Tekton Double Impacts
Charles, Even though the Zotl 40 is a very good amp, The 2a3 is even more convincing with better natural tone and timbre of instruments and voices and has just a wonderful midrange that isn't too much of a good thing like my Yamamoto is. I'm gonna save my Yamamoto for my smaller 2nd system and hunt for a speaker that is lean sounding in the mids and I think that will be a better match. I know that my DI's measure pretty flat with just a small bump up around 500hz,possibly other 300b amps would match better with the DI's for people that need more pwr. It's been a number of yrs since I owned a 2a3 amp and I guess I forgot how good they can be and with the DI's I do believe I've found a better match for at least 90% of the music I listen too excluding full orchestra. It just proves to me once again how darn easy the Di speaker is to drive and also how good the little LTA MZ2S preamp is also. I did change 300b tubes in my Yamamoto to the recommended Eml Xls and it does sound better overall than it ever has but it just has too much midrange bloom for my tastes. All I can say is Teajay is correct when he has stated numerous times that the low pwr 2a3 amp can rattle his walls and also sounds very good with all kinds of music. Kenny. |
Hi Kenny, Thank you for your listening impressions of these two very fine amplifiers. Teajay has very good ears and has heard many High quality components over the years. You’ve heard many good amplifiers over the years as well and have a sense of perspective. It’s not surprising that both of you hear virtually the same attributes with a good quality 2A3 SET. No doubt that the ZOTL M2Z is a definite asset to the overall sound. Kenny I’ve been told that the Yamamoto 300b SET has a warmer character than the Coincident Frankenstein MK II (more neutral in relative terms). We’ll see what transpires at Mac’s home later this week to hear his Double Impacts driven by the Frankensteins. . Charles |
Charles, Thank You for your valued perspective and I will be looking forward to read about Mac's and your outcome with your Frank's driving mac's DI's and using the MZ2S line stage .Should be quite interesting. I've read several different takes on the Yamamoto that I have and you are correct it's quite a warm amp even with the very quiet and neutral Siemens c3m driver tubes that the amp uses and without doing a complete circuit redesign I don't have any suitable substitute for that tube.Maybe a lively V-cap coupling cap might change it's character for the better. After talking to you and also reading several reviews on the Frank's I have no doubt that they sound very good and might be a good choice for me but I can't get past the chrome and I much prefer good ole basic black.But never say never right. There is a upincoming amp builder and his name is Aric Kimball and his website is Aric audio.com,I've been talking with him about building me a custom 2a3 amp that uses 6sn7 drivers and solid state rectification and also staying under 2k. Kenny. |
Thanks for the link to the tube amp site Kenny. Does he build point to point or with circuit boards? Like the amps and prices. Not a fan of circuit boards in tube amps and thus my question. His amps remind me of Dennis Had’s amps. Dennis builds his himself all point to point wired. Works of art! Second, Hammond output tranny? I have used them and they are OK, but.... SS rectification is a great way to go with your speakers. Typically SS rectification yields better bass performance. Always exceptions, but in general I have found SS rectification best in tube amps. Will your custom amp use different output trannys? |
Kenny, The stainless steel chassis of the Frankenstein is actually understated and elegant when seen in person, it isn’t gaudy at all in my opinion. The Aric Audio looks interesting and makes me wonder how it compares to the Triode Labs amplifier. I suspect that Aric can build you an excellent custom SET amplifier. The Double Impacts clearly allow you tremendous flexibility in amplifier selection. Charles |
Agree with Bill regarding point to point vs a circuit board and also the output transformer. Kenny get the best output transformer you can comfortably afford if you decide to go the custom route (I know you realize this). That choice can literally make or break the success of a truly special SET amplifier. Charles |
Bill, Good transformer suggestions. There are excellent Japanese choices available but they are quite costly. The Frankenstein uses Japanese double C core transformers and no question that they're excellent quality. No question either that they're the most expensive part in that amplifier as well. Charles |
Gentlemen, Thank's for all the good input, Aric definitely builds everything point to point with no circuit boards used at all. He has never built a 2a3 amp so we are talking about different options but still looking at a 2 k budget. I told him I definitely want a good strong pwr supply and SS rectified and would greatly prefer a 6sn7 for each side.I'm not sure which output transformers we may use yet but will have to be within the allotted budget.He also always uses good ceramic tube sockets and will also have adjustable feedback that may come in handy. He is also building a set amp making 25 watts per channel that uses the Kt-150 tube and that might be a option for folks that need more pwr. The James transformers,which I know are very good but are out of production are getting very pricey so Electra print may be a better option vs the hammonds.For this build I don't see any C core transformers that will meet budget either and I don't know yet what the primary Impedance of the output transformers will need to be. I do know that I want speaker outputs that have both 4 ohm and 8 ohm and would generally use the 4 ohm with the DI's. I tried the 8ohm taps from both of my tube amps and I got weaker bass but had higher Spl before soft clipping occurred and the 4 ohm taps just sounds much better. Kenny. |
Kenny, I have complete confidence that you will sort out all of the numerous details and have a terrific custom amplifier built that will mate superbly to the Double Impacts. You raised the issue of 4 ohm versus the 8 ohm tap for driving these speakers. This is my only reservation regarding my amplifier, the lack of 4 ohm speaker taps. Not sure how much of a compromise this may be. If it sounds good with the 8 ohm taps then I’d be convinced that the current Frankenstein models which have 4 ohm taps would be even better sounding with the Double Impacts. . We shall see shortly. Charles |
grannyring, Aric of Aric Audio is located in Springfield,Massachusetts. Charles, I don't know how much a compromise your Frank's with 8 ohm taps will be either but there is only one way to find out and that Offcourse is to try them as you know.If you guys want to you might bring that first watt sit2 and see how that does. Another thought in my amp comparisons is without question and even though my Zotl 40 is a great sounding amp It can't quite match the little consonance 2a3 in overall sonic purity. It's been a couple of yrs for me that I've had a Dht set in my system for any length of time and when listening to it I just get more involved and lost in the music and don't even think about putting my Audiophile hat on. There is just a lot can be said about set amps and their simple circuits and I do fully realize they aren't going to be for everyone especially folks that combine their systems into a Ht. You know I'm a highly technical kind of guy by nature and occupation but when I can forget all about that and turn my brain off in those aspects and just get involved in the music I think that means something great is happening without question. As much as I like talking about all of this gear that we buy it's still just a means to a end of the enjoyment of music playback in our homes. Kenny. |
Kenny, it is a new sound for you after a bit of time off from 2a3’s. If you were to listen to the 2a3 only for say two years and then pop in a more powerful OTL etc.., then you would be equally pleased and excited about what that new sonic flavor brings that you have been missing. It’s just the way it goes with great amps of different sonic flavors. Great OTLs, SET DHTs, PP EL34s, Class A SS, Class D, Hybrids ( I love these), all bring a slightly different sonic flavor that can certainly please us greatly for long periods of time. Make a change to a new amp and enjoy a whole new flavor with all of the freshness and excitement that goes with that. All our favorite music now delivers a slightly different experience, that if in our enjoyment zone, becomes a new musical high! The key is the new amp must be in our wheelhouse of musical enjoyment. Some have a smaller wheelhouse, while others have a very wide wheelhouse. Many fall in between. I have no doubt the 2a3 amp is fantastic, I owned two, but one cannot dismiss the role "new" plays to our ears with the above caveat. This is not true of women, or more specifically, our spouses. Only one best for life with no other options even looking good. 😀 |
Kenny, great summation and I couldn't agree with you more. The less analytical my mind is the more I enjoy the musical experience. It took me years to figure that out as I seemed to be always listening for some audiophile sound effect instead of becoming immersed in the music. I'm very much looking forward to Charles bringing his Frankensteins over to hear with my MZ2 and DI's.......I also look forward to getting his accessment of my system and ideas to improving it. Grannyring, so insightful and so true. I've found myself loving the sound of a new piece of equipment and either grew tired of the new sound or realized I preferred the previous piece of equipment afterall. And yes......the same doesn't apply to the wife ( just in case she's looking over my shoulder :) evolvist, I hear you. Even after listening to my DI's with the 1 watt MZ2 for the last 3 months it still boggles my mind how good it sounds. I've finally given up trying to figure it out and am enjoying the beautiful music it creates. Obviously there are limitations, it wouldn't suffice for large orchestral music or concert level rock concert listening but for up to mid 90 db sound levels it's amazing. And yes, very dynamic ( less dynamic at the top end of its output) with deep, tight bass. I have no idea how it does it. For me adding a 3.5 watt 2A3 SET will give me about 5 db more headroom and I'll be quite happy. I'm still going to set up a second SS system for HT and rocking out to though. |
grannyring, Very valid points and I couldn't agree more. evolvist, "It just amazes me that 3.5 WPC is driving the DIs. I can't get the concept out of my head. I still feel like that if a buy the 2a3 that it won't have enough headroom even for my small room. That's just my rational mind talking" I can understand exactly what you are questioning because I wandered about it to. I have probably used more different amps then most have with the DI's from the 1watt MZ2S,which is a lot of fun but not quite enough pwr,to the 700 watt ps audio mono's that I borrowed and I can tell you that in my 20x25x9 room that has a open kitchen on one side the 3 watt 2a3 will rattle the walls if needed and easily reach peaks of 98db at my listening position 10ft away and just sound marvelous doing so.When I had the Zu audio Druid v's and later the Definition 4's which are rated much higher efficiency the 3watts wasn't enough and a 845 tube set amp was a much better match. It just proves to me how easy the DI's are to drive and other speakers may have a higher efficiency rating but they are a tougher load for a Amp. Like I always say you may just have to try one out for yourself and see how you like something. Now if I use my 8watt Yamamoto 300b amp,it has enough pwr to be convincing playing full orchestra music very loudly but that's only 5% or less of the music I generally listen to. Mac, I hope that you and Charles have fun trying some different gear combinations and be sure and let us know how it works out. Kenny. |
I've been trying different Amps with the DI's and lately have been using SS amps even though I prefer tubes overall. A friend from our local audio club came by this morning and brought a 30 year old amp from a company that has been long out of business. He was one of the owners in fact. The 200 watt Mirror Image 1.1 SB power amp is class A A/B with class A for the first 30 watts and with the DI' I'm betting it never left class A as we listened this morning. I wasn't expecting anything to really beat the Bencemark ABH2 by much but this 30 year old amp is like us old men, don't underestimate us. I was floored how much this amp controlled the DI's. I have not heard this much tight bass out of the DI's until now. My friend David tells me good luck finding one on the used market as not that many were made to begin with and in the 80's it was one of the more expensive amp made at the time. My friend left the amp with me for a while so I will keep listening. Lance |
I've really enjoyed the recent posts. It quite amazing to consider the cumulative experience found on this thread. So many different (and valid) points have been made as we power our DI's in different ways. I don't know that I can recall a speaker that affords so many options in this regard. Lance, I just love what SS can do when it comes to iron-fisted control of bass fundamentals. I like the point made earlier that sometimes we are swept off our feet by something new in our lives, only to later realize that our true love was with us the whole time. So to test this thought, Corelli has some glass and steel comin' his way. Stay tuned. |
Congrats Corelli, please share your results when your new toy comes in. Youre so so right about the DI affording us so many amp options. I'm contemplating getting the Benchmark ABH2 along with the Triode Labs 2A3 SET to switch back and forth as my mood dictates. Eventually I could have one system consisting of the MZ2, 2A3 and DI SE's and the other with a good home theater processor/pre, the Benchmark ABH2 and the DI's. I could live with that! Good to hear you're enjoying your DI's so much porscheracer. That Pioneer M-22 looks like a nice amp. How hot does it run? |
Lance, Very nice to read about that old amp, I remember those from the mid 80's and they were quite popular with the high end crowd.I couldn't afford one though and I would imagine that nowadays most of them are in Asia somewhere. porscheracer, I'm glad you are liking that pioneer and I don't doubt it sounds better than your Vidar and you have found out for yourself that 30watts is huge pwr with a speaker like the DI's.I'm glad you found one that had been updated and ready to go. Kenny. |
Kenny, please let us know where you end up on the tube amp build. I would love to build a 2a3 amp just the way you are going about it. I would choose the same 6sn7 and SS rectification. Now I just need speakers that mate well with the 3 watts! That is a very cool aspect of the DI speaker. I would usually use my Lyndorf and sometimes put the 2a3 into service. Fun stuff! |
mac48025 The Pioneer M-22 runs quite hot. I can touch the heatsinks but I can't leave my hands on them for very long. The amp is 6" tall and I have it in an 8" space on my rack. The rack is open on all four sides so I think the ventilation's is fine with 2" of space above it. @kdude66 Yes, 30 watts of Class A power seems to be enough. I still have my doubts about 1 watt though! If I put my Freya preamp in JFET mode (tubes bypassed, no gain), I can crank the volume all the way up and it is not painful. It's louder than I would listen to, but not way too loud. The tube gain mode provides 14dB of gain. Vidar has 27dB of gain. I am not sure how much gain the M-22 has. I can't find that spec anywhere and I don't know how to measure it myself. The more I read about the Pioneer M-22, the more I find that it was considered one of the best amps of it's time and is still considered a phenomenal amp. Based on my experience with it and the DI's, I have to agree. There seems to be a nice synergy there. |
grannyring, Yes I will keep you updated with the 2a3 build and prices. porscheracer, If my memory is correct, The m22 has about 23db of voltage gain which is only 3db lwr than most SS amps at 26db.It's been a long time since I had mine. You probably will be just fine running it in your rack as long as all 4 sides are open.You should be able to touch the heatsinks for at least 5 seconds and not be too painful.It would be nice if you had more height than 2 inches if possible. The M22 has extremely low distortion and a very good signal to noise ratio of 106.Very impressive specs back in 1976.Being a pure class A push pull design it probably draws about 240 watts from the wall anytime it's on even with no music playing. Most of the original M22 and M25 amps found there way to Asia because they are highly collectible. I know we covered this 1 watt subject before,I find my MZ2S quite good sounding by itself with simple acoustic jazz and vocal music but It's not enough for really rocking out or full Orchestra music at realistic levels. I can say also that it's one heck of a great sounding headphone amp but I don't even own any and had to borrow a pair to find out. Probably at your loudest listening I doubt that you are using more than 8 to 10 watts with the M22 and your Di speakers. Enjoy that music, Kenny. |
Kdude66 8-27-2017Kenny, your memory is truly exceptional :-) Specs for the M-22 that are provided at HiFiEngine.com indicate 1 volt sensitivity and a power rating of 30 watts into 8 ohms. Those numbers correspond to a gain of 23.8 db! Also, the service manual (which can be viewed at HiFiEngine.com if one is registered there) indicates a power consumption of 280 watts, and "hum and noise" under certain specified conditions of -106 db! Best regards, -- Al |
Thanks for the info!! The M-22 has 23.8dB of gain. Really? Vidar has 27dB of gain. That makes sense based on how little I have to move the volume knob to match sound levels between the two amps. The interesting thing is that Vidar, even with the preamp off, outputs a noticeable hum in the speakers. The M-22 has zero hum when the preamp is off. I figured the gain was the issue. But the gain difference is not large enough. 3.2dB less would be quieter...but not enough quieter to eliminate the hum. I can only speculate that Vidar has an issue that the M-22 does not. |
I looked up the math so now I know how to calculate amp gain. All you need to know is watts, load resistance, and input sensitivity. Two formulas to solve and you are all done! Thanks! http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain |
Hello All, Aric of Aric Audio and I worked out the details of a custom SE 2a3 tube amp that will use a oversized pwr supply and Electra Print 15watt outputs so I will be able to get 8 to 10 watts using the new production JJ 2a3-40 tube and also use regular 2a3 tubes at the normal 3.5 watts. The JJ tube is capable of dissapating 40 watts and a normal 2a3 dissipates 25 watts. There is some older reviews of the JJ tube if you google for them. We came up with price slightly below $1800.00 with shipping and no tubes.Should be a very good sounding amp especially for the price. Kenny. |
Hi Kenny, Overbuilt power supply and a good quality output transformer, Kenny I knew you’d get it all sorted out 😊. I believe that you’ll have a very high quality 2A3 SET amplifier for an exceptionally reasonable price. What a wonderful match with your Double Impacts. Kenny you’re getting excellent sound with the Cyber 2A3 SET and I suspect that the Aric custom built amplifier will be a noticeable step upward. What will be your choice of coupling capacitors and what type of internal wire? You have the ears and experience to get this completely right. Charles |
Charles, Yes I think this is going to be a nice sounding little amp and will be versatile with tube changes and pwr outputs.The JJ 2a3-40 tube is very similar in physical size of a 300b and shares some of the same internal structure with different electrical requirements. We are using the Audyn Cap Plus as the coupling caps,these are very reasonable in price and Aric likes them for their natural and smooth sound.I will try them for awhile and then make that decision. I've used The Jupiter copper foils before and those might be better. He just uses standard copper hook up wiring internally and there may be some room for improvement there also. As mentioned before Aric only builds his amps and preamps point to point with no circuit boards. If I really like this amp,I may look into a build of Basically the same amps but in mono blocks that may utilize interstage transformers instead of coupling caps,not sure if that can be accomplished with the 2a3. Kenny. |
Hi Kenny, Thanks for the detailed reply, you are definitely on the right track. My 300b Frankenstein has interstage transformers as does my Coincident Statement Line Stage (101D tubes which are DHT). I can see no reason why your 2A3 which is also DHT could not use an interstage transformer as well. Going this route and with mono block construction sounds like a fabulous idea. Bill (Grannyring) could suggest some excellent choices for capacitors and wire, he has tried "many" over the years. Your Double Impacts are going to sing to the heavens 😊 Charles |
Great build Kenny. Tremendous pricing also. Those magical Duelund silver foil bypass caps in the coupling positions would do wonders with the fine Audyn caps. You know that already. I think he uses electrolytic caps in the power supply? Anyway to use film? Yes they take up more room and may not be possible. I love the Clarity TC line, but even Solen Fast Caps will sound better than electrolytics. This is an important area for consideration. Film caps in the power supply do make a difference. Not sure if the design uses bridge rectification? Regardless, using the low noise, fast recovery types adds very little to cost. Resistors also impact the sound. I really like the SHINKOH - Tantalum sold at Parts Connextion. They are beautiful sounding. Many DIY guys love them also. Well thought off. Fun stuff! Enjoy..... |
