Tekton Double Impacts

For those of you who are interested in the TDAI and it's 'sound,' take a look at Exogal and their Comet Plus - Ion combo.

porcheracer, When the TDAI-2170 is fed an analog signal, it does an A/D conversion and still does it's digital amp trick, PCM to PWM directly driving the output devices w/o any DAC involved. The Exogal combination of their Comet DAC and Ion amp make another digital amp competitor from the brains behind legendary Wadia.

David, Do you have any experience with Exogal or Lyngdorf units you mentioned? Please excuse if you already posted on this. 
Bill M

Just FYI... LTA is releasing upgraded Linerar power supplies for it's power amps similar to the upgrade available for the preamp. I know several of you are looking for tube amp solutions with the Tektons, so I thought I'd put that out there.

Both David and I have the Comet/Ion combo, fast, clean, clear, detailed, good 3Dstage, rich harmonics w/o being overly warm, neutral but not lean or sterile.

I am a owner of the Exogal /Ion combo as well . This combo has taken me off the merry-go-round . No point in schlepping in big heavy monoblocks anymore . Same with preamps and dacs . Don't feel the need to audition anything more . Spent 5 years of auditioning dozens of amps , pre , and dacs . Cannot wait to see what future products are coming from Exogal !

I'll guess a server or streamer, or combination of both?

I’m betting on a new DAC next from Exogal. Should be something as the current one is pretty darn good.

Dave

Would be nice to have a direct comparison. 

You guys should just skip all of the hassle and get the Linn KDS/3.

The input is straight off of any music server via ethernet cable, so you can say goodbye to any colorization from USB cables and any extra box between the source and a DAC. 

It is similar to the Lyngdorf in that it waits until the last possible moment to do the analog conversion. It runs through an FPGA, first, where it bests any up-sampling I have ever heard, even the Chord DAVE (and especially PS Audio), and some of the best R2R DACs I have heard in my home, like TotalDac, Metrum, and the Yggy.

Every internal process of the Linn KDS/3 is governed by its own power supply, unlike 99.9% of the other units out there (if there are some like the Linn, I don't know about it). The importance of these power supplies cannot be expressed enough. There is a large margin for error in any DAC that has a single power supply that runs every process. Artifacts can be introduced at every stage, depending on the complexity of the DAC's architecture, and let's face it, DACs are growing more complex by the minute. 

Finally, there is the pre-amp, which is akin to the Metrum Adagio pre-amp, in that the volume does not produce any distortion upon raising it. This is actually a rarity, and manufacturers won't publish spec on their pre-amps lest the user sees an aggravating rise in distortion.

Anyway, I'm in love with mine. I don't think I'll part with it. Y'all should look into one. Oh yes, and it comes with Linn's own room correction.

My DIs have been breaking in for almost 72 hours now. I haven't been doing any critical listening, because my room is on its way from crap-to-good, but I walk by and I hear things in songs that I've never heard before. The snare hits and cymbal decay is amazing.

evolvist, The KDs/3 is not a current product, and the Linn site doesn't show a single streamer/DAC with a power amp built in?

evolvist, The KDs/3 is not a current product, and the Linn site doesn't show a single streamer/DAC with a power amp built in?

https://www.linn.co.uk/hifi-separates/network-music-players/klimax#klimax-ds 

The breakdown is like this:

K = Klimax

DS = Digital Streamer

3 = Katalyst Engine

This came out in December 2016 as an upgrade to the DS/2. The Katalyst engine is what took the Linn to a new level. The difference between the DS/2 and the DS/3 is akin to the distance from Earth to Neptune. A totally different approach.

So, yeah, I can see why just looking up "KD/3" might cause some confusion. :-) 

Oh, and yeah, there's no amp in it. It's a streamer, DAC, and pre-amp combo.

OK, I see the nomenclature now, but it is nothing like the TDAI-2170 or Comet/Ion because it's just a DAC & preamp.

Well, no, it's more than just a DAC and pre-amp in that it's a streamer, as well. Moreover, it's quite possible that the DAC section alone kicks the hell out of just about anything put there, including the Lyngdorf by more than a few miles. I've had the Lyndorf in-house for an extended period of time. 

Hi Evolvist,
The Linn lacks an amplifier section so what power amplifier did you used in direct comparison to the Lyngdorf 2170 which has its own power amplifier section?

You comments are interesting and somewhat contrary to the near universal praise of the Lyngdorf by those who have heard it. I get the impression that Kenny is as impressed with the Lyngdorf 2170 as much as Grannyring is.

Obviously the power amplifier used with the Linn component exerts some degree of sonic influence. The Lyngdorf 2170 seems to be a fascinating audio product . Yet you find the Linn to be in your opinion "by more than a few miles" superior to the 2170 as a result of comparison in  your system. I acknowledge the subjectivity of it all but find this very interesting. I’m looking forward to reading Kenny’s more in depth Lyngdorf listening impressions.
Charles

@evolvist

I cannot find pricing for this Linn system. Can you tell me how much it would cost retail? Thanks

According to a recent TAS review the Linn Klimax DS lists at $23,375 in the USA, while providing only an ethernet input, and as noted above not incorporating a power amplifier. Various additional inputs are provided in the DSM version, at $27,500.

While I believe the Lyngdorf 2170 lists at about $4K to $5K depending on options, and provides a variety of inputs as well as power amp functionality.

Regards,
-- Al

Al,
Thanks for that additional information. At roughly 5x the cost the Linn "should" be sonically superior to the Lyngdorf or why on earth would anyone buy it. In terms of features it offers less (most notable its lack of an amplifier) but sometimes more expensive products are minimalist in design intentionally.

It’s really sound quality that’s the overwhelming criteria in an audio product comparison since they’re being purchased to listen to (presumably). Common sense tells me that not everyone will find the Linn better sounding than the Lyngdorf.

In fact there’s the possibility that an equal number or even a majority of listeners could prefer the Lyngdorf despite it being 1/5 the cost (and it is complete with an amplifier). As is always the case, listening encounters will determine which one is preferable to a given listener.
Charles

@charles1dad  

Charles, you are basing your predictions on a Null Set. Therefore, despite the praise from Bill and soon Kenny, the comparative doesn't apply.

These are two products that don't play on the same field...and I'm not qualifying either field as better or worse. And, PLEASE NOTE, I'm not saying they play in different leagues. : )

All we know is that a few members are impressed enough with the TDAI 2170 to give it prominence in their systems.

The only one who has done the comparison is @evolvist

I'm curious about his findings, especially since these two products are unlikely to be compared in one's system.

@lmswjm

As @klh007 mentioned in his post, I do own the Exogal Comet-Plus and Ion. It’s been out of system for some time now and I should bring it back in to get another read on it, especially with all of the other improvements upstream and downstream from this combination.

I recently, for a second time, seriously considered the TDAI 2170 due to it’s flexibility but I ended up deciding that a Pre/Pro was a better choice since I really wanted to build a full on HT system. I then considered the Lyngdorf MP-50 as an option but I wasn’t ready to spend that kind of money on a newly released product that was still buggy, at the time. Then the DIs came along and I abandoned HT to concentrate on 2Ch.

I had originally considered the TDAI 2170 after it was released. It is an extremely capable product and really deserves more press and exposure in the US market.

My reason for bringing Exogal up, a few posts ago, is because of their similarities: their "Very CLEAN" sound; a different and hard to explain (to my ears) "Black" / "no noise" background; and a lack of harshness. My point being that if one is considering Lyngdorf’s TDAI they should also be open to the Exogal Comet Plus - Ion combo.

There are a number of reviews on the Exogal Comet Plus, fewer on the Comet - Ion combo.

I’d start with Doug Schroeder’s reviews over at Dagogo since he continues to use Exogal in his system and for his reviews since.

For me, the TDAI is the better looking component and it offers more flexibility, albeit at a slightly higher street price.

Based on posts here at Audiogon, the Comet - Ion responds to cabling and isolation. Reach out to those posting in those threads for more information.

It would be helpful also if people would better describe the comparisons, instead of "destroys" or "miles better" than said product. That doesn’t do anything for me. Hopefully we can get more info?

+1 @aniwolfe   Agreed. Hopefully @evolvist will.

Hi David,
Not quite sure of your "the comparative doesn’t apply"
Evolvist just mentioned his personal comparison of the two products. You can compare "any" products if you have them available (as he apparently did). Yes, his is only "1" opinion but I find it interesting and worth a discussion.

You say they don’t play on the same field? By who’s or what standard is this determined? Price? This thread has demonstrated that price isn’t an always effective determinant. The Double Impacts have been preferred over considerably more expensive speakers by many posters on this thread.

Any audio products can be compared and judged by listening to them. Sound quality and music reproduction are what matters.
Charles

Gentleman,

I will be doing some serious bench measurements on proper calibrated test equipment that belongs to a local friend of mine and also doing a listening test on some vintage modded Klipsch Cornwalls in a small 12x16x9 ft room feeding a digital coax signal to the Lyngdorf 2170 from a vintage Marantz CD player.

I always judge any component by the sound but It’s sometimes very interesting to me to back up what I hear with some factual measurements of my own.

I did buy the 2170 and sent payment to the dealer on Monday and I’m still scratching my head with the highly pleasing sonics that I hear.

I will write a full review on this completely different technology in time.

Kenny.

Well Kenny, don't feel alone, I find myself scratching my head all the time when it comes to audio 🔉🤔 All too often products come along that simply defy logic. How can the DI's sound so good at their price? How can the little MZ2 do what it does? Sounds like the Lyngdorf raises similar questions. I'm very interested in hearing your appraisal of it. Seems like a slick and simple way to go.....a one box, no fuss system that sounds great. It sounds too good to be true! I'm scratching my head again 🤔

For now I'll be happy with my more traditional set up of the PS Audio transport, Concert Fidelity DAC,MZ2, Aric Audio Transcend SET KT 120 and DI's. My amp ships today! Should have my MZ back from LTA next week too....having the remote volume added and changing faceplate to silver. I have some new cables from Sablon and Silnote coming next week. I also have lots of great tubes on hand to roll. I'm locking myself in the listening room all next weekend!

Charles, once I get everything settled in here I'd love for you to come have another listen. I should be a lot closer to your wonderful sounding system. 

Hi Tom,
Thank you and I look forward to visiting again and listening to the new additions to your system. I know how good the Concert Fidelity DAC sounds and am very interested in hearing the Aric SEP amplifier. I'll bring along a few recordings I really enjoy and that you may possibly like as well. 
Charles 

Hi Kenny,
I suspect that the Lyngdorf sounds wonderful and eagerly await your review. I wish you lived nearby (like Tom) as I’d love to hear this very interesting component in your system.
Charles

Checking out the new Tekton  Se with Teajay
guys they are worth the wait. The are fantastic.

@aolprodj   That's great! Please share more....

They are going to be my last speaker purchase 

Aolprodj,

Are they your DI's? If so, congrats! I can't wait to hear yours, teajay's and/or Mikes comparison of the SE's to the DI's. What amp are you driving them with? So now your area has the Ulfbehrts, SE's and DI's.....nice.

Sounds good Charles, bring any CD's you like. You turned me on to some great music last time that I added to my collection. 

We are  at Ezra's house I only have the standard Di's.
I will leave the comments to teajay.

Double Impact SE - "The Eagle has Landed!"

Setup the very first pair of Double Impact SE speakers today!  Even on my own, I had the speakers unboxed and setup in about 30 minutes.  Out of the box, the paint quality is very nice and the best I have seen Tekton do to date.

The customer had some old sound craftsman amplifiers, which actually sounded pretty good on the DI-SE.  Then we tested with the Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL2 (and a whopping 1 watt of power) with great results!  We also tried using the MicroZOTL2 as a pre-amp with Consonance  2A3 amplifier which also sounded fantastic.

Eric and Tekton did it again with another winner!  For me they are exactly what I was hoping for...a more refined version of an already great speaker (DI).  Can't wait to get our pair!

Mike
Audio Archon - dealer

How close to the Ulfs are the SEs?

You comments are interesting and somewhat contrary to the near universal praise of the Lyngdorf by those who have heard it. I get the impression that Kenny is as impressed with the Lyngdorf 2170 as much as Grannyring is.

I don't believe my comments are somewhat contrary to the near universal praise of the Lyngdorf.

I, too, was impressed with the Lyngdorf. So much, in fact, that it competed with the might Chord DAVE. Indeed, that's when I began to question how much of Chord's sound quality was in the power of suggestion versus a "real" quantifiable judgement in SQ improvements.

However, there are different levels of heaven. If it weren't so then we wouldn't have nothing demarcating "this" from "that," or "that" from "this." The Linn just happens to be on a different level above anything else I've heard after considerable scrutiny. It has nothing to do with cost (though I'll admit that I didn't pay anywhere close to retail for the Linn).

My mention of the Linn KDS/3 was to add a little sauce to the discussion, whether readers think it's a real-world option or not. The fact is, in the audiophile world, the search for the last 1%-3% of SQ is again, using distance as an analogy, the greatest distance to traverse in our search for nirvana. It is within this far distant realm that the Linn lives, at to me that might or might not incur an acceptable cost to performance ratio. People spend much more in those last percentages on cables, cords, and magic hoodoo boxes.

That said, USB is dying - or at the very least it should be killed - for there really isn't a reason for digital streaming to go through a separate box to get to your main processor. It's a whole sub-industry that functions on antiquated technology: one that is flawed, and becoming divisive, not to mention the almost universal skimping on more robust/delicate internal power supply integration. Too many cookie-cutter products out there, which the Lyngdorf is not; nevertheless, short of HDMI as a transfer protocol (which isn’t galvanically isolated), the inputs are as standard as the rest of the “standards.” Galvanic isolation is also a must when you’re spending $5k-$6k on a unit.

I would say that the Lyngdorf is a smidge darkish, but only a tad. I attribute this to the Class D integration, which, in the Lyndorf’s case, a far sight better than too-bright signature of competing Class D like NAD. The effect is that it imparted a little warmth, which was very pleasing.

At the time, the Lyngdorf was driving my EggelstonWorks Andra IIs, in a very open room with lots of furniture, so the room correction worked its charm, though without being setup properly, it could also sound artificial. With a little work (though not much) I got the unit singing!

Also, at the time, the Lyngdorf’s competition was the Chord DAVE and the Metrum Adagio, both DACs using either the Benchmark AHB2 or the D-Sonic amp I had in at the time, to compare upper-echelon Class D.

In the end, the Lyngdorf was a great performer, and I went with the Chord DAVE, because at the time, admittedly, I bought into their business model, which I later found to be lacking, despite the excellent SQ. Could I have lived with the Lyngdorf? That’s tough, because I knew I was getting an ever so slightly skewed, though pleasing, performance. Then again, what isn’t skewed one way or another, for better or worse? Everything is colored, but for me, I try to whittle it down to the lesser of an evil in my evaluations.

Eventually, of course, I went with the Linn KDS/3 because it was the Chord DAVE + the Chord Blu2 in one unit, with the extreme benefit of having a direct ethernet input, Chord-like power supplies for every phase, to ensure signal integrity, and a pre-amp volume without degradation and/or added distortion when you goose the volume. Also, like I said above, although it doesn’t have an amp like the Lyngdorf, the principle is very similar, in that the signal has its final conversion right before the RCAs or XLRs, in affect keeping it digital until the last possible moment (the Lyngdorf might have the edge of this, though, even if it doesn’t matter for the above reasons, and more). Throw in the Linn room correction and periodic software updates, and those are added bonuses.

I don’t do benchmark tests, although I enjoy reading them, but I care about specs to a certain extent. I’m still learning (shouldn’t we all?), so I’m always fascinated by reading thoughts and feelings on other people’s gear. However, there had to come a time where I quite auditioning the latest flavors, bringing in $50k worth of MSB, dCS, and TotalDac to audition. My pockets aren’t that deep, and it’s a good thing, too, because lesser priced units like the DAVE, the Linn, the Lyngdorf, the Metrum, and the DEQX were “destroying” them, as they were “miles better,” the former units being priced for people with more money than sense.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the initial report.  Increased refinement? Just what I had suspected would be the case,  improving an already fine speaker. I'm curious to read Teajay’s comments on these speakers. 
Charles 

Hi Evolvist,
Thanks much for the additional insightful comments. I’m not disputing your comparison results at all, you’ve heard both and I’ve heard neither. What caught my attention/curiosity was the miles ahead analogy used.

It simply made me wonder what the Linn must sound like to create such a performance gulf between it and the highly regarded Lyngdorf. Your follow up post leads me to understand your perspective more clearly.  The Linn/Lyngdorf may be analogous to the Double Impact/Wilson Sasha comparison done earlier in this thread.  Vastly different price strata yet sonically competitive to some listeners.  You just never know until you actually listen. 
Charles

Hi Charles - I talked with Teajay after the audition...he will have some interesting and insightful things to report shortly!

Mike
Audio Archon - dealer

Thanks Mike,

i realize its it's too soon to fully evaluate the SE's but the initial reports are encouraging. Taking the already fine DI's to another level is no small feat and it's sounding like the SE's are going to fulfill our most wanton expectations. I foresee I good number of SE orders on the horizon and I just might be part of that purchasing flurry.......which means I'll be calling you soon Mike!

Tom

Evolvist, my thanks also for a most interesting post. It certainly sounds like you have an uncommon amount of experience comparing well regarded DACs.

In the case of the units you mentioned which provide DSP-based corrections (Linn, Lyngdorf, DEQX), that you found superior to much higher priced DACs, was that superiority contributed to by the corrections, or was it true even with the corrections disabled?

Also, which DEQX model were you using?

My questions are prompted pretty much just out of curiosity, as a (very happy) user of DEQX's current flagship model, the HDP-5.

Thanks again. Regards,
-- Al
 

i have been informed  that Eric is at RMAF with two rooms maybe we will get some unbiased opinions.

Hey Gentlemen,

Here's my "field report" based on about three hours of listening to the first pair of DI SI's at Ezra's house this afternoon.  Besides, Ezra the listening panel was composed of Mike (Audio Archon who unpacked and set them up), Alen (who first presented the DI's to the Chicago Audiophile Society), and Bob who has heard both the DI's & Ulf's and has great refined ears.

I heard the SI's being driven with a very good SS amplifier, the Micro-ZOTL as an Integrated, the Micro-ZOTL driving the Opera SET 2A3 amplifier, and a pair of Kronzilla tube reference amplifiers. 

1) The SI's take the "house sound" of the DI's to a qualitative higher level of finesse and sophistication.  This speaker offers the music even more effortlessly then the DI's.  From top to bottom it's more silky/smooth and allows you to relax into the music more easily.  It's just as "alive" and dynamic as the DI's, but smooth as butter.

2) The SI's have a more accurate bottom end without sounding "dry/analytical" and its integrated more fully with the the lower mid-range.

3) The SI's pull off the same "disappearing act" as the DI's and add even more precision in the location of the players in the sound-stage, along with the air/space between those players. 

The DI's sound slightly, and I mean slightly, "rough around the edges" compared to the SI's.

Some quotes from the listening panel:

Ezra- tell people on the Gon that the SI's "smoked my 70K Sonus Faber Lilium speakers in every way!

Alen- if I did not own the DI's or SI's I would spend the extra money on the SI's because they are better across the board with more "polish" and much better bass.  I still love my DI's there great, the SI's just take it to a higher level of performance.

Bob- What ever tiny little "edge/roughness" the DI's have is total gone! The SI's are lovely musical speakers that totally disappear and image as if they were tiny mini-monitors.

Mike- Yep, Eric pulled it off, all the virtues of the DI's with another level up of polish and elegance regarding tonality and ease of presentation.

I'm very lucky and spoiled that I have spent time with and reviewed all three of Eric's speakers except the SI's in the last six months.  So, I know what the next question will be for many of you. Well, how do the SI's compare to the Ulf's?

PLEASE NOTE THIS:  If you do not have a extremely large acoustic space or are willing to spend lot's of money on room treatments you would be wasting your $ because the SI's will out perform the Ulf's if you force them into a small acoustic space that the great majority of listeners have their systems in.  By all means if you can get the Ulf's at least 4 to 6 feet off the front wall, at least 3 to 4 feet off the side walls, and have at least a 12 to 20 foot or higher ceiling, the Ulf's take the performance level of the SI's to even a higher level! ( My review for hometheaterreview.com should go active next week for all the details why Eric's next model up is a killer speaker). Otherwise, take the money you save and put it into your upstream gear because just like the DI's the SI's are conduits that clearly pass what you are feeding them.     

Photo at Ezra's check aoprodj's in systems

Hi Teajay, 
Thank you very much for your listening impressions of the Double Impact SEs.  Ezra's comparison comment with regard to the SE versus the Sonus faber Lilum is quite bold to say the least given the 10x price ratio of the two.  

Teajay do you really agree with his assessment or is there perhaps a "bit" of hyperbole and exuberance involved? 😊
Charles 

Hey Charles,

Nope, Ezra's comment did not have one bit of hyperbole contained in it at all.  He has owned historically some of the most expensive and highly regarded speakers on the market (YG Acoustics, Magico, Van Schweikert) and I have heard all them in his system.  Not only did the SI's significantly out perform the Sonus Faber across the board, but with SI's in his system, this is the best overall sound I have ever heard in house. 

Wow...

Good stuff. Thanks Terry.

Great, now I'll just have to live my "edgy" DIs. Damn that mad scientist, Eric. :o) Kidding of course. I do love my DIs!

Teajay,
Thanks for your affirmative comments as they’re illuminating. This is what I was getting at in an earlier discussion today regarding the Linn and Lyngdorf cost ratio and performance. The High End market can "sometimes" be deceptive and contrarian with regard to cost,  prestige and pecking orders. Very tricky at times.
Charles

This is what I was getting at in an earlier discussion today regarding the Linn and Lyngdorf cost ratio and performance. The High End market can "sometimes" be deceptive and contrarian with regard to cost, prestige and pecking orders. Very tricky at times.

See, you were probably trying to get at this, by being polite, but you really didn't get to the you're-so-full-of-crap part. That's very tricky at time.

Here's the deal though, perhaps I'm thinking on a quantum level. We all pay a certain price of admission, whether we buy some junk DAC for $50 bucks, and call it the best, of a $50k DAC and call it a turd. One might get you a seat to watch the game, while the other probably puts you in a skyebox, meeting the cheerleaders, getting player autographs, and sipping something a bit better rated than Ripple.

I mean, you can drive a Pinto and call it a Cadillac, but you'd be wrong, even though in your mind you can imagine the Cadillac chassis around that Pinto engine. There are DACS like that, too.

The point is, again, that last 3%-1% is a real mother. That's where most of the bread is spent, or most of the fretting lives, over that list small bit of SQ. That was what I was getting at, and I'm saying it. Like the once you get down to a micro-cellular level, the distance between two subatomic particles might as well be relative to the distance between the earth and the moon.

That's it. I chose to buy my 2%-1% in one chunk, instead of spreading it out over various devices and such. That leaves 1% more for other junk like speaker stands, some snake oil, and the various audio tweaks I can't wait to not spend much more money on, lest I find the cost-to-performance ration too much to bear.

I

n the case of the units you mentioned which provide DSP-based corrections (Linn, Lyngdorf, DEQX), that you found superior to much higher priced DACs, was that superiority contributed to by the corrections, or was it true even with the corrections disabled?

Also, which DEQX model were you using?

The HDP-5. It belongs to a guy here in town, and he left me use it for a few weeks in exchange for the DAVE. I thought the DEQX was great, but was probably more reliant on correction over the other two. That doesn't mean "bad." The guy who owns the DEQX has that thing dialed in to perfection, in the smallest dedicated room I've ever been in with full sized speakers (Revel Salon IIs). It sounds like a recording studio in there. As you know, the DEQX has a learning curve and so much you can do with it. It's astounding. Plus, it was the first DAC I tinkered with that had an Ethernet input. When I heard the difference I knew I wanted one, or one like it. When I learned the science of going RJ45, then I knew that I could never go back to USB.

Back to the DIs, though: my pair has 123 hours on them now, and they are sitting on bare stone floors, still without spikes, and these already sound better in my room than any speakers I've had here.

No body pointed out, gracefully, that I kept referring to the DI SE's as the "SI's".  Well, of course I did not rename the speaker, but mistakenly got into the groove of using the wrong wording in the post regarding the field report on the SE's performance.  Sorry about that!

Ezra, the owner of the SE's called me twice since I left his house because he could not stop listening to his system because of his pleasure/amazement of what the music sounds like now through his new SE's!  It's pretty late here in the Chicago land area, but I would not be surprised if he's still listening with glee!