Tekton Double Impacts

I would like to call out Response Audio as someone who makes great tube pre amp/amp products with high quality parts at reasonable prices. Consider them as well.

Hi teajay and Tom,
The problem is that Jcarcopo already has an active preamplifier  (transistor) in the signal chain so he doesn’t need two active preamps in the same path.  A zero gain tube buffer could possibly be an option,  hard to say. 
Charles 

@teajay @mac48025 - I was just waiting for somebody to bring up Linear Tube Audio, again, for the umpteenth time 😂 lol.  It's obviously crossed my mind, how could it not the way people gush about their products on here?  I'd be a fool not to consider them considering the repeated high praise.  So okay,  it's on my list. I'm not hard to persuade, but more importantly I respect both of your opinions. They are also priced competitively which is great because I've hemorrhaged too much money this year on audio.  I have a lot tied up in Elrog/Emission Labs power tubes and various NOS tubes too.  I'm worse than a junkie with audio. 

@charles1dad - Zero gain tube buffer sounds interesting too.  I could always sell the Benchmark DAC2 HGC and get a standalone Benchmark DAC3, it's probably a wash on money, but I'm still thinking it has an op-amp gain stage and it still uses a volume control as its designed to be run source direct, but also through a preamp if one chooses. The HGC adds the additional inputs, but I'll check the non-hgc specs and see what's what.  Maybe I need to find a different dac? 

At least our addiction to audio is healthier than crack. At least that's my rationalization......and I'm sticking to it! Besides, I could stop buying audio gear any time I wanted. Really. I could. Well, after my new DAC, cd transport and amp get here I'll quit......until my next purchase ;)

I'm quite confident that the CEC TL 2N transport and Concert Fidelity DAC  040-BD will be my last source components I'll need to purchase and I'm hoping the Aric Audio Transcend SET KT 120 amp will be my end all amp, but the Frankensteins have set a high mark to match. I love the DI's but something tells me the DI SE's are in my future. Then I can hopefully stop buying components.....I know, highly unlikely!

@jcarcopo, perhaps try an Exogal Comet Plus DAC, FPGA and designed to be used as a direct drive to amps eliminating a preamp? Like James I found the DAC3 a little sterile. Maybe try a W4S STP-SE unity gain pre?Ifi makes a tube buffer as well.

@james_w514 & @klh007 - There's nothing notably harsh about my presentation with the Benchmark, but I could easily see you running it source direct to solid-state and having that experience considering my own experience with my tube amplifier.  Running through my Diavolo SET tube amp I think there's a reasonably good balancing act going on where my amplifier's euphonics are taming the Benchmark's sterility. The Diavolo SET is supposed to be pretty warm and rich sounding, but instead I hear a fairly neutral sound that's not clinical or harsh sounding, but it could use a tad more warmth and richness and I don't think that would be a bad thing either. Thanks for the suggestions and I will research them.

@mac48025 - May you find audio nirvana before you run out of money.  I'm curious how you like the Transcend SET and I want the DI SE as well pretty badly. 

I ordered a Don Sachs preamp today....

@james_514 I once tried a Pass Labs X250.5 with a pair of Thiel 2.4s and was warned by Pass that the combo probably would be a bit strident due to both components having a bit of upper-frequency glare.  That was true...  the XA series fixed that problem.   

@porscheracer  I believe, based on the rave owner feedback, that you are in for a treat and I hope it does what you are looking for a preamp to do in your system. What's the turnaround time for his product?

teajay

1,077 posts

09-23-2017 10:40am

1) To have the DI's only 18 inches off the front wall would almost certainly negate them being able to produce a deep sound-stage or what you called depth in the sound-stage layering. I ran this experiment many times and to get the sound-staging/layering you were missing takes at least three feet off the front wall.

 

The best way to get away from the front wall is to have zero front wall. I have a 13x12x8 room, but I recently found this neat workaround. The only rub is that you have to have the right room, and not many have.

I flipped my room to a 35 degree angle, which lead to each speaker being placed in front of two alcoves. The speakers ports, therefore, fire into emptiness...or, if one wants to be technical, the closest solid object to the rears of each speaker is 8 to 6 ft away.

Once you get away from hard right angles in the room (a sufficient enough cant), then the reflection points from each speaker do not misaligned from left to right and right to left in a room, bouncing off the walls at unnatural angles.

See a quick and dirty diagram of my room (It's not to scale).

https://imgur.com/LHaCBkh 

The result? It was actually scary. Even without any room treatment - as I've gutted the room in preparation for a dedicated setup - with the sound bouncing around like crazy, and with those crappy  Dynaudio 340s, with no front wall behind the speakers, the bass and mid-bass (lower mids) immediately snapped into place, as natural as can be.

So, obviously I wasn't hearing much depth and layering, due to the bare room with hard walls. The impact of this setup was nevertheless experienced. I take it that having reduced the front wall considerably, in addition to the side walls - because there are no room walls that are square with the sides of the speakers - having some treatment in the room should add that width and depth to a point where the front wall is less detrimental to the sound. 

Which dovetails into...

brotw

32 posts

09-24-2017 10:47am

Mac,

So true about having a room all to yourself. I can already imagine my wife's response to the room treatments.

Once the DI's arrive and treatments are placed, I'll check in with the results.

 Room treatment, you don't say? GIK?

I've been speaking with GIK and we have a rough plan for my room. However, since I don't have speakers (except for the $15k Audio Physic Speakers sitting in my garage with busted bass drivers), I really can't move forward with GIK. So, I'm very interested in your experience with room treatment.

I should be getting my DIs relatively soon.

Until then, I went ahead and purchased a DB/SPL meter, because I want to see where my hot spots in the room are. Of course you need speakers for that, too. But I'm getting there. The point is, I don't want to just blindly guess with mirrors and lasers to treat all the spots in the room that are giving me trouble.

james_w514

106 posts

09-25-2017 12:11pm

@jcarcopo

I was using the Benchmark DAC3 HGC direct to a Pass Labs X250.5 with the Double Impacts and the pairing was a bit too harsh. It had gobs of detail and great bass but it was unlistenable at times. Maybe it would be more manageable with a different amp.

Could it be that Benchmark simply makes bright DACs that masquerades as hi-def? That has certainly been my experience with Benchmark DACs, going back several generations, including the DAC3 HGC. They sound much like the Mytek offerings. At first it's like, "Wow, listen to all of the clarity!" Next, you find out that the DAC is just "EQed" that way, for lack of a better term.

It was certainly disappointing that my lower priced backup DAC (PS Audio Stellar) was a better match with my current gear. 

@david_ten 

Well, I certainly hope so! I don't normally buy products like a Don Sachs preamp without a proper listen. Especially when each one is custom made and essentially non-returnable. I bought the Double Impact speakers based on what I read here. I scoured the 'net looking for feedback on Don's preamp. I could nothing negative!

The lead time appears to be 12 weeks right now. I guess this will be a Christmas present to myself.

I received my Aric Audio custom built 2a3 Set amp last Friday and I've been able to listen too it in my main system with the MZ2S and DI speakers for a couple of days.
Aric built this amp with a oversized pwr supply and I wanted the low Imd single secondary 15 watt Electra Print output transformers.
I also wanted one 6sn7 a side as the driver for one 2a3 tube but when I got the amp I quickly realized that a 6sl7 was going to be a better match.

This amp was built in a standard Hammond case with a cage covering the tubes and the case was painted sapphire blue with a black case.Looking in the inside I could tell instantly of the quality in parts that were used and the very neat,tidy and attention to every detail workmanship that Aric put into this all point to point hand wired amplifier.

Most 2a3 amps generally make only 3.5 watts and Aric made this amp to be able to switch between regular 2a3 tubes and also use the new production JJ 2a3-40 tube which is capable of 8 watts a channel.

I beat you are wandering how this amp sounds by now so here you go.

I've been a big fan of 2a3 tube amps for a long time and I have owned a few when I had speakers that would match up.
This amp has just a incredible engaging sound that to my ears is just so natural in Tone,Texture,Harmonics,Liquidity,Meat on the bones midrange with outstanding clarity that gives me all the details I could ever want but they are presented in such a nature way with the ebb and flow of the music.

With 8 watts a channel I'm able to play 95% of the music that I listen too,Acoustic Jazz,Vocal Jazz,Pop,Classic Rock,to the low 90 db range at my listening position 10 ft away and still be in the "Sweet Spot" of output with this amp with no signs of strain or soft clipping.

I generally listen in the mid 80 Db range and I have found this amp to have plenty of headroom at these kind of volume levels.

This amp puts out a very satisfying bass response that would amaze most people,I'm not a big bass hound anyway and with most recordings I'm quite satisfied.If I play classic rock and want some extra slam I have 2 subs dialed in that I can turn on.
Now remember my woofers are'nt stock and I changed to different Eminence woofers several months ago.

All in all this amp represents a tremendous value for the high quality of sound that it gives me and if someone is looking for a tube preamp or tube amp I would definitely recommend that you give Aric Audio a call or Email.

This amp really shines with my "Benchmark" recordings of piano music of several types and acoustic guitar but other instruments and vocals sound mighty good also.😃

Kenny.

@kdude66 - Congrats Kenny! Seems like a very nice amp.
Why was the 6sl7 a better driver tube than a 6sn7? Does it have something to do with using the 2A3-40?

I'm trying to picture "This amp was built in a standard Hammond case with a cage covering the tubes and the case was painted sapphire blue with a black case" So it's a black Hammond case painted sapphire blue? Can you post some pictures of your overall system? 

Hey Kenny, I really appreciate the kind words on my build and am glad that you’re happy with your amp! Perhaps I can shed some light on the driver tube: My test preamplifier has up to 35 db of available gain (using 12AT7’s), and in my testing I found the 6SN7 would drive the 2A3 easily- with lots of headroom from my preamp’s volume control. In Kenny’s system, his preamp is configured for a lower gain structure that needed to be pushed higher for the same drive from the 6SN7. By substituting the 6SL7 (raising the gain of the driver), it allowed his lower gain preamp to reach the same overall drive available to the 2A3. Both the standard 2A3 and JJ 2A3-40 have the same input requirements. Aric

@kdude66 why did you change the DI Wilfred to eminence and which model did you chose? What was gained? Tighter bass response? Hmmm. Thank you Kenny!
greg

@kdude66  that was wolfer, not Wilfred ! Spell check. Argh!
greg

Thanks Aric.  The MZ2s needed more gain to properly drive the 2A3 so the 6SL7 was the better fit.  Makes sense. 

Hi Kenny,
It good to know that the Aric 2A3 SET meets your high expectations, electric print transformers was a very good choice. Do you prefer this amplifier to your LTA ZOTL 40?

It’s clear that you’re quite pleased with this amplifier and it makes music.
I am curious as to how you’ll judge it compared to your soon to arrive Lyngdorf 2170. Very interested in this comparison as to which one will evoke more musical emotional connection. You know,  the important stuff 😊.
Charles

I would never use a preamp with 35db of overall gain that's just throwing away signal IMO.

I generally like a preamp with about 10db of gain to make a better match with most pwr amps Tube or SS.My valvet soulshine has 18db and I found that to be too much,especially with higher sensitivity speakers.

I'm not really into posting system pics,the Hammond case is blue with the tube cage black.

The stock "Woofers" in the DI's are made by Eminence,I changed mine to a different model Eminence Woofer.
This has been posted several times before and I really don't want to repeat.

Kenny.

Charles,

I would say I definitely find the 2a3 amp more musically engaging and satisfying with the majority of the music I listen too then any other amp that I currently own.Zotl 40,Fw Sit 2 push pull,and the little consonance cyber 30 2a3,even though none of these are bad by any means.

It will be quite a interesting comparison between the Lyngdorf 2170 and the 2a3.That's about 80 yrs difference in technology's and It will most certainly come down to the amp that's the most musical in my system.

To do justice to this test I'm going to need to change up my digital front end so I have a short USB connection to input into the 2170 and experience it as the true one box solution as it's intended to be used.
I also will experiment with the room perfect correction and utilize this feature on and off.

This 2170 may have the ability to replace several components in my main system or It may find it's way back to the dealer.

Only one true way too find out.

Kenny.

Kenny,
Agree regarding the preamplifier gain issue, 35 db is far too much for virtually any audio system to utilize. You’d literally have no range of the volume control i.e. one click above the 8 o’clock V.C. knob and it’d be too loud even in systems with very inefficient speakers. My Line Stage has 10 dB of gain and that amount is ideal for me.

Kenny if the Aric 2A3 is "more" musical and engaging than the LTA ZOTL and your First Watt amplifiers that’s quite a strong testament and compelling endorsement. So indeed this seems to be an exceptionally good sounding amplifier by your account.

Now the Aric SET versus Lyngdorf 2170 is to say the least truly a contrast on several levels most notably the technology. The bottom line (for me) is music reproduction and which of these two products pulls you closer and deeper into the music you love. Kenny this is going to be a particularly interesting and also an informative comparison. I eagerly await your listening impressions given the high reference point established by the Aric amplifier.
Charles

@kdude66   Kenny, thanks for sharing your impressions of the Aric Audio 2A3 amp, built to your specs.

Did you use it with Preamps, other than the LTA MZ2S?  If not, it would be good to get a read from you on synergy with the LTA vs other preamps.

Also, are you planning on pairing it with another set of speakers to get more insight into the amp?

Thanks.

charles1dad

... regarding the preamplifier gain issue, 35 db is far too much for virtually any audio system to utilize. You’d literally have no range of the volume control i.e. one click above the 8 o’clock V.C. knob and it’d be too loud even in systems with very inefficient speakers.

Sorry, but you are completely mistaken. There is no inherent correlation between the position of a volume control and the actual output of a preamplifier.  Different volume controls have varying tapers, and it's the taper that establishes the link between the control's position and the output of the preamplifier. You can design a control's taper to set the output anywhere you like along the control's rotation.

Cleeds, I wouldn’t by any means say that Charles is "completely mistaken." While it is of course true that there are differences in the taper characteristics of various volume controls, it is also true that, as he said, "35 db is far too much for virtually any audio system to utilize. " And I would add emphasis to the word "far," especially in applications involving digital (as opposed to vinyl) sources.

And while "you can design a control’s taper to set the output anywhere you like along the control’s rotation," a preamp which provides 35 db of gain but has a volume control taper that results in the control being positioned in the area of say 12 o’clock when used by most listeners in most systems would be an unusual design to say the least.

Regards,
-- Al

Hey guys, just a generic note on my test preamp. I use this as a unit for my bench only (it's not something I design for consumption), and it has a variable output level as well as input control that can reach up to 35 db (generally 35 db is not used in everyday testing). I was simply stating that using that preamplifier, I was able to get plenty of drive into the 6SN7 driving the 2A3. Using a lower gain preamp, the 6SN7's can still be driven, but needed a bit more volume on the preamp to do so. The 6SL7 simply has more gain in front of the power tube- needing less preamp drive at it's input. 

almarg

Cleeds, I wouldn’t by any means say that Charles is "completely mistaken." While it is of course true that there are differences in the taper characteristics of various volume controls ...

That was the only aspect of his post to which I responded, Al.  Many audiophiles cling to the misguided assumption that the actual physical position of a volume control in some way correlates to actual output power. You certainly understand that a volume control that is half-way between full-on and full-off may drive an amp at half-power, quarter-power, or nearly full power, or anything else. There's no way to tell without actually measuring.

I don't argue that 35dB seems like very high gain for a line stage preamplifier and it isn't clear to me what, if any benefit, such high gain would offer.

I would like to call out Response Audio as someone who makes great tube pre-amp..

@aniwolfe - Thanks for the preamp suggestion

@porcheracer - Thanks for mentioning the Don Sachs, I’m very curious how it sounds when you get it.

Truth be told I’m on the fence as to whether to add a tube pre-amp I don’t need, but may very much want for sonic reasons or maybe I should upgrade my Benchmark DAC2 HGC (which surprisingly, some here seem to hate viscerally, LOL, I’m just kidding.) to the AURALIC VEGA DAC which John Atkinson says sonically edges out the Benchmark DAC2 HGC (that btw he loves & so do I....hahah :-) ) by a smidgen.

or screw it all...& I’ll just get the Linear Tube Audio’s MZ2

@jcarcopo,

I looked at the LTA MZ2 and talked with some people I know and trust from another forum about it. Based on testing and critical listening, they are not fans of Berning's ZOTL design.

My main point of research became the deHavilland UltraVerve 3. Then, I was made aware of the Don Sachs preamp by someone here and on another forum I frequent. I could find no reviews, professional or private party, that were anything but positive for these two preamps. I feel like I could not go wrong with either one. The Don Sachs seemed like a better design overall and used more of the 6SN7 tubes of which I happen to 20 quality pairs. I like the fact the preamp was highly customizable for my specific setup.

Now I just have to wait for a while to get it. That is the price you pay for buying a custom made product from a person that has a decent amount of business.

I have already been told that the cap selection made for my preamp will require 100 hours of burn-in to start sounding right. Fun....

Hi Cleeds,
Yes I am aware of the ability to manipulate the volume control taper. My point is that in "practical" terms 35 db is an excessive amount of gain for particularly a preamplifier/line stage. If we differ on that point, we’ll okay. 35 db will be a problem in the vast majority of audio systems even with a controlled taper V.C, Al thanks for your input.
Charles

@charles1dad 

@cleeds already agreed that 35dB seems excessive for a line stage preamp....

Porscheracer,
I had suggested the Sachs, Dehavilland and the Atma-Sphere MP-3 a few weeks ago.  I felt that you couldn't go wrong with any of these.  I believe that you'll be very happy with your choice. 
Charles 

charles1dad

... My point is that in "practical" terms 35 db is an excessive amount of gain for particularly a preamplifier/line stage.

It sure seems to be excessive!  What is the supposed advantage of such high gain in a line stage?

Hi Cleeds, 
Aric clarified that level of gain was used for testing purposes and he doesn't use this level in his commercial products. I can’t think of a good reason for that much gain otherwise. 
Charles 

porscheracer,

Yes I agree that you can't go wrong with a Sachs preamp,probably will make a great match with your pioneer amp.

I have heard one of the Sachs preamps in a another system and it sounded and also looked very well made.
Be patient,I think it will be worth the wait.

Kenny.

Thanks, @charles1dad for the preamp suggestions!!

I can't wait to get it....but I have to!!!

Thank's to all that gave detailed info about preamp gain and VC tapers and overall matching component details.

In this Aric audio amp the higher gain 6sl7 tube draws less current from the amps pwr supply and lightens it's overall load vs a 6sn7.

When you have a set amp that has low pwr every little detail helps IMO.

Kenny.

6SL7 tubes have more gain and higher output impedance if you need that but they are not as good sonically. They have more distortion. The 6SN7 tube is the better preamp tube....

I’d agree that the 6NS7 is preferable for preamplifier duty but in Kenny’s power amplifier the task/function is to be a "driver" tube for the 2A3 output tube. So as Aric described above the 6SL7 makes sense. Similar circumstances in my amplifier,  the builder chose the 6EM7 over a 6SN7 due to the higher current capability to drive the 300b output tube.
Charles

So I just got mine in today....upgraded DIs...BMW marina blue and I am sitting here, blown the hell away.  Thank you Eric...thank you Karma for putting up with my calls/emails.  Incredibly worth the wait...never heard anything so good.  Thank you guys for putting me on these....wow...chills

Rockytophigh, 
Congratulations and it's good to read that you're extremely pleased, that is terrific.  What amplifier are you driving the DIs with?
Charles 

Ha! Right on! I love mine! I am bloooowwwwnnnn away too!

Congrats rocktophigh! Glad to hear you're now enjoying what many of here have been touting. Hope you have a free evening tonight to bask in the musical bliss. 

I finally ordered my Aric Transcend SET KT 120 amp with upgraded Audyn Pure Copper signal caps and an upgraded medical grade IEC filter.....not that I know what that is :) Thanks to Aric for all of his help in making this amp to suit my preferences.

Also, my Concert Fidelity DAC 040-BD arrives tomorrow. Fun times! A big thanks to Mike at Audio Archon for such great and prompt customer service. 

Tom, 
I have heard that DAC in an all Concert Fidelity system a few times and the sound on each occasion was pure natural  music!  I believe that you'll be very happy with it. 
Charles 

I sold my Parasound Halo and bought a Kingko 101 (I think that's right) and rolled it to the recommended tubes.  W4S DAC with the big music server.   Audible Illusions Modulus pre....holy crap people!!!  Bob Marley just rolled me a joint...lol...he is right here

@ rockytophigh
Some bass eh?

Charles,
I have high hopes for it. Both teajay and Mike at Audio Archon raved about it and Mike hooked me up with a good deal for one. I couldn't pass it up. 

RockytopHIGH, did you inhale? Just wait, the DI's will sound even better with more time on them.