the big one: how do you choose speakers? By what features, data?
I am curious how the experts choose speakers when upgrading? What are the priorities, what would make you stretch your budget?
Based on e.g....
brand/company’s reputation
price
sensitivity
crossover frequency
compatibility with existing amp, etc.?
I don’t have buyer’s remorse for my last pair but I sure made some stupid choices until I got there, that I could have avoided if I had known about this forum sooner.
his past work and designs and how they were accepted
his philosophy behind the build and components
the look
the specs
the price
the reviews
the return policy
I've been burned a few times with speaker choices so I took all of the aforementioned criteria and did lots of online listening, scouring the internet for feedback. This festered in my brain for well over two months before I pulled the trigger and ordered them.
I always kick myself for not being more impulsive as what I obsess on is usually what I buy and in this case that obsession paid off in musical spades.
There is a fair amount of truth to your approach. It's all about what makes up the speaker's price. E.g. if it's a luxury brand and the speakers are all delivered and setup by a technician with a degree from MIT, there will be a cost to that, a markup in each of the company's product.
Ideally, the company will want to make money on their premium line and leave no margin on their cheapest model while it benefits from the trickle down magic. Ideally but often it's not the case. You are paying for the membership in the club.
E.g. I tried Sonus Faber's entry model and it sounded bad. Surprisingly bad.
In short, every manufacturer uses a (unique) pricing and design model, and some do what you are describing.
Lastly, the 10K budget is nice. Mine is 2K. Not complaining a lot of awesome choices there...
I like to go with the most basic speaker in a line that has trickle down technology from a highly respected.....high priced.....premium sound speaker mfgr. I’ve found the " cheapest" Magico or MBL Speaker is a real bargain...These companies KNOW how to make extraordinary speakers. I just purchased the Borresen X3 @ 11K.....because they sound very Close to their 100K speakers. Good Luck to you. Rather than buy the most expensive speaker in a cheaper line...get the cheapest speaker in an expensive line...Plus the resale is much better.
@needfreestuffYou described the OGY. Really. The midrange is crystal because you have a world class single driver without a crossover to muck things up. The bass is so tight thanks to the transmission line. The cabinet is solid plywood. No MDF. There’s 0 port farting. It’s fast. Sensitivity is 91db. I don’t know how I would describe the highs. The speaker is so transparent.
i don't have a typical rich person's monster amplifier, so speakers i use must be fairly sensitive, above about 88 db [1w/1m] sensitivity. my thiel cs.5s barely made the cut as do my present magnapans. they also [for the same aforementioned reason] must not dip below 4 ohms. stereophonic imaging is very important to me, so that is one more thing i check for when auditioning speakers systems. it has to get the midrange right at least, neutrality in the trebles is also important, the bass can be adjusted somewhat so that is less important so long as it has power handling and sensitivity down there.
I went down the single driver speaker rabbit hole after living 2 miserable years with a pair of Klipsch RP600M. Sometimes knowing what you absolutely hate can steer you in a direction. I just don’t want my speakers to sound like the singer is behind a door. The speakers I bought have almost no reviews and nobody cares. I bought them on a whim from a Google ad.
… And I’m pretty darn happy with my decision! I guess I’m just a crazy person screaming in a well. Everyone else is probably going for the Buchardt S400 in that price.
@audioguy85yeah, you sound like you have the right amount of audio gear with a storage problem... Or :)
When you read reviews, who do you trust? Almost every review is positive. I used to be able to read car reviews and tell which way is up, but with speakers, the ones they are reviewing is always the greatest, best bang for the buck.
I read reviews. Then I buy unseen/unheard. Tough to audition nowadays, all my hifi stores/haunts have shuttered. I am mostly pleased with what I’ve bought, which currently includes tannoy legacy eaton, Martin Logan motion 15, wharfedale diamond 225, and JBL 4309. This Is all in my wheelhouse right now. All have their own sound characteristics and all sound wonderfull, at least to my ears. Don’t ask about the other crap I own, it would take me an hour to list it all 🙄, it’s an illness.
I bought my Focal Sopra 2's almost 3 years ago, when I decided to buy new speakers after owning the Celestion A1's for 22 years I did a lot of research. I don't have a local dealer around me so I would have to drive around 200 miles to listen to any audio equipment, I just didn't have that much time for various reasons. I found a PS Audio BHK 250 amp about a month before I got the speakers that Upscale Audio had on sale for a really good price, so I called and just happened to get Joel on the phone. My first impression was wow this guys seems like he knows what he is talking about. When I did finally decide to get new speakers I called Joel again to ask about the Sopra's and he assured me that they sounded great. I went ahead and bought the speakers and could not be happier. Joel definitely led me in the right direction. Upscale and Kevin's team are awesome, I just wish I had the time to go to Laverne, CA to meet them in person.
I prefer to buy in a store where I can listen to the speakers first and then take them home for another listen. The last ones I bought was actually used nut sold from the store with guarantee. I could even bring my amp to the store to check that they worked together.
So, see if you have stores around you and what speakers they have. That is my advice.
Sound, price, and does the company back their product, can I get parts and what is the overall customer service? Without the 3rd consideration covered...I don’t have the brand on my list.
There have been very popular and great sounding speaker companies that have come and gone.... in a decade or less. Not what I want. The reputation and longevity of a company means ALOT to me.
By dynamic linearity(my handle) which is NOT playing loud cleanly although that's a small part of it. It's accurate, non-compressed level changes whether they are micro changes or macro changes. It's what makes live music sound live. Think of it you can tell live sound even outside a room so it's not the standard ideas such as flat response which is lost out of the room. And change a seat in a live concert and the response changes in different locations but the dynamic linearity doesn't. I think of wide bandwidth speakers that always sound sweet and smooth as wide bandwidth radios but not as accurate reproduction. And all the other stuff like flat response and low distortion matter but they are secondary.
My sentiment exactly! In my speaker journey I discovered the specifications to look at that might help define the criteria above. Power linearity, directivity, dispersion and true efficiency, if you can find a speaker manufacturer that will publish said specifications. FWIW, my present speakers are actively biamped hybrid horns. 😎
I’m not an ”expert”, but I can share my speaker shopping experience.
I’m semi retired so started in-depth researching audio components about 7yrs ago. I read all the current audio reviews including TAS and Stereophile. I started demoing the best speakers I can find, then try to duplicate the sound the best I can within my limited budget. I consistently favored Magico or YG, but my budget limited me to the Nagico A5 or a used S5mk2. I dream of the M3 maybe someday.
Since this was my first audio chain, I wanted end to end neutrality so I can easily evaluate component upgrades. So the speaker I was targeting was neutral, linear, but not clinical. I’m interested In crystalline highs and well defined bass. At last year’s AXPONA, I demoed with the intent to choose a speaker to purchase. It came down to the Magico A5 which had better treble clarity, vs Rockport Atrua sounded better balanced but somewhat muffled - show conditions often have poor sonics. During the show I heard the very highly regarded Vimberg Mino D but when I discovered it had the D “diamond tweeter”, which is a +$10k option, it was priced above my budget. After AXPONA, I discussed my findings with my dealer who offered to be the intermediary to help me to get the Vimberg speakers. So after they lowered the price and I raised my budget, I purchased the demo speakers- likely the same green ones advertised in Stereophile/TAS magazines.
My other system is to explore tube midrange magic, so using a flea watt 300b amp to drive my 100db Volti Rival speakers. I also wanted a neutral, linear speaker but very high sensitivity to run a 4-8 watt amp - choices are slim.
Other speakers that are more musical than neutral/linear are the DeVore Orangutan 0/96 and the Fleetwood Sound DeVille speakers. Maybe someday.
I’ve heard horn systems work well in small rooms; they should not be ruled out for any situation. Also many horn systems are really at their best playing softly—they deliver a lively sound at lower volume than other types of speakers.
I’ve heard horn systems work well in small rooms; they should not be ruled out for any situation. Also many horn systems are really at their best playing softly—they deliver a lively sound at lower volume than other types of speakers.
No expert here. The most significant speaker criteria for me would be dynamics, dynamic contrast, and low distortion. As a HiFi enthusiast the speaker specifications I look at are:
1) power linearity:
2) efficiency:
3) dispersion:
4) directivity:
5) nominal impedance and minimum impedance:
6) low frequency response:
7) sensitivity:
Mike
I can certainly relate to most of what you mention here as parameters very much important to me as well. I’d further: ample headroom over the entire frequency range is vital, even through the full SPL envelope one can imagine to ever require. If, say, ~105dB’s peak is the upper limit for typical SPL levels during playback, then add a bunch of dB’s on top of that for what one’s setup should be capable of achieving, at the listening position, to actually have those levels reproduced effortlessly and with low distortion. This is not trivial nor overkill; it’s knowing what it means to the perceived sonics, and appreciating the difference it makes compared to systems that can’t muster the same, if any headroom to speak of at max SPL’s required.
And this brings me to one of the elephants in the room, so to speak: size. Larger size of speakers is an inescapable necessity to achieve prodigious headroom with all that entails - certainly over most of the audible frequency spectrum. What many fail to realize as a rationale behind high sensitivity and large size is the fact that it’s very often, but not always, about headroom and ease of reproduction. It’s convenient, if not downright misleading to simply label large size and high eff. as a means to blast one’s ears off and thereby being an act of crudeness, but in my case (and many others) it’s about how it sounds at levels not dissimilar to what audiophiles generally expose themselves to, and the uninhibited nature of transient and dynamic response this also leads to.
Larger horns, i.e.: making them fittingly larger can also be about having them perform the best over their entire frequency range in maintaining directivity control, achieving the highest efficiency and smoothest frequency response. Some merely believe it’s bonkers, too much, exaggerated, etc., but as is said, and not without merit: the larger the horn the less it usually sounds like a horn. Those who have heard it knows what it means.
Question then is whether some of these larger behemoths given their sheer size are really unfit for smaller to moderately sized listening spaces, and they definitely can be in some respects, but mostly it comes down to lack of implementation and/or elevated SPL’s that saturates the (likely too lively and uneven) acoustic environment. Sonically I’d much rather have a properly sized horn setup in a moderately sized listening room than a horn ditto of smaller and restricted stature to accommodate domestic requirements.
You have to know exactly what you like, something you learn after a lot of experience which usually means you are entitled to a few missteps. I like line source dipoles which limits the search dramatically. Add to that a penchant for ESLs and I am down to just a few choices.
If you are limited to smaller point source speakers the number of choices can be daunting. If you are looking for speakers that "disappear" you will be more likely to achieve that effect with mini monitors on stands adding subwoofers. The most difficult part of any speaker is the enclosure. It is very difficult to keep any box from becoming a musical instrument, but is much easier keeping a small enclosure from doing same. Just because they are small does not mean they are not capable of prodigious output especially when equipped with subwoofers and a proper 2 way crossover. Everyone should hear Roger's LS3 5As with subwoofers, a jaw dropping experience.
@dz13you are very passionate, and I am too, I just need a little more research (which usually informs me how little I know and that I need to do moooore research)
My two cents is to figure out what type of speaker you are looking for first. Initially that is a question of floor standing vs bookshelf, ribbon, horn, planar, open baffle, box speaker etc. Then there are the different types of speaker voicings that are in some English or other foreign (to the US) countries that emphasize different things.
Then research, research, research to find out the best in the categories you like, can you find those speakers to listen to?, price, performance, reliability etc.
Obsess, obsess obsess over what you should do. Consider the price of the speaker and whether that would mean you have to invest in other things like stands, amplification, etc. What is the highest model you can afford and how long you can survive on macaroni and cheese before getting sick of it? Do the sellers allow for in home trials?
Compulsively pull the trigger. Be happy for a year or so. Rinse and repeat.
Nobody in this hobby was born an expert. You need to sample as many speakers and combinations as you can. I believe that a good speaker is good on any type of music. If it isn't then it is coloring or detracting from the sound. For me my number one priority is vocals. If familiar female vocals don't sound real to me I'm out right there. Some speakers do a wonderful job on everything but the lowest audible octave (20 Hz to 40 Hz). That usually is the most expensive to reproduce accurately and typically requires the addition of a sub-woofer. Anything lower than 20Hz is felt more than heard, but can add to realism. Piano is also a good test of a system. If you live in an apartment you may not want that lowest octave. Bass is the most likely to cause a standing wave which is dependent on your room measurements. A standing wave can double or half the bass output, and sometimes you just can't relocate the speakers to eliminate that effect. Bass traps and corner treatments of acoustic foam can transform a room. The speakers are only one link in the audio chain. Trust your ears!
You choose speakers "horses for courses", which is to say, speakers that best meet you requirements and simply, sound best to your ear. Bookshelf, Sub/sat, tower, panel are all viable options in your price range. Most speaker companies have series within their line, good, better, best; bronze, silver, gold; premier, elite, limited. If you have a big room and like loud, then that will guide you to a big floorstander, like a JBL S3900 or 4367 rather than a small bookshelf. Conversely, one of the nicest systems I've seen recently was in an 11X14 spare bedroom and consisted of a pair of KEF LS-50s, a driven by a Marantz 40 Integrated Amp. I love Magnepans, but you have to have both a Magnepan-friendly room that allows you to get them several feet away from both back and side walls and a very beefy 4-Ohm friendly amp.
In between you have the dual (or triple) 6" and 8" 3-ways. These are about as generally satisfactory of a speaker design as there is for your 'average' 200-300ft2 listening room, and from under $2,000/pr to well over $20,000 per pair they cover every budget point. They all have maximum output levels of aaround 112-115 dB and sensitivity usually 88-92 dB@1W/1M. They very dramaticlly in driver design (paper, kevlar, metal, composite sandwich) and tweeter (fabric and metallic dome, horn, AMT) and in cabinet construction (Vinyl MDF to cast unobtanium) and in internal bracing and detailing. But, the basic architecture remains - 2=3 woofers, midrange and tweeter in a vertical array. The reason is that this blueprint works very well across a huge expanse of requirements. How they sound varies as much as the pricetags, and some of the best values in audio fall into this category. From the the Polks and Monitor Audio SIlver 300 and 500 7G, to the megabuck Magico and Estelon and Watt, as well as B&W, KEF, JBL and a hundred more manufacturers.
Once you have you basic requirements, then comes research and education (read what people say, and learn to read between the lines) from which you create a shortlist that you can seek out and listen to and make your decision.
No expert here. The most significant speaker criteria for me would be dynamics, dynamic contrast, and low distortion. As a HiFi enthusiast the speaker specifications I look at are:
I understood about half of it. I am definitely not hi-fi, more like almost mid-fi.
But I do get your points about finding the best value, and focus on the characteristics that are important to me. Again awesome insight thank you, lots to think about!
I used to sell hi end audio and the mark up on speakers is insanely high. I myself have gone the factory direct route. A few years ago I was reading a TAS review of the Emerald Physics EP2.8’s and took a chance. I bought from Underwood Wally after talking to Walter Liederman (owner of EP) for a few hours on the phone and I'm glad I did. Sold my B&W 802D's and never looked back. The EP2.8's were less than 1/2 the price of the B&W's and are a much more lifelike sounding speaker IMO. Axiom's Audio M80's or M100's are great value, well made and sound better than most brand names in their price range. I think they still offer a 30 day in home trial too. I have also had the pleasure of listening to the Hsu CCB-8's with the Hsu ULS 15 MK2 subwoofer. They are too big to be called a bookshelf speaker and need stands, but that package is truly a giant killer and efficient enough to drive with a smaller amp or receiver because the subwoofer is self powered. Dr Hsu demonstrates it with a little 10 yr old Sony receiver and the sound is truly astounding and not just for the price, astounding period. These speakers all use some kind of directional control of the HF's. The Hsu and the EP's use concentric mounted tweeters inside the midrange driver which controls dispersion and early reflections that can smear the image. I believe Axiom also uses a directional lens tweeter to control dispersion. Go to these websites, find a speaker in the price range for your budget and read as many reviews as you can. See if you can connect with an owner for a listening session. Emerald Physics is just coming out with their new line, and according to Wally they will be an evolution, not a design change. These are of course just my opinions.
If I came from another Planet and I knew a lot about speakers but none of the speaker brands on Planet Earth, where would I start? Let's say there are a 100 good speaker brands and they all have a few speakers in my price range. I feel like I am limited by what speakers brands I know, what the nearby dealer has, what Crutchfield carries, etc.
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