1.Design - what is IYO the best design and why? 2.Sound - How would you describe the sound in comparison to other speaker designs? 3.Amplification - what works and what doesn't? 4.Is the WAF stopping your from moving in that direction? What do you like or dislike about SD spks? DIY v.s Commercial designs - Pros and Cons.
Feel free to express yourself and your thoughts about the Single Driver design speakers in this thread.
Ideas, your projects, pics, experiances are all fun and welcome.
From my experiance with at least two SD commercial design that actually worked like a charm, I have to say that I am seriously concidering it as my next DIY project.
Hey John, here in NY we came out with the idea which helps with moving unwanted or excessive gear/parts/services. It is sort of audiophile "garage sale". Ones a month we hold the audiophile meeting (Rave) where auditions/deals/trades can be made. No PP fees, shipping, aggravations etc,etc.
I have. Its OK. Good in small system or rooms.Ive built with Jordan and 1 of my friends really explored the same design CAD uses. Tried many small drivers of quality. If you want some thing special check out fe138esr its a 5in the best small wide band Ive heard. Works great in TL designs.
At the risk of stirring up the 4" hornet's nest again, anyone heard any design based on the 4" Jordan driver - such as the Carolina Audio designs? I know this driver has a following.
Glad you can use them. I have much stuff about. Nice for someone to enjoy it. Not into hording;) One of my friends is is homes filled with TT, Tone arms, NIB Lenco TTs. Little goat paths run through the tall piles of kit. Have more maybe I should have a audio rummage sale;) And invite my TT bud. My Piles start at 1890 to modern. Love the vintage but I don't use just collect. Might be time for someone else to enjoy it.
Here are some sketches. One is the prototype of spiral design (similar to the omni that I am working on. Except the driver will be firing upwards toward the wood-turn cone.....as well as super tweeter in the same configuration) and Sachiko with a twist:
Hi Jeff, thanks for your email. The surrounds and center look very nice. It is cool that you did not forget about those who might think of using your speakers for their stereo rig but still have an option to expend to 5.1 SACD or AC3. Without a doubt, it must be a great "SD speaker" system.
Seems like you do not get to much rest lately. It has been only a month and you've already came out with the new subs, center & surrounds. Very impressive.
As to my prototype, well it is nothing to go bananas about. Yes, its size is/will be much smaller then Madisons - about 54" high, 12" deep, 12" wide. And I am not really trying to replicate the sound of the Sachiko. In fact, my biggest challenge and what drove me into this project is the idea of the single driver speaker that is: - relatively easy to drive, including SET amps. - manageable size - very high WAF ( my wife loves these speakers already and gave me her blessing for this and another project) - achieving decent low frequency response. - source direct and omnidirectional qualities. - but the most importantly - awesome, 3D, dynamic and huge sound that can be fit into the small to medium rooms.
There is another project that I am also very exited about. True omnidirectional speaker with the use of the single full-range driver and horn-loaded super tweeter. But that is in the really far future.....maybe next year or so.
I will be more then happy to have you over to listen to the first pair. Sometime by the end of this year during one of the NY Raves. I am planning to host the special "Analog Rave" - with my two or three modified TT, Sachiko and Double Spiral speakers as well as RWA (Red Wine Audio) new (prototype) battery-powered phono-stage and my own Isabella battery preamp. Should be fun.
I will try to share with the rest about the progress and the end results.
Maruiusz........love the design. Will be interesting to see what kind of low frequency extension you can derive from it. Looks like plenty of "tuning" opportunities, but SPL is where my interest would be here. As you know, I am a big fan of the artistic approach as well as the sonic potential. This design gets high marks from me cosmetically. Love the look, and I'm glad to see that you'll be the one doing all the sanding to make that path smooth...lol. Nice creative flair, though. You'll have to bring them down so I can audition them. The reduced size is a true benefit of this design if you can come even close to the sonics on your properly built pair of Sachiko's. Thank you for sharing. Best of luck with it. I did email you to give you my contact info, as well as some pics to share.
Design will be based on the double spiral horns prototype by fellow DIYer. The actual spiral will be more advanced Loading top and bottom of the speaker equally with dispersion wood tuned cone (mushroom). The distance between the cone(s) and the mouth can be adjustable to fine tune the bass. Driver used will be modified Fostex Fe206e .
I am hoping to have this speaker finished by the end of this year in very advanced cabinet and exotic finishes with help of few talented craftsmen and myself.
Jeff, please do contact me if you could. For some strange reasones ALL of my contacts and emails vanished from my Gmail account.......I do not think it is becouse of my porn addiction :):) but I still have to get in touch with Gmail staff to try to recover my contacts etc.
The center and surrounds sounds like interesting idea. In fact, I have the plans for on-wall Single Driver Fostex base surrounds as well but since I am not into HT stuff (love film but the format and excesive gear idea... sucks) Those might never see the daylight.....who knows. All I can say - you are on the right track just keep on going. From what I have heard, you will do just fine. I wish you a great success with your line of speakers. You deserved it.
As to your guess........well you are probably right.....I have some crazy ideas.
Sachiko boxes will get some "Royal" treatment. Tweaking them is another story though. I still have few weeks to put the master plan in motion. That is the time when the custom drivers will arrive. But that is half of the story. (the helf that I am not to worry about) The other half is a completely new design that I promised to post in this thread yesterday but did not. I will try to do it tonight.....if time permits. I will be looking for thoughts, reactions and concerns from fellow audiophiles and DIYers.......and you Jeff as well.
I will come back later tonight and try to pass on some details and pics.
I have heard the Cain and Cain iBen's several times and they were just great. I heard them with some Cary Audio SLP98P and Cary low power amps (can't remember which ones) and a VPI HRX turntable, what a great sound that system made.
They had the Cain sub with them too.
Beautiful speakers too.
This is the only single driver set up I have ever heard that I liked. To me most sound very limited.
No apologies necessary, T. They are very similar in their outward appearance, and it is easy to make those assumptions. The original models were exact to the plans for the Sachiko,and is one of the finest single horn designs I've heard. The original designer of those plans, Scott Lindgren from the UK, is also responsible for the upgraded design path/internals for the new CarderSound models. The difference is not subtle, and upon hearing the original version Madison, I was doubting that it could be made better, but Scott schooled me the day I built the first new version cabinet. In this case, I was very happy to be proven wrong. The new model line cabinets(v2)are the best performing horns I've heard. That doesn't mean there isn't better out there. I just haven't heard it.
But, make no mistake, Mariusz is on a mission. That boy just might come up with something really special. My hunch is he'll spend more time on tweaking than he did to build his new boxes. I get the distinct feeliing that he'll die tryin'. Right, Mariusz?
Thank you both for the kind comments. T, building your own pair is both fun and rewarding. Do it. There is little that can replace the feeling of firing up your boxes for the first time. They don't even have to look that good, to sound good. You should see my first pair. I wouldn't show them to anyone, but they make wonderful sound in my shop, and are a constant reminder to me of what I don't want them to look like...lol. Practice practice practice.
If you run into any stumbling blocks along the way, and develop any questions, please don't hesitate to get in touch with me through my web site. http://CarderSound.com/ I would be more than happy to assist you in any way I can. Good luck with everything.
Mariusz, I look forward to our next meeting. I just finished the center channel and the rear HT surrounds. I'll email you some pics when I get a chance.
Apologies Jeff and thanks for your answer, I had read on other threads that the Madison was based on the Sachiko, and I remember a post several months ago by yourself saying that your then newly formed company was building speaker cabinets from the Spawn family plans on the Frugal Horn website. I was not aware that Madison had different internals than the Sachiko. I commend you for your commercial attitude towards the designers back then and admire that you have developed the internals of your boxes further.
Thanks for the comments. I thought the dips on the Spawn family plans website were perhaps spurious. That makes me feel quite a bit better.
Listen to well design SD speakers and you will find it very hard to go in any other direction. Match it with SET amp and its seductive qualities andd you will be in heaven. Build it yourself.....ahhhhhh , what a felling. Seat pretty and enjoy the magic.
Jeff's line of SD speakers is the perfect exemple.(others too) Is Jeff's design base on original Sachiko (Cardersound Madison)? I do not know and I do not care. What matters is that it is a fine speaker (As well as TyBone). The point is, that when done right - it works. Sure.......to get the most out of any design, one must pay atention to details and a lots of tweaking. The fruit will show in sound to die for.
Jeff, thanks for opportunity to audition the Madisons and TyBones. They are awesome.
I am in the works to build my own Sachiko based speakers as well as another (new design(s)) SD speaker that hopefuly will turn heads.
I wish you well and hope to see you again sometimes.
Sorry for the delay in my response, as I haven't been visiting the board lately, and I would like to thank Pauly and Mariusz for their input. The new CarderSound models(Madison on down), are completely different than the DIY plans on Frugal-Horn, so a direct comparison would not help you. They are not even based on the Frugal-Horn designs except for their similar outward appearance.
For what it's worth, Pauly and Mariusz are exactly on the mark. To answer your question more directly, have no fear. In practice, most of the nulls shown in the graphs for the FH models will not exist -they're mainly caused by limitations in the software.
Your above proposal is not so simple , necessary or present any benefit over the original design.
One of Sachiko's design benefits is that the speakers can be placed relatively close to the front wall.
You can always try to improve the build quality, tweak the box and the driver.
I will include the link tomorrow what I had in mind by double horn spiral design and omnidirectional wave guide by the use of cones at the top and bottom mouth exits.
Another interesting design would be a single spiral horn with driver firing upwards towards cone-dispersion piece for omnidirectional qualities. A use of the super-tweeter might be necessary or helpful in getting the right amount of resolution and air.
Thanks Gents (Mariusz & Pauly), The last two octaves are important to me because I think they're important to the music.
Mariusz, couldn't the spiral simply be a matter of switching the "hole" to the side (covering the front), and switching the stacked ladder (which is seen in the back corners of the top and the bottom) so that it guided the wave out that side rather than the front?
Tybones have great image, speed and soundstage....no question about it.
Bass is dynamic and tunefull but if the last two octaves are important to you, I would consider the Sachiko double horn design and 8" Fostex instead.
Your spiral idea is quite difficult to execute. I am working on the similar design as we speak and I can tell you that it is far from easy. In fact, my design includes double spiral horn with omnidirectional qualities.
T_Bone, the bass compares favorably with that of my Meadowlarks. The Madisons need no bass reinforcement as mine are 6-7 from the walls.
Soundwise, the Meadowlarks now put me to sleep. They sound so terribly slow compared to the Madisons that I had to relegate them to HT duty. (And I really did like them a whole lot before)
As I mention, I cannot hear any dips, but I suspect we are not sensitive to dips in sounds as we are to peaks. My room is heavily treated so this could possibly give me a flatter curve than the one posted. Its difficult to say - I go by ear alone and dont let measurements drive what I like or not.
Pauly, I am intrigued so am thinking of how to make some myself. I expect I could get some relief from the LHS of the graph through room/floor/ceiling reinforcement (and if one could spiral the top horn so it went out the side, I would could improve the bass even more.
With your comparison to the Meadowlarks, are you suggesting that the Madison bass compares favorably? or that you can tell the difference...
My original question was actually referring to the dips from 200Hz up to 1000Hz, where immediate-space room reinforcement probably plays less of a role (but reflections play more of a role).
TBone, the curve also seem to indicate a 10db drop from 90Hz to 50Hz, but in reality my Madisons are very strong in the bottom. I can easily compare them with my HT speakers which are Meadowlark Shearwaters which are rated -3db at 34Hz.
Obviously my ears arent SPL meters, so it may be that the attenuation at the bass, and the dips you refer to, are present and I am not hearing them. To my ears the Madison are some of the very best speakers I have heard bar none.
Jeff (Cardersound), The Frugal Horn website shows a modelled frequency response curve for the Sachiko, on which the Madison is based I believe. The curve has some mean dips in the lower mid-range area. Can you tell me to what these are due? Are they artifacts of modelling? Do they show up in real life?
Couple years back (I think in 2007), during N.Y Home Entertainment Show if memory serves me right - I audition Lipinski speakers and met the man himself. From what I've heard, it was one of the few positive demonstrations over the 2 days period spend at the Hyatt hotel. My impression (then) of Lipinski speakers reflect those found in Stereophile review - accuracy, lock of coloration, delicacy and dynamics when called for. Of course with use of his own subs and paired with SS mono-block amps.....which but away , you can all have in the sweetest deal ever.
Or you can wait few months and I will inform you and ask you to hear for yourself - brand new speakers that hopefully will turn heads ( at very reasonable price I might add).
Mariusz - That's great! I read Stereophile review of 707 speakers. Have you heard them? The other option is to keep modifying my current speakers but I have already problems with new tweeter (Morel Supreme 110). Maybe two Fostex unit could replace speakers I have. Size is pretty much the same and the box is very rigid (Paradigm Studio/60).
"Mariusz - he is my countryman as well but he operates in Massachusetts and it is not walking distance from where I am. I will take you on this offer - didn't you say 75% discount?
If all the hi-fi 'brains' leave this site, we will end up talking about cars, food, bikes, drink and other drivel subjects etc. It will be a sad day indeed.
Not that my opinion counts for anything, and how I feel matters not in the whole scheme of things, but for what it's worth, nice job and good call on your last two posts. I was delighted when I saw your responses. The choice to continue posting is certainly yours to make, but I think it would be a grave injustice to our hobby if you weren't contributing. I wish you the best of luck and am truly happy to hear that sales at KCS are favorable.
And Cdc if you want a great plan for a TL fe126e. Email. Will send it out, build is not so hard. Sorry if things are taken wrong. As I said not a gifted writer. If I seem short or rude its just the way I post, in real life I am tall and rude;)
Does seem a few manufacturers don't credit nagaoka. But KCS is not one. Think its well known I am a Nahaoka fan boy. Even my fe206esr cab was 4 generations up from nagaoka original design and again hes mentioned even in my review. All our cabinets are optimized from nagaokas and we still mention as do we fully disclose parts etc. Do other manufacturers? I could list many who no longer list origin of design parts etc. But KCS is no longer offering any BLH models except large bass horns but will custom build if asked. For now KCS is offering 1 full range driver loudspeaker a SEAS exotic equipped AS cab. And did I get up on the wrong side of the bed. No Ive got a SEAS exotic in my bedroom system I smile as soon as my eyes open. 1st thing I do is turn on tunes. I go to bed as they play;) No things are good for me I just seem surly for I am not a gifted tech writer or linguist. And I come across as short and a know it all. Seem forums are not my thing. Will stop posting. Spend more time with my boy sales for KCS are good. No worries except autism and politics.
JohnK "Cdc You've decided that 4in c37 are the best. "
I never said this. If I said something to get you upset, I apologize. You have a wealth of knowledge and I would rather share it.
You then quote me as saying "you said no 8in is close to 4in in performance " Again, I never said this. Rather I asked you "I would need more clarity to understand how every 4 inch is worse than any 8 inch, except for bass and dynamics, of course." Not sure why you are taking what I wrote out of context.
JohnK "Seems you like to add things never said but imagined." Nope, that's what you are doing. I don't know why. I have taken direct quotes from your posts and responded. I have enjoyed your posts and advice in the past. JohnK "You say I am a know it all," Once again, I never said this either. I was referring to your tone. Hardly a "helpful" tone as you say you are trying to help me.
For me, the funky soundstaging of an 8", whether Fostex or $14,000 Tannoy Westminster, and the rough HF of the Brines F200, is just as distracting as the loss of dynamics of a 4". That's why I would like to hear a good 4" T-L design. I think it would be the best of both worlds.
You do know a lot and I would much rather have you explain stuff like phase of SD speakers as I showed in Jordan's link. Thanks
Gawdbless, I agree, I would like to benefit from his wealth of knowledge than get blasted by it.
>And slapping a coating on a cheap driver doesn't make it better this kind of so call modded drivers will have reduced performance if one really understands transducer or cone design.
John,
Get up on the wrong side of the bed today?
I guess one good rant deserves another?
I can't agree with you about not being able to improve a loudspeaker with careful treatment (otherwise i wouldn't be a proponent). You can also make it worse. With 30 years of experience under my belt, i don't get very many duds anymore (and those don't ever see the light of day). And as many know i freely share what i have learned.
As to the performance of a small driver vrs a larger one, one has to consider the box it is in, the room the box is in, the partnering equipment, and the compromises that the end user finds the best mix for their listening & emotionally satisfaction (not to mention budget). Since there really is no such thing as a true full range, one is going to have to compromise somewhere. Personally i find the 4-5" drivers to be the sweet spot, but a couple helper woofers -- if you can get them to blend -- can really add to the experience. And once one has crossed the line to helper woofers, then one can consider things like the FF85KeN + woofer, one of my current favorites,
If you are not willing to cross that line, and need bass, or have a really small amp, you have little recourse but to choose a larger driver.
As far as rants go someone could write a similar discourse about manufacturers taking poor performing Fostex recommended designs and selling them as their own. Or even taking the good ones and not giving credit where credit is due.
For instance we burned our build of the Fostex FE126 recommended Bass Reflex/TL hybrid (Fostex calls it a horn/BR hybrid) as its performance was not up to snuff -- not even good enuff to give away -- but i have seen these being promoted out in cyberspace (and with no acknowledgment).
'DIY is good :-). DIY takes time to do so it slows me down from changing stuff out every few months. DIY also makes it impossible to justify a $1,000+ amp when I can make one for $200 or so. I'd be spending time on the chat sites anyhow so might as well put the time to good use and make stuff myself'.
I think Johnk has been doing this for years. Experimenting sorts out the good from the bad. Experience is everything. Mr K is a wealth of knowledge in this field.
Graphs, charts, software, data sheets galore...check
Years of speaker building experience....check
Expensive brand name speaker wire.....check
Expensive brand name binding posts....check
Well researched and proven design plans....check
Enabled drivers........check
Wait....no...c37 drivers.....check
No, wait.....expensive stock drivers....check
Hmmmm, maybe.....inexpensive drivers...check
Finishes........check
Opinions, biases, slight of hand......check
Checkbook......check
Reviews......check
Distribution.....check
Marketing......check
Oh, and ....lol...almost forgot the most important...Ears...CHECK
Everything I've left out......CHECK
Wow, we all have lots to think about. From the newbie trying to understand and plot an audio path right up to the most knowledgable and respected individuals in our hobby. For the record, John, I consider you the latter. Facts, opinions, hyperbole, passions, confusion, and unfortunate but true, some real snakes whose sole focus is to rip off the buying public. On this, we agree.
These attributes are common to our industry, because they are common to life. I won't waste anybody's time discussing it in detail. Just like I've done and still do, folks have to forge their way through all the fog. Experimenting, stumbling, reviewing, building, buying, selling, etc, to find your audio truths and nirvana.
First, with all due respect, don't try and tell me that your post is "not an attack" when you say things like "This modded drivers just a way for a schmuck to make a buck"....and "Better to buy a more costly original equipment driver than let any self proclaimed expert muck one up so"....and "Average DIY types using coatings on cheap drivers than pricing such up. Is almost as bad as the polished rocks and magic clocks." That, in my humble opinion, is an attempt at political trickery, and I was shocked to see that you put out that type of verbiage, to say the least. Respectfully, though, I understand loud and clear that it is your personal "audio truth".
In so many ways, I am glad that I am not a self proclaimed anything. I just build cabinets and market them. I develop my audio truths as I go along, and yes, they change quite frequently. Like any truth, audio truths are a moving target, always changing and evolving. Serious convictions that I acquired in the beginning, have all but been eliminated over time, and I'm sure that will happen over and over again. Which, brings me to my own personal thoughts about eNaBled drivers.
Fact: If there was one best way to go, we would only have one choice to select from. One amp. One preamp. One CDP. One DAC. One IC. One speaker cable. One Speaker.
Reality shows us something entirely different. Our choices and selections are HUGE! This can be both good and bad. Fact: Each person hears differently, and sometimes, wants to hear something different from his own system than he hears at his buddies house.
I've had this experience many times. I've come away from peoples houses with expensive systems thanking my lucky stars that my budget system sounded the way it did. So, to say that eNaBled is a waste of money, or that it takes a system backwards, or is a rip off is an unfair statement in my opinion and shouldn't be heralded as such a concrete fact in the manner in which you put it out there.
I'm certainly not going to deny the fact that with regards to eNaBled drivers, there aren't very passionate believers and non believers, but does it change the sound? Sure it does. Whether or not it changes it to your particular taste or not, is not for anyone of us to decide except the end user. It is not a scam, rip off, or a joke. From what I've read and heard, Bud P, hasn't made much money from his countless hours of testing and research, except for the few audio enthusiasts who feel obligated to reward him for his honorable efforts. Mostly on a donation basis and a "hand shake" personal commitment from what I hear. Instead, he has shared on many forums(and I'm sure thousands of emails), this info free of charge to any and all who were interested. I would hardly call this "a schmuck to make a buck", but you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.
Personally, I enjoy what the eNaBled process does for the sound coming from my speakers. So much so that I now include them with all my horns as standard issue. That's not to say that if someone wanted to save a few dollars(about $160), I wouldn't install a stock version. It's the way I want to hear it. Some say, eliminating cone break up kills the HF organics and makes things sound "less real". My ears don't hear that. For sure, the process does give the impression of increased bass and seemingly better integration of the bass to the mid bass. I just love this part of what eNaBled does for my sound. This is what I hear, and frankly, I could care less about all the data and if the process makes the cone slower due to added weight. Cones are made of many different materials all the time that certainly effect their speed, weight, performance, etc. And, as a result, they produce a certain "sound". I guess I like a fast single driver "slowed up" a bit, but many may ! not care for it. Who cares? To each his own. If you like the sound they produce, buy it, keep it, listen to it, and be happy. If you don't like it, why not simply say, "it's not for me", or something to that affect. Don't attempt to degrade someone's passionate attempt to produce and offer a product they believe beneficial to their hobby, and then call them a scam artist, simply because they might be profiting from it. That's just plain wrong.
Everybody is right. Everybody is wrong. And, in the end, all that matters is if your happy with your choices. Both in audio and in life. 4" driver? 8" driver? Are my 2 7" drivers in my sub woofer better than 4 15" subs in a bass bin? No one could ever say for sure. It boils down again, to a matter of taste and what you want to hear. In my simple experience, they produce different presentations. Both are right, and both are good. They produce what the designer intended them to do. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wilson Speakers. I have read some pretty damaging posts and script on the Internet. Not all of it negative. Not all of it positive. Some call it the most inaccurate loud speaker on the planet. Who cares! What matters is if it produces the sound you want to hear. Personally, I don't care for any speaker that has a crossover, but that is my taste, and for whatever reason, or how I developed it, matters not to me. I am happy with what I hear coming from my system. I have heard two different Wilson models, and although they are not my cup of tea, and certainly not affordable to me, I would not say that they are not a formidable offering. Is Dave Wilson a scam artist? Hardly. He certainly believes in his product and is a great marketer, and in his own mind, justifies the cost he charges to own a pair. Ultimately, a manufactures success in the market, is driven by just that. The Market. The buying public is who will always have the power. Regardless of opinion, Dav! e Wilson is in for the long haul. Are there equivalents out there for less money? Yep. Could it be someone's opinion that there is better out there for less money? Yep. just like amps. Just like cables. Just like speakers.
Bottom line. It is sound. And, it comes in all shapes and sizes to fit individual tastes and applications and budgets. I would just offer that no one should discourage someone else from experimenting with a different product, simply because it doesn't make sense to them. You might be robbing someone of their audio happiness in the process. Especially when it comes from a well respected industry icon like yourself, John.
Try as anyone might, there is simply no right and wrong with some of our choices in this hobby. Spend what you are willing or are capable of, and just enjoy where the journey takes you. And above all....enjoy the music your way.
Close your ears to us all, and open them to your own system and music. After all, that is the only truth worth believing.
Cdc You've decided that 4in c37 are the best. Why do you need any more info, I gave you enough. And you want me to show you how something sounds? This can not be done. I suggest since you can afford it, you try out[listen to in home]to these many different designs with larger drivers and get back to me in a few years. I use these drivers, design for many full range drivers, work with manufacturers of such. I do have a bit of knowledge about performance. And I gave my opinion as did your all encompassing comment you said no 8in is close to 4in in performance and this is wrong. Other way round for me buddy. Ive tried them you have not. For 2 years I even offered a fe126e design. You can read in what you want. Seems you like to add things never said but imagined. I was just trying to help you out. But time is wasted on those with such faith. You say I am a know it all, well, know one knows it all but I seem to have a bit more experience than you. If this is arrogant to you, nothing I can do about how you feel. Oh never said you are a schmuck unless your the modifier. You take other generalizations as posts about you personally, well that's ego man;) Happy listening
JohnK "This modded drivers just a way for a schmuck to make a buck..." Okay, you think I'm a smuck. But maybe you should add "IMHO" 'cause just maybe, not everyone thinks the same about me.
Johnk "Cdc just how many 8in full range designs have you've owned?" None, as for the money, none have impressed me enough to purchase. That would be stupid to pay good money for something that does not sound good just to satisfy your "qualification" that you require, IMHO.
JohnK "And slapping a coating on a cheap driver doesn't make it better " Very insightful. Anything more intelligent to add than that?
JohnK "More weight on cone might lower bass but would reduce treble, midrange, reduce peak SPL ,driver is now slower" Nope, treble HF extension actually increased, not decreased. Do you know MarkMcK at DIYaudio? He has also increased HF extension by adding strategically placed dots on drivers. So maybe you should be more careful in what you say. Especially when it's in a nasty, arrogant, I know it all manor, IMHO.
JohnK "And since its 8in can play much louder and lower" Agreed, and if that's what you define as better, you are right.
JohnK "Many who can not afford the good stuff delude themselves into thinking what they purchased is better. Good for the ego but bad for others when this wrong info gets passed about as fact" Is this is a personal attack directed at me because you think I am too poor to afford a more expensive system? Nice guy. Sounds like you have the ego problem. You can say the same thing for people who spend big bucks for a speaker like an F200 driver. Like: "Many who can afford the good stuff delude themselves into thinking what they purchased is better. Good for the ego but bad for others when this wrong info gets passed about as fact" And people who spend big $$ are much more likely to have the big ego IMHO. How can I possibly have a big ego with my humble rig? More like a lesson in humiltiy than ego.
While you're being so technical please explain how an 8" soundstages better than a 3"? Please show me how the Fostex 8" has a smoother FR over 3-5K than, say a Jordan JX-92. Or even this $6.00 Dayton ND16FA-6 Compared to Fostex F200 F200 Please show me how the Fostex is better in the HF than the $6.00 Dayton tweeter.
If you need the sensitivity and impedance of near 16ohm. Lowthers are a good way to go. If you don't need both SEAS exotic is amazingly good. For lowther pm4a new cone sounded best to my ears.
Have to agree with JohnK on this one. I have both Fostex 126E and 206E speakers, and there is no way the 126E gives a better soundstage granted in my case the 206E is in a much more expensive cabinet but the 206E provides better delicacy, detail, soundstage, bass etc. The 126E is simply outclassed.
John, what is your opinion of Lowther drivers? I am sort of toying with the idea of trying an 8" Lowther (EX4), mostly due to its higher sensitivity and that I can obtain then with a nominal impedance of 15ohm.
Cdc just how many 8in full range designs have you've owned? And slapping a coating on a cheap driver doesn't make it better this kind of so call modded drivers will have reduced performance if one really understands transducer or cone design. Paying so much for a driver that's worse than stock is one of the big rip offs in audio today. More weight on cone might lower bass but would reduce treble, midrange, reduce peak SPL ,driver is now slower. These mods dont address the cheap stamped frames, cheap surrounds, cheap magnets, small cone area that fe126e sports. After all f200a has a massive powerful alnico magnet a milled basket as good as they can get, goes stamped or plastic= cheap, cast or injected metal basket= better, milled from solid block at massive cost but much more stable = the best type, also f200a has far more advanced cone material over fe126e And since its 8in can play much louder and lower, fe126e hits break up far before any 8in, trebles far better on f200a if used with no filter proper cabs, than fe126e. Most any loudspeaker manufacturer or designer can have a transducer company proper mod drivers or build driver as complete custom. Average DIY types using coatings on cheap drivers than pricing such up. Is almost as bad as the polished rocks and magic clocks.. Better to buy a more costly original equipment driver than let any self proclaimed expert muck one up so. So CDC a c37 or enabled 4 1/2in better than f200a, SEAS exotic, PHY ,fe208e sigma fe168e sigma. AER Lowther ya right I got some swamp land for you enabled guys its c37 treated. Ever priced a c37 treated Lowther talk about no resale value. And if such tweaks do make drivers so much better than anything else Fostex or anyone else offers don't you think the transducer designers who brought you banana pulp hyperbolic perabaloadal cones hd surrounds t500amk2,triple Alnico mag t90aex,w300a2, w400a 2, fe206esr or yes even the lowly fe126e would know that a bit of old c37 would so greatly improve fe126e besting all there work....This modded drivers just a way for a schmuck to make a buck...A way for manufactures to offer cheaper drivers while telling everyone there fe126e is so much better than anyone elses thus the cost. And the f200a sounded poor because of its notch filter....You may take this as a attack but its honest advice. I design with most all full ranges as well as many other transducers. c37 been around a long time guys been treating cones for the worse since the 60s. Nothing new. Ive built 6 designs for fe126e alone. And yes Ive heard enabled thus my post. And the wee 4 1/2in do 1 thing better than the larger full ranges of quality they cost far less so if you paid more for c37 you got took. Many who can not afford the good stuff delude themselves into thinking what they purchased is better. Good for the ego but bad for others when this wrong info gets passed about as fact. Face it when most hear wee 4 1/2in full range loudspeakers they dont like them why most of the posts saying full range performance is weak no bass or treble can only play simple music at low volumes are from folks who experienced the small wide bands. I do disagree with them a fe126e can make for a wonderful loudspeaker in its price range. But its not the ford escort that bests the Mercedes super car. Would be great for all in this hobbie if this was true but its not and just saying its true doesn't make it so.
I can't comment on the sound quality of 4" cones, I do own though Fostex 6" FE168Sigmas in BLH, as well as the 8" F200a. As I listen to both every day, the F200a is way way better than the 6".IMHO.
The F200 by Bob Brines that I heard was very rough in the H-F and also required notch filter for nasty breakup. Any cheap $5.00 tweeter would beat it, IMHO. I would need more clarity to understand how every 4 inch is worse than any 8 inch, except for bass and dynamics, of course. Take a good 4", use it in a small room, treated with C37 and EnABL'd and you have something very close to "audiophile" quality bass flat into the 40's. Again IMHO. Plus much better dispersion and soundstage than any eight inch. Horses for courses I guess.
The 4in are not even close to quality 8in drivers in performance. If they where I wouldnt offer a 8in full range only 4in. The 4in drivers are very limiting the 8in like lowther pm4a dx4 SEAS exotic Fostex f200a fe208esigma, PHY etc all are far far better than any 4in;) And Gawdbless I was the 1st to offer f200a loudspeakers. I worked hard to keep fostex from discontinuing f120a f200a. For 6 years I imported almost all the f200a that came to US. Still offer f200a as a custom built. But the new SEAS drivers a good step up from f200a so this is the 8in full range I offer now.
'Brines Acoustics' use the Fostex 8" F200a (as well as other cones) in his SD speakers. The F200a is a seriously good cone. The prices are very reasonable. You can buy them fully made or in kit form. I would like to hear a pair of his speakers.
Mariusz - he is my countryman as well but he operates in Massachusetts and it is not walking distance from where I am. I will take you on this offer - didn't you say 75% discount?
I have met Andrzej (Andrew) Lipinski (my Countryman,but away) and truely admired his enthusiasm. His experience is oriented more about the accuracity and studio application though. If you like his speakers.......just ask. I might be able to present you with an offer you won't be able to refuse.
But seriously, Lowther drivers are in fact very, very expensive. Are they worth the extra money, I will leave it to you.
Double horn design (just like CarderSound) will work with these drivers as well. You might have to "tweak" the box a little but it can be done.
I would also like to find out if Lowther drivers could take this design even farther. However, from DIY-er point of view - keeping the value within the reasons is my main concern. If you decide to go DIY road, remember that Fostex as well as Lowther drivers keep their value on used market. Even the well desgn boxes could probably find a happy home in case you deside to move on in different direction. To be quite honest, I do not see the need to upgrade from Fostex to more expensive Lowthers. From what I have heard, you will be more then satisfy.
Atmasphere, thank you for your recommendations (it rings the bell) and I will look a little closer at those drivers.
I have heard a lot of positive comments about your horns too. A bit pricey but you get what you paid for....I guess.
So far no-one has mentioned PHY or Fertin, both from France. These drivers are arguably the cream of the crop in high efficiency 'full range' drivers. The PHY is featured in the Ocellia loudspeaker, one of the few that can really get down to 40Hz (but not cheap by any means). Tonian Labs imports PHY and uses them in their speakers as well.
Both drivers feature Alnico magnet structures, exotic diaphragm materials and substantial basket construction. Various means of high frequency extension are also available including a peizo tweeter that uses no crossover
Being available in 16 ohms (or more in the case of the Fertin) they can be easily driven by any amplifier technology, although the discerning listener will notice that amplifiers with a high output impedance will sound better on them (Better: smoother, more definition and more impact in the bass region).
Mariusz - I checked Lowther website and found that EX series speakers go as high as $2k a piece. Some of designs they show use 2 speakers per box = $8k in speakers alone (I like to have the best). One of the titles of their FAQ is "Why bass refleks is the best". Now I'm not sure I should trust them. According to Andrew Lipinski (Lipinski 707 is A class in Stereophile) bass refleks is th worst possible choice because of coloration.
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