no current competition for it in the marketplace, except for maybe the Schiit Saga which gets good reviews and is simpler. OK Judgmentday, you can stop reading now. Also, regarding great sound back in the day, many other bands that cared about sound used piles of Altec A7s, including a Bob Dylan and the Hawks show I saw in Hawaii in 1966 or something…loud and life changing.
Read this article about the Dead’s introduction to good sound - and parallel universes.
"At the time, live sound at rock concerts was extremely primitive. Musicians plugged their instruments into amplifiers connected to single-channel speakers. There were no onstage monitors, so musicians couldn’t hear one another. Owsley wanted the Dead not only to be clearly heard but also in stereo, a concept so far ahead of its time that it would be ten years before such systems were installed in movie theaters. Thanks to Owsley, the Dead were soon playing through four immense Altec Voice of the Theatre A7 speakers powered by four McIntosh 240 stereo tube amplifiers as delicate as they were huge."
Now going back the subject has any one here listened to the Schiit Freya Preamp vs. any other major Tube preamp like the Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Audible Illusions, Cary Audio, etc. Preamps?
Gdhal so true, maybe their greatest legacy aside from Rock’s first and foremost "jam band" is allowing themselves to be recorded during their concerts. Agreed, Workingsman Dead and American Beauty are definitely the place to start to those unfamiliar with this band. Love the passion btw and expected a little backlash. I’m just a mere fan rather than a bonafide "dead head".
wolf_garcia - They established the "jam band" concept so there's that, and were a zero downbeat cruise feel…some great musicianship though, and the 2 studio albums "Workingman's Dead" and "American Beauty" were fabulous.
+1
I'll add that their live recorded music music is among the best IF NOT THE BEST quality from an overall resulting sound perspective. The vast majority of their shows are available in multiple mix type soundboards, front of board audience tapes by tapers who were allowed and encouraged to bring the best-of-the-best recording gear , syndicated radio shows where the music was professionally mixed and remastered ie. Grateful Dead hour hello shout out to David Gans / sonic solutions, and on and on.... DEAD-ication to sound quality and excellence... a band beyond description ......
tubegroover - Speaking of Jerry, since we’re on the topic, I always looked at the Dead concerts as a happening, certainly nothing too substantive in the big picture as any kind of seminal band that had a real impact. Just kind of cool place to hang for 5 hours. Of course it didn’t hurt to have and sustain a good buzz, "Those were the days my friend we never thought they’d ever end" but they did, kind of, "All things must pass" but our remberance is pretty cool too especially reliving those times through the music and good friends.
Grateful Dead... nothing too substantive in the big picture...
You’re joking.
I have nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile.
A very cool place to hang indeed....
buzz... it still doesn’t hurt to have and sustain one......
They established the "jam band" concept so there's that, and were a zero downbeat cruise feel…some great musicianship though, and the 2 studio albums "Workingman's Dead" and "American Beauty" were fabulous.
Speaking of Jerry, since we're on the topic, I always looked at the Dead concerts as a happening, certainly nothing too substantive in the big picture as any kind of seminal band that had a real impact. Just kind of cool place to hang for 5 hours. Of course it didn’t hurt to have and sustain a good buzz, "Those were the days my friend we never thought they’d ever end" but they did, kind of, "All things must pass" but our remberance is pretty cool too especially reliving those times through the music and good friends.
I've been somewhat of a "Jerry Fan" since they did a couple of shows in Honolulu in 1970 (I recently found my original $3 ticket in some stuff from my late mother's house). To me, and most musicians around at that time, you could not imagine that band would be around as long as they were (and are in some form), but I never again saw them live as I'm not so much a festival attendee. I did frame the ticket, and there has been a recording of the Honolulu Civic shows from 1970 released recently…I should get that recording...
I think it is natural for all of us to compare systems, even in different rooms. What I find odd is to make hard comparisons between two radically different priced products. If you can, you need to be calling the inexpensive product... Product of the year!
Just goes to show you what happens when I make an assumption based on my background and focus....Have other posters mistaken you for a Jerry fan as well?
First time posting. I read most of the posts on this thread and am amazed that there is a discussion on comparing 2 different systems in 2 different rooms without using exactly the same music, recording and source. How can anybody compare systems that way?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
