Springs under turntable

Great work here on tuning these things. Definitely not a case of plop em down and all is well. Have tried half a dozen springs now, plus variations, all were much better in at least some ways but it takes some work to get the most out of them.

Rick did the hard work in the beginning figuring out what to use under the Moabs. He used math and physics but the rest of us can use what indranilsen is doing, seat of the ears, try and see.

The four Nobsound with 4 springs each under my turntable were under Round Things and above granite. Got the wild idea to flip two of them around, so from bottom up its granite, Round Thing, spring, Shelf. Lo and behold there was a nice improvement in midrange presence, treble extension, and a much greater sense of acoustic space!

Went back and sure enough the midrange was ever so slightly less clean and clear. So flipped the two back again. Then flipped a third, and finally a fourth. Was kind of afraid of getting too much top end or too lean bass but this never happened. Hate to say its like magic but it really is.

Maybe one of these younger people will come over and tell me its too much. I don’t know. Pretty sure my old ears top out at 12k, 15 maybe tops. But what I do hear, the ability to hear both the music and the acoustic space its in is just fantastic.

uberwaltz, when using just 2 its much more stable along the long axis between the two than crosswise. Each one by itself is quite wobbly. But try orienting them so they are all pointed to the center. That should be a lot more stable.

Unbelievable......

Simple change by going  to one rear pod with three springs in sort of offset to left to take into account the motor weight.
Two pods at front with two springs mounted crosswise as MC suggested which is fairly stable.

High end details?
Now in spades!
Some reduction in bass but it's generally much tighter all round.

So obviously was not compressing the pods enough.

Most interesting and entertaining.

@indranilsen

I got the delivery of Solid Tech Feet Of Silence footers this AM

Indranil, you said that you thought the performance to investment wasn't as good as you'd hoped. Perhaps the price is higher than we experience from China, Sweden and Scandinavia in general is more expensive for everything (yes I've been). However if they actually have the engineering down to a fine art, and they work as well as you claim, how much would you have had to pay to upgrade to the same level with the device you are "floating" on them?

To restate my question, how much money have they saved you to get the same level of quality sound if you hadn't as mahgister calls it, "embedded" with the feet of silence?

They scream out, I'm sexy and I know it.. Well I don't know that, do you at least like the look of them?
Haha, congrats on your investment mate.

@uberwaltz,

" some reduction in bass but it's generally tighter all around"

Bass is such a personal thing it seems. I'm a person who really pays attention to it. When I evaluate it in my system, I try to remember my live experiences, which are most always at a smaller venue.

We all have adjectives to describe it, but those are based on our on biases.

That's all....just food for thought.

Steve

Hello,
When you guys put spring based isolation devices or any such floating devices do you ensure that the turntable is absolutely leveled? I use a circular level at the center of the platter to level the table. Normally w/o any footer my turntable is 100% leveled but with the springs underneath the table the most I can get is the bubble stay inside the circle but not as leveled as before. Does that even matter?
Thanks.

Yes! IME, it matters greatly. With my latest wall decoupling system, I can actually hear if the tt gets off level. A wall system, no matter how great is dependent upon the expansion/contraction of the studs. I use a 10" Bosch level. A longer level will give a more accurate reading.

Generally, for a tt with a non-inverting bearing, one does a final level on the platter, on an inverting bearing, the final level is on the plinth.

Indran.
I had exactly the same when I put the pods underneath.
Fortunately the rack it is on has adjustment at bottom for leg height so was able to get the TT level again.
Just don't look at the rack.....lol.

@slaw 
Bass is probably one of the most personal details there is.
Everyone has their own idea of what is "right".

And that's all we can do, tune and tweak to our own satisfaction.

My meaning was that bass was reduced from previously where it was slightly overblown so it was a good thing.
Definitely a lot tighter all round in every aspect.
Pretty stoked for $33 so far!

Cool! I'm glad it's working out bro.

@rixthetrick- Good question on the money... If this technology which I don't think is a huge deal goes mass-market then these footers are not going to cost more than what Nobsound charges. But that will never be the case because there would always be a market in the audiophile community for every such product at every price point perhaps more than what I can even imagine. 
What would really help me and perhaps others in such spring based isolator products are
1. These springs could be self twisted or adjusted for leveling and also for calibrating the desired spring rate. Townshend says that they have this feature but I am not sure...
2. There should be an indicator, may be a mark on the body of the spring indicating the 97-98% load such that you can calibrate the load very easily and accurately
3. The design should allow absolutely free movement of the springs in any direction

If there is one design point of Solid Tech feet that wins hands-down over Nobsound it would be the free movement of the spring (in any direction) w/o twisting or deforming it under the load.

Thanks.

Yes, Solid Tech gives more freedom of movement in the radial and horizontal planes than the NobSound on their own. You can combine NobSound with Ingress cup and ball supported on a suitable platform ( slate in my case but may be system dependant, worth experimenting with different materials) for better performance. Solid Tech, Townshend Pods, Geoff Kaits springs or kids tyre inner tube under inflated all good options to try under the platform. The Ingress cup and roller balls give you a very high degree of radial and horizontal freedom but couple in the vertical plane thus needing a spring of some kind for vertical isolation. I get extremely good results with this relatively inexpensive set up. If you can afford to spend more then take a look at Stacore Platforms. For a complete ready made solution at a reasonable cost it’s hard to beat the Townshend platforms particularly for turntables or where you use very stiff and/or heavy cables which can influence the performance of the Ingress cup and ball isolators.

Note, that if using cup and ball isolators like Ingress, it is most important to set them up in a perfect equilateral triangle on plan for best results. In some cases you may need to support the cables with sky hooks for example in order that they don’t interfere with movement.

Indranilsen, exactly that is why you have to hang the mass from the springs vs placing the mass on the springs. This is what the Feet of Silence do and why they work so well. You ordered them just right for the lowest resonance Frequency and because of their design they are inherently stable. Great product. You can throw those Nobsound springs away. Bad design.
Rix, I build my own subs and have been through just about every permutation you can think of. Your opposing drivers (force cancelation) is a great way to go. But, as I said before it does not matter if you subs are spiked to the house or suspended. You can not keep the bass from getting to the house. Put on a 30 Hz test tone and walk around your house. Stuff in rooms on the far end of your house will be rattling. There is no way you can stop it all. IMHO spiking them to the floor is the best solution. Springing them will create a resonance peak unless you get the spring rate very high in which case you are doing nothing. You can not isolate your house from bass. 

You can throw those Nobsound springs away. Bad design

Bad design for subs? They work great on my very heavy turntable. The thread is about springs under tuntables. Not subs! So in that context, the Nobsound springs work well.

I would have to agree that I am pretty impressed with how well they seem to have worked under my 401.
And the large SQ change that was easily audible with just a simple spring configuration change.
Hard to complain at $33........
So many thanks indeed to Noromance for bringing this thread to the forum.

Same here. Good one. Thanks!

Noromance, bad design for anything. If you could get them down to the right resonance frequency they would wobble all over the place. People were also discussing the use of springs under subwoofers and I expressed my opinion that it is not a good thing to do.

As far as Bass is concerned, everyone should have a pair of good head phones. Forget about the image but focus on the sound and detail. This is the bass you should hear out of your system ideally. Using a record with an acoustic bass solo to compare is ideal. If you like pushing the lower frequencies louder as a matter of taste well, that is up to you but you will sacrifice some detail. 

Indranilsen, You have to level the turntable with a record on the platter and yes it always matters. Perhaps not as much with a pivoted arm as with a tangential tracker but still. You may also want to adjust the feet so they all bounce together if you can. Lock the tonearm in it's rest. Push the turntable down stretching all the springs to their limit and let go. The springs that bounce fastest are farthest away from the center of mass so move them a little closer to the center of the turntable. Try to adjust them so that they all bounce together at the same rate. The games we children play. 

I think that using prings under a turntable must be very delicate indeed.... And it is not the same at all than under speakers....

These nobsound MUST be adjusted near 1 % of optimal compression....For a turntable it is way much delicate and refine adjusment necessary even about the structural properties of springs themselves more than for speakers....

That explain some difficulties with springs under turntable....

Under my speakers they are fantastic at the express condition to be very adjusted.....You cannot do that in one or 2 trying....

Beware of much clarity in the sound....The first clue that all is OK come from a better timbre accuracy not clarity only.... I made this error the first listening, i concluded too early that all was ok.... I corrected the load a couple of times and when the tonal accuracy was there all was positive on all counts.... No trade-off....

@toetapaudio, @mijostyn, @mahgister- Thanks for your feedback. I will have to adjust the turntable feet height to make it 100% leveled. With springs underneath it sounds like another time-consuming adjustment work that I have to add to the mix....
I have worked with inner tubes, have the Ingress roller bearings to address the seismic vibration concern but what I have experienced is that it always comes down to this finer calibration/load adjustment factor which is very manual and very time consuming. You can easily spend hours without getting the desired results... I wish there are tools available in the market to complete this load adjustment step quickly and accurately. Yes I am familiar with Stacore platforms, another super expensive isolation solution but I doubt it comes with any load adjustment/calibration tool without which the total investment becomes worthless. Interestingly very few manufacturers talk about it let alone building it in their products.
I would love to get all my components isolated from the seismic vibration and I am ready to pay for a commercial solution but just not ready to make a huge investment yet spend hours in setting it up to get the maximum isolation.
What are your thoughts on this point?
Thanks.

My experience is the adjustment is less difficult with some choices of music you know very well...

Choose violins solo and in mass.... For higher frequencies...

Choose brass ensemble with tuba, trombone, trumpet and horn... for the bass level...

for example : Empire Brass playing Gabrielli

Human voice solo is useful indeed .....

Always adjust in relation to timbre accuracy never in relation to clarity only  or bass....

indranilson, you are certainly spending less than a MinuK platform which is no piece of cake to set up either. You have to move the turntable around on it to get it to balance right. Turntables never come with an arrow pointed at their center of mass.

There are racks like the Grand Prix Audio that isolate each shelf at a patently ridiculous price. IMHO, excepting the turntable, if you place all your equipment is separate enclosures isolating them from direct sound 
you are good to go. I do not like open racks. I prefer fully enclosed cabinets which are stiffer and easily damped. I do not put my equipment on display where it can collect dust. It is all hidden. Maybe I am just old fashioned 
 
The turntable being a vibration measurement device is another story. It has to be isolated from everything. I will never buy a turntable that is not suspended on an appropriate suspension.
The best thing to do is put your turntable in another room. Phono amps are now coming with balanced outputs that will make this much easier to do but most of us will not have that capability. 
The best way to shield the record, tonearm and cartridge from air born vibration is to cover the turntable during play, like putting ear muffs on.
My turntables have always sounded better with the dust cover down. The echo that you get with the dust cover up is an appealing euphoric distortion so, many are insistent that dust covers make things worse. Perhaps poorly designed ones do. But with my system people uniformly think it sounds better with the dust cover down.  

@mijostyn- Thanks for your such a thoughtful response. In my experience the isolation set-up process always is a precision job regardless of the component being a turntable or not and it takes a good amount of time. I would rather spend that time listening to the music... 
For me taking turntable to a different room would be a lot harder option and even then I have to isolate it to get the best performance. So I am exploring other options like isolation platforms, wall mounting etc. Currently I have a Clearaudio turntable and a Luxman phono amplifier. Going forward I would be likely getting a Acoustic Signature turntable which would be 3-4 times heavier than my current turntable. But that would happen only when I am able to get an isolation device, platform or footers, working to my satisfaction in my room. 
Thanks.

I have Elac Navis ARB-51 active speakers mounted on standard sand ballasted speaker stands.
The speakers are currently just "sitting' on the stands.
If I pursue  Nobsound spring isolation, I propose to use a granite platform supported by the isolators off a tiled concrete floor and rigidly fix the speakers to the stands , which are in turn spiked on the granite.
Are there any flaws in this set up?  
Thank You

Bobby1945, in that situation the springs are not isolating the speakers or the floor from anything. It is a concrete floor. The speakers should be solidly on the floor with the midrange drivers at ear level by whatever means looks best to you. It is almost a purely cosmetic decision. 

@mijostyn 

in that situation the springs are not isolating the speakers or the floor from anything

I am interested - please explain further since the springs would be between the speaker and the floor.

mitch2, The steel man argument for coupling is the speaker is vibrating and we want to hold it rigid to get the cleanest most dynamic signal for the greatest detail possible. So clamp it to the floor, especially if concrete, so it won’t move.

This works pretty good and in fact is what I did for years until learning it really doesn’t work that way after all. The speaker does vibrate, and no matter how massive or rigid so does the floor. It would have to, since otherwise if it didn’t move at all then all the energy from the speaker would reflect right back up the way all waves do. So the speaker is gonna vibrate no matter what. The question is how much and in what way.

Putting the speaker on springs allows the speaker to vibrate more freely and more independently from the floor. Nothing is ever truly isolated but this is a lot closer to isolated than coupled. As such a small amount of sonic energy is lost to the speaker moving more because its not supported so rigidly. But also it is moving a lot less because it is now decoupled from the floor. Even a concrete floor still vibrates, just at a different frequency and amplitude than wood. Speakers on springs excite the floor much less. Equally important, floor vibrations affect the speaker much less.

It hard to argue one over the other, but real easy to demonstrate in practice. The easiest way is to get the Nobsound springs off eBay for $35. These are adjustable for load to work under just about any speaker or component. Or you could buy some plain old springs for even less. Then try them and see.

When I did this it was pretty surprising just how much better springs are even compared to very good Cones. The proof of how they work is when used under subs. Putting them under subs not only improved the bass, it had equally as big an effect on midrange. How? Subs put out zero midrange. But subs energize the floor, the floor vibrates, vibrations reach the other components. The ear is much more sensitive to midrange details than bass. So putting springs under the subs cleaned up the midrange.

The difference is easy and obvious to hear. Try it and see.

@millercarbon- The debate between coupling i.e cones and isolation i.e spring/air/magnet/etc as an effective vibration measure will perhaps continue for ever. However I have moved from using Mapleshade brass cones under every component to spring/air isolation and couldn't be happier. Beside the positive impact what I love the most here is the consistency of these tools. They all sound very similar if not the same every-time I use them under any component, unlike brass footers.
Thanks.

@millercarbon , I started my spring journey a couple of weeks ago and now have most of my system on various springs.  I have experimented with different sizes and stiffness of individual springs instead of going the Nobsound route.  Although, it didn't always turn out as I envisioned with regards to which springs worked best with which components and speakers, I now have two heavy monoblocks, two heavy subs, and my two heavy main speakers all on appropriately sized springs, as well as most of my front end electronic components (but I need another set of low load springs to finish with my entire system).  I hear the sonic changes/improvements that you described in your post below, which is why I am curious about the comment by @mijostyn .

Pretty sure Mike hasn't tried it. Huge amount of debate evaporates the instant things go from being talked about to tried.

indrenilsen and mitch2,
Rubber bands under cables work about as well as springs under components. I stretched a rubber band around a Cable Elevator so the cable sits on the rubber band. Its hard get a good camera angle to show this but that's what's going on here. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Tried first under speaker cables, then power cords and interconnects. Was expecting improvement under speaker cables and was not disappointed. Wasn't expecting nearly so much under power cords and interconnect and so was surprised when it was just about equally effective.

Everyone has rubber bands just sitting around. Give em a try and see.

@millercarbon- Great idea and very easy to implement. I would try and report back the result.
Thanks.

Mitch, if you hear a difference you are blessed. Set up your system any way you want. 

Millercarbon, I have done that experiment with a tube phono stage, an oscilloscope and a test record. There was no difference to either my ears or the oscilloscope trace at any frequency. As for my speakers? My subs weight 250 lb each and I have 4 of them. My speakers are 7"11" tall and my ceiling is 8" so putting anything under them is a non starter. The subs are so heavy and stiff that they do not vibrate. I have Vinyl and CD sets on display right on top of them.  Trying to isolate a subwoofer is beyond silliness. When bass is produced by a powerful system capable of going flat down to 18 Hz the entire house vibrates isolated or not. Put on a 30 Hz test tone and turn up the volume. If you have a decent system everything in the house will start buzzing. Any movement of the subwoofer itself creates distortion. Mine don't move because they are so heavy and they are spiked to the floor. The stuff on top of them doesn't even move including my Mo Fi Beatles set. But turn em up and the entire house buzzes. If you think you hear an improvement in your bass by putting your speakers on springs it is purely psychological or perhaps your speakers sound better just because they are up higher. So get yourself a nice looking set of speaker stands. But, subwoofers to perform their best need to be right on the floor up against a wall or in a corner. They gain up to 6 dB in efficiency this way and eliminate the first reflection entirely, improving bass throughout the room. 

Millercarbon, with all the neat improvements you have made you must have one heck of a system. 

indranil,
another way you could try is to get the number of springs you have (hoping four?) under a heavy shelf, larger than the base of the TT you are using. Get the shelf completely horizontal, buy starting from the furthest edges of the shelf that will accommodate the leveling, moving the springs to suit under the shelf, creating the broadest sprung base. Now find where the TT with a record in it will sit on your shelf where that position will make the entire shelf and TT horizontal. Hopefully the center of gravity off the TT will align with the centre of gravity of the shelf in a vertical alignment.

millercarbon - now you can see why Townshend calls it seismic isolation!
I am glad you were willing to try it, to discover it for yourself.

And the springs on your wooden floors might be about the same as suspending the cables, have you shored up, or propped up under your floor where the springs are yet? Because if you have not, I wager money on it, there's more in store for you yet.

...have you shored up, or propped up under your floor where the springs are yet?

A room on a suspended floor versus a concrete floor can only throw up so many issues around vibration and resonance, I can't imagine how I'd go about trying to fix all of them! Starting from a concrete room allows me get past all of that. Consequently, my system is very responsive to small changes and tweaks. 

@noromance- That is very true for a concrete floor...While it doesn't absorb all the seismic vibration issues but it allows these tools to work optimally relatively easily. You are one of the lucky folks to have the advantage of a concrete floor and can focus more on the music....
Thanks.

Actually all concrete does is alter, not eliminate, vibration. 

I'll get around to shoring up under things. Its on the list. But its a long list. Still need to finish the Spring Thing, add springs under the rest of the subs, and amps, and suspend a few more things.  

For now my system sounds so freaking insanely good its hard to do anything but just listen and try not to gape and drool.

@mitch2- I saw the pictures of the springs that you are using. Quite impressive!!! Where did you get the end caps and also the rubber cover for those springs? I wanted to use it for my springs and appreciate your feedback/help.
Thanks.

I like the modular design. Springs can be used with/without the bellows and end caps. Curious if you tried them different ways?

@millercarbon- I haven't used springs with any end caps or jackets. Those items add damping to the springs and sometimes it could be a good thing if the springs are very bouncy which adds a little ringing to the sound. But too much of damping is bad for isolation and also for the sound.
That is the reason why I don't use the black rubber mat on the Nobsound aluminum disc. In my system using Nobsound w/o rubber mats produces much open/better sound.
I wanted the jacket because my springs are all softer springs with a very low spring rate. Some of them are wobbly enough to cause twisting/deformation under the load. If the spring movement is not free then that works as a damping factor and I wanted to have the jacket to eliminate it to whatever extent possible and measure the performance.
Thanks

You're welcome. And good to know. But I was talking about the spring setup mitch2 is using on his system page.

Try combining NobSound, FOS or MD springs with Ingress cup and rollers to obtain greater freedom of movement in the radial and horizontal planes. You may have to use a transitional platform of a suitable material between the two different components in order to get stability. I have found slate to be good but there may be other materials that work in your system. 

The only thing a concrete floor does not isolate you from is an earthquake. None of our systems have enough power to move something as heavy and stiff as a concrete floor not to mention it is sitting on compacted stone dust. 
Millercarbon, glue an accelerometer to you garage floor and record its output while you start up your car, rev the engine and drive in and out. Please tell us what you get!
What I see here is a lot of wishful thinking without any science to back it up.  

Mijo
To be fair we could be talking about two different types of concrete floor here.

You have the solid concrete floor like mine that is sitting on bedrock stones, dirt, whatever etc.
Then you have the concrete floor that is a platform so to speak and is suspended.
See link just as a FYI.

https://thermohouse.co.uk/blog/suspended-floors/

You will get two different results from the two different types of concrete floor.

Actually all concrete does is alter, not eliminate, vibration.

First up, my concrete is a fully sunken basement. Dead as a mountain. It’s not a suspended concrete/rebar floor where I can imagine some vibrations. However, there is NO comparison with my basement and a suspended wooden floor and more importantly, wood/sheetrock walls.

Millercarbon, glue an accelerometer to you garage floor and record its output while you start up your car, rev the engine and drive in and out. Please tell us what you get!

what you get is a vehicle suspended on... wait for it...springs! And tires, with rubberized engine mounts (some are even active), and you probably get almost no vibration?
Am I close?

Okay, I’ll admit I am being cheeky, please forgive me. I know, I know, smart alec post. Just shake your head an smile, I mean you no injury.

Perhaps try a block of wood (to protect the concrete) planted firmly on the concrete and give it a good tap with a hammer?

@toetapaudio- Are you using slate on top of the springs as a platform for the roller bearings which either support the component directly or through another shiny surface that allows the most free movement of the component?
Are you using marble on top of the Ingress roller bearings? If yes then did you face any ringing issues?
Thanks.

Right, that's the problem with concrete and stone, they ring. They are not inherently highly damped materials. What sounds great with a certain system at a certain level may not always sound so great as it gets better. With mine the problems with concrete and stone only started to sound like problems within the last couple of years. Before that it was like they were providing a solid foundation of impact and slam for bass and dynamics for midrange and treble. Then as things got better it gradually became more and more apparent the "contribution" they make is ringing. They add a certain hardness and glare. No getting around it. 

Concrete (and stone) being massive and stiff makes for a great platform or base on which to build. But they are not that great in and of themselves. Vibrations travel faster through hard high density materials like concrete than through soft low density materials like wood. That's just basic physics. So the fact concrete moves less at low frequencies really only makes the high transmission rate of higher frequencies all the more obvious. 

It just might not be obvious now. But it will be, if you go far enough. Then you will be ready for springs. They are so cheap and easy to do though its hard to see why anyone would want to wait.

Hi @indranilsen, our set up atm is Ingress cup and rollers set up in a equilateral triangle on plan, balls touching the equipment directly, bases sitting on 30mm thick black slate which are square on plan, with springs supporting the slate platforms. The springs sit on one of our toetapaudio designed maple Audio furniture which is supported on Ingress speaker type double cup and rollers in each corner, four sets in total.

One could try fixing Ingress rollers directly to top of NobSound or perhaps Feet of Silence springs (use industrial double sided perhaps for a quick test and then perhaps use Epoxy at a later stage. Mechanical fixings would also be possible). You need both rollers and springs imo for best results (see Barry Diament).I may experiment with NobSound and FOS in this way but Ingress are also developing a version which incorporates a spring which I’m hoping to test the prototypes soon. I also have some designs of my own which I might get made.

All this is really worth while. Makes a huge difference. Don’t even think of upgrading until you are on top of seismic isolation imo.

There is another type of isolation which I’m looking into which might be interesting. I’ll let you know.