the big one: how do you choose speakers? By what features, data?
I am curious how the experts choose speakers when upgrading? What are the priorities, what would make you stretch your budget?
Based on e.g....
brand/company’s reputation
price
sensitivity
crossover frequency
compatibility with existing amp, etc.?
I don’t have buyer’s remorse for my last pair but I sure made some stupid choices until I got there, that I could have avoided if I had known about this forum sooner.
There are multiple great speaker engineers out there. It would be wise to follow all of them for their pearls of wisdom.
Raymond Cooke- KEF- taught most everyone how to design speakers and almost every one that followed him looked up to him as a leader. He worked for Wharfedale and left to pursue "the science" of loudspeakers (not "the business") . He is credited with a focus on research and scientific principles and has many inventions to his name. He spurred many other careers, such as development of the BBC monitor kit (LS3/5a) that spurred several BBC engineers to open their own manufacturing operations to build this monitor for the BBC under license (Spendor, Harbeth, etc). Raymond sold the company in 1992 to Gold Peak, a Hong Kong based company that owns many other brands. Suprisingly, 1992 was when the KEF driver kit for the LS3-5A was finally discontinued.
Doug Button. He is now with Sonos and did the ERA 300 but also was with EV (Vented drivers) and then JBL (EON) and developed industry changing products at all of them. He is amazing.
Billy Woodman-ATC- developed some of the lowest distortion drivers ever built, developed the mid dome idea and pioneered active systems (impacted the high end pro market).
ilpo Martikainen- Genelec- on a parallel track to Billy and developed active monitors, the first quantity manufactured professional active monitor system. He impacted the worldwide pro market significantly and spurred many copies as "active" became the way to do it.
If cost is a constraint, i would go with the competence level of the speaker engineer. It takes very competent engineering to offer something good at affordable prices. On the other hand, it is much easier to make expensive speakers that sound good. The latter doesn't take too much genius.
On that note, Andrew Jones (Elac, Mofi) Danny Richie (GR Research), etc are names that come to mind. Lately, very reputable brands with serious engineering aptitude like Yamaha, Technics, etc are releasing hifi speakers at relatively affordable prices, i.e., under the 10k price bracket at least. I would go with those.
If cost is no object, TAD, high end JBL, etc come to mind.
Optimizing the acoustics in your room cannot be over- emphasized. Recently we redecorated our family room and the sound of my system changed for the worse. Now we have to cover the floors better, put in fabric shades, bass traps etc.
I think it is so hard to choose speakers because usually when you audition a pair, you can only compare it to what the particular dealer has. How can you compare for example a Sonus Faber vs. Wilson vs. Dynaudio vs. Magico vs Magnapan? Impossible. But ultimately there are mostly great choices out there. It's hard to find speakers from top companies that aren't really good.
For me aesthetics is important. If the speaker is ugly, I'm not sure I would buy them even if they sounded great. If Maggies weren't so bulky and unpleasant to stare at, I would get a pair of 3.7is in a hearbeat. IMO for $8900 they are a sonic steal!!!
There were some amazing speakers like the Quad 57 that truly have a unique sound. But that is always followed by, but of course there is no bass and the high frequency is attenuated… but that midrange is so sweet.
By and large and nearly categorically no. Each decade has produced substantial improvements in sound. But you’ll find some JBL fans… because they were in love with the time they passed around the joint in college… or fell in love with the idea of Voice of the Theater speakers. But, then, that is nostalgia.
@kennyc I had a horrible experience with LSA speakers. They sounded the worst of any speakers I tested and the resale value was less than 50% new. I took me 4 months to sell them at a giant discount - paid $1400, sold at $650.
Years ago when I auditioned the KEF LS50 I also demoed their R700 which to me sounded similar to the LS50 but with more extension. Perhaps a used R700, R900 or the newer models R7 and R9. Maybe buy a used LS50 to see if that’s the direction you’d like to go then sell it to buy a floorstander?
Just from personal experience, in the price range you’re looking at, the KLH Model 5s are a great speaker for the money, and used would easily be affordable. I replaced mine with Harbeths, though I have no intention of letting the Model 5s go, and honestly, they really held their own against the SHL5+ XDs. The Harbeths sound better, but the KLHs certainly don’t have anything to apologize for. That said, the Harbeth P3ESR XD also seem like a really good option, though I don’t have any personal experience with them. I was considering the MoFi Sourcepoints before I bought the KLHs, and would still like to hear them, though I doubt the Harbeths would have to worry about being displaced. Good luck with whatever you decide on!
Hard to go wrong with the much appraised $3.7 Mofi Sourcepoint 10 by the speaker guru Andrew Jones, but may have to wait for used ones to show up on the market.
Hi @dwest1023how does the Dynaudio special 40’s compare to the Buchardt 400? Looks like you have a lot of similar speakers (but may sound very unique each)
For me, I have purchased my speakers based on reputation and read as many reviews about a speaker I am interested in. i rarely by new, so if the speaker has generated a lot of interest, easy to sale if I don’t like it. Since my audio system is in a small room, I am limited to bookshelf speakers. I have serval speakers and amps. The only mistake I made was to purchase a pair of Quad z2 or 1. Worst speaker I ever heard for my ears. My hits, Kef LS50 metas, Dynaudio special 40’s, Buchardt 400 special edition,Goldenear brx, Dali menuets se, NHT c3. All great speakers with different presentations. I don’t know if this is the best way to buy speakers, but it has worked for me.
I´m a motorcycle enthusiast that used to race / ride Enduro. When you buy a motorcycle for that use, you get pretty much 90% of what you need. Set the thing according to your riding skill level / preferences and off you go !.
Going back to audio. Not the same game, when you get bit by the music bug and get into this, you just paid the admission ticket for a journey!!! As several persons have mentioned, this is a long, patience frustrating, economic stressing,disappointment causing experience that gives you some golden nuggets in the process to keep you hooked.
You hear magic at a friend´s or dealer place and you get those speakers home and the oops start !
This is a personnal perception activity so it will depend on the reproduction chain you use to listen. Room, speakers, power, source cables, you name it they matter.
Good luck with your own musical journey... Keep a sane a approach and do not take it too seriously, enjoy. You are not alone. Cheers.
Nobody asked, but a famous reviewer Jay's Iyagi (from Canada) finally took notice of the OGY. I say this because Closer Acoustics is an obscure boutique brand in Poland. He must have read my comments or something. There's no way he would have heard of the OGY otherwise. Yeah, Jay is not the most trustworthy reviewer out there, but I enjoy the validation nonetheless:
I agree with this review wholeheartedly. To paraphrase: The bass is light but very fast and clear. You should use a sub. Midrange and Treble are flawless, impressive regardless of price. Imaging/soundstage are a great deal better than most 2-way bookshelf speakers.
I'm just worried that I'll have to bite the bullet and finally buy a decent tube amplifier to get the most out of these speakers.
I'll confess that it's a bit courageous to order these speakers blind and deal with FedEx international shipping.
IMO many audio buyers allocate an excessive amount of money towards loudspeakers neglecting electronics/source/cables and room treatment. The outdated theory of spending 50%(total system cost) on speakers was created by the industry to keep one upgrading(unhappy) electronics and source components.
that is not to say I don't want (to try) another amp but it's definitely not my bottleneck. My current speakers are very musical, but a bit muddy and have too much bass at the expense of the midrange. Which is probably by design, for this price range and components, it's giving the listener a lot of bang - literally
Unless one is considering extraordinarily difficult to drive speakers and a requirement to play at extremely loud levels, I would expect 100 watts to be plenty, and, power is not a concern. However, amps are critical to the sound of ANY speaker and quality of whatever watts it delivers matters a lot.
I personally like low-powered tube amps the most, assuming they are used with compatible speakers, because they tend to be lively, engaging (keeps my attention), and at the same time do not sound edgy or hard and brittle. Most high end, high-powered solid state amps are not offensive ((not "grainy" or "harsh" as some tube lovers claim, but, to me, they sound a bit lifeless and unengaging at lower volume levels. I tend to not like most very high-powered tube amps because they have a hardness or "glare" I find a bit annoying in long-term listening sessions.
"I have a 100Watt into 8Ohms amp but my room is small, so that won't matter much."
@grislybutteryes it will very much so. speaker sensitivity and amp power and current capabilities are critical or matching these two components and their working properly, regardless of room shape and size. the speakers and amp are working together no matter what room theyre in.
I'm still trying to figure out what all makes a speaker sound good to me. I can learn to like a lot of speakers, but I have found that when it comes to direct radiators I tend to like a 4" cone midrange, and 3/4" dome tweeter on a minimum baffle. Crossover up around 3500 Hz. Small bookshelves like this tend to have a great effect on me, often better than 2 ways with larger woofers, even though I can hear improved bass extension and lower distortion. Just add woofers/ subs to the little speaker and it's great! It's something about the dispersion characteristics of the smaller woofer and tweeter I suppose.
For horns, I like full horn loading rather than hybrid designs, and smooth dispersion characteristics rather than full exponential loading like a Klipschorn of old. I think some degree of smooth off axis is taken into consideration on most modern horns now days.
In any case, I'm willing to try anything. If it works, it works. But if I were forced to buy without hearing I'd be looking for smooth on and off axis response with high efficiency and relatively easy impedance load. I'd be willing to sacrifice maybe some smoothness in response for better efficiency, so long as it's not too rough. I'm willing to sacrifice absolute impact / loudness for a smooth, natural and detailed sound. I don't like it really loud but I've experienced a sound I prefer more often with higher efficiency speakers.
@grislybutterSpeed Yellow has a little red in it. It glows in the sun. On the road on a sunny day you can see it a light year away.
No! The only Harbeth you are interested in is the P3ESR XD. The small enclosure is almost like having no enclosure at all. Most enclosures including the larger Harbeths are musical instruments, they make their own sound. The P3ESR XD is the closest you can come to a Quad Model 57 and maintain your sanity. Do not let it's size fool you. The limiting factor for most speakers is the tweeter and the P3 has as tough a tweeter as any speaker. It only problem is handling bass which it doesn't. Two subwoofers are mandatory for the best performance, not by adding bass but by taking it away from those little woofers letting them be what they really are which is midrange drivers. That can be done down the line. Two of the little KEF Balanced Force subs make an excellent match.
@grislybutterIf you’re gonna spend $2k on small bookshelf speakers, you may as well give the OGY a shot. I’m still amazed by them to this day. They just can’t outperform their size and have bass as deep as full range towers (like the KEF LS60). But the magic is truly there. And it sounds even better when you upgrade amps. I went from a Tripath chip amp, to a cheap vintage Continental Edison A/B amp to a Creek Audio 4240. It just keeps getting better.
If you can find a pair to audition I recently listened to the Vienna Acoustic Haydn Grand monitors. They were sitting next to a pair of $13,000 floor standers that I thought were actually playing when I entered the room... Very dynamic and room filling with a good touch of warmth. Retail can be below $2,000 I was told.
I am very impressed. I 100% agree with you, the P3ESR XD might just work its magic. You are a genius. (Now, about the 911, I question your color choice... but I will let it slide)
My favored brands, in addition to Harbeth, in the 2K used price range:
KHL
Buchardt
Amphion
Q
Revival (no used, yet)
I wonder about Zu, may be too big for my small space.
I have to say: Harbeths are so ugly, they are almost pretty.
Hawthorne has a pair of Harbeth Compact 7ES3 for $2500
The only measurements that I find of any value is the impedance the phase angle. A flat impedance curve with minimal phase shift makes for a very easy load, opening up all kind of opportunities with amplification (think single ended triods for example). A impedance curve that has lots of low drops and especially when combined with significant phase shift is much more difficult and requires an amp that can handle this (think old Krell or current Gryphon amps).
Then the sensitive comes into play. A very easy load with high sensitive (Zu Audio for example) makes it a perfect match to low power amps and as a matter of fact (and personal experience) might not work well with a high power amp (in my case, the volume control of the integrated amp was simply too sensitive to either it was too loud and one click lower and it wasn't loud enough). Low sensitive combined with a difficult load and you will need a monster of an amp with lots of power, but even more so lots of current.
1. Have I heard it and like it, with amplification I’m familiar with?
2. Looks, do I think it looks good?
3. Porting and placement, where will it (can it) go?
4. Specs last for me.
I have worried in the past about recommended watts/RMS before regarding speakers but haven’t been disappointed when I’ve kinda pushed the limits of a few speakers I have.
If imaging is your priority and with your situation there is only one way to go, The Harbeth P3ESR XD. Put them on stands exactly where yours are now and enjoy. Later you can add two subwoofers to the mix with a two way crossover. This lowers distortion in the little woofers of the P3 and raises headroom to an astonishing level. Close your eyes and you could easily imagine you are listening to a Magico or Wilson loudspeaker! Not Kidding!
room is 15x12 one corner is open but seems to be ok
I like sweet vocals, not a lot of bass, clarity, details but not too analytical, warm sound
Imaging is preferable, my current speakers are 4 feet from back wall, 3 feet from the side, I am sitting 5 feet from the speakers. I am wearing a yellow T-shirt :)
@grislybutter, If you want to get serious I need to know how much you are willing to spend, the size and layout of your listening room and what kind of music you like.
start with budget. best thing used within that budget. then i find discussion about "best speakers under ..." and "best vintage speakers under" i see what comes up. i exhaust all such discussions on AK, paying close attention to folks whove owned and heard everything, those with the most experience in the neck of the woods im wandering.
then i head over to steve hoffman. i also look everything up on hifi shark and hifi engine. i find listings and ask why are you selling? i look at what theyre upgrading to. something totally different in the same price range? something similar but much better performance but costs less? downsizing? something 3x as expensive? my list narrows. i talk to friends like david halford at halford loudspeakers. i narrow it down some more and choose by driving distance.
coupla years ago had my heard set on JBL L112. none within driving distance. eventually some L150 within driving distance popped up. L112 are $1200 speakers, and L150 are $1500 speakers. i was prepared to pay $1200 for mint L112. but there were imperfections and minor damage, making these $1200 speakers. seller was very compliant about showing me drivers and imperfections. we met somewhere i could demo them. paid and drove em with me to get a marantz.
i no longer want the L112. i think theyre beautiful, really cool-looking, but ive learned that im happier with what i have than with my first choice, but its a win-win situation either way. if theres 3 things id be happy with one of em is probably easier to get my hands on than the other two. i go home with what i want either way.
i do the same thing with all components. my master "interested/curious" list of tube phono amps was 2 pages of cramped writing, my ss list a half page. decidd my endgame was tavish adagio. that took a while, not just becuse of expense but because people werent selling their tavish adagio. after a good wait, i bought it during a recent wave of upgradeitis.
im near my endgame system, like...really near. i have only more thing i want to buy --van alstine fet valve 600r--and then i start modding and building salvage. im thrilled. cant wait.
First I ask if the speaker under consideration has a sensitivity well above 100dB/2.83V/1m. If so then I ask if it is fully horn loaded including the deep bass well down into the low twenties. If so then I ask how it is better than my present DIY triamplified horn system.
After living with good horns for the last eighteen years I can't imagine even considering direct radiator speakers,
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