Sound is better when I stand up?

@coppy777 Good point. When I had my listening room downstairs (see my virtual system), I placed section of 2x4s beneath each leg of my loveseat. It made all the difference

Tilting the speakers might also have worked…
But sometimes those chairs are a bit low, lifting them makes it easier to get up.

We have some noce mid century modern ones that a comfy, but feeling like one is a “dog with worms” being so close to the floor, and a bit of a knee killer getting out of.

@coppy777 Good point. When I had my listening room downstairs (see my virtual system), I placed section of 2x4s beneath each leg of my loveseat. It made all the difference

@holmz 

👍

holmz 

 

I think you have it… tilt that back a bit and it really improve the sound at the seated position. 

The chair does that already, the headgear is to replicate the chair when standing. And gets better and closer as the angels angles get steeper.

@holmz 

I think you have it… tilt that back a bit and it really improve the sound at the seated position. 

I know halloween is over, but this headgear should make the ”standing up sound”, and the “seated sound”… a bit more similar.

SIMAO. When you stand, you are changing the distance your ears are from the speakers, (less) the back wall (more) and the ceiling.  Yet sound wise, you like that position better.  Experiment with duplicating each of those new dimensions while sitting... one at a time.  The .83 thing is a starting point only.  It's not sacrosanct. Your room and speakers change everything so suggest you experiment freely from that beginning. Angling speakers down however, is seldom a good idea for well designed transducers.  Better to raise your seating position. 

Have fun and enjoy the music.

tom_guyette it would be the latter. It's plush and upholstered which means I'm definitely, according to your observations, getting some absorption mids and highs

Ah… no.
(He is saying the opposite.)

The sound hits your ears first.
Then it bounces back off the wingback and splashes back adding to the next wave(s) of sound coming directly to the ears from the speaker.

It should sound similar to standing with your back against the wall.

As the chair’s headrest becomes more and more plush and absorptive… it should become more and more like no headrest. And if it was a wood or leather headrest then it gets worse and worse becoming more like standing with the back against the wall

Just try the “back to the wall” and then try the chair.
And try the chair with a sheepskin or blanket on it. Or even a hard plastic cover.

There should be changes… I would think.

But plushness will not do much at all as the frequency gets lower, unless the headrest is like a transparent net. 

Those are my thoughts anyway. Compare to your situation, run some experiments changing the area behind your head with the wing back, and a sense of what's going on could become apparent. 

+1

@simao put something hard (remember hardness is a SURFACE characteristic,.does t necessarily mean rigid or even stuff) flat material behind your head in the wingback to see if it changes anything. Even office chair mat material for rolling on rugs would tell you something. 

Decent rule of thumb is if a material makes a click with you tap it with your nail, it's hard. 

@tom_guyette it would be the latter. It's plush and upholstered which means I'm definitely, according to your observations, getting some absorption mids and highs. 

Coming in late to the discussion, but regarding wanting to understand the wave patterns, if the wingback is made of stiff reflective material like leather, it would act as a high frequency reflector and you would get phase cancelation at high frequencies. If it's curved then it'll act as a concentrator (like a lens or satellite dish or a bowl behind your head).

If it's thick soft plush material, it would be an absorber for mids and highs and possibly even a bass trap. 

Those are my thoughts anyway. Compare to your situation, run some experiments changing the area behind your head with the wing ack, and a sense of what's going on could become apparent. 

Bar stool?

If one like films, then later in Jan in the PSFF, and that and their summer film festival are both good for film loving types.

We wing back, winged horses, and now a winged plane.
What is next? Paul McCartney and wings?

"Sticky Date Pudding".....

I've had a couple of those.....

Oh, Desserts....

That's Different. *LOL*

*G*  Ahh, @holmz , you've deduced yet again.... ;)

I've no wingz on my chairs, but parametrics I've got plenty....

An arse aside, my spouse was bemused by how bovines got tested for pregnancy..."You're kidding....?!"  (Cousin involved in that sort of activity noted the glove of the vet....).

Personally (do I have other? Nayyy..), my Walsh sound better here in my orifice if I stand....but they exist on a shelf above my desk, so I have to rise to the occasion to enjoy the higher things in life, living, and the pursuit of....

WNC is slated for 19 F tonight....not yet, but about daybreak, maybe...

As soon as wingbacks were mentioned, I thought as much.  Fabric choice could be a factor, but even leather (or pleather) could still muddy the mix.

Should be nice in VB, but advise 'layers' in clothing....NWS predicts 'yo-yo' temps and that may persist....

Spouse and self are bailing out Xmaz & NewYrs. for SoCal, the world of 2 seasons I left behind long ago...go hang with the familia, spouse wants Rose Parade IRL, Hollyweird, and Palmed Strings in a 2 weak speed tour....

I get to brush up on my combat traffic chops....*L*

All crickets, all the time.

Especially at this time of year there is a famous Aussie dessert that usually starts to make an appearance.

https://www.food.com/recipe/sticky-date-pudding-with-caramel-sauce-40187

"It's Difficult Listening Hour, brought to you by the Sticky Wicket...."

It is “solution” @asvjerry - As in everyone chucking out multitudes of ideas to try and solve the problem. (Hence it is a shower of things and ideas in “solution space”.)
Maybe I should have said it is like playing pin the tail on the donkey? (Where we blindly take a stab at it?)
But I like analogies which paint a sort visual description, and i am a visual learner.

In any case I figured it was a head rest of sorts.
And certainly much easier than a new set of speakers that waver the sound opposite of the comb that the chair provides.

But in theory one could use a DSP and inverse comb the FR to make it flat in the chair… If the OP had a DAC with a parametric EQ it should be relatively easy to try… that would be a pretty cool thing to take a crack at IMO.

How is NC at this time of year?
The relatives will be going from near you, up to the VB area around thanksgiving.
Enjoy the fall.

....having severe trouble trying to disregard 'AG bukake'....it's not aligned with how I consider y'all.....

But...or, should I 'say'...butt....😏

@ebm Hey  - It gets the steps in...

There is so much truth to your statement @ebm. 

Stand up sit down its fun.

simao    

I note you have removed the toe-in.  This is the purist position.  If the production was classic then there was a spaced pair of dipole microphones in front of the musicians.  If you don't toe-in you are hearing what the mics heard.  If you toe-in, the image of the sound will be spread outwards. A 'hole' may appear in the centre.

Speaker toe-in and listening distance are of course related.  Less toe-in is has a similar effect to listening from further away…

I think that another school of thought is as the room get brighter in reflections, one may also chooser to toe them in.
Particularly if the speakers have a narrower radiation pattern.
If they are super wide, then the toe doesn’t matter at all.
But sometimes if they are bright, then toeing them out can reduce the direct SPL.

There is nothing seemingly pure or impure about it.
I thought it is like a tone control to tailor the speakers bespoke to the room the speakers are in.

Many reviewers like EXTREME TOE IN where the left speaker is aimed at your right shoulder and visa versa........It's an interesting sound...you should try it .

@simao    

I note you have removed the toe-in.  This is the purist position.  If the production was classic then there was a spaced pair of dipole microphones in front of the musicians.  If you don't toe-in you are hearing what the mics heard.  If you toe-in, the image of the sound will be spread outwards. A 'hole' may appear in the centre.

Speaker toe-in and listening distance are of course related.  Less toe-in is has a similar effect to listening from further away.

I do think you're making a mistake with the wingback.  If you like to rest your head perhaps a chair with a smaller headrest to the back of your head not impeding soundwaves' access to the ears.

Or listen with headphones?

Hi all!

Cool. Let's recap:

@audioman58 I did mention the brand - Reference 3A MM Gen 2. Stock tweeters; I have ceiling corner foam triangle baffles but am now considering some ceiling  hanging foam frames

@mbmi swivel chairs. Huh. Good point. 

@grauerbar You're right. I mean, how much listening do I do on my feet? I have no mantelpiece upon which to lean with my tumbler. 

@holmz Great picture of my wife's reaction whenever she sees a new piece of audio gear I hadn't told her about. 

@bigwave1 Yes, I can adjust my stands by adjusting the spike depth. Thank you for the suggestion. 

@avanti1960 I had the 3As toed in slightly and now have gone back to the recommended no toe in. That did make a positive difference in the sound. 

To those who mentioned the triangular distance, I have gone with something closer to 1-1.2 ratio, like @tomcarr ​​​​@clearthinker suggested. That helped, too. 

Can't give up the wingback, though. It's so comfortable. 

Your tweeters should be within 1-2 inches of your ears ,depending too what type f speakers, drivers, wave guides, compression drivers many variables.

the first thing you should mention is the speaker brand , and tweeter,driver type 

you have very low ceilings meaning very reflective unless you have ample room treatment .

Get a swivel barrel chair...and sit on a pillow.....Works for me.

My first thought was, if you like what you hear when you're sitting comfortably, legs crossed, or stretched out or whatever you do with them, cigar impedimenta easily to hand, and a little of what you fancy in your best crystal within reach, then, relax, enjoy the music, and . . . STOP STANDING UP!

Facetiousness aside, I think the effect is mostly one of difference. You're more used to the sound you hear when you're sitting down and so there is a novelty attached to what you hear standing up. I 've noticed that if I stand and walk toward my speakers it feels as if I'm walking into the music. This is a nice way of experiencing the holographic effect of a system, but I'm a lazy b**** and much prefer sitting comfortably.

Let’s review this:

you need the speakers custom tuned so that they sound brilliant when youre sitting down rather than standing up. Nothing to do with acoustics. Its the speaker crossovers need retuning

Notice the use of a chair without wings:

How close to the back wall do you have your speakers positioned.  I moved mine forward and it was a game changer.

@Samao

i had Ref 3A GV’s for years. Tosh Goka always advocated fine tuning of the front baffle with the adjustable feet. Can’t tell if you have stands that provide that ability. 

@Samao

i had Ref 3A GV’s for years. Tosh Goka always advocated fine tuning of the front baffle with the adjustable feet. Can’t tell if you have stands provide that ability. 

Great advice so far. Chair not higher than shoulders. Tweeter at ear level. I think your distance ratio is prob ok. I’ve read tweeter to tweeter is 1 and tweeter to ear should be 1.2. This ratio works for me. Good luck!

Ron 

The Ref angled baffle as others mentioned points the drivers upward.  This is by design for phase and response.    When standing your ears are more on axis and you hear more midrange and treble and less floor reflected bass.  

Not every speaker sounds its best with the .83 ratio.  Before doing anything  else I suggest experimenting with speaker positioning.  Tape mark your current positions then move them closer to you and further from the wall, as much as reasonably possible.  Keep them at the same width apart and experiment with toe angle to adjust for imaging and smoothest response.  If the sound is too thin you can move them closer together and re adjust toe angle.  

I actually prefer the sound of a wider stance for the speakers as learned when I had audio note speakers, makes for a bigger sound stage and more open spacious sound.  my speakers are 26 inches more apart than the .83 ratio would like but the sound is better. 

Again, pull them away from the wall, keep them wide and adjust toe angle for best response and imaging, ranging from aiming to a point 3 feet in front of you and progressively outward until it sounds best. 

I think you will be pleased without spending a penny.  

It's the tall chair back and wings continuing behind your head - and ears.

Choose a chair that doesn't extend higher than your shoulders so your ears are directly exposed to all room boundaries.

And don't worry about that 8'3" equilateral triangle others are harping on about.  Your present distance of 10' from the speakers is fine if you like the sound and image there.  You could try moving a little closer and see if you prefer.  I sit a bit further away than the distance between the speakers and I prefer the sound staging there.

 

holmz Ahhhh. Haven’t joined Audiogon and bukake in quite some time. Thanks for the reminder.

I cannot think of a better term for loads of advice thrown out in a seemingly random fashion, mostly to make the person offering advice to feel good, rather than helping the person who asked the question.

So - the culprit was my wingback! The two wings and its low seating profile managed to smear the sound. On the advice from @elliottbnewcombjr I temporarily replaced the wingback with a straightback that also seated higher and it made all the difference -- sounstage opened up; instrumentation much more 3D than before.

Which sucks as my wingback is really comfortable! I put four sections of 2x4 beneath each leg to get equal with the tweeters, but that helped only so much.

Still, this will be a cheaper solution than almost any audio addition I can think of!

I would love to see a visual map of the soundwaves and how the wingback blocked or did something else to them.

It is probably 3-4” inches from the back of the headrest to the ears, so the reflection will be 180 degrees out for a 1’ wavelength (~1000 Hz), and there will be risings modes up and down at the harmonics. That is about 0.5 milliseconds of delay.

It is called a comb filter.

A fluffy towel on the headrest should help a bit. But a shorter chair back is better.

In addition to your chair, your ceiling height is very low. You could need some treatment on the ceiling. Possibly standing up, you are eliminating some reflections that are apparent when you sit down.

Switch out the wingback chair with an office or kitchen chair for a test and see what the difference is. Oh and If your speakers are 8’3” apart, your ears should be about 8’3” from the speakers.

All the best.

@holmz Ahhhh. Haven’t joined Audiogon and bukake in quite some time. Thanks for the reminder.

So - the culprit was my wingback! The two wings and its low seating profile managed to smear the sound. On the advice from @elliottbnewcombjr I temporarily replaced the wingback with a straightback that also seated higher and it made all the difference -- sounstage opened up; instrumentation much more 3D than before. 

Which sucks as my wingback is really comfortable! I put four sections of 2x4 beneath each leg to get equal with the tweeters, but that helped only so much.

Still, this will be a cheaper solution than almost any audio addition I can think of!

I would love to see a visual map of the soundwaves and how the wingback blocked or did something else to them. 

Why is this? No matter my listening room (large basement with 7 1/2 foot ceilings or small office with 8’ ceilings), the sound is more open and more spacious when I stand up from my listening chair. When I sit, the sound compresses a bit. Sitting, the tweeters are about 5-6" above my ear level. Should I angle the speakers down?

My chair is at the apex of the .83 ratio Jim Smith suggests for getting better sound. I'm about 3' from the back wall and my standmount speakers are 3' from the front wall. 

What acoustics are responsible for this?

Well @simao we have “solution bukake” (SB) where everyone is throwing out an answer as the solution to the problem…

You probably want a UMIK and REW to do some measurements.

On the “other hand”, your ears hear it, so you need to determine if it is the speakers throwing a high pattern, or a cancelation from the chair, or something else.

Salmon Rushdie’s winged horse in his book “Satanic Verses”, attracted a fatwa against him.
I would bet your winged chair is attack against the ears, but I could be wrong.

Reference 3a MM Gen 2. has angled Baffle. No doubt sound is better at height. Put a sharp beam torch/laser light on speaker top(tweeter position) so it directs you, so that ears are matches the tweeter height.

Agree about the chair. Need one with nothing blocking the sound behind your ears. Also raising up the chair so yours ears are leveled with the tweeters would be ideal.

I've gotten better results with an equilateral triangle setup than the .83 ratio Jim Smith recommends. Also best results when tweeters are a little above seated ear height. YMMV.

I have found a very good tool to use when setting speakers up in a new or existing room is a pneumatic office chair, you can lower, raise and roll it around to check your settings although standing to sitting is not in the cards but once you hone things in tighter it would serve as a useful tool. Enjoy the music

I had a pair of speakers set up such that the tweeters were in line with my ears, yet I noticed similar experience as you had when standing. I found a Stereophile review of my speakers which stated that the tweeters measured better when higher than on-axis. I ended up raising my chair enough to better reveal higher freqs from the tweeter. So your speakers may have similar qualities.

I was talking about the electrical phase at different frequencies that are shared around the crossover region between the tweeters and woofers, not one speaker being wired out-of-phase to the amplifier.  It’s a common issue with multi-driver speakers.  

+1 jond.  With most speakers your ears should be at tweeter level to sound as spacious as intended.  Have you tried tilting the speakers towards you or raising your listening chair?

Have you treated your ceiling with acoustic panels yet?