I have recently purchased a basis turntable and was wondering what analog lovers think is the very best phono stage they have heard . I currently use the Sutherland PhD and like it very much but have not really had an opportunity to audition other great phono stages. The cartridge I intend to use is the Dynavector XV-1S . Thanking you for your opinions
I have had an Allnic 1500 for awhile now. I've not had a really top end phono stage before, only in the Project Tube Box/Eastern Electric range. I tried the Allnic H-1200 first and found it startlingly better than what I had previously experienced. Soooo, went to the H-1500 soon after. Like Genesis, I've rolled some tubes in the power supply and found quite significant differences in character (not necessarily quality )resulting; great to have that flexibility. I've been using the H-1500 with the Allnic Verito cartridge on a Dynavector 505 on Technics SP-10 MK II with a custom plinth (I bought from Rob Wyatt). At the moment, I'm not interested at all in another manufacturer - just mulling over how to get an H-3000.
Ecka Battery povered phono-stage. I forget to mention that those are 'rechargeble' batterys and that one can change them after 6-7 years self. I also forget to mention that even Raul can't fulfill the conditions implied by the implication.I.e. comparition of 20+ phono-stages. Those are not carts. Cheers
Ecka. Battery povered phono-stage. BTW the question as stated is impossible to answer because of the 'implication': comparition of,say,20+ phono- stages. My experience is in some sense 'onesided'. My first battery phono was ASR 'Basis' with separate power suply and 4x12 Volt batterys in the 'main box'. I was very happy with this phono for years (10?). But then come the 'Exclusive' with very positive reviews from Pearson,Fremer and others. So I bought the 'Exclusiev' 2 years ago. Those are very havy'machines' and ,it seem to me, a kind of overkill: 400.000 uF (in the pow.sup) + 700.000 uF in the 'main box'. But there is no question about: the exlusive is in another leaque. My 'Eclusive' has 2 separat but 'identical' phonos so I use 2 carts: Jubilee and Phase Tech P-3 G,both with 100 Ohm. There are many models of 'Exlusive',sinds +/- 2000 (in Germany known as 'HD'). They are all in my opinion very good and very interesting as 'second hand'. For +/- 2000 Euro one can get one in Germany. Alas the weight is 35 kgr. and the Voltage is 240. Cheers
I agree with Atmasphere's posts. Some phono stages (mostly tubed and with no NFB) pass record noise as a "background" effect, barely noticeable, a very fast and clean transient that fades quickly, while others (mostly SS with lots of NFB) seem to emphasize and hang on too long to the noise, as if the phono amp circuit went into clipping or oscilation.
This is not a frequency response effect, it is about how the phono stage handles the noise spikes, which are very complex and steep signals.
Jonathan is correct that NFB is not bad by itself, it is a tool that must be used properly. I have had in my system some excellent amplifiers with and without NFB. In general, mild NFB improves signal to noise ratio, bass control and measurable distortion. When properly designed, no NFB circuits (specially tubed ones) have great dynamics, aliveness and very clean midrange/treble, but are not the last word in bass control or S/N ratio.
Best is a VERY subjective word than can can only be stated within the context of someone's priorities, budget and limited experience. Regarding phono stages, the sheer number of possible interactions and adjustments makes it impossible to even attempt to rank phono stages. A $2000 phono stage with good NOS tubes and proper loading/gain wil probably sound much better than a 10K phono stage with generic tubes and improper adjustments.
My best wine "moment" was a cheap Riolla spanish white wine, slightly chilled, accompanying a delicious Paella, though I have tasted several more expensive wines (not a wine expert anyway).
To end this rant and give you some kind of useful advice, I suggest looking up on Audiogon the price of used phono stages. Used prices are a good indication of a product's quality, reliability and desirability. As far as I know, there are no "classic", highly sought-after SS phono stages. OTOH tubed phono stages tend to retain good value in the used market. Some even appreciate over time.
Jcarr , we certainly agree about that! There are so many things that have to be taken into account that any designer that focuses too closely on any one aspect may well be doing so at his/her own peril. I think, like you (I imagine), that while its nice to get the specs to look good on paper, that there are so many things that we can't measure and so many things that we do that are not important- you **have** to listen carefully as well.
Ralph, of course I was including state-of-the-art, award-winning designs. Of course.
I invariably dial in the amount of feedback that I use by ear as well as meter, and sometimes the result is more GNFB, sometimes less (or zero).
FWIW, when a circuit sounds like it has too much GNFB, to my ears the sonic problems tend to manifest themselves as dynamic compression and timbral shifts in a decidedly unnatural direction, as well as spatial flattening.
My general experience has been that using GNFB to try to turn a poor-sounding circuit into something decent rarely gives acceptable results. A design that sounds good with lots of GNFB (global feedback) tends to sound pretty good without it, too.
So while I think there are similar aspects to our respective standpoints, Ralph, we'll just have to agree to disagree as to the usefulness of GNFB for SOTA audio.
As an aside, I've auditioned some highly-regarded commercial zero NFB designs that I liked and admired a lot (yours among them), while others (some also highly regarded) have left a different impression.
For example, perhaps two months ago, I had a chance to listen at length to a high-feedback preamp design of mine from the late 1990's, Charles Hansen's zero NFB KX-R preamp, and a contemporary highly-regarded European-made zero NFB preamp. It was my opinion as well as others who heard these same pieces that Charles' zero-NFB KX-R and my high-GNFB design sounded a lot closer to each other than either did to the European-made zero-NFB preamp (which FWIW sounded much more "contrived").
I stand by my opinion that the individual designing the product has a far greater effect on the sound than whatever technology that he happens to choose.
Jcarr, while I agree with most of what you have said, and I also feel that its a bad idea to make generalizations, especially in **this** sport, I can safely say that I have yet to see a decent circuit where feedback was also a good idea. Certainly I have seen and worked on many circuits that I consider less than ideal; many of them would not work at all without feedback. Nor would they sound right.
My comments are really aimed at the state of the art, which IMO is going to have to do when we talk about the 'best' :) In that context we may have a difference of opinion, but I'm stick'n to my story: feedback violates the most important rule of human hearing, our perception of loudness. Thus a designer uses it at his/her own peril, as it will be an influence that steers the electronics away from sounding real, and towards sounding like a hifi.
Ralph's assertions are not entirely correct. While there may be a propagation delay associated with feedback, if the designer knows what he is doing, global feedback can remain useful in circuits that operate in the hundreds of MHz, which is far, far, far higher than anything we can hear.
It is also true that global feedback can enhance certain harmonics, but it should also be pointed out that this is related to the amount of feedback applied. Ergo, altering the amount of feedback will in many cases solve the problem, and that may sometimes entail less feedback, sometimes more.
I have designed multiple phono stages, some with feedback, some without. My experience has been that different circuits benefit from different amounts of global feedback, and that the designer should use his ears as well as as measuring tools to determine the correct amount of feedback. Sometimes the proper amount is 0dB, and sometimes the proper amount may be 60dB. It depends on the circuit topology and how it is built (and in some cases what the operating environment is like).
For the non-engineer audiophile, I would recommend forgetting the preconceptions and using your ears to decide whether a given phono stage is a good one or not.
I would say that the technical capabilities and aesthetic sensibilities (including hearing abilities) of the designer play a much bigger role in successful phono stage design than what kinds of technology that it uses.
Hi Ecka, active phono EQ works inside a feedback network in the phono stage (the feedback takes a bit of the output signal and feeds it back to the input). Because the signal propagates through the phono section at a very finite speed, the feedback is always running a little behind the actual signal itself- in effect it never arrives back at the input in time. This problem is not so bad in the bass region, but in the highs it contributes to ringing in the phono stage. Pops and ticks are the sort of thing that will thus become more noticeable if your phono section employs loop negative feedback.
Loop feedback is known to reduce distortion overall, but at a price- at actually enhances (although in trace amounts) certain odd-ordered harmonics. The trouble is that our ears use these harmonics as loudness cues, so quite often loop feedback contributes to brightness or hardness in the phono section, while on paper the specs appear to be quite good.
Balanced differential operation offers several advantages- of course the cartridge itself is balanced, so you can accept the signal in the balanced domain and get less noise and artifact from the interconnect. But balanced differential operation is also lower distortion because distortion is canceled at every stage throughout the preamp. It also can be lower noise. I like to use tubes as well since tubes can operate without loop feedback, and what I found is that if you really want tubes to be quiet, balanced differential is an excellent way to go.
Of course I use our preamps (either MP-1 MkIII or MP-3) in my system- I use both the ZYX Universe and the Transfiguration Orpheus, both exceptional low output cartridges.
Ecka, I have owned my Sutherland PhD for a good two years now. The Sutherland PhD IMO does many things well.
Atmasphere of course brings up good points, and I'll agree wholeheartedly, a world class phono stage cannot just be judged by that it does one thing right.
In the course of the past two years, there have been three different Cartridges in my system, a 9-10 year old Benz Micro Glider, which had new life, when the Sutherland was inserted into the system. Then I moved onto the Benz Ruby 3. Of course a better Cartridge, which IMO possessed many similar traits of the Glider, retaining much of that "Benz House Sound", but with some better refinement, and purity of sound.
Then, on a whim, I moved to a new ZYX Airy 3X SB low output Cartridge. Here, was where I finally seen just how well the Sutherland could play, as my pristine LPs took on a CD like quality of dead silence, both from groove silence, and as well, whenever there was the slight tick, or pop on an LP, these were then placed much further in the background versus the other two Benz Cartridges.
There's no doubt about it, that Cartridges as well have a major influence on how a record will sound, and how they handle surface noise, and defects in the groove.
I do believe in general, just like Cartridges, that you usually do get what you pay for, meaning that a $5,000 Phono Stage should outperform a $3,000 one, and usually has a better host of features as well.
Of course, it does too boil down to personal preference Some may try a Manley Steelhead, and come away saying that they didn't like it for whatever personal reasons, and particular likes. Synergy with other quipment is as well very important.
There is one man I know, who is a member here, Sunnyboy1956, who recently sold his Sutherland PhD, and moved onto the Nagra VPS Phono Stage. He uses a Michell Deck, a TriPlanar Arm, and Lyra Skala Cartridge. Yes, he says the Nagra is an improvement over the Sutherland. Mark
Atmasphere, that is a very good point. To be honest, I was not aware that different phono stages could affect loudness of ticks and pops separate to their noise floor. In such a situation is the audio signal also negatively affected?? How can a amplification device distinguish between a surface noise pop and a "music" pop (please pardon my ignorance if this question reveals a basic lack of understanding on my part). Which phono stage are really good at reducing surface noises Which phono stage do you use.
Noise floor is not the final word in phono stages by any means. Some phono stages are quiet, until you put on a record and realize that there are an awful lot of ticks and pops. Other phono stages (usually ones with passive EQ) may have a slightly higher noise spec but will not play the ticks and pops so bad, even though they have the same bandwidth (IOW its not a function of high frequency response).
Since these are subjective issues not easily measured on the bench, there is no specification that will let you know how badly a phono section will exacerbate surface noise- you just have to compare them.
IMO/IME this is an important quality of the 'best' phono stage...
In regards to battery powered phono stages, I would be grateful if anyone who has had a Sutherland Phd and has moved on to another phono stage could outline their reasons for doing so. Whenever the Phd gets discussed, it's quietness appears to be it's main strength. Would this not be the case for all other battery powered phonostages?
Thank you for the many responses. There are a few recurring names that I will try to get a hold of for audition in my system.
I am sure you heard what you heard when you heard it, it just seems an unfair generalization about the component given my own experience in owning and using the unit for over a year. Synergies can make or break particular components, even the best, so building systems with components that work in conjunction with each other is tough, as I have learned. It isn't always easy to figure out where the synergy, or lack thereof, comes from. Been listening to Sonny Sharrock on the H 3000, what a blast.
"For me it seemed to happen with music that had real drive like the Electric pieces from Casino by Al DiMeola remember being told that it must be production on record from dealer"
"Casino" is one of my faves, played it many times on the Allnic 1500, wonderful rendition. All I can say is that my impressions in my own system do not agree that the Allnic doesn't rock or muddles amplified electric guitars, just the opposite, they thrash loud and clear.
I found the Aqvox to be an exceptional phono stage. It is solid state and provides a variety of options that will accomondate any cartridge. I recently switched from a Benz Ruby to Koetsu Urushi with out any problems. The Aqvox when connected through the balanced connectors automatically adjusts the load for the particular cartridge in use at the time. This is an excellent feature. But for those who like to play around with different load settings you can simply connect through the rca ports and have a blast. The Aqvox sells for less than 2,000 and well worth the investment. Have fun with your search. Herman
For me it seemed to happen with music that had real drive like the Electric pieces from Casino by Al DiMeola remember being told that it must be production on record from dealer
Dunno, my Allnic phonos shred, rip, grind, sting and bump with the best I have heard. I have been listening to ZZ Top, Cream, Blind Faith and Santana, never sounded better . Of course, it is always advisable to listen to a particular phono staqe if possible for a particular taste in music.
I heard the Allnic H1500 twice in two seperate systems both times it did a wonderful job with acoustic music but when it came to electric disorted guitars it sounded very muddy to me. I have not heard the 3000 So if you going down that route please hear before you buy the 1500 is not for everyone
G'day all. As an avid DIYer, at least for MM's I never tire of my Elliott Sound Products P06 phono stage.
It is designed for MM's, but is quite suitable for MC's via an SUT. I love the P06 for it's quietness, sonic 'definition', effortless high frequency clarity and realistic bass end. A top phono preamp, in my humble opinion. Regards, Fap.
A great product in your price range, maybe one of best in the world (IMHO), is the Wavestream Phono Unit. It's a Scott Franklin tube design. It's neutral, quiet while being very musical. You can buy it with one, two or up to three phono inputs. FYI, Wavestream produces a great tube Line Unit.
BTW: Audio Note pre-amp with a phono section might be a good choice with your step up tranny. There are two listed now.
Ecka, I am currently using the low output (.24mv) ZYX Airy 3X SB Cartridge. Settings on my Sutherland PhD are 62db Gain (lowest setting on the High gain Boards). I could've used 60db Gain as well, and possibly 64db without detriment. Loading is set at the suggested 100 Ohms, with fine results.
I'm sure all units mentioned here are all of the very best, of this I have no doubt. There will always be just too many variables with any given piece of equipment. What might shine in your system, might sound lackluster, or quite different in another's. I think we can all agree on that much.
And the other is of course, extracting the very best from the equipment you have, and I would bet in quite a few cases, incorrect set-up of Cartridge, and Phono Stage can account for much.
If you do not have such a tool, or a tool of comparable quality, definitely consider a high quality Protractor, such as the Mintlp, sold by Yip in Hong Kong. He's dependable, will ship anywhere in the world, and I'd bet the majority of responders here will all tell you the exact same thing, that the Mintlp Protractor has made very pleasing, notable improvements in all of thier system's sound. I, without any reservation, highly recommend this tool. It is worth its cost. Mark
Well, I owned the PHD, the Manley steelhead w/ a Mcintosh C2200 preamp. I sold the the PHD and loved (thought I loved) the Manley....... I changed all the tubes and thought ...this is it! ( Oh, forgot to mention....table Basis DebutSignature Vaccuum table, Graham Phantom Dynavector XV1S) Bought a Mcintosh C2300......MUCH better than the Manley....Sold the Manley and ended up w/ Tron7 signature w/ NOS Telefunkens......ABSOLUTE MAGIC!! The C2300has an incredible phono stage and is a VERY CLOSE second place to the tron. My .02cents........
Ecka , i have a Audion note /Kondo step-up & i use it with my AIR TIGHT ATE-2 Phono stage. it has 2 phono inputs as well as a line level input , you could use it as a pre amp with its volume control ,but it sounds alot better as a phono stage.
Markd51, Thanks for your comments. I currently use the audionote Io cartridge with the Japanese Audionote SUT. I have not yet used the Dynavector. I will look into the high gain boards . BTW what cartridge do you use?
Hello Ecka, I've noted, and if others as well read carefully, you make mention of the "Cartridge you intend to use, is the Dyna XV-1S".
Does that mean that you not currently using that Cartridge with your Sutherland PhD? If not, what Cartridge are/were you using, that you make mention of requiring a Audionote SUT with the Sutherland?
Forgive me for asking, or for any confusion, but the Sutherland should be fine all by itself, with the Dyna XV-1, at .3mv without the need of another SUT in the path which might be possibly be further degrading the signal.
The Sutherland PhD has up to 60db Gain with the Stock Gain Boards, and the optional High Gain Boards (About $75 for the Pair) can be gotten I believe from Elusive Disc (That was where I bought mine from). The High Gain Boards are 62-64-66-68 db. Custom Blank Loading Boards can be gotten as well, and custom value Resistors can be soldered in by those handy with a soldering Iron.
The Sutherland PhD is perhaps not the best Phono Stage in the world, but it's forte, which almost no other Phono Stage can rival, is its dead silence, and immunity to EMI, and RFI. Hope this helps, Mark
I really do appreciate all the replies. For the replies that question the value of the question, let me explain that living in Australia, there are no places where one can get presented with a range of high end phono stages to decide from,therefore, another person's experience with similair equipment to what I have and who have moved on from it ,is particularly helpful as it would direct me to seek out such equipment for audition. In relation to budget, I was looking at the 5000 to 10000 range. BTW I also use a Audionote step up transformer. I look forward to other opinions Thanks again
Don't know about the best but the Allnic H-3000 phono stage is hard to beat and I really mean it...that's if you like transformers. Check 'em out here on audiogon. The H-1500 is also a fine piece for the $$. I used to own the H1500 and just received the H-3000. I run the XV1s and a few other cartridges with it. I also have a friend who swears by the Tron/XV1s combo and that itself is a great piece too.
There's lots of fine product out there if you're willing to break the $5000 barrier. Also depends what you value most in the sound will help determine what works best for you.
IMHO the best of anything is not necessarily the most expensive or even the best-sounding; it's the best you can get a deal on. Sort of like shopping the specials.
The best special I know of at the moment is an Audiomat 1.5 from UHF Magazine. I believe the one they are selling also has the new beefier power supply. This is a selloff because Audiomat will have a 1.6 model out soon.
There is something special about Audiomat gear, it really seems to bring out the life in the music. Other phono stages I've heard are also good, with different flavours, but this is the best sonic deal I know of right now.
The best I have listen to is the Boulder 2008. I could not afford it, I purchased a Nagra VPS. I have a Basis Debut with a Graham Phantum. Cartridges I have are Lyra & Koetsu. It sounds great
The word 'best' exists for a reason. In the audio world though, defining what that even means is troublesome.
So what is the best? Is it something that everyone agrees on? no.
The best specs? Maybe, but likely not. Its now well-proven that what is important to our ears does not show up on paper very well, if at all.
I think it would be a bad idea to focus on any one characteristic and most audiophiles have different ideas about what is important.
So best, unfortunately IMO is only defined personally, and is inherently limited to the experience of the individual. IOW there can be something out there that is a whole lot better, but since its unknown to the individual, it does not exist.
So we ask. The problem here is that we have a vernacular that describes audio artifact or lack thereof, but the vernacular lacks the ability to transmit knowledge of intensity. The result is that one person can be describing a cheap transistor amp that might be the best they have ever heard, and the person he is talking to is used to much better equipment, maybe a $20,000 tube amp, yet they are using exactly the same descriptions to describe very different experiences.
So, IMO, while there is a best, there is no way that we can talk about it intelligently. So it might be wise to ask a different question!
The best is the one YOU like the best, the question is how to find it; popularity polls are of little use. Set down the elements of sound reproduction that are the most important to YOU and try to decide which one you can afford matches it best. The beginning of wisdom in audio is the recognition that THE BEST does not exist and what you are seeking is the one that best conforms to YOUR ideal of sound reproduction. Being able to recognize what that ideal is is the end of wisdom in audio. On second thought, forget everything I have said. The constant search for the HOLY GRAIL provides old timers like me with a never-ending stream of great equipment at good prices.
The Boulder 2008 is probaly the best I've heard, but at $33,000 it is pricey. I own an Aesthetix Rhea that is very close to the Boulder, and an ASR Basis Exclusive that might equal the Boulder, but I have not been able to directly compare. For the price, the Rhea would be very hard to beat.
Well the best might be the Whest Reference it just conveys music. Its strange the Tron being mentioned I heard it a few times and to my ears it was slightly coloured having a dark presentation. But there is a chance this was the system. It has tremendous resolution but so has the Whest Reference I think what makes the Whest reference special is manufactures like Amazon and Raven who use it there system But as it been said earlier there is no real best just about preferences
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